199. Frankenbirdeater

I fall to pieces Each. Time I see you again I fall. To pieces how can i be just your friend. Oh the complexities of relationships christine which is what today's episode is about welcome to the feminine critique i'm emily i'm christine uh and when i am not not letting my husband turn the oven on because i keep turning it off on the app uh we're here to talk. About movies We are.

We are. This is all thematically just in line, too, about what we're talking about. I mean, these are movies about the complexities of relationships and what that all entails. And electricity. Electricity.

Oh, my God. You're right. And it's raining outside. So all of this goes into play. We picked two movies for October because we were like, it's October.

We're going to do spooky stuff. Yep. So you can blame both of, this is fascinating to me because we, Christine, Christine just picked movies. Well, give me a bunch and we'll go through them. So you gave me a choice of three.

And from that, I picked two because I had seen one of them. So the movies we picked today, one of them, we had the same reason, I think, for going for it, which is because it is a seminal movie that neither you nor I had ever watched. And that is 1990s Frankenhugger. That's very true. I have so many things to say about just what came out of your mouth, but we'll hold it.

Was it the seminal? Is that, was that the, the. No, I just, it just doesn't feel like it was 90. Doesn't it feel like it was, I don't know. Oh, it feels so eighties.

Yeah. I mean, 90 you're right. You're right. Cause that's the thing. 1990 is eighties, right?

1990 is still tail end of eighties. It hasn't established its own identity yet, but also I think because of the, um, And it's funny to say budget because Frankenhooker was probably cost more than I think any of Hennenlotter's other films. But because of like the budget feeling, because of it still being like a Frank Hennenlotter film, it does feel like, I feel like everything he made felt 1984. Yeah. No, yeah, definitely that aesthetic is very lo-fi and grimy in a complimentary way.

But for me, I was like this... When it said 1990, I was like, you know, visually I have always just assigned this to a mid-80s kind of feel. So to see that it's actually 90 was just surprising. And I think it does have some 90s sensibility to it, but definitely... not in a meaningful way, in my opinion. Um, so it's just interesting.

It's like, it's, it sits in a strange spot, I guess. Yeah. So we paired that with a completely unrelated film. Or is it, or is it you? I didn't know anything about this movie.

You said, um, one of the, on your list was a movie called bird eater, which was on shutter. And I just brought it up, look at the synopsis. And it was, you know, a, uh, engaged couple, um, decide to go together to the bachelor party and strangeness ensues. And I was like, yeah, that sounds up my alley. And it is, it.

Is such a different movie. It in some ways is also like not necessarily what I think if either of us had known more, probably not what we would have picked for like October spooky. Cause it spoiler alert bird eater, not really a horror movie at all. Or is it? Again, much to say.

So yes, we will talk about both these films. I think we've decided to.... And again, I'm just going to say it right now. There are a lot of weird connections between movie A and movie B that don't appear at first glance to be connections, but I think they're there. So remind me to try to figure out what those are by the time we get to the end.

Absolutely. So we're going to start with Frankenhooker, because we feel like that's what most people came here for. And. Why had you never seen it? Yeah, so let me just say this about that.

For everybody that was like, Christine, I can't believe you've seen this. And you know who you are. You listen to the show. Emily hasn't either. So, like, it's not just me.

And you don't understand. I had a, like, framed picture of Belial from Basket Case in my bedroom growing up. Like, when I was 11 years old. I think my mom got it for me from Spencer's Gifts. We used to sing... because I loved all the Basket Case movies, Basket Case 3 being probably my favorite.

There's a whole sequence where all of the Basket Cases are on a school bus and the, oh God, who plays her? Is it June? Oh God, it's killing me that I can't think of the actress. But the sweet old lady sings the song Personality and all the Basket Cases sing along. And I tell you, my mother and I, for the next 40 years of our relationship, anytime that song came up, we both would look at each other and go, Belial.

So yeah. How did I also not see Frankenhooker? Well, we are basket case girlies. I mean, I think that's just a fact. So sometimes in a person's life, you just, this is something that is unique to me.

I know. I save things. We've discussed this on the show. It went from like, I'm very much a fan of basket case as well. I don't think I've ever seen the third one, but like that was a movie that I watched multiple times.

Thought was great. Got it for Hen and Lotter. Got it. But I think at first for me, Frank and hooker was just something that I didn't want to approach because it didn't really feel like it was for me. And yeah.

And imagine being like a single woman or in my case, like a teenager, which was when I was going to the video store and like being the girl that rents a movie called Frank and hooker that brings Frank and hooker up to the register and just like has to justify that or confront that or bring it home to your parents and hope they're not going to see it. Like, cause we had kind of a, you know, no rules about rentals in my house, except like if I had picked up a movie called Frankenhooker, I might have, that might've been crossing a line. I do get that. I think for me, my, when I became more aware of this movie as like a movie with a title and a director and not just imagery, I was definitely like, like an adult.

I was in my twenties. And at that point I was renting pornography. So like, I wasn't shy about renting things. This just, I just, I don't know a lot about Henenlotter. I, his, but like, I know his aesthetic and I know that the basket case films grimy, maybe slightly unpleasant.

So I don't want a movie that's going to be mean to women ever in my life if I wanted this. So there's this, this part of me that's like, I don't want to feel upset or bothered or othered by this this movie I'm sure a movie that I think at first glance when you are everything about it feels like I'm watching a movie by a very heterosexual guy born in 1950 who was a grimy New York filmmaker who hung out with Abel Ferreira like I think I know what I'm getting with this movie and I think I got a lot that I wasn't expecting yeah and I think for me it flipped at some point it became okay well the type of people that are repping this movie now are people I trust so then it became well now this is my two favorite cinematic subjects like the Frankenstein myth and sex workers in film so now I'm saving it now it's just like this is this holy thing that I have to someday get around to watching because I'll never be able to watch it for the first time again Um, so then I just held it until it felt like, oh, it's on shutter now.

Yeah. It's October. We need something. Yeah. It, it, and I will say, you know, cart before the horse, similar to you.

Um, I, I get, it's not at all what I thought it was going to be. And also I posted on Instagram. I'm really glad I waited until now version of me. this would have been my entire personality to the point where I would have become intolerable. Like people would have stopped engaging with me because I would have become this movie in the shape of a person. This is the most perfect movie I've ever seen in my life, hands down.

And I'm really glad as a 44 year old woman, I could watch it as an adult and synthesize it in a healthy way. Yeah. Um, so I, um, I don't think I had the same, it took me a long time again to realize like this was a like real genuine like cult horror movie. And part of it was my niece Erin, who's a huge fan of it. And I was always like, oh, okay.

Interesting. Like that. Cause I don't know that I had really heard it discussed much. I feel like it always would come up on lists and like, but I don't know that I remember hearing conversations of, from people of like, why Frank and Hooker was great or just anybody really talking about the movie. And so kind of like knowing, okay, like you're saying like, yeah, there are certain people who really like vouch for this movie.

There must be something here. And it's Frank Annenlotter who I like have such an affection for. I just kind of never thought like never ever came to mind of like, oh, this is what I should watch today. I should watch Frank and Hooker. So I was so glad when you picked it because I was the same thing of like, oh great, this is my, finally my time has come to watch Frankenhooker.

And I had a kind of crunched weekend so I had to start this movie at the gym. And I was thinking to myself, oh no, is this going to be one of those scenarios where I very quickly realized I should not be watching this movie at the gym. Because it happened to me once or twice before where I was on the elliptical and I was watching a horror movie and a lot of horror movies have a lot of boobs and have a lot of sex and Um, this one in particular that I watched some years ago was like a beauty and the beast movie. So there was penis. It was a lot.

And I'm just watching this movie kind of like realizing I should probably block it. And the woman next to me on her elliptical was giving me the death stare. And definitely thought I was watching porn at the gym. So, um, I, I turn on, uh, uh, the Franken hooker and like, I was only there for about like 35 minutes. So for the most part I got through there, there was only like a few boobs, so it was okay.

Um, And nobody was too close to me, so I was all right with it. But it was so funny because then I come home and I keep watching it and immediately the next scene is the party where it's just boo-boo. I'm like, oh, good. Okay. Glad that timed out well.

Yes, I loved this movie. I will also just show my cards. It has the same sensibility of the Basket Case series. But I think it is a little bit. It's a little bit tighter.

It's like a little bit more accomplished as a movie. Like it definitely has the same spirit. And I found a great quote from Hedon Lauder. This was, I think, just like on his Wikipedia page. But he says, I never felt that I made horror films.

I always felt that I made exploitation films. Exploitation films have an attitude more than anything. An attitude that you don't find with mainstream Hollywood productions. They're a little ruder, a little raunchier. They deal with material people don't usually touch on, whether it's sex or drugs or rock and roll.

And, like, this movie is, like, definitely, like, it's deliberately not refined in a way where you can tell watching this, especially comparing it to, like, the first basket case of, oh, you have real actors in this movie. Like, the lead guy, I think, is great. He's really good, yeah. And without that performance, this movie would deeply, deeply suffer. Like, him being able to narrate, essentially... makes this so much more watchable than I think what it could have been if he didn't spend money on SAG actors.

But it still absolutely has the, like, kind of grimy, sweet exploitation-ness to it that is just so charming. This movie charmed me, my God. It's a really charming movie, but I think Basket Case is also charming in a strange way, and that's one of its strengths. Yeah, I think... So it is a Frankenstein story, which we've discussed a lot.

Yeah, not too recently. Yeah, we've discussed that a lot recently. And I got to tell you, I think about the Frankenstein myth a lot. This is such an interesting subversion or not even subversion, but like take on it because what it takes and what it leaves is so fascinating too. Like it munches off of this very meaty subject matter and then just like, takes little tiny bits and pieces of it to do what this like weird story, this very New York story too, which is New York.

New Jersey story. No less. Somehow more New York than anything. It really is. His consistent talking about his commute and shit is so fucking funny.

And I was proud of myself because as soon as the movie opened and I love the, Oh my God, the opening, as soon as this started, I realized very quickly, I'm going to love this movie. Just because it is this like sunny suburban backyard party with this like weird little goofiness of him working on like an eyeball in a electrical device at the kitchen table while his fiance's mother is just trying to bring the pretzels out. And immediately I'm charmed by it. And I also clocked it right away. Is this Long Island?

No, it's Jersey. It's Jersey. And I realized like, oh, I can actually tell Jersey from Long Island. Well, when, when it was very clear that where it was set, I thought of you immediately. But it, and that's one of the, another reason why it's so strange that neither one of us has had really watched it because I love New York movies.

Like, it's like, you know, it's great to see old New York and the way that you used to just be able to walk around and film it. Like it's not, we don't get things like that anymore. So it's really fun to see that. And this is chock full of that shit. It's got that domesticity of like an early carpenter domesticity to it.

And then we get like this grimy New York stuff that felt like driller killer type of icky alleys and like wet sidewalk shit. And like it's lit so fun too. Like it felt like ahead of its time in its lighting. But I know it wasn't. It's just, when you see that now, it feels so like, oh, people are lighting things.

So when you see it in this movie from 1990 that clearly was made with no money, you're like, whoa, they really were doing something with lighting. Yeah, they figured things out. I think this was obviously never meant to be scary. This was very much a horror comedy. For me, the other moment that, like, I already knew I was on the wavelength as soon as the lawnmower happened.

I know. The lawnmower scene. Again, I'm like, I'm at the elliptical, and I'm like, oh, I know where this is going, and I am there for it. And then to follow up, so it starts with Frankie, right? No, not Frankie.

Is it Frankie? Did I make that up? The lady is Elizabeth, and the dude is Jeff. Oh, right, he's Jeff Franklin, right? That's where the Frank comes from.

Jeff Franken, yeah. So silly. Yeah. So Jeff is toiling away at like different, like he's, he's a medical school dropout. He's a genius clearly, but also socially not well, but he has this lovely relationship with a quote unquote fat young woman named Elizabeth.

I fucking knew I, I, I was enjoying this so much. I didn't make notes, but had I made a note, I would have written this woman is fat. I need to talk to Emily. Oh, obviously, obviously. They put her in this oversized like blazer or something like she's wearing a fucking potato sack getting yelled at for eating six pretzels.

And pretzels like that being the thing. Honey, I have some good advice for you. Don't eat those pretzels. Yeah, pretzels are what makes you fat. That's it.

Don't eat a pretzel. Pretzels and not wearing a jumpsuit that is padded with the marshmallow man. Right. But I get what they were doing, right? Because they were doing, they were going for like this full transformation thing.

Right. And at the time, Patty Mullen was like a playmate. So like to try to pass it, Okay. Okay, guys. I see.

But I mean, at least they didn't put her in like a, like a 1990s fantasy. Honestly, it looked better than Gwyneth Paltrow in Shallow Hell as far as realism goes. So there. Yeah. That's something.

But, but like, it was like, guys, I don't know if I'm connecting this narrative the way you want me to. Right, right. But sure. I'll go with it. I'll go with it.

And Jeff has made a lawnmower for Elizabeth's father. Which, of course, ends up running Elizabeth over dramatically. And this, again, was like, immediately, I'm like, God, Frank and Lauder's a genius. Because we don't see it. We see the lawnmower about to go.

We see the faces of people. We hear the screams. We see blood. And then we cut to a news, like a local news channel story about it. That is pure cinema.

That is five star, give me that clip, let me run it every day. Because it is genius. How... campy, funny, just the language of how, you know, this small town party turned into a bloodbath as guests were fishing out the young woman's fingers from their hot dogs, like whatever it was. But they sang it with a smile, like it's just, it was brilliant. It was really, really fun.

I enjoy late 80s, early 90s kind of takes of like what suburbia was and and everybody has their own flair to it like lynch craven carpenter like everybody was doing these weird domestic things and this is such a fun take on it how kind of like the hyper absurdity of suburbia and of like this detachment from the city where like real life is happening like when did what did we just talk about this with i feel like i just made this point about something else on the show Either way, fascinating. I believe you. But it's just a fascinating view of that kind of suburbia, this like cartoonish suburbia where like the news is like we're reporting on terrible things, but we have to make it sound kind of good.

But we're going to have a smile when we do it. Yeah, it's weird. And I really enjoyed that. It also gave me like Stuart Gordon vibes a little bit. Very much.

Very much and like I thought I loved I loved the the Jeff performance but like Jeffrey Combs would have been like it was giving you could have seen him in the park yep yeah it was giving this kind of like overwrought melodrama kind of yeah performance I liked it a lot like we haven't and that's the thing this movie is like there are 60 minutes of this where it is not about Elizabeth. It is not about the titular Frankenfooker. Yeah, you don't get to her for quite a while. Which I was disappointed about, I will say. Oh, well.

I think some of the pacing takes a little time. Once he finally is assembling her, I felt like that lab scene went on a bit long. Yeah, I can agree with that. Also, this is a 90-minute movie, and the next movie we'll talk about is a very different case of a movie that maybe goes on too long, but maybe had to go on too long. We'll talk about that when we get there.

Um. But yeah, like, I mean, and I think it's James Lawrence was the actor. He just carries that first hour so effectively. He's so watchable. He is so funny.

The, and I love the, like, again, now you're saying Jeffrey Combs and I see it so much, but like the characterization of him, of when, so his girlfriend is, you know, split into a million parts, but he's got her head and he's been keeping her head very safe because he thinks he knows how to, that he can put a body together and reanimate it. Um, so he, uh, is, but, but he doesn't have enough parts to make her whole. So he needs parts and he figures out, well, if I go to the city, I can find some sex workers and I can find the parts I need. And, you know, and I think even the way the movie handles that, it could have, in somebody else's hands, that could have been such a reason to turn this movie off, right?

You could have done that so truly or without, uh, any kind of care or respect for the women. And it's not that this guy respects women per se. It feels very like this guy is probably on a spectrum and this is the thing he can do and is obsessed with. And this is the only woman or only person probably who ever understood him. So he knows like he's, he understands that what he's doing is wrong.

Right. He does feel bad. And one of the things he tries to do is make sure the way he is going to ultimately kill women, the woman or women to make his version of Elizabeth is going to be painless. So I like, I think the movie finds a way to still not, this could have very easily, you could have been very turned off by this character and just wanted to watch this movie and wait for him to die. Like, but I think they have managed to keep him as, I mean, he is a monster.

He's doing terrible things, but I don't feel bad watching it. Well, I noted that, too. I think that he was very. So he the Jeffrey Franken character is is is a kinder, more empathetic character than the actual Victor Frankenstein character. Without a doubt, he's and I did note similar to what you said, like that he.

He didn't he didn't. Him not seeing the humanity in the women wasn't because of their profession or how they lived their life. It was because he doesn't see a certain level of humanity in all living things. It felt like to him, all living things were just meatbags powered by electricity. And he was just manipulating the nature of humanity.

Whereas in other things, it has truly felt like this is now a great excuse or a great reason to punch down. And I thought because he does use the body parts of sex workers, I thought I had assumed it was going to be mean. Because it's almost like, how wouldn't you do that? Yeah, how would you not do it? And somehow they find a way to not do it.

It doesn't do it mean, like... he he's like, well, this, this crack is going to kill them, but my super crack will kill them less painfully, which is an insane thing to say. But I think it highlights again, his disconnection from humanity in general and how it's all just very sciencey to him, as opposed to these women are trash anyways, and no one will miss them. Right. Which I really fucking appreciate. Yeah.

Yeah. 100%. Yeah. It was, it was really great. It, all the girls were really great.

And he, even when things don't go, when things don't go good with the girls, he's very concerned about putting them back together. And, and like that does, again, it doesn't seem realistic, but it really shows like he's not trying, he's not trying to take from people. He's just really wrapped up in his own world of experimentation, which isn't good, but also it's not gendered. No, the more you're saying it, it is so genius. Cause it, I mean, we very recently covered two Frankenstein stories.

And in both of those, you're watching them and you are just so disgusted by the character of Victor Frankenstein or Charles Frankenstein in the one movie. Because they are basically more the characters from Bird Eater. They are men who, yes, have been elevated. And again, don't start from a place of, I want to kill women. I want to assert my authority.

I want to do this. But they get there so quickly because... that's where they're so like geared to go and society allows them to. So why wouldn't they? So if this is what they want, why would they are not going to do everything to get it? And they are like ultimately always come off as the absolute worst of humanity because they have all the privilege.

They have all of the things that should make them leaders and, and, and discoverers and all that. And, but because they don't have a conscience, they do terrible things with it and hurt, many people around them and don't seem to care. And in this scenario where you have just like, yeah, a guy who's smarter than I think people like you probably wish he should be in a way, because clearly he does not have the emotional intelligence to know how to manage what he can do. But he, and again, I don't want to say he's not a bad guy because like, no, he kills like 20 women. He did not mean to kill 20 women.

Yeah. But he, he was going to kill like two or three of them. Like, yes, that was going to happen. Um, but he wasn't doing it in a way that was, um, I don't know, like it, like, I guess it's the difference between like, oh, this guy's a murderer, but this guy was a murderer and a Nazi. Well, okay.

I'm going to save the murderer who wasn't the Nazi before the other guy. Like it's that element. Um, man, our morality skills just move every day. They really do. And I think this, Part of the reason why that's such an easy buy-in is because this is such a cartoonish premise movie.

Everything is like. It's established so quickly, too. Yeah. And the scene when the girls die in mass is so foolish and hyper-absurd. And it's like, you know, the girls...

So basically. Describe, set the scene, Christine, please. Jeff is like, okay, so in order to get Elizabeth back up and running, I only have her head and like a foot and a hand or whatever. I need parts. So how do I get these parts?

He's going to go visit some professionals. He arranges some stuff with some girls and a very terrible pimp who does die, which is good because the right person died in a terrible way. That's a whole other part of this. Okay, sorry. Back to this.

I just got so passionate. So Jeff gets set up with this pimp and these women in this hotel room. And he's measuring them and finding what the best body parts are, which is a very silly lady parts on display thing that is, again, hyper silly. And I honestly couldn't even find the least bit offensive. I enjoyed it.

I thought it was delightful. The man is measuring breasts because he wants to figure out what breasts are going to be right for Elizabeth. And yes, it means we get a lot of shots of boobs in your face, but. It makes sense for what he's doing. It's the movie.

And again, all the women are great. I love all the girls in the scene. But then, so he's like, he actually is about like kind of starting to feel a bit of a moral quandary when they find the super crack. So again, that takes that out of his hand. Jeff doesn't give them the crack.

They find it and take it. Again, I'm not excusing anything this fictional character does, but the movie goes out of its way to be like, the gals just found it. And he is trying really hard. He is doing everything he can. He is screaming.

He is pinned down. So he cannot move. He cannot grab it from them. And he is shouting the entire time. And like, maybe he's shouting the wrong things, but realistically, like what could you shout in that scenario?

If you eat that, you're going to blow up. Like, yes. So it's, it's not going to really, you. Know, there's no way at that point, there's nothing he can do. It's very Willy Wonka in that moment.

Yes. But like, But the thing is, the thing that that moment also highlights is that the film is telling you who the villain is. The villain is the illicit substances on our streets that are putting people in the position to go against their best interests. That is what this movie is explicitly about. It never judges the women for doing sex work.

It does judge the pimp for taking advantage of him. Using the drugs. And for drugging them. And for clearly... Like, they are reliant on him.

Like, this pimp is clearly... I believe he says it at some point. Like, no, I know how to keep my girls. Like, I know... what to do. I worked hard.

He's mad because he's like, you know, they've all died. And he is mad because he worked hard to keep them his by getting them hooked on drugs. So yeah, no, you're right. There's a lesson to this movie. There are.

It's an exceptional movie. So the ladies all, start taking the super crack which is i think what the movie calls it i'm not just calling it that because it's funny but um they start taking it and we see earlier in like a mouse subject or whatever that it will just make you explode like not in a gross way not in like you will which is one of my um uh self-combustion one spontaneous combustion one of my favorite things in a movie it it was really absurd and fun here. And so just like basically like vignette by vignette, like group of girls by group of girls, the women just start exploding. Yes. And like in the most foolish way, like a leg shoots out.

A boob shoots out. Right? Like, and it's not bloody. It's not gory. It's just like a big puff of like, I think there's like, like sparks and stuff.

There are no there definitely are yes and. It's just like it goes from like the woman like and then it clearly freezes and cuts to a mannequin to a mannequin blowing up or like like uh sometimes they look like uh little like metal structures like chicken wire with paper mache around. Them they very much did. And and but it was like relentless like explosion it's like a five minute explosion And I think that's probably, other than when Elizabeth shows up, finally, it's the height of the movie, I think. Again, I love the news story.

Start off with a bang. Exactly. Start strong. Strong start. It really does feel like one of those movies that just drives from fun set piece to fun set piece.

Yeah, the fact that you have Louise Lasser in here, just showing up to... give a kind of kooky performance that apparently was all ADR'd because she was recovering from being ill and, like, couldn't remember her lines, so they just recorded everything after. Like, but as his mother, yeah, like, again, it's one of those things where you're like, oh, you understand fun. Like, it has a spirit about it, this movie, that you can't be offended by it. Because it's so clearly, you know, just trying to have a good time saying things, while doing so, but yeah. Well, I think what I'm really circling as a cinephile myself is how to articulate that sometimes the most interesting feminist progressive stories that you can find are in soft core exploitation and pornography just because those are the subversive places people were allowed to tell those stories.

So to completely write off exploitation cinema as like anti-woman or misogynistic, is absurd because again, this movie goes out of its way to tell you who the bad guys are. And it's never the sex workers in a different movie. A hundred percent. Those women would have been getting what they deserved. Like it's, it's not played like that at all.

And like, yeah, I think it's really fascinating. It very much feels like a, like, Like you, you had said April Ferreira and I said Driller Killer. It very much feels like that. It feels like. But Driller Killer has a meanness to it.

It does. And this is more fun. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. But it feels like an early Wernowski movie too. I can see that. Yeah. It's very like a Chopping Mall Wernowski era.

It very much felt like that. So like if you, I've noticed a lot on, of people I know on Letterboxd that have it and they want to watch, if you haven't pulled the trigger yet, I think that you should. You are 100%, yeah. And again, I think for a lot of people, this probably has been one of those like, oh yeah, I guess it's considered something, right? And yet it doesn't come up often on lists.

It doesn't come up often in podcasts or conversations like I've seen where people are talking about movies. And it's funny too, thinking back to like earlier when we were talking about kind of like the video store and I realized something for me, because I think we all know that VHS box, right? It's a very iconic cover because it's her body. It's very, you know, you can see the font of Frankenhooker. And I realized something, which is, I think in my head, I often, there's a similar VHS cover of a horror film from around the same time that in my head, I probably conflate the two.

Life force. Yeah. Cause life forces cover is also beautiful woman, like front and center her body or this and that and life force, but like is a movie where it is basically like hot chicks, man, they're, they're scary and they'll kill you. It's like, this is so not anything like this is a, this, I mean, if I had to like one other director, I don't think we've mentioned that I realized how much this reminds me of John Waters. this has such a water of sensibility about it. And like camp, but when it's good, like when you say camp and you mean like, but good, sometimes people, I feel like use that word weird.

And I, but like, it's like, it is campy. You're right. It's self-aware. The actors know what they're doing, but they're doing it earnestly, which goes a long way. Yep.

And when I'm also a sucker for any film thing that, where you have a beautiful woman and then she opens her mouth and it sounds like she's from New Jersey. And so when Elizabeth is reborn and she's talking and like the, especially the first part of her kind of wandering, the only thing she's saying is what all the sex workers were saying. So it's just all those repeated lines. And I like that made me laugh so much. And even like Elizabeth is not, necessarily cruel like she's just doing what her body is telling her to um she does end up with a john uh and he dies but he has like like if you're gonna die it seems like that's the way to die right again i.

Think i think that was extremely fascinating so when she hits the streets I think she looks fantastic. And again, I would have become her. Like it would have been, I would have had, it would have been a whole thing. And I'm really glad it didn't, we didn't get one issue. I had with the movie.

If I had like anything you didn't like about it. Yes. When she's on the subway and everybody is reacting to her as if, um, like as if any, I can't even describe anything that it would be because you have been on New York subways. I have been on New York subways folks. We've seen everything. it takes a lot for me to ever actually move to a different car on the subway.

Right. So if Frankie Hooker got on that subway, I'm not like, I'm looking at her and being like, oof, yeah, bad makeup job. But she doesn't look like the most horrific creature in the world. No, I completely agree. And I, so like, I got that the movie was trying to tell me that she was though, because I was like, I guess, but I, What I thought was so funny was that the movie went out of its way to say, like, oh, she's horrific, and people are reacting to her out on the street.

And then this other dude is like, hey, let's go. Yeah. You're beautiful. So I thought, I was just like, oh, look at that. There is a key for every lock, right?

Oh, I love it. I thought that was so strange to make it very clear that she was a monster. But also, like, and then this guy was kind of into it. But yeah, like, attractive to some people. Yeah.

And so funny. The other people she kills are basically like the bad pimps, right? Yeah. Well, so that she ends up being the hero, I would say. Oh yes.

And we will get to, I do. I think you made a great point. People, if you have not watched it yet, please watch it. It is hilarious. It is fun.

It is so much more feminist than you would expect, especially when we get to the ending. But I do want to tell everybody now that we will spoil things. Cause I, I feel like I didn't know how this movie ended. And once I realized that was where it was going, I was like, oh, how have I gone 44 years without realizing this is the ending of the movie? So people, if you haven't watched it, watch it.

But if you have, oh boy. That ending. Okay, so when you talk about the ending, what specific thing are you referencing? That she rebuilds him as a woman. Yes, I do love that.

I think my favorite part of the ending is that when the body parts of the wronged women get to have their way with and kill, I'm saying kill the pimp, because they drag him into the chest freezer. It's such a Brian Usna society type scene, too. It's all these mangled parts that have merged with each other. It's gross. It's so funny.

It's so gross that it's not. It's not realistic. So it's not great. Exactly. Yeah.

But you know that these body parts are going to do terrible things to this terrible man. And it's great. So it's like, I, again, I'm not excusing the fact that a bunch of sex workers blew up and turned into body parts, but that's the movie we're watching. The fact that the movie decided to say, Hey, let's let the ladies get their revenge. Just, it didn't need to be there.

But the fact that it was really, again, speaks to, to like this movie as an entity, as a whole, like it makes choice after choice to be like, grounded in a reality that I want to live in like yeah I really appreciated that like the fact that the pimp gets his is great but the fact that it's at their hand is even better it is or like at their boob. Or foot yes there's literally a basket of boobs and it's funny it's. Because I think the way that it's hand approached, it is aware that we are commodified and that we are our body parts. And I think that that's what the big measuring sequence, I'll call it, really says. We are boiled down to our pieces.

And those pieces are the only thing that have value. I think that this movie really hits that in an obvious way, but in other more subtle ways, too. And I think it's cool. And the exact button on that ending, right, is that you have, and the fact that you have Patti Mullen, who was a playmate, who was a, like, famous centerfold, who gets to be very funny in this movie, and just physically and performance, like, both, like, she can do dialogue, and she is also a very good physical comedian, and gets to have an arc, gets to do stuff, gets, but also gets to, like, I mean, again, that voice, I think that voice is very funny in how it plays out, but that the ending of this movie is here's this man that was trying to make the perfect woman.

And it wasn't like, oh, I'm say boiling this down to a. Movie about a man making the perfect woman is, is unfair. Cause it is like, he's trying to bring back his love. He, he wants to Elizabeth back. And while he's doing it, he might as well make her the way.

And again, this is where like, okay, if you're really drilling into it, what else could we have done here? Well, the fact that they open it with her being quote unquote fat and unhappy with that, that I feel like there was, again, this is also a thing where like, there was also a place where he could have gone the wrong direction where it could have been like, and I'm finally gonna get you that size two body that you always wanted. And it doesn't do that. But there is something to the idea of here's a woman who didn't like her body, who has now had a makeover of her body that is all these parts that aren't hers, but that do fit together really well. And, oh, what does that say?

Is there satisfaction in there? But only it doesn't matter because the very last thing she does is, look, you were dead. And the movie establishes it early on that the only, he can bring back female body parts. He cannot bring back male body parts. So she wants to bring him back because she loves him and he just taking care of her and so on, but she has to make a woman.

And so the last shot of this being a man with his head on a playmate is And, like, the look of terror in his face. And the movie ends there, obviously, because that's the button ending to this movie. But there is a lot there, right? There is this... And I'm sure to some people it's kind of, like, might kind of play as, like, a dumb joke or play as a, like, gender joke.

But it also feels like just a complete twisting of you were a man who played God. And now see what it feels like when... me as a woman plays God on you and your body, and here you are, and now what to do with it. And I think that's really, really subversive. We don't ever really get to reckon what, I mean, the original Frankenstein story is basically the reckoning of what happens when you play God. You create something you can't control, right?

So this doesn't really do that so much because she's not like uncontrollable but it is more right to the heart of it like i took your autonomy and i made decisions on your behalf and now i find that horrifying that someone did that to me well yeah guy that's probably why you shouldn't be so ready to do it to somebody else like these just basic like lessons like just encapsulated it into this almost like uh Twilight Zone style twist. It has like a Tales from the Crypt-ish feel at the end, I think. Right? It does. It does have like, well, fuck you, buddy.

Here we go. Like, oh, okay. And also I think, maybe this is just me looking at things from, you know, rose colored glasses. I feel like Jeff is going to get used to it pretty quickly and I think they'll be happy together. I mean, that's the whole, I'm curious, right?

Like he is such a scientific person. But his reaction was so emotional. So will he? Will he be like, wow, I did such a good job setting this up and she was able to replicate it. I'm a medical marvel.

Or will he be like, oh, this is awful. I'm a monster. Yeah. Sadly, there was no Frankenhooker 2. Damn.

Yeah. What a shame. It's such a good movie. It really is. I'm so glad you picked it.

I'm so glad I finally watched it. What an experience. Two film lovers of this age seeing it for the first time. See, this is the good stuff, everybody. And I think maybe I wouldn't have not understood it.

Like, I'm not a genius. It's not what I'm saying. But I don't know if I would have synthesized it quite the same had I seen it when I was 25, which is probably when I would have seen it for the first time other than now. So I'm glad because I feel like I got what I wanted out of it now in a way that I don't think I could have before. Yeah, it's one of those weird things about aging.

It kind of keeps happening to me where... I think we talked about this a lot. I know we always kind of... Everything leads back to the street story. But it is true of that being the epitome of a movie that I feel like I watched at the right time in life.

And had I watched it a year earlier, three years earlier, ten years earlier, it just... I was a different person when I watched it and it, I was the exact in the frame of mind where this movie hit me. So like. It hit my soul. Cause my soul had been open to it at that point.

And I mean, and sometimes it's that it's a very deep experience where you've gone through something and this, you know, and, and a piece of art speaks, speaks to that. But sometimes it's just like, I don't know, in. My twenties, I might not have been able to look past the whole idea of him killing a Or I would have been kind of too caught up in the like graphics of what those like little body parts look like. And just today sitting down, not knowing what I was getting and just realizing quickly, oh, I'm watching like John Waters adjacent horror comedy and this is going to be a good time. And oh my God, it's so smart.

It's smarter than I thought it was going to be. What a day. What a world. Truly. What a gift.

Yeah. Because I feel like if we got this right now, it would be like, oh my gosh, this is the bomb for my soul. That I needed. I can't believe this movie got made. Oh, what a miracle.

So it's nice that I can just travel back in time and find that sometimes too. Agreed. All right, folks, go watch Frankenhooker, obviously. It's on Shudder and it looked really good. It did.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like it was really crisp. And like just an attractive looking movie too. It is an attractive looking movie. It's the.

The visuals, the opening has that color palette that is so like almost Tim Burton-esque in a way. Like it felt like Edward Scissorhands-y where it just, the mom is wearing this bright yellow dress and he's sitting at the kitchen table with a purple eyeball in a jar. And from that, like immediately from that point on, it's just visually a fun movie. Like Henenlotter understood why, I don't have a lot of money. I don't have big sets.

So I'm just going to make things purple where they shouldn't be purple and it's going to look cool. And it works. Yeah, I agree. I think it's really great. I'm going to have to try to track down a special edition release of it or something.

Like this is something you own. It's one to own, definitely. Yeah. All right. So I want to take a quick break and come back and talk about Bird Eater.

Let's do it. All right. The unofficial sequel to Frankenhammer. Okay, so we're going to travel ahead some 33 years, travel far, some 6,000. Miles, and.

To Australia for 2023's Bird Eater. Directed and written by Jack Clark and Jim Weir. I would like to know first, what made you pick this movie? I had seen people talking about it when it first came out. Or when it was more readily available for the first time.

And I thought it was really interesting and I noted it. Mm-hmm. But then I lost track of it, I think. And then I was surprised to see it on Shudder. I guess I didn't realize when that happened.

So I was like, oh, I would check this out. But I really didn't know much. Except that, like, who was saying what about it? Like, one of my favorite Letterboxd reviews from somebody I know was, this is my worst nightmare. And I was like, oh, my God, what actually happens in this thing?

Right, right. Because from the synopsis, you really just get the sense that it's this couple that go and have this like um joint bachelor bachelorette party and then it. Feels like it's going to be a slasher you know you. Know like who even knows and even if it's a psychological thing like what exactly do we do we have on our hands so like i had no idea what i was going into with this movie yeah and it's funny to. Say well and here's the thing i think most of the time the advice for any movie is like going blind, right?

Go in knowing nothing about a movie. So you can really experience and just let it wash over you. I feel like this movie is kind of an exception to that because I, I will tell you, I watched this movie twice. I watched it last week after I got my COVID vaccine. I, for me, I have the same reaction every time, which is about a day later.

I get really tired. And I, that happened to me. I like, and it knocks me out so much so that like, I, I can't like, I end up usually, um, staying home and sleeping or whatnot. So that happened to me. I ended up waking up at like 10 AM on a Thursday.

I took the day off from work and I figured I'm like, okay, like, um, you know what? Good time to sit down and watch bird eater. And I wanted to just turn it on. I knew nothing about it. I saw the poster, I saw the little subheading and that was it.

And I watched the movie and I was like, I, I do not understand what I'm watching. And, um, I tried to figure out too, I'm like, how much of it was, was I still just a little bit loopy and goopy from the COVID vaccine? Was I just tired? Because the movie ends and I'm like, oh, okay. That wasn't at all what I thought it was going to be.

Cause it, it really, I would, I guess this could maybe be called a thriller, but it's, it's not, if you go in expecting it, because the movie also builds in a way where you think it's going to take a turn. And it is, this is a disturbing movie. And I think there's a lot about it that does qualify as like, yeah, this is scary shit, but I think it does it a disservice by, by expecting a horror movie because you just don't realize until you're an hour, 48 minutes into an hour, 58 minute movie that that just isn't the genre it's in. So I kind of like, I watched it and I, It was one of those cases where I'm like, I have no idea where I stand in this movie. I feel like clearly there was some really good filmmaking done.

There's some really good performances. I think I get what it's saying. I think it's saying a lot. But also, I don't think I liked watching it. So I decided, I'm like, I'm going to try to give it another go.

And I watched it in parts over the last couple of days, just kind of where I could find some time watching it. I know I also use this time to always complain about my different streaming issues. But one of my streaming issues is that I have... In my kitchen, which is where I spend a lot of time, I can't get Shudder on my kitchen TV. So I have to watch it in a certain room when I'm doing other things.

So that's on me. But so I did watch it again. And it was a very different experience watching it, knowing what to look for, because it did then read as like, oh, I get this movie. I feel much more confident about understanding this movie now. And I think it's, again, a very well done movie.

I know my initial viewing was hurt by walking into a movie that I didn't expect to get. I can see that. So I had a slightly similar kind of experience, but a little different. So I put it on and I was like, immediately, tonally, it was a little bit different. But like right at the front, somebody has a Wake and Fright poster on their wall.

And I was like, oh, is this going to pull a Wake and Fright poster? And so I kind of thought it was just going to be a vibey descent into madness. And it kind of is. Kind of? Yeah.

But I haven't seen Wake and Fright in a minute. And the Wikipedia page for this explicitly cites Wake and Fright so there might be more similarities than like I can ever remember but like that it's alone set me up for the tone like when I saw that poster I was like oh is this what this is so I assumed people were gonna be like there was gonna be a lot of fighting and yelling and drugs and maybe not reality that's what I was expecting and I think since you watched it twice maybe you can help me understand a couple things that I I thought we're going to do something that didn't. I guess. I don't know why I'm being so fucking coy. We both watched it.

Yeah, no. And I think, I guess it's a case where I'd say like to anybody on the fence, like this is a good movie. And I think like these, I'm now like, again, having watched twice, like I'm really intrigued to see what these filmmakers do next. I think they are clearly very thoughtful. I think they have a lot on their minds.

I do. I don't think this is a perfect movie. I think, I do think it's way too long. I think this movie needed to shave off time because that's part of what made it really hard for me the first time watching. I'm like, it just keeps going.

So I do recommend it for people out there, but go in knowing you are not watching a horror movie. You are not watching a supernatural movie. You are watching a movie and it's very much a like. I don't think this is a spoiler. This is a movie about toxic men.

Like that's what this is about, which. Maybe you're not necessarily in the place for, but it's one of those things that like, you're kind of always in a place for it because it's the world. So I recommend it. I think we are going to like, we're going to spoil it just because we have to talk through a lot of it. And the weird thing about spoiling it is like not much happens in a big way.

And maybe that is the spoiler because it feels like it is building and about halfway through the film, when you get to the dinner party scene, right? When they're having a toast, it feel like I thought I'm like, Oh, this is going to turn into, um, rabbit. I don't know. Something is happening here. She poisoned the food, this, that, that.

And it's this like really intense scene that is building, building, building. And it just, it stops. And it, the movie just keeps moving on because like you realize, Oh yeah. Like there's a constant, um, swells of confrontation that then get diffused into, by different conversations where a character justifies their actions or justifies his friend's actions or like whatever keeps happening in a way. Like the question is, does anything change after this?

And I think that is like the question we're left with. So why don't we like talk through the story a bit? Cause maybe that will be a good way of like figuring out the questions we both had. Well, I think something, and I get why, because like you said, not a lot happens, but like, but we get a lot of information and the information is given to us in a very inconsistent way, timed out very deliberately to what the filmmakers want. And, and done.

And again, this is one of those hindsight watching a second time, um, where I can watch and say like, these guys are good writers. Cause there are no, the exposition that you have to have in this movie. Cause you have a lot of people, you have a lot of characters, you have a lot of relationships, um, um where and it gives you the chance to be able to say like oh how like what how do you know him oh let me explain like and it doesn't it comes off really naturally and he's very helpful to piecing together all these relationships well. It was it was written like how people would actually talk yes like john you know you've been my brother all my life and i haven't seen you for five years but this is over the top exactly like it wasn't that no but i think i don't i don't think this is necessarily a complaint even but like uh sometimes maybe i needed to know a little bit more to have the impact that you want at the time that you were showing it to me i guess sure so so like basically if you start at the start it's this couple that's getting married irene and.

Louis irene is um i forget the actress's name you would recognize her from the pit she's wonderful i don't watch. That show so i don't know any of these people But I will say I love Australian cinema, and that girl was British, I believe. Here's the funny thing. The actress is British. The actress is Australian.

She was playing British. And on the pitch, she plays American. So she is very good at accents. She did a good job with the British accent, especially around a lot of Australian people. I feel like that would be hard to maintain.

So they're a couple, and it doesn't seem to be going well. But you don't really know why at that point, right? And then it's, like, really tense and weird and... like oh okay this doesn't seem great and then they're gonna do this in the outback uh middle of nowhere style bachelor party and he's bringing her there for some reason and and it's all very muddy but you find out that like their relationship is extremely abusive and they have a terrible past together but that's doled out over the course of the movie and you kind of only see the inciting incident at the end which was that he got she hit she hit him well. First she was breaking up with him right oh so yeah right because at the start of this movie they are engaged and it seems very clear that like she is especially attached to him and um and again this is one of the things you want when i watch the second time there's, like, an opening montage of the two of them, like, falling in love, and then, like, waking up in bed together, and him going out, and, like, being like, I'm sorry, and her being sad, and, and, like, when you watch it the second time, you realize, like, immediately, oh, he, like, how to, like, right from the bat, this is a toxic relationship, because whenever he leaves, he always, he lies to her every time, right, he says, like, I'm sorry, I have to go to work, and then you see him go to a driving range, I'm sorry, I have to visit my dad, and then you see him go visit his friend and drink, like, so it's this constant right off the bat like he's lying to her in this relationship.

Um they like throughout then like what i also like is that the character the other characters are kind of finding out more about this relationship. As the movie goes on. Some of them know it, right? Charlie, who's the, like, Christian friend, seems to, like, know all this and it's fine. Whereas Dylan, like, did not know all of this backstory.

And Grace, Charlie's girlfriend, did not know that, like, the extent of some of the stuff that Louis is doing to Irene. So there is a lot of, like, characters learning in the moment and reacting to it. And then other characters then justifying it. So the. reveal you get is that they, so Irene is like, she's there on like a student visa or a visa, right? So she's, she's in Australia.

She is from England. There is a line said like very, very subtly, but it's in there at least twice of other characters saying to her like, oh, well, I guess when you get married, like you'll be able to stay here. We know you like it here. Like that, oh, is she marrying him for her visa to be, or for citizenship? the flashback, you find out that they were seemingly about to break up, or she was kind of trying to break up with him, and kind of does break up with him. And he's at a party, he's drunk, he's clearly an asshole.

You realize very quickly that Louis is not a good guy. And she is driving away, he is drunkenly wandering the streets, and she hits him with her car, and almost kills him, he barely recovers. And she is clearly, we don't see this part, but you gather she was incredibly guilt-stricken. And he was able to use this to basically physically tether her to him by drugging her so that she has separation anxiety when they're not together. Yeah, I don't I don't think that I think he I don't I don't he so I think that situation is a little bit more complex than that.

But yeah. I don't think the drugging gave her the separation anxiety. I think the separation anxiety was probably very real, but he is absolutely abusing her and lying to her. And he is giving her a drug that is way too strong. That is not the film alludes.

It is not made for human consumption necessarily. And yeah, it's, it is, she doesn't even know reality anymore. I think is super important because what may have started is, general like anxiety about somebody because you know they almost died and you did it I can imagine that would be like it now just becomes she is addicted as a crutch it's not even really for anything anymore she doesn't want to exist in a world where he doesn't exist and I think that's the perfect allegory for emotional abuse like it's to the point where her world isn't a real world unless he's present in it So she needs to medicate until, so she's not present until he comes back. And at one point she describes it and it's absolutely chilling.

Like I just popped the pill and when I wake up, he's back. And it's like, that's fucking nuts. That's awful. Yes. It's really awful.

He is absolutely unrepentant, awful. And then they heavily allude to the fact that he essentially date raped her when they first met. Yep. Which is like, I think, probably a fact of the story i don't know that we see it in like a flashback style you saw it twice so you'd be able. To yeah we don't we we don't see it we see a little like the flashback there's like all kind of flashes of like him on the beach looking at her she's drinking um i think there's like again like the little clues that you understand on the second viewing um one of them that is really fascinating is the way um basically like how louis handles alcohol and doesn't right?

So when Louis, you see like early on, like when he's with Murphy, like there's like early on in the montage, he's at his friend's house and he's drinking. That's fine. When he is at the party with everybody, very quickly you realize like he's not drinking. And there's like a very awkward scene where Dylan's trying to give him a beer and he's like, no, I don't want any. He's like, well, it's a bachelor party.

You have to drink. And it's like awkward on both sides because like you, nobody ever wants to watch somebody try to push alcohol on someone who's saying no. Um, But then like, again, as you keep like, like pick up the clues from it, you realize like, yeah, Louis is like often uses, basically he's like abusing alcohol in a, by not drinking it. Because during the toast, right? So there's this dinner toast and Dylan stands up.

And again, I think Dylan's like the important driver, a lot of things in terms of like what comes out. And Dylan is talking about the first time when Louie and Irene met. And Louie said, like, I'm going to fuck that girl. And then Dylan says, like, and she was drunk and Louie wasn't because we know Louie, he doesn't really drink. And you realize, like, because later, like, immediately after that, Louie, like, takes a beer and is drinking.

And you see that, like, Louie is basically often sober when people just don't realize he is. And it lets him get away with stuff. And it makes you wonder what other shit has he gotten away with? by the presentation of like, and again, Dylan says it like the three of them. And this is where I think some of it is like, we're Americans watching an Australian film. And there's certain things like I didn't pick up on.

Like I did have to like research a little bit. Cause like, I didn't get that they were all rich kids. Like it doesn't really like seem obvious to me watching it, but I guess like, it's very clear from some of the language they use that these are private school kids that Charlie, Louie and Dylan are, where I grew up together, probably like all from like similar backgrounds. And this was something, a quote I pulled from one of the directors saying like, they wanted all the men to look similar, or like those three guys to look similar. Everybody else in the ensemble would be othered from them in some sense, whether or not it was their gender, their sexual orientation, their social position, or their height.

So like they very much wanted these three guys to clearly be like a different connection in class. But Dylan says, like, I was the funny one, Charlie was the smart one, and Louis was the nice one. And clearly he was not, and he never was. But that was his thing. That is the way he gets whatever it is he gets, is by appearing that way.

And just, I don't know, like, when you watch it and, like, pay attention to Louis and alcohol, it really does unlock a certain sense of, like, realizing what a manipulator he is. Yeah, that was a really, I think, too often in stuff about bad men. I think maybe because some people can't understand nuance, they're like cartoon characters of like bad men. And I think it's interesting to have this nuance. nuanced version of like what what what an abuser what a manipulator what what a bad person of this age can look like. Right and it's much more powerful when they you know they look like the kid from obsession or they look like louis in this movie like that is it's it's this weird i feel like weirdly what was it like seven years ago when we had that era of good for her horror yeah right like somehow it took us that long to get to like why we were good for herring because like, this is the like era of, Oh my God, these white men are very toxic.

Yeah. Yeah. And, and like, I love, and you're right, this isn't really horror. And I think if it was, we would maybe get these broader archetypes of like, well, this guy or like a clear, like sexual assault scene or something, you know, to be like, this is a bad guy. But I think part of the movie is, unraveling what a, what a air quotes, bad guy looks like and how it can take many forms and it can look very different depending on where you're sitting at any given moment.

Because I think we actually, and I'm so sorry, I forgot her name and I don't have it up, but the, the fiance or Irene, Irene. Yes. I think we realize we watch Irene realize in real time, that he's not a good guy. And, and I would love to hear your read of the very end, because again, you saw it twice, but I feel like that truly is like the, she knows he's bad. And is she going to do anything about it?

And yeah, And I think that that that's part of it, too, like being in an abusive, toxic or manipulative relationship. It's not just as easy as going like, oh, this is bad. I'm going to hit the brakes like you're in it now. Like, what can you do? And it almost felt like in that moment she was acknowledging that she could truly change her life forever and completely get rid of him or she could stick with what's comfortable and kind of awful.

Yeah, no, I think that is exactly the read. Yeah. I, cause I didn't, I didn't get the ending at first. And I, and I, and I think it is, it's deliberately ambiguous. You do not know what decision she's making, but you understand she has two decisions to make and she's going to make one of them, right?

Either, because it ends and you see that he is not going to stop doing. What he was doing. He's, he is, he takes her water and puts a pill in it. And she opens her eyes and looks directly at him. And it, Like, and you don't need, and the other thing too was like trying to figure out what he's thinking in that moment.

Is he thinking, oh fuck, or is he thinking like, oh, she, she's accepting it because she takes the water and she takes the pills and doesn't, and just like holds them and looks them and he gets out of the car and her like you see her just her eyes and her looking and i mean her choice is i can keep taking the pills like this is my life now um or he left and like the fact that the last shot is her looking at the keys in the dashboard and I can drive away and get on this ferry and run away and never have to deal with this asshole again. We don't know. And I think one of the other things the filmmakers actively said was that this was a movie about toxic masculinity and abusive relationships in Australia.

And yeah, the nature of abusive relationships is usually not that they all end with you know, the victim saying, like, I see what happened and I'm walking away. Like, boy, it'd be nice if that happened, but it doesn't in most cases and for a million different reasons. And so I don't know what her choice is at the end. I think it is deliberately left up to us to decide how we want that to go or what we expect how it would go. You know, she has, like, other chances, right?

Because we see the character Sam, who is her kind of ex, like, and again, like, this is another, like, Louis manipulation power play is he invites her ex-boyfriend to their bachelor party, which is a pretty weird fucking thing to do. And why does he do that? It feels very much that it's a power play, right? It's there to show, to remind her of probably like the guilt of that night, because part of the whole instigating event of the car accident was that Sam was there and they were flirting and he confronted that and was really pissed off about it. So it's one of those, like, oh, how can you look at this guy without remembering what you did to me?

And the other part is simply, like, and see, I got her. She's mine. She's marrying me. And so Sam, like, doesn't want to marry her. Like, Sam's just, like, having fun.

Like, he'd much rather just, you know, go party somewhere. And he, like, is giving her the out of saying, like, you know this is fucked up. Like, you know you don't have to do this. This is really wrong. But we don't see, like, their final conversation, which makes sense because it's not, And I like that.

It's not like, oh, I was able to leave with him and be safe. I found this ally who could take care of me. Because most women in abusive relationships don't have that ally. Those allies get alienated very much the way Louis is trying to alienate Sam. Yeah, I think it does a lot of really subtle and realistic things.

I think The end when she's in the car and it keeps cutting back to her looking between the bathroom and the keys. I think about how in the beginning of the movie when we start doing just the clear repetition of her days and how the keys are centered as her cue to when he's leaving. It's like a Pavlovian reaction to the keys. And I think that that's, as somebody who's been abused, you do pick up on these little cues that cue you to something. The fact that something bad's about to...

A bad feeling is about to happen. Something maybe that you don't want to experience is coming your way. And the keys very much felt like that to me. Yeah, that's a good catch. It almost felt...

It felt like her looking at them were almost like this potential for reclamation. Like, I can keep these keys from being my captor and they can be my savior now. I just need to make that choice. And I don't think it hurts that we don't know her choice. Yeah, agreed.

Because... I think the point is that in getting out of an abusive relationship, I think is seeing that choice over and over and over again and learning to get each time that you should get closer to making it. So that could just be the first time she really thought I could make this stop. I could change this. And maybe she doesn't do it this time and she does it three times from now or whatever, but like, it's all really well done and very subtle and very uncomfortable.

All of it's really uncomfortable and unpleasant and stuff, but not like unpleasant in like the way, like an invisible or like something with a really hard to watch. That's a really good point because it isn't. Like there's no, the unpleasantness is like watching men tie themselves in knots to defend their behavior. It is not in watching a woman be abused. Like we really don't, see that aspect of it like we we don't really see irene's face when louis is doing some of the things he's doing i think like what one of the things we see is um the like the other romantic relationship in the movie is grace and charlie right and um i think like again what the second time realizing like what a how charlie is written so well as such a fucking monster yeah um like because so they're the Christians.

And so that's like, part of it is that like, they are not their virgins. They, you know, haven't slept together. And of course you find out like, yeah, it's like, yeah, no, she, she is, but he, he didn't. And he, he lied to her about that. But the, the thing with Charlie is how like, there's a scene very early on when they first kind of get to the party and there's drugs floating around.

And like, I don't even like, I don't need the drugs in the movie. Like there's a whole like other thing going on with the drugs that I kind of don't, I still don't really understand. Um, But, like, most of the guys are taking drugs. And Grace comes in and realizes, and she's like, whoa, what the fuck? And Charlie's like, I didn't, are you saying I took drugs?

I did not take drugs. And it's this, like, really intense gaslighting scene where he's looking her in the eye and just lying to her. And we know he's lying. And you see her feel like shit because he has made her feel like shit by saying, how can you think I would do this to you? I wouldn't lie to you.

Look at me. Look at me. You know me. And, like, that is, again, another case of this, of men just, like, finding ways to abuse women in ways that aren't necessarily what you think of when you think of abuse. And like later when kind of the first, Charlie is constantly defending Louis, right?

He is constantly to both Murphy and to Dylan, like saying, and there's a great scene where like he is, he has no words to justify it, but he is talking so much. And again, this is like a case where like, you can see like there's really good filmmaking going on here because it happens a few times where a character speaks too much, right? Like, and I know like I'm guilty of this often, like probably right now, where you just keep like, you know you have something to say and you cannot vocalize how to say it, but you think if you just keep going, you're going to get there and you don't. So you just kind of trail off at a certain point. And he does that to, I think Murphy when he's, or I think maybe it's Dylan early on when he's trying to defend him. then, like, two scenes later, I think it's, like, after, like, it's a scene with him and Louis, where Louis is saying to him, like, maybe I'm doing the wrong thing, and Charlie is, like, again, like, trying to talk him out of it, of, like, no, no, no, you didn't do, like, you didn't do anything wrong.

It's, oh, no, no, no, okay, I missed a step. There was a step where I think Louis stands up, I think it might be at the toast and like kind of goes off on like, no, I love her. It's this, it's that. And then Charlie says like, well said, man, which is really clever because it's so clear that Charlie has no idea how to say anything. Yeah.

Yeah. He's, he's a really, uh, it, he's an interesting character because he is more like outwardly dislikable or easy to dislike. And I think, I think it's, it's fun to see like, the different versions or the different levels of life. And, and he, he's a very uncomfortable character and he is a very, I don't know. He's, he's not aggressive, but he is so, he's so in her face about, about what he's like, he thinks she's stupid, I guess.

And, and like, that is its own level of like uncomfortable to watch because like, I don't want to watch him like lie, clearly lied. this woman. And I think that that is one of the reasons why it's so interesting because it's uncomfortable, but nothing happens, but it's because we're all waiting for these men to decide to do violence. It all just hinges on the moment. One of them decides that now I'm doing violence and it's wild to be so hyper aware that you're waiting for that because it's just like, that feels like some situations in life, right? Like Like everybody just keeps their mouth shut because they're afraid.

Right. We don't want this guy to go off. Yeah. This is when, and it feels like, and I think what's so fun too, is it feels like that character is just Dylan, but it's not. And it's not at all.

I love that. I think the more, as much as I'm complaining about the length, there's another aspect here where I realize every character is here for a reason. Yeah. And they all have something to, like their presence says something about what this film is trying to say. And, like, yeah, Dylan is your typical, like, obnoxious, um, bratty, always saying the wrong thing.

Like, he's the guy that you expect to, like, not want your girlfriend to go out with. But you, like, but this movie absolutely tells you, like, Dylan's the only honest one here, kind of. Yep. Like, and yet it even gives, like, with all that said, where you kind of have Dylan as, like, this weird voice of, like, maybe the, like along with Sam, maybe the most noble voice in there. You also have whatever is going on with him and Murphy.

Right. So Murphy is like the other, like the only other character of color who you gather, like, okay, clearly he's Louie's friend from some other lifetime, right. Right. And you don't really know how they know each other, but obviously like Murphy doesn't know the rest of everybody else. And Murphy, like the film also, like you see how he is treated.

Like in the beginning, Dylan goes to get beers for everybody. Like, but, but by everybody, we mean the other two guys, he doesn't bring a deal, a beer or two. Murphy doesn't bring a beer to the girls. And like throughout, there's just like at one point when Dylan, when Murphy throws up at when they were like having the toast and And nobody even stops. Like they don't even look at him.

They just keep going. Um, and so there's a moment towards the end where like Murphy, I believe, like it seems to constantly be like kind of hitting on Dylan and you can't really tell with Dylan if he's into it or not. Um, and there's like a conversation they have at the end where it's like Dylan kind of says like, I like this, like, cause Murphy's kind of saying like, you know, these are bad guys that you're friends with. And Dylan's like, yeah, but what else am I going to do? Like, this is all I know.

And there's a moment where like Murphy kind of extends to him like, oh, like want to come out with me? And Dylan kind of looks at him like, wait, really? And then Murphy kind of makes it a joke instead and says like, I was just trying to get a ride home. And Dylan's like, yeah, okay, sure. And Murphy goes, gets his stuff.

And when he comes back, Dylan is driven away. So even that, like, it's like Dylan isn't going to change. Like Dylan is still going to be like, it's that other nice guy thing of, oh, I might not be the monster, right? I didn't date rape a woman. I have not brainwashing a woman. but I know my friend is doing it and I'm still going to be his friend.

Like, well, yeah, that's some, the bar is in hell shit. Right. I think that the fact that he is kind of the male moral compass within the group is telling in and of itself. Cause he's not that he's, he's just less bad than everybody else. Exactly.

Yeah. He's just less manipulative, I guess. He's very, he's very clear in, in how he's crappy and, But that doesn't make him any less crappy. But just among this group, it makes him slightly less dangerous. But when you first show up and you first see it, like, meet the group, he does feel like the one that's going to kill us all.

He's the one that's going to have the weird knife and he's going to, like, that is that character. Yeah, he's going to piss off the local and cause all the problems. But, like, he kind of just stays that guy whereas everyone else shows their true colors and i think it's so weird to have your baseline be a kind of shithead anyway yeah yeah okay so i have a question please it's about the painting the painting the big painting that everybody keeps standing in and in front of and it looks like it's like a like a big open field and then there's one person standing in it And it kind of looked like Marilyn Manson from the Mechanical Animals era. I don't know if anybody knows what I'm talking about. But when he dressed like an androgynous skin suit alien.

Uh-huh, yeah. So I guess it kind of looked like Marilyn Manson naked in the field. But then later on, they have the sex worker stripper lady van. And it kind of looks like that. Yeah.

So I was like, is there a ghost in this? I don't think there's a ghost in it. But what was up with that painting? It was so weird. Why did they keep showing it?

You know, I watched the movie twice and I kind of have no idea what you're talking about, but I totally believe you. It's one of those things I wouldn't have noticed because I don't remember album covers. I don't know music. It just looked like they centered Irene in front of it at least once in a really big scene. Yeah, I believe you.

It was in the house and it was in one of the main rooms that they were filming in. And it was just this big sprawling painting of like an open field with one tiny figure in the middle of it. And it was such an odd painting. And then there was that door that Louis didn't want anybody to go in. Like there was just, and he like double checked to make sure it was locked.

So I really thought there was something else going on. Like there was like a ghost or they were going to sacrifice somebody. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, the whole first viewing of it, I was waiting for, like, okay, so what's the reveal?

Like, who is it? Like, what is it? Is it from the land? Is it this? And the, like, again, where I'm saying I wouldn't, at first I'm like, yeah, we need to cut 10 minutes, and then I'm like, yeah, but none of the character stuff.

The sort of where the movie gets a bit surreal, right? So basically, like, a lot of them do drugs, and there's maybe, like, 10 minutes of crazy drug antics, including the the sex worker or because like you're not really sure what she's doing there if she's real it's unclear yeah it's very weird yeah it feels like something like yeah Dylan probably hired her to come out and but what actually happens we don't know and like that part to me like still feels like I can just take that out I don't need that because I think this isn't a movie about oh we all got really fucked up and then had to confront who we were like no you had to confront who you were before you all got fucked up The getting fucked up kind of almost feels like it was part of the original like vision for the movie of like, okay, we're going to, you know, it's a relationship story.

We're exploring these themes and everything's going to come out in this like drug orgy. And then we're going to kind of denouement figure out how it ends. And I think what happened was like the movie was so strong, like just the character scenes and the every performance here is great. I think they all play off each other really well. like all of that is so good that I didn't need any of the like creepy, weird naked lady dancing. Like that to me actually almost like I would almost say take that out.

And I think this movie would be tighter and would work better. But I also understand why, like, this is probably the reason you made the movie and why you got funding for it and why you have it on shutter as opposed to it being like a movie that gets lost on Hulu somewhere. That's a fair point. I, I, I didn't really think about it in terms of, like, maybe this couldn't or shouldn't have been in it. But I will say that that is the exact type of thing that made me, that I guess distracted me.

And made me think. Like, what else is happening that I'm not getting? Right, right. But, I mean, maybe that could just be, like, the kind of, like, stressful, over-drugged, late-at-night surrealness that they were just going for of the experience. Yeah.

Yeah. Which is fine. I think because that specifically that like van to fuck a lady in a field scene is so strange and surreal. But like it actually like predicates a lot of other things happening. Like it really it like pushes things over the edge for Charlie and his girlfriend.

And like not that that actually goes anywhere. Right. Because in the end, she's like she stays in that relationship. Yeah, I think the whole thing, I think, is just an exercise in showing how far we can push people and still not break out of potentially toxic things. Yeah.

Which in that way, it's like a really interesting exercise. But I want to know what's up with that van and that painting. Yeah, I mean, I really, I should just kind of watch it one more time just for the painting. Look for the painting. I'm just going to look for the painting.

I could just be, I could be looking for something that's not there and it could have just been a cool painting. Oh no, I'm sure it was. I'm sure it was intentional. And the fact that it stuck so much in your brain doesn't mean like, oh, it didn't for me because of this. Like I somehow missed it.

I multitask a lot when I'm doing this. Although this is a movie too, you have to watch for subtitles because not just like, oh, the accents. No, it's just the sound mixing is tough because the dialogue is quiet and they talk fast and there's like a lot of kind of chaotic scenes of talking. And you do kind of need to hear or see every word to really kind of catch some of what's going on. Oh, and the subtitles are fun because then that means you get some like random ones about the sound cues, including my favorite that I noted.

Demented kookacabra laughing. Yeah, they were. Weird because the music was really loud too. So I kept having to up and down. Oh, I hate up and downing.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, definitely that. But it was. It helps too, though, because there is a lot of mumbling. Yes, very much.

So Jack Clark and Jim Weir's next film, I was curious what they have in production. They are working again as directors on something together called Blue Bottle. And here is the synopsis. Three local dropouts compete with older men for private school girls' attention during the last night of a beach graduation party, exploring class divides, consent, and identity. So they clearly have a lane.

They're intrigued. Like, I always get hesitant when I discover new, especially male filmmakers or artists, and I'm like, maybe new guys are cool. But it seems like they obviously are thoughtful. And I'm really glad I watched this the second time. And I'm not saying everybody go out and watch this movie knowing you're going to have to watch it again.

But I think it was a case where I watched it and didn't really like get what i was supposed to get saw some interesting like write-ups about it where i was like i need to go back in and when i did i it really clicked for me and i think like these guys are they made a good film and this is impressive stuff and with a lot to think about. I definitely agree. It's like, like you had alluded to, it requires your attention in a specific way. And like, you kind of have to be in it. Sometimes I'll watch movies and like Zach will wander in from being done with his stuff for the day.

And he'll just kind of plop in. Sometimes I'll, sometimes I'll pause it and give him a rundown. This one came on, he came out. This was, I was literally halfway through. He came out.

I paused it. I said, I'm just going to shut this off because this is, Not, no. Yeah. I can't, I don't even know where to start here. I'll, I'll hit, I'll hit the rest of it tomorrow.

We're not going to do that. This is for me, not for you. Because there's like, I'm not going to be able to catch you up in any meaningful way because I still don't really get what fully is happening. So it, but I think sometimes like I do like those movies and it's good to force yourself. That sounds like a weird way to say it, but like occasionally this is, this is not, not challenging.

It's a somewhat challenging movie. And I would say for the past six years, I've casually avoided some challenging films. Yeah, nothing wrong with that, justifiably. Kind of where I'm at. But, like, I think this is a decent one because it's...

Especially if you like a meaty script. Yeah. It's not showing you the horrors. You don't have to see the horrors. Nope.

But it has, like, a real whole buffalo kind of weird, meaty story. And I think it's definitely worth checking out. Yeah, I agree completely. It is. It's exploring things.

It is clearly thoughtful about them and trying to challenge them and trying to bring them to light. And yet it finds a way to do that where the horror is there. What is happening to Irene is fucking awful. But it does not... First of all, it gives her kind of a little bit of agency of maybe she'll make decisions.

But also, this could be done in so many ways that also makes you feel gross and that an exploitive. And this does not do that. It's like very like, I don't know, it's really smart in how it does it. I think it's the easiest thing I can say. It's a smart movie.

It really is. It's smart in its weird subject matter to be treated this way. Yeah. So I really do appreciate that. Yeah.

Yeah. Cool. All right. Well, that was two. Okay.

And so how are they connected? Well, let's see. They're both on Shudder. They both end in ER, right? They both have a lingual. um uh thing they are both about a man kind of carving a woman in a way right trying to to very much make a woman into the vision he is looking at um yeah and um that's probably most of.

It yeah i mean i think i wouldn't have thought that the main character of frankenhooker would have more respect for uh women and humanity than than the guy in this bird eater movie But it is strange how they're both kind of about patriarchal society. Very much. Misogyny. This idea of also, I think, a man convincing the woman he's the smarter one in the relationship, right? That he's the one that takes care of things.

Yeah. I think that's interesting to look at them from... with the amount of time in between, would you say 33 years? That sounds right. Like, because I almost feel like what we're dealing with, like the, like our guy in Frankenhooker was smart. He was just misguided, but now we just have a bunch of wild masculine egos running around who don't have anything to back that up.

Yeah. It's, it's weird. Yep. What a, what a strange time to be alive. I'm going to take my dream in this scenario where we're going to make a sequel.

That connects both films. I think what has to happen is that Dylan somehow befriends Jeff Franken from Frankenhooker. I feel like the two of them could maybe make each other a little better. I also feel like Dylan would be into Franken's new body. So you kind of mentioned it, but This isn't just curiosity now, not movie talk.

But I got the feeling that Dylan's character was either closeted or bi or bi-curious. Yeah. There was something sexually. Well, because Murphy is hitting on him hardcore from the beginning. And it would have been very easy to have Dylan shut it down.

But Dylan seems charmed and intrigued by it. Um, and I mean, you have a character, like Sam is, um, openly like pansexual, right? Sam is like, yeah, I sleep with men, I sleep with women. I just don't want to commit to any of them. So like, that's there.

It's not like, cause you also have like Christians there who seem very like, you know, shocked by it. So it's hard to say. And I do think that's one thing that like, probably like if I had one question to ask the directors, I. May, may like raise me and be like, so Dylan, is he into Murphy? Is he not?

Like, I don't think the movie answers it, but it does feel like, there is something. Like that might be part of it. Like is Dylan, I don't know. I don't know. Like all of your questions, the answer is maybe.

Yeah, I think it's Dylan's line. But when Sam says that, I think Dylan says, well, which one's better, girls or boys? And I'm like, that's a wild line. That's such a wild line. And my ears immediately went up and I was like, wait, are we doing this?

Is this part of the narrative of this film? And I think it might be undercurrent shit there. I thought maybe I was making it up, but when you said it, I was like, okay, maybe that's really there. What an interesting movie. Yeah, absolutely.

I am glad you picked it. We had no idea what we were getting and it worked out in its own strange way. Weird picks. Yeah. All right.

You got to pick next time. Oh God. Oh, but I'm like, I, I'm like the better editor of picking. Like I like you throw something at me and then I like, but what about if we go at this direction? Like just picking the idea.

Geez, it sounds horrible. No, no, that's fine. I like it though. Okay. All right.

So think of ideas. Let's never change. Thank God. All right. We will be back at some point.

In the meantime, happy October, everybody. Oh, yeah. Happy Halloween. Yay! Last Saturday night I got married Me and my wife settled down Now me and my wife are parted Gonna take another stroll downtown Irene, goodnight Irene, goodnight Good night, Irene Good night, Irene I'll see you in my dreams Sometimes I live in the country