Star Trek Fest - Star Trek VI The Undiscovered Country

Welcome back midnight viewers to Star Trek vez. I'm Father Malone with me journeying through the galaxies? Is that practice out there? It's HP, HP. How you doing, brother, I'm doing great.

I'm so happy that we've put aside Shaka ree Is in the rear view mirror, Father Malone. We don't have to worry about cyboch or any non cannon relatives of Spock or Kirk or even Sam Kirk. I think we're it's just nice to be back where we belong, with Nicholas Meyer and the good graces of Star. Trek, Nicholas Meyer and the crew of the Enterprise all properly getting there. Do it would seem, oh my god, we're talking about Star Trek six, The Undiscovered Country, the original title of Star Trek two.

For Nicholas Myers. If he grabs onto something, he's never gonna let it go, even if he has to change the entire fucking meaning of that, because the Undiscovered Country, of course, it is death, which is appropriate when you're talking about Spock dying. Less so when we're talking about the bridge to peace, which is what this plot is about. This movie was released on December sixth, nineteen ninety one, one week earlier than originally planned, so they didn't have to fight off Hook with a bunch of thirty million dollars pulled in gross worldwide ninety six million dollars, I'm sure, leading everyone to think maybe we should make another one. Thank god they didn't star Trek six Undiscovered Country HP.

Was this your first time watching it? Absolutely not. I saw this in the movies, maybe twice following alone. I'm not exactly sure, but I did see it in its original run, and yeah, that should give you some slight clue as to how I felt about it, the fact that I saw it the times in the theater. I tend to think of this as one of the very first movies I saw when I had moved to California, because I had moved in September of ninety one, and I'm way off.

I looked at the list of movies released in nineteen ninety one, and I had seen dozens of movies in California before this one. I remember it specifically, though, because, if you remember, not too long before the film was released, Gene Roddenberry died. In fact, he died three days after seeing the first cut of the film, and I was living in a dorm room in the University of Southern California and somebody had covered their entire door with a tribute to the Great Bird of the Galaxy and just written an entire door length essay on what Gene Roddenberry meant to them. Live long and prosper, Great Bird of the Galaxy. Hey, yay, listen.

Roddenberry had some thoughts on this movie, like he did in all the movies, and you know what he sure did in this case. I think he was actually right, and Nicholas Meyer agrees. But we'll get there. The production story here, it's the simplest of any of them, really. Leonard Nimoy has an idea for a sixth movie.

They're looking to put this to bed because the twenty fifth anniversary of Star Trek is coming up in nineteen ninety one, and they figure they can capitalize on that, get everyone back together, finally finish the series in style, as opposed to limping along like they did at the end of Star Trek five. Leonard Nimoy comes up with the idea of the Cold War the Berlin Wall Gorbachev gore Khan plot line is sent to direct the movie until he's reminded Shatner is probably going to freak out if that happens, and so they rehire Nicholas Meyer. And it was the right decision. I was glad that he came back to Helm what is ostensibly the final movie in the original series group of films. I'm of two minds of this movie.

Now, I remembered really enjoying it, and this time not a whole hell of a lot. Honestly, there are character scenes in this movie that are my favorite moments of character in the entire series. We'll get there. What is the plot line here. HP, As you said, this is it's an allegory for the end of the Cold War.

It's what happens is there's a disaster in Klingon and the Klingon sort of world. The moon that's their main source of energy blows up because of over mining and insufficient safety precautions. This happens at the very beginning of the movie, and we're treated to. The We're treated to the industrial light and magic is back doing the effects in this movie, thank god. And when Praxice the moon explodes, it sends off this very visible blue, almost liquid looking shockwave that we would see eventually again in Star Wars, and now everything that blows up will send out this shockwave because it first appeared here.

That effect is called the Praxis effect. It's great. So the Kingon Empire has effectively fifty earth years left in it. So in a historic bid for peace, Spock arranges for there to be a peace conference between the Klingons and the Federation. This is going to effectively end eighty years of hostility between the two cultures.

But there are some elements within we'll find out, within the Federation and elsewhere that don't want this to happen because and in fact, Kirk is one of the most vocal opponents because of obviously his history with the Klingons, having killed his son on all of the conflict in the original series and so forth. So it's there's I'm simplifying it. There's a lot more to that I won't go into. We'll get into it, but it's effectively about the efforts to make peace between the Klingons and the Federation. And the desperation with those fucking old school morons trying to keep everything the way it is.

How dare you in the face of progress We've got to tear this Berlin wall down, Gorbachev, Glinkin put them together Gorkin. Which I did not realize until the research for this very podcasting alone. Let's so you know what, Let's talk that opening scene though, when Practice explodes were treated to a the first appearance of Captain Hikaru Sulu, captain of the USS Excelsior. What do you think of this? I loved it at the time, but now all these years later, having understood better all the difficulties that that George ta Kay and all the other supporting players had with Shatner at all, it was I had actually, frankly, I had chills at times.

I was so happy to see Sulu finally reaching the Captain ship. He's the captain of the Excelsior, the ship that gets swept up in the practice wave, and it's the first ship to actually note what is happening, what has happened to the moon? And Ulu pops up a couple of times. He's got some very rousing bits in this movie, which we'll get into. I loved it.

It's long overdue, obviously for reasons we've talked about in previous episodes, but it's fair I loved it. I loved seeing Sulu up there in the captain chair. I did too. I just felt like he was given short shrift by giving him the Excelsior. I think they should have given him an even better ship, but that would have required production budget being expended, and they already had the Excelsior sitting around, so they threw it in there.

I do love the scene as well. It was a nice surprise to start with Sulu at the helm of a starship instead of the moldy old Kirk. I was pleased to recall that he was not ineffectual. It wasn't just the sort of a token gesture to the actor to make him the captain. He's got some great scenes where he really gets to be a badass captain in his own right.

I love it. Should we notify Starfleet? Are you kidding? Are you kidding? Yeah?

What are we doing here? That's a good line. That's a good opening line for our characters as they wander in. Originally, the original conception was that they were going to have to go get everybody by the way. They were going to have this scene with Kirk, Spock and Starfleet, and then Kirk was going to have to go pick up everybody and bring them along.

Which would have been interesting. I'm not a fan of needless exposition, and we get a lot of that in this opening, because it's what Starfleet has called, this meeting of all of the relevant personnel to talk about what's happening with the Klingling Empire. And as they're walking in, they're all expositioning all the like ahuras, like I don't know why I'm here. I'm supposed to deliver a lecture on blah blah blah, and I'm supposed to be I didn't. It's like, I get it.

We're caught up with these characters. We know they've got lives outside of the Enterprise. I thought that there's things like that, little nagging things that still irritate me. Yeah, those movies kind of rife with them. Actually.

Yeah. Also, all the technology is all still analog. It's very weird, like people are bringing in briefcases and taking out file folders and stuff. There's a deleted scene where Renee Auberjonois plots out a plan using a note giant notepad that like you flip up and you like rite on a giant marker, like you play fucking win a pictionary on. I think he has one of those telescoping pointers and he's like, we will do this and then we will go here.

That is you're right, although I have to say the actual screens on the Enterprise, I believe this is the first movie where they're actually all real computer generated pictures and animations. I thought that part of it looked great, but you're right. There's always some weird quasi analog twist to the meetings and the conferences that they have. It was in Star Trek two at one point when Kirk and Spock are talking together on the Enterprise, they walk past a sign that says like authorized personnel only, And it's the kind of sign you would see at a conference center, like just now, like just a metal pole sitting there, like the no smoking sign on the Enterprise, Like what is happening here? Nick?

I almost feel like it's a game where he's trying to slip these little anachronisms in or something. I don't know. Maybe he's got like a Flintstone's brain where he wants to see what an the insyncorator would look like it's a pig under there, or the bird playing the fucking phonograph. I don't know. I was trying to see where you were going with that flintstone bit, but you're right.

The insyncorator is like a pelican or something underneath the sick. Sorry that just caught me off guard. But beyond these are very specific details that we're teasing out. This isn't a major issue for me, but on rewatch, these are the things that kind of got on my skin a little bit. Let's get to the meat of the fucking scene, which is Spock has volunteered the Enterprise crew to go to going to the edge of the Romulant neutral zone to meet them there and then escort them back to Earth for peace.

Stocks Kirk is not happy about, and obviously the debate is going on amongst the members of Starfleet, like while everyone is still in the meeting that there's hardcore cold warriors who were like, we can't trust them, we got to kill them, like let's attack them. Now. Kirk is in the middle because he's always been an explorer first, but now he's so freighted with vengeance in his heart towards the Klingon Empire that we get that line, the let them die line, Jim, they're dying. Let them die. The line that Shatner like complained that he showed a moment of regret afterwards, and Nicholas Meyer cut that out.

And I'm so glad Nicholas Meyer cut that out. He doesn't need the regret there. He's had a fucking tough time with the Klingons over the years, and it. Makes his eventual position softening that much more impactful because he is so hard lined against making any sort of bartering, any sort of piece with the Klingons. And in fact, when these hard line, sort of cold warriors are saying, no, we need to bring the Klingons to their knees then we can dictate terms, Kirk is very plain.

He says, you know what, I'm inclined to agree with Admiral Cartright on this. I think it's it's a scary thing to because effectively fearful for a lot of reasons, but not the least of which is you're inviting one of the Federation's worst enemies, a notoriously combative culture, into their right where they live. It's a scary thing. Not only that, though, but there is some concern that with the end of hostilities between the Klingons and the Federation. Starfleet may end up being mothballed.

They may no longer be a real military arm of the Federation. So I think that's part of what's got these cold warriors concerned is like what place do I have in this new frontier? Which I always found a silly argument because as far as we were concerned as Star Trek fans up until this point, Starfleet was always an exploratory for us and a military as a default, we need to be protected. Obviously, sometimes a vedure shows up, but at the same time, Starfleet is not a military organization. But I do like the fact that Spock vol In tears Kirk and the Enterprise because that sends the biggest message about this whole piece process is this is how much we're committed to this.

We are going to send your greatest enemy, Kirk, who the Klingons have tried many times to kill him over the course of the movies and the TV show, And it's telling that they're sending their greatest enemy to or help brokeer peace between the two cultures. And I think that's something that's logical. I think from Spock's perspective that only makes sense. Unfortunately, he fails to take into account the feelings that Kirk has. It's the classic like logic versus emotion.

He takes all the emotion out of it. But that is the basis of all of Kirk's apprehension, is the emotion around his son being murdered and all that goes with that. And the scene that follows when everyone has cleared the chamber and it's just Kirk and Spock and Kirk is actually confronting him. That scene between those two characters my favorite interaction between Kirk and Spock out of any of the media. Honestly, they seem so familiar and real to me.

There you can feel the history with these two guys and the absolute betrayal that Shatner feels at the hands of Spock and Spock are realizing it now for the first time. It's pretty remarkable. It is. I loved it, but I don't think it can compete with the death scene in Star Trek two. That still gets to me, between Kirk and Spock as Spock is dying, that's obviously the gold standard.

But this is good because we rarely see Kirk and Spock at loggerheads with each other Spock is convinced that he's right and Kirk is convinced that he's right, and there's no meeting in the middle. It's very difficult for both of them. You know what orders or orders? Baby, you're part of Starfleet. You wanted to be a captain.

You could have been an admiral and said, no, fuck you, I'm not going out there. Unfortunately, you're going out there, going, oh, going out to the Romulan neutral zone. In the last film, we also went to the Rommeland Neutral zone. It's just that nobody making that film new that. It leads me to believe that maybe Star Trek five is non canon.

If you will like it, everyone just agrees to not acknowledge it anymore. Rodenberg said it was apocryphal. I'm agreeing with him. I agree to wholeheartedly. Let's talk.

Let's talk, Valarius, shall we sure, let's talk. I had no real problem with Kim Cattrell as Valarius, I thought, are you giving a very skeptical look to me? Following alone with what speak? What kind of problems do you have with Kim Katrell slash Valarius? I have no problem with Kim catral I thought, she's doing a really good job with the characterized written.

Characterized written, however, is a huge fucking problem. First of all, it's obviously Savag and it should have been, and apparently that was floated and that was Nicholas Meyer's intention, and the brass at the top said, no, you're not doing that. We're not going to have this already established character suddenly turned bad. Why not. I don't know what Savage.

I don't know what Savig's personal political beliefs are. We met her for two fucking scenes and two fucking movies. And that's It's bs that argument because Cartwright, Admiral Cartwright, was in Star Trek four. He's an established character who we have no reason to believe that he would be involved in this sort of assassination plot that we get into. But why is it.

Okay for him to go bad? But it's not okay for Savag? Not that I would have enjoyed seeing Savag, a character that I really enjoyed, and I really liked Robin Curtis's performance, So I get what you're saying. And it does smack of a rewrite where it's, hey, it's not Savag, let's make Hilaris it's just another character who happens to be a Vulcan. But that's fine, Okay, I get along with it.

Yeah, yeah, I can tell you what along with They rewrote that character into this new character. However, they didn't really change anything because she still spocks Protege. So they're giving the history that was already there with Savag, except it's Kim Catrall, who's in her mid to late thirties and doesn't seem like she's rush from the Academy, which is how she's portrayed, like she's all by the book and oh, sir, may I remind you of Starfleet cod blah blah blah, you know what I mean, Like she's portrayed to be like an eighteen year old kid fresh out of the Academy, and instead it's Kim Cattrall, a full woman who seems to have maybe served on other starships over time, you know what I mean. Like there's a level of naivete that were supposed to that's supposed to be baked in at the beginning that is just not present.

I can see that. But the other thing that I want to bring to bear on this argument is it wasn't filmed This was the original intent in Star Trek four. In Star Trek three was that Savag was supposed to actually have had sex with Spock when they were on the Genesis planet and he was going through pondfar. They were supposed to be romantically, if you will, involve, and she was supposed to actually bear Spock's child. Not again that I was not filmed, and it wasn't really ever spoken over brought up until that.

Do you remember that to that sort of video they made about a year ago? It was like, what was the name of it? Some effects company did like basically a tribute video and a deep faked Shatner and Spot and they brought Robert Curtis And there's a scene in that where, without saying anything, she introduces Kirk to Spock's son. This is a long way of saying, I'm not sure that having her be one of the saboteurs would have worked had it really been understood that she was pregnant with Spock's child or had born Spock's child. Next Generation is on the air.

There's no way they're getting another movie. Might as well just throw the whole kitchen sink in there. Yeah, Man, give us characters that we were established. We talked about ruge reappearing in this movie instead of who we get and who do we get? Oh, yeah, we get we get General Chang as portrayed by Christopher Plummer, who I want to say up front, we love Christopher Plumber.

He's fantastic. I just watched that. I just watched Knives Out again for the fourth or fifth time, and I love him in that. I love him and everything else I've seen him, and I do not love him here why. He just seems too much of an English actor who's projecting and acting very theatrically.

It's like having Ian McKellan be a Klingon. It just doesn't really work. They're all fantastic actors, they just don't make good Klingons. And maybe part of it is how it's written. A big part of it is probably how it's written.

But it's I know where they're going with it. He's there to be hammy and chew the scenery till there's nothing left but on rewatch. That's one of the things I did not enjoy in this movie. What did you think of Christopher Plumber as Chang? Did you know that William Shanner understudied Christopher Plummer for the role of King Lear, and in fact went on as King Lear.

The first knife because Christopher Plumber was ill and got raves and then threw it in Christopher plumer face, causing Christopher Plumber to give a performance that he credits as the greatest of his entire career. All spurred on from the jealousy that Shatner got to play it first and got accolades. Ah actors love it. Now, having said that, I agree with you. If this is on paper, probably pretty cool.

In practice not so cool because just what you said, these guys don't seem like Klingons. David Warner doesn't seem like a Klingon. His daughter doesn't seem like a Klingon. Nobody seems like Klingons in this movie. They all just seem like dudes with makeup on.

But I will say this though, and you can get back to your point, but I want to interject here. I will say the best thing about them is the costuming. Yet again, they hit it out of the park with the costuming. Father alone, everything is stitched, puffy, big shoulders. I thought it was a little too gore tex this time.

I thought, looking at Chang's puffy outfit made me think of a carnival ride. I loved it because it didn't it didn't look cheap to me. I just maybe it's a little too over the top and much like a caricature of a Klingon outfit. But I just loved it. It looked imposing in a little silly and fun.

I just thought it really set them apart from all the other actors. I liked the design, it was just the materials I had problems with. I do love a bolted onto your skull eyepatch. However, apparently each of the screws has the Klingon symbol on the head. I'm sure.

Let me ask, let's play this game for a minute. Who would you have preferred in that part? Let's say it's been rewritten slightly so it's not quite as flowery with the language. Who would you have wanted to be General. Chang nineteen ninety one.

Bob Hoskins, Ooh, that's. An interesting because he's short, and that would have made he could have done something with that if he could have leaned on his range a little bit and seemed scarier interesting. Go to toe with William Shanner Bob Hoskins would have fuck that man up right. Sure, Oh that's a good one. I can't believe you picked Bob Hoskins out of thin air.

It's a good one. What if I'm reaching a little bit? But what if what about somebody like Christopher Walking? Yeah? Maybe, but he would have made it too weird.

But I would be. Like, this is an alien and we don't know how aliens are, and then he would just start doing weird shit and nobody would rain him in. But he would have given you the unexpected, which is I think what Christopher Lloyd gave you as Kruge. I will agree with you that when it came to reciting Shakespeare, it wouldn't have come off as hammy. It would have come off as threatening.

I just think he's one of the he especially at that time when we're talking like his second act as as an actor, let's say, like pulp fiction and true Romance and all that, he has the ability to come off as charming but on a dime, switch up and become like the scariest motherfucker you've ever seen. I think that would have been great for that character. Somebody who maybe in a diplomatic setting can roll with it. But underneath that is a ferocious warrior who will do whatever it takes to defend his culture. Who it actually should have been sliced alone.

Oooh, that's not bad, honestly. I just sorry, I'm sorry. Who are you gonna say? He's in the movie? Are John Shuck?

Yeah? Yeah, good call. Obviously he's right there. He's already a stentorian orator, like he's given us that version of Klingon, So this sort of bombastic theatrical Klingon is already baked into him. My only reservation there is that he it seems like he's made to be more of an academic, being an ambassador.

He's more about diplomacy. I absolutely agree, But you also could have written his character because he is the fiercest fighter for the Klingon home world. You know what's funny, HP, I thought he was one of the conspirators. I was actually a little shocked to get to the end of this movie and find out he wasn't. What is interesting and you can choose to as aside and he can cut this out because we haven't gotten to the conclusion yet.

But at the end, when there is the climax and they're exposing all the co conspirators. They I think it's I want to say Sulu when he transports down to cam Kiddemer they hold a phaser on John Shuck's character as if he's a conspirator, and that was my first reaction was, oh my god, how have I never noticed that he's one of the people in the league with these saboteurs or whatever. But then later you see he's applouting Kirk along with everybody else, so I think he's meant not to be. Maybe it's just them saying, oh, Klingon, let's before we sort this out, let's keep him at bay and we'll figure it out later. But he probably should have been a conspirator, just because he's been so vocal in his enmity of Kirk and his distrust of Kirk and Starfleet.

Are the Federation as a wider sort of organization, Yeah, that is surprising. The fact that he's not a conspirator actually makes me happy now, because if they were going to implicate him, then the only way to do it would be make him chang because he's the character is too good to just be given an off screen plot line where he's working this Conspiracy. He's great. Even the little bit that we see him here. He's probably got about the same amount of time in this as he had in Star Trek four, but he's so Look, we've made no qualms about our fandom for John Chuck and his all of the things that we've seen him, and we've loved him in.

He's so legitimately good as this Klingon Ambassador. I can't say enough good things about him, and he's fantastic here too. Do you know how he got the role of the. K Klingon Ambassador. I don't know specifically, but we've talked about the fact that I belie leave.

He married Leonard ne Mooy's ex wife. Eventually, Yeah, he did. Yeah. At the point that Star Trek four was being made, he went in to read, just just an actor, but obviously knew Nimoy before, and he said he came in, he said hi Leonard, and Leonard Neimoy said, oh, hi John. Oh this is not going to work out, was the first thing he said to him.

And he said, I'm here, let me read and so he read it and he said, yeah, it's great, but we're not going to use you. And he said, could you tell me why, and he said, the character is actually much older. You're too young to play this part. And there was a sketch of the ambassador on Leonard Nemoy's desk in the outfit, but with a giant white beard, and John Schuck said, is that him? And Nemoy said yeah, And John Shuck said, if you put a ten year old in that outfit, he would be appropriate age wise, and then he got the part, we love John Shuck HP.

Oh no, it's time for a shock off. Oh see that. I was afraid you'd say that, because I don't he doesn't have any real memorable lines this. I don't know that I can quote him. I've got one.

I don't here. You give me your best shuck and I'll I'll give you. I'll give you a one to ten. I'll judge your Olympic style. May I remind you that he and Dunkan McCoy boarded Kronos one on their own free will.

None of these facts are in dispute, mister president. That's a nine. Oh no, that's a six. That's a six. I can't get that.

I can't get John Schuck's tambur. There's just something under there. It's this. That's how I think we even said this last go around. That is how you do Shakespearean oration, theatrical oration in a Star Trek movie, because it's patently ridiculous.

He's in all this makeup, He's in this crazy ornamental gown with all the frills and everything. But he is He's imperious and he means business and he I just I love the care. He believes everything he's saying, and you can tell there's real commitment there. He had input on that fantastic outfit. By the way, his main topic of concerns was the cape.

If it's too heavy, it'll pull you over. If it's too long, you will trip on it. And this is somebody who has maybe five minutes of screen time. Fantastic. Incidentally, George to Kay, upon seeing him in the cape, said, Sulu needs a cape.

He really coveted that cape. It's not surprising he was a swashbuckler in the original series. I think he would appreciate a nice cape. And what's the next scene? Where are we?

Have we gotten to the Nutral zone? Have we met? Gor Khan played by David Warner completely wasted in this part. The most leaden performance I've ever seen. I call it reserved would be He's not like a chunk of granite.

He really is. I'm forced to agree with you. I didn't like him in Star Trek five, but I really didn't like anything about that movie. And I can't even say with a straight face that he's better in this because he just doesn't do much like you said he's He really is just a lump of clay, just sitting at this table later to be assassinated on the Klingon ship. Yeah, he's I don't really understand why they brought him back for this.

It didn't really make a lot of sense. He didn't add much to the character. They could have had anybody play the Chancellor. Other than the relationship between Nicholas Meyer and David Warner. He was Jack the Ripper and time after time for Nicholas Meyer back in the day.

Obviously, he likes to work with the people he wants to work with, but at the same time, the original choice was Jack Palance. He might have been a little too over the top for. Me, one thousand percent better. I think he would have been better even if he had been if he hadn't swung it out at all. If Nicholas Meyer had sat on him and just said I want you to be the quiet, stayed diplomat, he would have been still terrifying because it's Jack Palance.

To be honest, I never felt the same way about Jack Palance after seeing him do the push ups on the Academy Award stage. You remember that there was. What are you talking about? Have you seen Shane pick up the gun? Pick it up?

I'm sorry, an old. Man did one handed push ups on stage. Now he's reputation in your mind is he's You can't take him seriously in anything ever? Again a little bit, a little bit. It's not his faultness, Oh it is.

She is his fault because he's the one who decided to do that little stunt. But I'm just trying. I'm trying to think now, who would have been a better choice for gor Con? You say Jack, is it Palance or Polance? Palance?

I think it's Palance. He because he did Ripley's believe it or not, Jack Palance. Believe it that's right or not or not? He would have been a great at Gorcon. That's not my choice.

That was Nicholas Meyer's original choice. Who was the member in Amazon Women on the Moon the bullshit or not? Was it Henry what's his name, Pry Silva? Henry Silva would have been a good gor Con. Yeah, but he's already tainted with Buck Rogers.

What was he in Buck Rogers? In the pilot for Buck Rogers? He was our Queen Ardalla's most trusted adviser. Are you serious? Yeah, you're getting on my case for bringing up the Academy Award thing and you're talking about Rogers.

I'm saying that he'd already played a similar role. I'm not saying I can't take him seriously as an actor because I once saw him pick his nose. That's fair, that's fair. Anyway, he was whatever he was there. He really is only a means to an end.

The character doesn't do much except die and set the course of the assassination plot in motion. They might as well have not even met him. He should have just stayed on the Klingon cruiser and Chang was their envoy. Could have been. Yeah.

We The only time we ever really see him do anything is so Kirk has the idea to receive the delegation from the Klingons and have them present at like effectively a diplomatic dinner between the two on the Enterprise, and it's nothing goes right. There's a lot of aveiled prejudice and not so veiled prejudice going back and forth on both sides of. The table, shocking and liu shocking coming from the Starfleet crew all of a sudden, and now their hatred of the Klingons obviously is deep seated. This is their twenty seventh year of bo at the Enterprise, and they've been tangling with the Klingons for at least that long, so their attitude can be forgiven. But do you think the reaction at the time, or at least my reaction at the time, or maybe I'm asking myself a questionaire.

We were a couple of years into Next Generation by now and Wharf we had a cling on the bridge of the Enterprise, so we were well used to the idea that Klingons and humans can get along as a fan of both series and movies and the new show, like, I think that ended up being more impactful than Nicholas Meyer. You've had even intended, Do you mean the the enmity, Yes, you had the smell to get the smell of them and like would you want one dating your daughter? Look, who's guess who's coming to dinner? Like, oh my god, did you see the way they eat? Yeah, I was a little shocking, and even now was shocking because we're used to thinking of the start of the crew of the Enterprise as being very virtuous and open minded.

This is a let's I forget, this is the future where everything they don't even have money anymore. Everything is pleasant to nice and happy. But so this is really our first, one of our first indications that maybe maybe they still have these vestiges of prejudice and hatred, that they may even have time I may even have a hard time admitting it to themselves a little bit. But yeah, it was kind of shocking at the time. I think you're right, but totally appropriate.

Oh absolutely, they were reflective of their times. And as much as this is a utopian society that Roddenberry has conjured up here, like the fact is the Klingons have been attempting to fucking kill Federation people for decades. At this point, you could come up with any number of modern day equivalents. Just pick your historically warring factions in the world. I'm not going to name anything, because I don't want to get into that too much.

But think of two warring cultures that are forced to sit down at a table and break bread and try to make sense of a peace initiative, and it's not hard to see the same thing happening in real life, where the decades and decades of mistrust and violence and bloodshed and things happening, and people seeing comrades die in battles. You can't just throw that away in the snap of a finger and say, Okay, now they're going to sit down and everything's going to be nice. That actually is I thought that was pretty true to life, that they have this dinner and everything goes wrong. They can't really just relax with each other because there's too much history to really get into that. Shatner's fantastic in this scene.

I gave Shatner a real kicking in the last movie, but I think he's great beginning to end here this scene, in particular, because we're seeing Kirk trying to hold it together, trying to just keep quiet. I would not be surprised if Kirk had come on and said I took three value before Kirk has gone to a happy place just to deal with the situation he's found himself in. Remember, Valerius suggests to him that they stalk the dinner with romulan Ale, and I think that's where this sort of tranquilized edge comes into this. When they're getting off the transporter, pag Kirk is already this sort of muted version, muted version of himself. Sure, and I agree with you.

It's very understated, isn't the word. But it's for someone that we've gotten used to the parody of William Shatner being very loud and with a funny cadence to his lines, which I don't necessarily think is that true in real life the stuff that he does here, it's not very it's very understated, and it's very it's not in your face. Oftentimes you're just seeing him in the background with this look on his face, like, Lord, please get me through the next hour and a half. I don't know how I'm gonna do it, but just get me through this and I will deal with it later. Because let's not forget these are the people that killed his son, and he brings that up a lot in Captain's logs and things.

But if you really stopped and thought about it like, let's you're inviting the people that had a hand in killing your son and you're sitting down to a state dinner with them. I don't know that I could put on a happy face and deal with it no matter what my duty called for. I think I would just be just getting through it, gritting my teeth as best I could do. You know, the span of time from Star Trek the motion picture until now for these characters. He's I think he does say they've been serving for what twenty nine years?

Twenty six years, isn't that what he says, So let's call it twenty six years. That numbers in my head for some reason. Twenty six years. So twenty six years since the original series. Now, how long from the beginning of the original series was the original the motion picture set?

That's the question we have to answer. I know the number from motion picture to Undiscovered Country is a twenty year period, and. I was going to say sixteen years, so I wasn't far off. So it's six. So we get the five year mission, one year off motion picture, a span of years until until Wrath of Khan, and then there's a number of years in between Star Trek five in this movie I think three to five or something.

This being the culmination ultimately of the original series movies and just the story of the original series, if you will. It's important to consider that these characters have been doing this twenty years in the service. Effectively, that's a very long time of twenty six years in the service. So it's not as if they are naive to what these peace talks represent. But I think it's like I said, I think it's very much it's very realistic and very much in character for them to still be mistrustful and maybe a little surprised at their own prejudices inside.

All right, let's get to the assassination shallowy, because this is a big deal when it came out, because we were getting anti gravity and we were gonna get CGI blood, ohmicn CGI effects. It's the future. Looks a little silly now though. Looked a little silly then. Honestly, I think at a time I appreciated the effort, if you will.

I was excited by the fact that you could tell it was CG but it did. It felt like it was pointing the way too cooler and more interesting special effects. But again, I give it's leagues better than anything we saw in Star Trek five. I guess let's just say. That is true.

Look, as computer generated effects are in their infancy here, a lot can be forgiven as far as the rendering of it. What can't be forgiven is the color of the Klingon blood. The only time Klingon blood has shown up this bizarre candy purple color like kings like. Pink, yeah, pink, or like pepto bismol kind of colored. And I don't know if that was an effects consideration or something, but we've seen Klingon blood before and often Klingon blood is red, just like ours.

Well, let's talk about the actual assassination, like the plot, like the not getting into the necessarily details, but what did you think of the actual plot that's put in motion this idea of a Klingon ship that can fire when cloaked, and it stations itself just below the Enterprise, so it looks to all the world like the Enterprise has been firing photon torpedoes at a defenseless Klingon battle cruiser. I love this part. Yeah, I thought it was fantastic because it creates Here's the thing what people may not realize about Nicholas Meyer is that he got his start writing novels about Sherlock Holmes. These were seven percent solution. He would go on, he'd write, actually six more Holmes novels, and he effectively is it's a mystery.

He's a mystery writer. So what we're getting here with this plot and this assassination attempt and the mystery of what happened and how they're going to piece it all together, what we effectively get is Spock becomes Sherlock Holmes trying to solve and he quotes extensively Sherlock Holmes in it, and there's no masking what they're going for here. But I gotta tell you, father moment, I being a big Sherlock Holmes fan, a big mystery fan, I fucking love when it becomes almost a who Done It? On the Enterprise where they're racing against the clock to figure out how the fuck did we shoot torpedoes when we visually accounted for everything? Who got onto the Klingon ship?

How do they murder these Klingons and where are they and how did they conceal their crime? So while we have Kirk dealing in McCoy and we'll talk about what happens to them while they're dealing with what they're dealing with on the enterprise, it's all about Spock putting on his deer stalker cap and trying to unravel the mystery of the assassination. I fucking love. That Spock refers to an ancient ancestor of his and then he quotes Sherlock Holmes. So now does that mean that the fictional character of Spock is related to the fictional character of Charlock Holmes, Or is the human half of Spock related to Arthur Conan Doyle, Or is Spock related to the actual investigator that that Arthur Conan Doyle based Holmes upon.

There's a lot of that weirdness because while they're having dinner, Chang, who's been quoting Shakespeare. He says something to the effect of you you've never heard Shakespeare until you've heard it in the original Klingon. So are we led to believe that William Shakespeare was in fact the Klingon in the Star Trek universe. No, not at all. They're making a joke and gor Khan makes that joke okay, And however, it had been translated into Klingon because he's quoting it in Klingon throughout the film, and now there are actual Shakespeare productions entirely in Klingon Isamicbeth.

Wasn't that the proverb that Spock quotes at the very beginning only Nixon could go to China? Ain't Klingon proverb? Yeah? And it's also now in what pulp not pulp fiction in kill Bill it's the it's the ancient Klingon proverb revenge is a bit dish best so of cold at the beginning of the movie. Yeah, I just love that.

But so, I look, I can appreciate attributing Earth type phrases to the Klingon Empire. It's just that they're also dated and clumsy. I suppose. And maybe they're falling into the same trap that we talked about in Star Trek five, where they're trying to come up with campfire songs, and all they can come up with our old timey camptown races. There's really living in what the twenty second century or twenty third century.

Wherever they are like they're surely there would have been popular music that would have supplanted that decades before, if not hundreds of years before. Spock has a Mark Chagall painting on his wall, on it in his quarters. Why. At one point, Valaris, in order to describe that there is they can engage in sabotage, tells the story of the windmill workers and they're saba, but there's shoes that they would throw into the gears, and that's how we get the word sabotage. You're a Vulcan.

What the fuck do you care about that? She could have related some obscure Vulcan tale of some guy we've never heard of or something. But I obviously they don't want to lose the audience, so they're trying to keep it relatable. Yeah, but you could just say, you know what, we can just relate. We can get into some sabotage.

We don't need the earth history lesson from a Vulcan in the twenty third century. It's just that to me is that's losing the audience, because I'm the fucking audience. I see I again, I'm a broken record. But I didn't mind so much because what Vlaire's is trying to do there is she doesn't just want to say to them, Hey, why don't we just lie to them and pretend that we have problems with the ship. She's trying to lead them down that path without telling them, Hey, just tell them a fucking lie.

Hey, do you know that there were a group of miners on all Taara four who were ordered to engage in this particular type of behavior that they did not agree with, and instead they would come up the works of the things, And that I think is there's a lesson in that instead of I'm I look, how clever I am. I know where the words sabotage came from. Or maybe they're making fun of the fucking tapes that you hear of Shatner correcting that sound engineer about sabotage. I don't say sabotage. I say sabotage if that's what it is.

If it's a fuck you to Shatner, okay, But other than that, whole exchange is completely ridiculous. I like that idea that it is a fuck you to shatter. But nevertheless, so. Wow, don't correct me, HP. It sickens me.

So while this is happening, what we didn't describe is after this all transpires and the ship is fired upon, and these two crew members in gravity boots or mag magnetic boots, they transport over. They love their fucking boots. They love the boots and these fucking movies, right. The boots are the big innovations in both of these movies. This is our technology, This is Q somewhere working in starfleet has created an entire line.

Of boots anyway, I mean, I mean. Q from James Bond, not Q. I thought you not John Delancey, but correct? Whoever the guy was the old guy? So they transport on.

Wasn't Burnson a Q? No? Corbyn Burnston from La Law? Did Corbyn Burnson show up as a QUE? Listeners?

Right? And and answer that did Corbyn Burnson? I have a vague memory of Corbyn Burnston as a member of the Q continua. Why would oh Q on? Okay, I thought you meant Q James Bond Q.

I'm like, why the hell would Corbyn Burnson pop up in an English spy movie. That's bizarre anyway. So, after this has all happened, they're trying to piece together what transpired. McCoy and Kirk decide to transport over to the Klingon Cruiser to offer whatever help they can, and they get there too late. The Chancellor dies effectively in Kirk's arms after McCoy tries heroically to save him, but he as he says to Kirk, I don't even know this guy's anatomy.

What am I supposed? How am I supposed to save him? And they are taken into custody by General Chang because they it's believed that they're behind the plot to assassinate the Chancellor. So McCoy and Kirk to stand trial for the assassination. And while this is happening, Spock is buying time with the Federation trying to unravel this mystery before Kirk and McCoy a die in custody and b the assassins have another go at, an assassination attempt at the rescheduled peace conference.

Yeah, that's it, but they beam over. Okay, the assassination attempt. I would not mind the magnetic boots and using the magnetic boots as the mcguffin that allows us to find our conspirators. Yeah, it's just that everyone acts like magnetic boots are just magic. I will say this when we get to the trial.

This is what marks Wharf's ancestor, who is the defense attorney, effectively for McCoy and Kirk It's what paints him as the worst lawyer in history, because that's the thing that he brings up. He says, if there was no gravity even, how could these men be walking around? And the guy just says they had magnetic boots. It's like, all right, you just fucked up, No attorney. I agree with you.

That is like a stupid thing. But the way the Klingon phrases it is like, I believe they had some sort of magnetic boots, Like what would how could there be such a thing. The funny thing is we see the magnetic boots again in First Contact, do we not? Of course, because they they're walking across the hall of the Enterprise, which, by the way, they would have been doing back in Captain Archer's day. Sure you gotta get out there and fix the fucking ship.

Magnetic boots is a pretty easy solution. So they take Kirk and McCoy to this this trial, and it's an odd courthouse, this Klingon sort of courthouse. It's like a theater in the round, yeah, but it's very narrow and high and circular. They're ringed with Klingons who are like jeering the whole time, getting rowdy about this whole thing. They're all chanting to be or not to be a Klingon.

And Chang is the prosecutor. And like I said, Michael Dorn, actually I thought this was cool at the time. They brought him in to effectively play Wharf's ancestor. I guess it would be what his great grandfather or something he's or maybe grandfather. I don't know his grandfather seventy years.

Yeah, yeah, so he is sympathetic Klingon who's defending McCoy and Kirk during this trial. Great to see him. Fantastic idea. Let's cross it over. We've got to cling on on the Enterprise in the future.

Let's get one here in this movie, and we've already got the guy. Yeah, it was that was I remember at the time going that's really cool because we had had two years of the Next Generation, so I thought it was pretty inspired. When I saw this movie, there was a super trek nerd three rows ahead of me, and when Michael Dorn came on screen, he went, hell, yeah. I can't recover from that One's. There's a worse one later later.

Actually I agree with the I agree with the later one, but we'll get there. One of my favorite moments, by the way, during this trial is at one point McCoy is when he gets yeah, you knew what I was kidding at. So Chang is playing the prosecutor and he says, he asks McCoy, what is your current medical status? And McCoy decides to make a joke and he says, aside from a touch of arthritis, I'd say pretty good. And he laughs to himself and you hear maybe one maybe two lings.

One two, No, you hear a lot of Klingons. They it's a smattering though, it's a smattering of. When McCoy reacts to like he looks around like, hey, that joke really landed. He's doing that because a lot of them are laughing. Because I remember thinking, wow, McCoy's going over really well with the Klingons.

But he makes that joke and let's just call it a smattering of people. Klingons are laughing at the joke. But I'm not calling people who are not calling it a smattering. I'm sorry, sir. There's gifine going on.

There's real applause. He have gone home and said, okay, I got to open with that bit. But he very quickly because It's the reason why I think it's so few is because after that sort of laughter like dies down, like he realizes that he looks at Chang and he realizes that this is actually pretty serious. Should be making jokes, and DeForest Kelly's face falls from his satisfaction at making the joke in the first place. That to me made the whole scene in the court because it's I could see McCoy trying to diffuse things with a little bit of humor but then realizing immediately that this is no laughing matter, like this is serious business.

That's because Chang says, like, oh, you have quite a wit, and he's really menacing there. It's the only time he's really good in this movie. Christopher Plumber is in this scene. Yeah, but Chang, for everything we've said about the character and about Christopher. Name a bad name.

It just sounds Chinese. I don't know why they used it. I don't know why they did it. But he comports himself spectacularly as the prosecutor because what he effected he does is he paints McCoy as being too drunk and incompetent to save the Chancellor, even though we know that he was desperate to see he says. So, he says, I was desperate to save him because he was the last best hope for peace in the galaxy.

But ye oh, he's fantastic. The thing is, the funny thing is, and I know we have a lot to get through in the movie. But as I'm watching the movie and I'm reabsorbing it for the first time in many years, I'm realizing that this is not This is more Spock's movie than it is Kirk's movie. Kirk has his moments, he does the swashbuckling thing when he's on the prison planet and what have you, and he's not ineffectual in any way. But Spock is the one who sets the events, the diplomatic events in motion.

He's the one that puts in the legwork to figure out how the assassination occurred. It really is Spock's story, and that didn't occur to me until I watched it this last time. He put the events in motion. I think it was the ambassador from Klingon, who, upon advice from the previous President of the Federation after the events of Star Trek four, said hey, maybe we should start talking about peace. That all happened, but it all happened in the books, so never mind.

Ok yeah, the canonical nature of that is maybe under a little bit of a dispute, but HP, but nevertheless HP. Yes, yes, camarag Yes, that is the Klingon ambassador's name. That is John Shuck's name in this I thought I looked at the credit list, I thought it just said Klingon ambassador. That is true. In all of the rest of the all of the rest of the media, he has been named Camarrog.

You can find multiple versions of it in various novels and comic books and other other mentions of him. So he's a known quantity in the books. He's not just some guy. Okay, there's real history to him. As I like I was telling you there, that plot line exists where the Federation president says we should start talking peace, and he's the He starts the peace negotiations, he starts talking to the Klingon government about a possibility of a piece thing, and then when practice happens, he's because he had already laid that groundwork.

That's why they're able to get in touch with Spock and start getting things in motion. When I say in motion, I don't mean this historical peace process that's happened before Practice. He's the one who volunteered Kirk and the Enterprise. He's the one who's brokering these peace talks after the disaster on Practice. Oh, I know, I just want to show off my vast knowledge of Ambassador camarag.

And you did so ensign good job. But it was like a surprising revelation to me because we're so used, especially in Star Trek five, we're used to Kirk slash Shatner making himself the focal point of all of the heroism and of all of the crucial events of the movie, that it was refreshing to see Shatner. I don't know that it was a conscious effort to back seat him a little bit, because he's got a lot to do, but. Well, the thing doesn't it doesn't seem like it's a backseat to him. And when we're on his plot line, it is about Kirk and nobody else.

If he's on screen, we're dealing with just him in his storyline. So it's easy, I'm sure, for Shatting it to feel like it was his movie. It's just that it's also so well balanced throughout the rest of it that it feels like, hey, everyone's getting there to do here. For the first time, I think this movie actually achieves the perfect balance of everyone involved. It does because they're all pitching in on the enterprise to figure out to unravel this mystery.

And you have McCoy who's partnered up with Kirk on the prison planet that they're sent to to because what effectively happens is they table the death penalty, so they have no choice but to basically sentence them to life on a place called Rura Pente, which is a di lithium mine where it's notoriously dangerous and hazardous and all this kind of People don't leave. They never leave. They die working on Rura Pente. So they're there, and Spock's got to figure out how to unravel the mystery and Dave Kirk and McCoy and figure out where the next peace conference is going to be because he knows there's going to be another assassination attempt. So really a lot of there's a lot more pressure and a lot more on Spock's plate, I would say than.

Kirk, although when you look at it, Kirk actually accomplishes his mission and Spock fails on every count. How do you figure Stock finds the conspirators because their bodies get dumped. They find the pieces of the of the of their uniforms, all happenstance. They do not find the name of the of the location of Camp Kiddemer. He doesn't do anything.

He just all he accomplishes is staying in orbit long enough to pick up Kirk and go. He's the one who posited the possibility that there was a Klingon cruise cling on Bird of Prey that could fire a while cloaked, and that is central to the plot because you have to have that ship just out of view of the enterprise to make it look like the. Right I take it back. He didn't fall down on all counts. He accomplished one of his three goals.

Yeah, I think you're hard. And even then he didn't actually figure out how to undo that problem of the cloaked firing Klingon ship Brend class. That was a Brend class Klingon Bird of Prey by. The way, actually not to be confused with the Katinga class, which was the Kronos one, which is gor Kan ship, which by the way, was just a redressed Klingon Katina class from the Star Trek the motion picture, but ILM judged it up. They put in lights on the nacelles and lighting in the interiors and gave it a paint job.

I thought that both ships were fucking great in this one. What did you think of besides the fact that you don't think Spock really did much, but what did you think of all of the stuff that transpired on the Enterprise, their efforts to unmask the Savoturs? Was there anything you didn't especially like about that part of the movie. I loved the idea and somewhat the practice of a starfleet who'd done it. It's great, and Nicholas Meyers a great one to do it.

I just think the things that they show us as part of their investigation are so silly and just not helpful. And I like the spirit of it, but yeah, I just think the look they invent this. You can't fire a phaser to vaporize on a starship or an alarm over Okay, they make that up for it, which is silly. We've never heard that before. They've clearly vaporized people on the Enterprise before, but they act like they act like, oh my god, of course you don't know that.

Yeah, it's the oldest rule of all time. It's in the prime directive. That's how they're acting. I didn't like that. They could have fucking listen.

There are a million ways to cover their tracks, and they didn't get into any of those. They just shoehorned a parameter around this thing. And again they don't actually they don't solve anything. They just find some stuff some bodies. So, Mike, I just want to say, the worst part of this whole thing on the enterprise, this sort of parallel story that's happening.

The thing I hated the most and I still I think I hate it even more now than I did back then, is at one point they are discovered by a Klingon listening post and the Klingon radios them. Oh, I didn't think we were talking about that. I thought we were talking about the investigation part of it, because that's the worst part of the movie and should have been it should have been cut out immediately. Drove me nuts. So they have to respond back.

They can't use the Universal Translator because they'll be discovered. They want to give the impression. He can't use the they have a looped inline because somebody at the last second went, why don't they just use the universal translator? So they had check off, like fucking comeback in eighty R line where he says, if it's not actually human, we can't use the computer because it has to be personal. It has to be like a human speaking it.

Okay, then say the words into the computer, read it off the screen. Yeah, they have a whole pot. It's like they're cramming for a test in college as a whole part of books, and every time the listening post whatever the person gives them asks them a question, they're flipping through all these books and going, what is your status? Over? My point is this, Father Malone.

This is Lieutenant O'Hora. She is a linguistics expert. She's already said how she's giving seminars and things at Starfleet about linguistics and all this kind of stuff. I don't see there's any possibility that she wouldn't at least have a more than passing familiarity with Klingon after all the times they ran into this, these characters in the old series, like, I just that's that to me is giving short shrift to somebody who is supposed to be an expert in her chosen field. That is an excellent point.

Look, the Encyclopedia party is unforgivable, but yeah, they could have had that scene had it been Scotty and check Off fumbling around like trying to read off of one of the monitors trying to decipher Klingon, and then Uhura walk in and go get away from there and then just speak Klingon to them. You're gonna get us killed, you guys. Let me handle this. This is my job. Idiots.

Yeah, I've only been doing this for twenty six fucking years that we just established. Get up, let me handle this. Nayota Aura doesn't understand Klingon, the fucking the Starfleet's primary antagonist. Come on, yeah, they must. That's probably a class that they would teach in Starfleet, like know your enemy, Like, here's what we know about their culture, here's what we know about their language.

It's no different than if somebody is in a military academy and they have to learn the language of whatever culture they're trying to deal with. It just makes perfect sense to me. There, So that I thought was unforgivable. Rod and Mary's criticism of the movie was that it paid short shrift to the Klingon Empire that it didn't actually reflect their culture in any way, and I totally fucking agree with him, and eventually Nicholas Meyer did too. They just swamped in the Soviet Union for the Klingon Empire and took away everything that makes them clingon.

They're just a bunch of bureaucrats and warhawks. Yeah, I not to excuse that line of thinking, but I give them kind of a pass because this is only what five years, four or five years after the fall of the Berlin Wall and the Iron Curtain finally coming down, So this was fresh in everybody's mind. And obviously you remember father and we grew up the under the fear of nuclear war with the Soviets, So I can see what That's an easy analogy to work into the script. And I thought at the time I thought it was pretty clever. But I hear what you're saying.

Yeah, Like, no, I don't have any problem with the plot. I think it's great, and it points toward an inevitability. We know that there's piece between the Klingons and the Federation because warf is on the fucking enterprise seventy years from now, So why not make that moment in Star Trek History into a feature film and turn it into Who Done It? Love all of that, It's just the execution of it. And let's not forget that in Star Trek five, as much as we hated that movie, at the end of that movie was the actual kind of beginnings of an understanding between the Klingons and the Federation.

That movie ends with them in a lounge hob nobbing and having a chuckle and no whatever, that kind of was thrown out. I guess that goes with our idea that's become non canonical at this point. These movies just don't give us enough time to spend with these characters. When you think about it, Kirk has his entire life fought the Klingons. His son is murdered by a Kleon.

He then spends the next couple of years gallivanting around on a Klingon ship eating Klingon food. I would like to have known little more of Kirk. The nuance of Kirk's feelings towards the Klingons. It is very binary in this just hates them and he's he will never He says this, he will never forgive them for what they've done to his son and Shatner plays it as he plays it. He plays it as like we already talked about how good he is during the during the state ceremony, the dinner, but but let me ask for them.

So they're found guilty, we get back to the trial, McCoy and Kirk, they're sent to this prison planet. Who do they meet on this prison planet? This is something else that I birked me now, didn't mark me back? Then? Are you talking about Imon?

Yeah, yeah, there's something about because I think she was on the come up at that point. She was, she had a lot of notoriety. I'm not sure if she had already married David Billie by then or not. I think maybe she did any But she was obviously a supermodel. And I'm not trying to put down her acting in any way, but I just I still find it jarring that in the midst of this rough and ready prison planet, with these filth and grossness and aliens, you have this gorgeous supermodel and she's just floating around and I don't know, I didn't buy that at all.

Yeah, but she's a shape shifter and we actually see her form by the end. We do. But then, but why would she have felt comfortable walking around in this very pleasing human form, this gorgeous supermodel. Because she knows how to get to Kirk. Everyone knows the reputation of James T.

Kirk and everyone else already knows the shape Shifter, and they're not going to fuck with her. I don't know. They tried to butcher up a little bit by having her smoke cigars, the whole. The cigar that was good. I don't know.

I didn't. I didn't quite buy it. Like I said, It's not about her acting ability or anything. It just I still find it. Maybe it's the fact that she ends up throwing herself at Kirk at one point, and I was just like, really, he old asked, Kirk is getting it on with this gorgeous, stunning supermodel.

Please they make a joke out of it. I think McCoy even groans and goes, oh, what is it with you? That part of it I thought was a little bit to goofy. I liked it because they did comment on it. Eventually, when she shifts into Kirk, she's like, I can't believe I kissed you, Like must have been the greatest thrill of your life.

True, And you know what Why wouldn't you want to fuck Kirk? Obviously he's got this reputation for a reason. He's not bad at sex. I guess he's very experienced. He has a lot of a lot of history there.

He's got to know techniques from all around the galaxy. Seriously, and he has to be familiar with all these different anatomies and how to please certain races in certain ways. Seems to me like what female alien wouldn't want to fuck it? All right? I guess point take it.

But there she comes to Kirk and says that she knows a way how to escape. She can get them past this shield that prevents people from getting transported off of the prison planet. So they escape to Alaska. They're gonna make this escape, and unbeknownst to us, Spock has put a tracker on Kirk, so there's never a time where he doesn't know where Kirk is or what's happening with him. Again, this is something that just it reeks of Nicholas Meyer going, oh a space thing, because would there not be subcutaneous trackers on every member of starfleet?

You would just know where everyone is at all times. We can do that now, Yeah, that's a good point. Just little things like that bug. The fact the fact that the Enterprise has a galley does not bother me because they haven't figured out replication yet. Okay, that makes sense.

Of course they're going to be cooking the food there. Does it make sense when you vaporize a pot that suddenly what's inside turns into a solid? No? They I thought they did figure out. I'm going back to the books here.

I know there's one book I remember reading. I think it was called how Much for Just the Planet? And there were replicators on the Enterprise. There were protein replicators. There weren't like Earl Gray hat that was not happening in the original series.

Time. Ah, when in the original series when you'd go up when the crew members would go to get food, and it looked like the auto mat where they would just put in a little chip and open up a window and take the food out. Somebody was behind the auto mat making the food and putting it in the window for them. The auto mat. I love that comparison.

Do you know that the surface of re A Penthe was just the brons and caves, which is where the back cave is from the original nineteen sixty six series. Really they filmed that in the California that. On a very warm day. Apparently, yeah, I. Would have, because it's all mixed very well with sort of like a helicopter shots of them in some kind of it looks like Hawth or something.

It's like it's obviously a very cold barren wasteland and you're color matching it. Oh okay, Yeah, they sent three doubles up to Anchorage, Alaska and got helicopter shots of them walking across the tundra and then cut it into shots of Los Angeles on a pleasant day. It worked. That's movie magic right there. So Kirk there, they've gotten past the shield, and Kirk correctly surmises that it's all set up.

She that this alien Mark Mark Martilla is in on it, and she is setting them up to be killed in a supposed escape attempt, because that would satisfy any inquiries into how Kirk and McCoy died. Of course, it's the Klingon Empire, and the sentence would have been immediate death unless they intended to actually fucking work him to death. It was going to be one or the other. I don't this standing on fucking paramilitary or international or intergalactic law is fucking ridiculous. They would have immediately beheaded him and all the Klingons would have cheered.

Yeah. Probably, But he figures it out and then there's as you said, she transforms into Kirk, and we have a classic. It actually parkened back to the original series a little bit. Their fight, and I like that about it, where it's that it's Kirk fighting Kirk and you don't know who is who, and the Klingon warden finally comes upon them and should be shoot him? No, shoot him?

Yeah, And of course the shape shifter when she points at Kirk points about six feet above his head. Don't shoot me? He shoot him? Now? Is that a special effect, incorrect portion?

Or is it she just not used to her new height? I think that's I figure where we're led to believe that's how he knew which one to kill, because that was the tell looked exactly the same in every respect, only as you said, they weren't used to this new height. There was an easier way to do it. She didn't have shackles Kirk did. Is that right?

I didn't notice that that is correct? Maybe that I don't know, Maybe it was a flub that kind of worked thematically for the scene. Or maybe they didn't give a shit and they were going to kill them all. Anyway, Sure he was, he was going to kill them all. I love that bit.

I love the bit here. It's funny, the monologuing bit like you know what, let. Me just tell you everything and as no spot, why did you see me? You beastard? He gets beamed up just before the It's like something out of Austin Powers.

It's really funny. So he Kirk, gets Kirk him a get saved by the Enterprise, and get beamed a board. They This is where Sulu comes back into the picture a little bit, because they contact Sulu. Sulu knows where the next peace conference is going to be held. It's very secret, and he gives them the details on where it's going to be.

So they set a course for Camp Kiddimer, which is also in the neutral zone I believe, or on the outskirts of the Neutrals. And we've and also on Next Generation, we've already heard of the Kiddimer massacre, so there's some precedent going on here. They're naming things to link things eventually. Was that in the pilot episode or the original episode they talk about the Kidmer massacre. I believe so, yes, where he talks about the history of you know what, I'm not going to say yes or no because some NERD's going to come after me.

Probably, but that is familiar to me. The Kidmer masacre. Oh, we we didn't even mention. By the way, we're going to get to the climax of this exciting picture. We never talked about.

Who's playing the Federation president. And you fly Bobby kurtwood Smith. Everyone knows him as a red from that seventies show, but he'll always be Clarence Bodicker from RoboCop to me. Always Dick Jones, Dick Jones, I love that scene. The Tiger's playing tonight.

Just give me my fucking phone call. He spits on the paper. Kurtwood Smith, kurtwood Splith playing. Yeah, he's the President of the Federation. Here his character is a Delton.

That's the race he's playing. We saw another Dalton in Star Trenk four, The Voyage Home on the Saratoga. It was the helmsman on the Saratoga. At the beginning of the movie, Yes. But I not enough is spoken about kurtwood Smith and his range the fact that he could play the father on that seventies show and then but at the same time be a fucking scary as hell character like Clarence Bottiker.

He's amazing in RoboCop, just incredible. One of the Yeah, he's one of the best villains of all time thanks to that performance. Absolutely, that's not enough is said about that. But anyway, he plays the Federation President and he's caught in the middle of this because the Klingons wanted justice, but he also wants to do right by Kirk and abide by interstellar law. And I thought he was good in.

This, absolutely, And he had the bluest eyes I've ever seen. Dreamy could just fall right into those pools of blue, couldn't you. I liked how just not ineffectual, but impotent he felt the entire time. Of course, they cut the scene that immediately follows when we meet him again where the starfleet comes in and like, here's what we can do. We can take him out now.

Yeah, but I want to after we go through the actual climax. I want to talk a little bit about the theatrical cut versus the director's cut, and that that figures into it, because there's a lot there. Do not abide the director's cut. I stay with the theatrical cut personally. And I agree with you there.

I agree with you there because yeah, I just think it's leaner. I don't think you need the extra bit with Renee Aberge Renoir as this other conspirator, the idea that we'll talk about it. But in that scene the Current West, I believe Renee Aarbersonoa's character is named as he's walking in the Klingon ambassador is walking out. And both those guys, Renee Aberson Wan and John Shock got their start in nineteen seventy one in mash the. TV show No, the movie, the movie I'm sorry, the movie nineteen seventy one.

You see. Yeah, they're both in that. I didn't know Renee Aberois was in that. He is very young, very very thin, and very reedy. Had So we were still a few years away from Deep Space nine, right, That is correct.

He was going to make his mark there too. And that's true. He said, like he was starting to promote Deep Space nine and people kept coming up to him and talking about his performance in Star Trek four and he's like, I'm not in it, but the fans already knew about it. Oh and we also didn't talk about Hilarius's betrayal on the Enterprise and maybe one of my favorite scenes, actually not maybe, it's one of my favorite scenes in the movie, which is after Kirk is rescued. They it's actually a pretty clever wrinkle to this whole plot that she has killed the two men who were in the suits transported over and killed the Chancellor.

Hold that thought when this in the rewatching of the movie, I really appreciate it. When at the beginning, right before the assassination occurs, right before they fire the torpedoes, we get those two crewmen who are the conspirators and they're saying they're the ones who say like, can you believe the smell of them? And then Valerus catches them and it seems like she's looking down on them like, you guys need to get back to fucking work and stop standing around and being jerks, when in fact she's saying, get to work, go kill the Chancellor. Do this exactly so they are found murdered by a phaser firing on stun at close range. I guess that's enough to not trip the shipwide sensors about firing phasers on the ship.

But and it's actually Kirk who thinks of this. He comes up with this plan where they make a shipwide announcement that they're are court reporters to be brought to the sick bay to take the statements of these two crewmen, implying that maybe they weren't killed at all, in an effort to draw out the person who killed these two crewmen. And we find out that it's actually Hilaris who has been the one responsible. She falls for the trap and she's brought to the bridge and Kirk says, I want I want to know names who's responsible for this plot and she says I don't remember effectively. But then Kirk asks Spock without really asking him.

He just says Spock like it's implied, Spock knows what to do, and Spock does a mind meld against Hilarius's will. Like ward, it's horrible. It is and I remember watching it in the theater and I thought it was a single shot. It's not. It's broken up a few times, but it has the import of a very tense single shot that's circling around them as they are as he's pulling this information out of her, and as he does that, they speak the names at the same time, like Admiral Cartwright, and they say it both in just in synchronized fact.

And it gets to the point where kirk Finn says, where is this peace conference going to be? And it's implied that Spock turns up the volume, let's say, on his mind beld and she starts to shriek. I have no idea. It sounds like whatever he did was horrifying, and he Spock is actually shaken by it too, Like I think his voice trembles a little bit when he says she does not know. I love this sequence because it really forces Spock to do something that to use his abilities in a very grim and somewhat reprehensible fashion.

And there's a lot of parallels to the modern day sort of torture. Techniques, and it's in vain right. They do find out who the conspirators are, but they don't care. Yeah, find out where the fucking base is. Go there, stop the assassination, work out who the conspirators were afterwards.

It is unnecessary and it makes me like our beloved Spock a little less. I just appreciated that he felt like he had no choice this. He had to do this to try and figure out what was happening. I don't know. I like that's he's taking a step out of how we normally think of the character.

He's doing something that he doesn't want to do in the service of justice. It's a nice shading to the character, this more sinister side of him. But it only comes off as sinister to me because when it fails, he immediately says, oh, let's just call Sulu. Yeah, that's a little ridiculous. It's like Dio sex Makina.

He just goes, all right, Captain Sulu, where's the peace conference, Camp Kiddimer, thank you. That entire investigation, that entire torture all could have been solved with a phone call. Yeah, but it is cool that we're seeing Captain Sulu kind of pop into action, which we're going to see a lot more because of course, once they know it's at Camp Kitdtimer, then Chang in this bird of prey that can fire well cloaked, then intercept them at Camp Kitdimer in an effort to destroy the enterprise once and for all. Chang bran Ham buffets open, folks, come on in, get your big old chunks and Dixie fried hand. Cry havoc and let's slip the dogs of war.

It's not enough to do it in the hammest way possible. I gotta bring my fear eat up on my command chair and spin around on it, because the rest of the Klingons wouldn't be like Chang's gotta go. Klingons should never be gleeful, even in the face of destroying their most hated enemy. And that's what you get here. He's spinning in his chair like you would an office chair if you're just feeling a little bit gleeful.

They put that in the trailer, like listen this cool, and I was like, oh Jesus, not good. But Spock figures out that it's actually it's not a naval battle on a par with anything we saw and let's say Star Trek two. But it is nice that we again we have another sort of broadsides where this Klingon ship fires in the Enterprise. Kirk immediately says back up, and that creates this doubt in Chang's mind, as that was pretty on right, like do they know where we are? Like why is he just why is.

He doing is any killing us? Because he doesn't know why we're not why we did what we did. Yeah, it was. It's a nice sort of this is a nice little naval battle going on here, and then little. Bit of gamesmanship from our captains.

It is, And that's I think that's where these movies like really sing is when you get into the broadsides the naval warfare, because that's what this is. They're nothing but tall ships in space. In my opinion, it's unfortunate that the special effects are the least budgeted in a way, like it's almost like and we have to do this as opposed to a full on naval battle like Nicholas Meyer does it so well, Like I could definitely enjoy a film that would be like Master and Commander, whether it's just the Enterprise versus another ship for two hours. Like I'm not criticizing this movie at all. I'm saying like I wanted more of it.

Oh, I agree, I wanted more of it too. The effects as they are, even though they're obviously not doing everything that they we would want them to do. They're on a budget, after all. I thought the effects by and large were really good, especially when they finally they programmed this photon torpedo to detect gaseous anomalies because Spock earlier had figured out that there was this surge of neutrons when the ship was around, when this cloaked vessel was around. So they they've created a torpedo that can detect that kind of gaseous emission.

And they do this within an inch of their lives because they're being attacked by klingon bird prey, and they send this thing out and it hits the cloaked ship and it brings it out of cloaking. When it explodes, I thought it was a neat effect because it just like rocks back and forth and it fades back into view. Sulu is now there because he is he has arrived to take some of the fire off of the Enterprise because the Enterprise is weakening. Everyone in my theater chaired. When Sulu arrived.

It was like Han Solo and the Death Star. It's great because he's so resolute that like everything Sulu does, all of his reactions are clearly done out of extreme loyalty to Captain Kirk. Consequences be damned. He's a little bit like Kirk in that way where he's just like, look, my captain who's in trouble. I have this ship?

What can I do to help out? And he says, all right, let's give him something else to fire on now, and he takes the Enterprise's place. He Sulu's Kirk would not have survived or been successful had it not been for Sulu. That's the best thing about it. Sulu is the most important character in this movie.

He's the one who tells them where to go, and then he saves them once they get there. That's true. He I didn't think of it in those terms, but you're right, he knows what the conference is. He helps the Enterprise survive this attack. Of course he's the most important person.

He's like how like people say like Archied two is the most important character in all of the Star Wars movies. Well, Sulu's kind of fills that role here. He's a little more and he's a little more he has more agency. Sulu is Han Solo and Chewbacca here because he zooms in, saves the day, and then they don't give him a medal. He doesn't get stand around being cheered by everybody in that awkward ending.

Why wouldn't they just see ged a medal around Chewbacca's neck just to make everybody happy. We don't need no metal. He doesn't. He's not doing it for the rewards. Crinkets humans.

I'm eight years old. I don't need a shiny thing. I'm here for the Coarellian, not for your rebellion. So Suelu saves the day. They have just enough time to transport down to the peace conference and process where all the conspirators are in their places, and they there's a I'm gonna call him m.

Klingon. We'll talk about what the director's cut in Pied, but there's a Klingon who's taken a high perch in the sort of windowed anti chamber. In the Great Phantom of the Paradise ending going on it is and we needed some wah wah going on with a guitar and cutting between dancers, Kirk running jumping, so. Good, and they they save the present Federation president just before he's taken out by a sniper rifle. Man, oh Man, Scotty.

Does this movie have it all? It does that Scotty's actually the one who who kills the Klingon assassin and sends him falling to the ground. Everybody has agency in this film. It's true because they all like they beamed down and there's a few guys. Take this, the Romulan ambassador who was in on it.

They deal with the Admiral Cartwright. He's taken under custody. All of the Enterprise crew is down there fulfilling some role in apprehending the conspirators. It's fantastic. Do you know to double back for a second, Let's go back to the trial for a moment.

Do you know that in an initial draft, one of the witnesses that they brought forth against Captain Kirk was. Malts Yet, you're kidding. I am joking. I am not kidding. The studio said, I don't think there's time for this, and laric Head is unavailable, so let's not do that.

So we would have found out what happened to Maltz when he was in the world. We were denied. You know what else is interesting? I wrote this down. So in Star Trek five, we talked about this rogue klingon Captain that is, he's the one who takes it upon himself to try and destroy the Enterprise for no good reason.

He's just bored. Yeah, we talked about that. They dem Yeah, no, that's the thing. So the actor's name is Todd Bryant. And when in the courtroom scene that you just brought up again, there's a translator that is translating all the Klingon into English, and the actor Todd Bryant plays the translator, the Klingon translator.

And I didn't know it until I'MDB. Someone whoever posted in an IMDb and the trivia section made the guess that does this mean he's been demoted? He was a captain and now he's just a lowly translator in a Klingon courtroom. I thought that was interesting that they brought this actor back. We to believe that it's the same character, I guess, is my question.

Either that or they just needed somebody to fit the outfit and he was available. Yeah. Yeah, he fits the suit like Johnny Bravo exactly. And yeah, that's a nice little touch if that's true, if that's the same character, not just the same actor that was friends with the first assistant director or something. Yeah, So now that we've talked about how this all went down, let's talk a little bit.

I'd like to talk a little bit about the director's cut. I my preferred cut, like yours, is the theatrical cut. The director's cut also includes Renee Auberjonnois as this other Federation officer who is involved in this plot, and by and large, biggest changes have to do with this additional conspirator. Where it really comes into focus is the Klingon that was in the sniper's nest who gets killed by Scottie after he falls out of this vantage point. They go to him and they realize that, oh, he doesn't have pink blood, he has red blood, and they unmask him and it turns out that he is this Federation officer in a Klingon disguise, which I will say would have been a good touch, because the whole point is they want to create this uncertainty of who killed what and who's involved.

So it was a nice touch, but ultimately completely unnecessary, completely overcomplicating what is a pretty basic, like a very streamlined set of conspirators. I thought, if it had been a one sided conspiracy, if it had just been Starfleet trying to scuttle these plans and there hadn't been a Klingon connection, and then it would have made sense that they're trying to blame the Klingons. But as is, just get one of your Klingons who's down for this to come do it. One of Chang's man. Yeah.

The worst thing I will say about the director's cut is during the mind Meld interrogation scene, as Valaris and Spock are saying the conspirators' names out loud. In the theatrical cut, they just say it and that's it. But in the director's cut, after they say the name, they do this thing where they fade in a still shot of the person that they're referring to, like Admiral Cartwright. Then they show a little picture of Admiral kut right, and it fades back out. It undercuts all the tension of that scene, which is That's probably the number one reason why I prefer the theatrical cut over the director's cut.

But what I know you already said you didn't really love the director's cut. Well give me a little more information. What didn't you like about it? I did think it was overly complicating things, and just what you said, like, it's a little too explative. It's like when Walter Hill went back and said, oh, this was always supposed to be a comic book.

Now I'm going to have every transition be these really shitty comic book panels. No, you don't get to do that now, Fuck you. Look. I know it was his original intention to do it, but sometimes the director's cut is not the best version of a movie, and in this case, it only made things sillier, more convoluted. And we had a fucking starfleet officer in the twenty third century with a giant notepad trying to explain a plan.

It's like an easel that he has, a giant It's like you said, they're playing Win lou Her draw at Bert Reynolds's house with Lonnie Anderson. Yeah, like do they have enough dry erase markers or you take blue and you beat green? And they didn't even have like a dry erase board, which is like, it's not even that technically complex that he's actually got. It's an easel with paper. On with paper on it.

At one point when when the gor Khan's daughter she becomes chancellor, one of her advisors comes in and says we should strike now, and he does so by unfolding this map of a galaxy, a map, a paper map of a galaxy. Do you know how many screens are around you right now, guys. So funny. So I'm When I rewatched this, I primarily focused on the theatrical cut. I did rewatch the director's cut just to refamiliarize with myself with it because I had this memory of Renee Aubergiennois being in the movie.

But then when I rewatched it the first time, I said, what happened to him? And then I went and found the director's cut and it made sense why he was there and not in the other. Oh, those scenes had shown up on television too, when it aired on TV. They used to do that from time to time, Like you got to see General Zod and Non take out that Guard and Superman if you watch the television version, Oh, you mean. The very first movie when they're before they get taken.

Yes, there's some sort of Kryptonian guard and he has a helmet like like some sort of medieval thing. Yeah, they break his neck and then they go and get the crystal and break it. Man, you're right, I forgot that wasn't in the theatrical version. Wow, that just blew my mind right there. Do you know that rhor Penthe showed up a couple more times in Star Trek productions it's in it.

It shows up in an episode of Enterprise where Captain Archer is sentenced to a jail time of life on Ruherpenthe, and in the deleted scenes, we're gonna get to this movie the jj Abrams first star Trek. The entirety of those romulent miners that what's his name, oh, Eric Eric Banner? Eric, I was gonna say Tom Hardy, Eric Banner. That group of romulents that Eric Banna is leading, they're all they're all consigned to Ruapenthe at the beginning. That's where they're That's that's where they're mining.

That's where their mining ship is from. In that movie, that's Ruapenthe, which means Ruapenthe is three for three. As far as escapes from Ruapenthe. It's not so secure after all. I guess that's so impregnable.

We didn't talk about Christian Slater in his little cameo in The Excelsior, which I always thought was weird. To be honest, I liked it. I thought it was nice. Well, the weird part of it. It's not weird that he was in it.

I know I've read that he was a fan and he was he jumped at the opportunity. What's weird is he is like under the shroud of darkness through the whole It's almost like they're setting yourself, They're setting us up for a reveal that has no real meaning or importance. He's like like like, why wouldn't why do we Why is he shrouded in darkness? It was well, I like it because it's not just hey, here's Christian Slater. It's like, is that Christian Slater?

And then Sulu in the same sort of lighting set up, and then back to him like, wait, I think that is Christian Slater. So you were at least getting that instead of just like, what's Christian Slater doing on in it? On the Excelsior, I suppose it felt like they were setting up a reveal that didn't really have it. It wasn't a real easter egg in any way. I'm sure everyone knows that Christian Slater's mom, Mary Joe Slater, is one of the best casting agents in all of Hollywood and was the casting agent on this film, which is how he got the role.

Evidently framed his paycheck from it, never cashed. It just has it on the wall. You know what if I had all that money, I would do the same thing. And he was wearing William Shatner's pants from Star Trek two. Yes, I read that as well, which is surprising because you would figure Kirk would have a let's say, a bigger waistline.

Then Christian Slater. Just put a belt on it. It doesn't matter. We're shooting you from the waist up anyway. That's true, that's true.

But yeah, he plays an officer on the Excelsior. It's a nice little cameo. Repent thee good name it is. Because it it kind of puts you in the mindset of repent. That's what it feels like.

And I'm I'm sure that's the Yeah, it makes up for the clumsiness of Chang and gore Khan. But now I'm not going to stop thinking about the fact that they've had all these successful escapes from this supposedly impregnable prison planet that no one escapes from. They figure, if you get out, you get out of the prison, you're just going to die above ground. Anyway. It's the Moscow, the Mosca listening station.

They're the real problem there on Repente because their scanners apparently can't identify when a Federation ship is in orbit, you have to ask them, hey, could you tell us what you are? Or we're definitely not Romulans? What do you guys like? Were them? Yeah?

It was a silly scene, but at least they resisted the urge to subtitle the Klingons questions so that when they ask their question, we the audience are as in the dark about what they're asking as through of the enterprise. Oh, I disagree entirely with you. He asked the question in Klingon, we see it subtitled, and then he keeps asking the same question over and over again, and they're like, whoa, I don't know what it is. See I didn't that the copy that I watched did not have those his Klingon speech subtitles. It was like, identify yourselves like aliens craft.

Identify yourself is what he just kept asking over and over again. And it was a situation like Malt Choi Chu, where we see the subtitle the first time and then we don't need it the second time. Jeush verschu nuk reen, jeush ver schu nuk reen, he says, Leen. He has this rolling tongue thing that I always thought was pretty cool. Do you know that when the Klingon language was created, it's creator made as its centerpiece the fact that there was no verb to be in Klingon.

They wouldn't have that. They would have verbs that were more pointed, so you wouldn't say, it would be to attack somebody, to drive a car, to climb a mountain. That's the verb in its entirety. It isn't just to be on its own like that doesn't exist. So he had to make up a new fucking word because they had to fucking Shakespeare the shit out of this movie.

It's I'm still in wonder of the fact that this is a real language. It's just taken for granted that it's a joke to most people. But that's not a trivial thing. To invent an actual language with conjugation and everything that goes into the grammar. That's pretty pretty cool, pretty remarkable.

Oh yeah, man, I wish I knew it. I'm gonna have to start listening while I'm asleep, wake up and start speaking Klingon or to my breakfast b rito. Do you remember those like Burlitz used to have those like English French English dictionaries. Do you think they have one for Klingon, of. Course they do.

There are courses you can take to learn Clingon just beingzy. Specifically Berlitz, because there's such a respected organization for learning languages. Ber Let's offer Klingon language courses a promotional novelty only. Mark Ochrin, however, does have the Klingon Dictionary available for you, and there's there is the book The Klingon for the Galactic Traveler out. There and cling On for the Galactic Traveler.

We didn't really talk about the final sort of wrap up. That's what we're talking about right now, HB. We're talking about see y'all. Second start of the Right Baby, second movie this year, going to use that line. But ending At the time, I thought the ending was touching because they after everything has been solved, Horror gets the word from Starfleet that they have to come back for decommissioning.

Yeah yeah, and Spock says something like if I were human, I would tell them to go to hell. And then still. Did stil did Kirk hit us so with some poetry. I guess my point is, are we to understand that now they're going to be space pirates, They're not going to go back they're going to disobey Starfleet and become a rogue element in the universe. Doesn't mean I believe they're going to go out and do one last jount to wherever the fuck they want, because they fucking deserve it, because they are the crew of the Starship Enterprise.

And then they'll return the ship and it can be decommissioned and they'll all retire as previously planned. All Right. It's a lovely final shot because they effectively have the whole bridge taking up the whole picture frame, so you see all of these characters that we've known and loved for what thirty some odd years up to that point. And then when they go to the credits, they actually, before they get to the credits, they actually have the handwritten autographs of each cast member kind of zoom from the movie screen, which really underscores the fact that, you know what, this is the last one, Like there's no no question in anybody's mind that there's going to be no more original series movies. And I signed my name, do not ask me back.

I did it already. I did it. You know what, I've already that's it. What more can I do? Now?

Obviously there was a crossover in generations, which we'll get to where there's a few actors that appear there. But it was never going to You knew it was never going to be the same after this. This was an end of an era. Truly, this is a situation where we're never going to get this crew again in their entirety. But to be honest, they we hadn't in this one either, in that Zulu wasn't part of the crew.

He was on his own ship gallivant and around the universe checking gaseous clouds. Sure, but he was unique. But because you had to give that character his final sort of grace note. But they needed to just expunge the stain of Final Frontier here. So thank god they gave the everyone a bit of dignity at the end.

And what I was going to ask was like, do you think Shatner was irked at the fact that this that Star Trek five, his baby, the thing that was going to be his directorial sort of debut. Do you think he was irked that they decided they could not end on that shitty note. I think he was probably just happy to be doing another one. What might have irked me is watching the Wizards of Industrial Light and Magic come in and fucking pump this movie up to the highest possible level. When he had rink eating things on wires.

That's fair. I guess you can have some sympathy for Shatner at the same time. Then, oh yeah, definitely. They gave nick Meyer everything and he had had nothing. Sure, but it's again, it's a lovely way to end the movie, very satisfying.

I was satisfied with this movie. I know you had your problems with it, and there's certainly there's credence to a lot of what you said, but at the same time you can also admit that it's a nice way to end this first phase of Star Trek movie. Yeah, absolutely this I'll say it again. This should have been Star Trek four and Star Trek The Voyage Home should have been this movie if you wanted to put them in a proper order where we could go out and have some fun at the at the end. And because this is more of a serious film and should have been a more serious movie and should have just let Nick Myers do three movies together or something.

But I do think it belongs in those classes. It's not motion picture and it's not Final Frontier. Any problems I have with this movie are in the idiocies of some plot contrivances. When Valeris goes to demonstrate that if you fire a phaser on board, that the alarm is going to go off, she slides up a board that just looks like a poorly painted office depot roll top desk, Like just little chintzy things like that, like little weirdo anachronisms like really pile up for me in this movie over time. But it's the mark Chagall on the wall, and everyone's quoting fucking Shakespeare for some reason, and here's a history lesson about another thing from Earth.

It just every time they do that, it pulls me out of the twenty third century and deposits me back here to a bunch of screenwriters who should know better, or at least have consulted other nerds. Sure, let me let's play a little game here for a minute, fa them alone. Now that we've gotten through the first bunch of original series movies, where would you rank these first five six movies? What order? Let's put them in order, folks, Let's put them in order.

Should we start at the end and work our way to number one? Number one is obviously Wrath of con There's just no better Star Trek movie. So Star Trek two. Yeah, okay, huh, this is a tough one. Now, this is tough one.

Actually, I'm going to go in one to ten or one to six. The second one is the most difficult. That's what I'm saying that the second one is that it's easy because the con is by consensus the best. But then what do you put as the second best? I have my list, but I'm curious what you have.

It's Star Trek three. It's Search for Spock. Honestly, really, if you put it's that order, I would put two, three, four, six five. I had the exact same grouping, which is not it's not Rocket science, it's it writes itself. But I will say I swapped out Star Trek four for Star Trek three.

I thought I went Star Trek two, Star Trek four, six, three, one five. Not a controversial thing. That's a rollicking good movie from beginning to end. Absolutely, But as far as pure Star Trek goes, like, I got really into in this freewatch, I got really into the Genesis plot line. I got really into that those characters dealing with that storyline and those emotions, which is why I think like it would have paid off with this movie as the third in the trilogy, because had look, I'm fan fictioning everybody, had you simply not killed Krug at the end of part three and then had Part four be The Undiscovered and we get Krug back immediately, Holy fuck, it would have been this whole other dynamic going on, not just the sort of Cold War analogy.

Well what it's going to call it a boring one. It wasn't boring at the time, but it seems a little lame now, it seems a little obvious. Yeah, but I saw this when I was eighteen, I was in California for the first time. Well, well, I know, I thought it was I thought it was fucking peaches and gravy. I will say this, and I agreed with him.

Super Nerd, sitting three rows in front of me, had two exclamations during the movie which have stayed with me to this day, which is the hell, yeah there when we saw that Wharf or Wharf's ancestor was in this movie. At the end, when Captain Kirk is giving us the final Space, the final Frontier speech, when he corrects himself and says, no man or no one has gone before. Nerd three rows in front yells Nope, not yours. And I agreed with him. Because we had already had that corrected in the generation for two years by that point.

You don't get to take that. Sorry, Like I know that. Like certain executives at Paramount actually wanted Kirk to like hand the keys to the enterprise over to Picard at the end of this one. And then people were like seventy years in between these projects, right, like, oh, okay, can we do something. Yeah, Picard isn't even born yet.

This is ridiculous, which is why it becomes That's why it becomes interesting in generations, which we'll talk about where they finally do get to meet. But we're getting ahead of ourselves. We just put a list together of the original series cast with no peripherals involved. Eventually we're going to rate all of these movies. Ooh, that's gonna be so all of our three different subsets of movies, next Gen, Kelvin and original cast.

Oh man, that's gonna be difficult. Oh not really, that is. Going to be difficult. No, but it would be easy to say, Oh, of course the Abrams ones are going to be at the end. But I will counter that because I've rewatched them.

Marty a little bit, just getting ready for this. Oh, have you not watched every Star Trek movie like I have? Absolutely, And I will say, like, there are parts of it that I like better than when I first saw them. There's some stuff that I don't think. I still think is problematic in a sense, but I don't think it's a slam dug.

There may be. I think we can agree at a minimum that Star Trek five is probably going to be the last on the list of any inclusions you make. I think, Oh, we've talked about this a little bit offline. What's not in contention is the best movie is still Star Trek two. No matter what.

Yeah, spoiler alert everybody. When we get to the end of this series, the number one movie is still going to be Star Trek. It may not be your favorite or someone's favorite. That's a personal thing, but objectively, it has all of the elements that make a tremendous Star Trek experience, and it really set the tone for that. Anything that's that is as good or approaches that level of quality is really just beholdened to what Star Trek two brought to the table.

Is it really redefined what a Star Trek movie could be. Not only is it the best evocation of Star Trek on screen, but the only way you could make it more accessible to a general audience would be to add whales and make it a lighthearted romp. Star Trek four. Yes, it's a fun movie and everything, but as far as pure Star Trek goes, as and as accessibility goes, I think that's the one. None of the Abrams movies, which I think are the most accessible of any of the Star Trek movies, because yeah, they played on a huge scale for a giant audience.

I don't think those captured the spirit the way Wrath of Khan did. No, those are we're getting really ahead of ourselves. So those are big budget action NICKX travaganzas that just happened to be involved with the Star Trek universe. But they are crafted in a way that you don't have to be a Trekker somebody obsessed with it. They wanted to mass market the hell out of these thing and not leave anybody out.

Whereas I would argue something like Star Trek two, the average person who comes into it cold that they may enjoy the hell out of it, but I think it's the people who know who KHN is, are aware of the history behind it, are the ones that's really written for. I would say it's for those people. Ultimately, a new Star Trek feature has been a non starter for years and years. They keep threatening to do this and that and the other. Yeah, you know what's going to do one yeah, and.

Yet Nicholas Meyer is still alive. Imagine what he could do with a JJ Abrams budget, or just the length and breadth of the effects. Could we get that Master and Commander movie. That's what I'm asking for. Can we just get a naval battle Star Trek movie from beginning to end?

We will fuck it. I oh man, it would be amazing. When I think back to those sequences in Cohn where they're figuring out where they are and there's battles, there's retreats, there's all this stuff that is so incredibly tense and engrossing to watch. Maybe we're just nerds for this stuff fo them alone, but I have to believe that it's quality. It works.

I have to believe other people would respond in the same way. Man, How incredible would it be for him to come back one more time and make a Star Trek movie under those under that agis it would be fantastic. And we're at a place now where there are so many franchises of Star Trek that you could drop in and go, this is a one off, two hour movie. This is a story that's going to happen from beginning to end. This is a story of a naval battle that took place.

It's set in this universe. Here are the characters. Here we go, and it could be awesome. Yeah, could be Let him make it. Just give him the keys and say, you know what, make the Horatio Hornblower movie that you wanted to make as a kid.

Just make it within Starfree parameters, anything you want, because it doesn't have to be Kirk and we don't need any of the peripheral characters to show up. Or you could pepper in fucking and favorites that aren't getting any fucking play anymore. Yeah, I agree they where's Chakote these days? Chackotae? I'm not familiar with that character?

What come on? Man from Voyager? I never watched there, Aside from Next Generation, I didn't really watch many of those. I watch a little bit of Deep Space nine, but not much after that. My man, Voyage is good.

Voyage is good. Deep Space nine is good for the most of the seasons. Yeah yeah, and then that's it. Those are the Caesars. Those are the series, right.

Well, but you liked is it Strange New World? I love the Strange New World. Everyone listen. I do not like the J. J.

Abrams universe. Okay. I also do not like the fucking Akiva Goldsman and fucking Alex Kurtzman versions of Star Trek that they've been pumping at. I don't like the Discovery was good for one season, and that's because that one season was plotted out by Brian Fuller, who were, by the way, this is a Star Trek fest. But we're gonna be covering Brian Fuller in a fuller manner on doing very soon because that he's an interesting guy.

I think he's one of the more interesting filmmakers out there. And he plotted that season. And I watched that first season, I was like, this is fucking great. Like I could see what the problems people were having with it, but the storytelling was so fucking good and interesting that I was willing to go with it. And then the second season, Brian Fuller was not involved at all and Alex Curtman took over and that felt a shit immediately.

And he has consistently been one of the more mediocre writers out there as far as I'm concerned, him and his buddy Akiva Academy Award winner for fucking adapting a book and turning it into Fight Club, Akiva Goldsman. So I don't like them at all, But for some reason, there's some alchemical thing going on where Strange New Worlds hits everything for me everything. When does Starfleet Academy premiere. January the fifteenth, Sir, I'm gonna start waxing about fucking again. Paul Jamatti as this character.

Paul Jamatti is a trek fan, by the way, a trekker. He knows the villains. I guarantee you we're gonna get something really interesting from that guy. I wish I shared your enthusiasm. I hope I'm wrong.

Oh look, it looks like nine O two one zero on board a Starfleet ship, But and I don't relish that. Nevertheless, what am I not going to give it a chance? I'm not going to give the first season look, I'll give any series three episodes, and if it was if it stuck a little bit with me, I'll keep going a little bit. But like three hours at least, or if there's two hour pilot, that's four hours. Two movies.

I've given you two movies of my life that I think we can judge it at least till then. No, not you and I, but I just mean in general with. Yeah, that'd the royal We Yeah. Like I wish Star Trek fans would get their fucking heads out of their asses sometimes and try something with an open mind instead of just like what can I hate about this? It seems like that's people hate watch stuff, not just Trek fans, but people.

That's a thing now where you're like, you know, I'm gonna hate fucking hate this. I hate I'm just gonna watch it because I fucking hate it. I just want to tear it apart. I think you and I can agree that when we do these podcasts, occasionally we have to talk about things that we don't like, and that is often the worst. It's the worst, it's often the worst, the most, the hardest thing to get into because as fans of media, of movies, and of TV shows, and of music and so forth.

We want to like this stuff, and you have to come into it with an open mind because you may be surprised pleasantly. But when it's something that you just know, like through experience or otherwise, that it's just going to be a terrible you gotta basically report to everybody that this thing sucks. It's not fun because it's a fucking slog to watch it. It's a slog to take all of these fucking notes that we take to do it. It's no fun for either of us.

I think no, And that's why my other show with this show technically but Father Malone's Weekly round Up, that's where I cover things that are current and there are episodes that I do not do. And it seems like I'm being lazier or something, but it's literally I'm at the li last minute like writing what needs to be said about these things and slagging it off and just going like, there's better uses for everyone's time than me just making fun of this thing that I'm sure a million people have already lined up to make fun of it, you know what I mean? You don't need my snark on top of that, if I'm forced to watch something and it's terrible, and you ask me my honest opinion, you're gonna fucking get it.

But that doesn't mean that's what I'm trying to bring to the table. So here we are, end of one series, beginning of another. Oh my god, we're gonna get a bald man. There can't be a bald man in the future, but there is. There was those talks remembers.

Have you ever seen that footage with him in the two Peyrey You're kidding, I am absolutely not. In the next episode of Star Trek Best, we're gonna be talking about Star Trek generations. And in that episode in the show notes, there's gonna be a link to Patrick Stewart's screen test with two pay. I had really because I don't think I've ever seen even him as an as a young actor with hair. It's embarrassing for everyone, huh.

I'll be following that link when you send it out, just like everybody else, Father alone, because I want to see this. A lot of mel pattern baldness on the crew of the Excelsor I noticed, and a lot of beardos there. We'll end it on that on the next episode, like I said, we're gonna be talking about Star Trek generations until then. If people want to find you and listen to all your stuff, as you well should, come on free loaders. Please join us.

I co host a podcast called Night Mister Walters, a taxi podcast alongside of course Father Malone. Please check that out. And I host the Noise Junkies music podcast. Also, last, but not least, I have a band camp site which is hpmusicplace dot bandcamp dot com. I'm gonna be listening to your music tomorrow.

We're doing a harvest tomorrow. Don't listen to podcasts when I'm physical and working on the plants. So I'll be listening to your stuff tomorrow, my friend. Oh, thank you. Enjoy and you should all be listening to at work or wherever you are.

It's a new year. It's time to start something new. Give an artist to try, as for me. If you want to support this show, go to Patreon dot com slash follow them alone. We get everything early, sometimes two weeks, sometimes a month early.

Basically as soon as I finish it. The patrons get it because hey man, they're paying. Everything ends up in the feed anyway. But check me out there I do. I've been you know what.

Let me let me throw it to a friend of ours, Paul Waller. He's his show A Year in Horror. I'm a frequent collaborator on that. We have. We do a show called A Little Old Lady Got Mutilated Late last Night, which you can get on our Patriot get on my Patreon channel.

But it's mainly his show and what else I don't know. Follom alone seven to one at gmail dot com if you want to come at me with nerd business which happened this week HP which happened Finally, finally a nerd came for me. It wasn't technical, Like it wasn't like a technical battle, which is what I'm always expecting from Star Trek nerds. Star Wars nerds are just assholes. Star Trek nerds will pin you down on like not just like the name of the plan that you got wrong, but like you didn't understand the science behind it.

Like so this guy was actually relatively cool about it, and it was more about like like a narrative thing that was going on and a dramatic thing that was being presented when we were just fucking around and making fun of it. Because we're idiots. Anyway, check y'all next time on the Star Trek next Generation. Hey, HV, what was the name of that What was the name of the ambassador? My friend?

Oh, I don't fuck You told me and it left my mind as soon as you told me. What was his name? Camarag Forever, my friends, that's a Camag Camarag