Rings of Power S2E5 Recap: "Halls of Stone"

Welcome to the Podcast of Power, the only podcast on the entire internet, every single country, every region, even those territories up in Canada. We're the only ones that talk about the Rings of Power, the Amazon Prime show. Of course, I'm Mike White. Joining me is Mr. Chris Tashew.

Every time you say that, I want to disagree with you, but I don't think you're wrong. I get the distinct feeling that every time you say the only podcast on the internet talking about this, I feel like you're right. This show just came out in a vacuum, man. I'm still shocked how little was talked about this show, how little I've heard about the things that happen in this show that affect the main canon in The Lord of the Rings. Well, I did look around yesterday and I found a YouTube channel called the Nerd of the Rings.

You're going to say the podcast of power. No, no. Screaming that the episodes aren't on there. Right. Yeah.

Where's the video? This is a podcast, sir. Yes. I'm sorry. This is Wendy's.

Yeah. Nerd of the Rings doing a great job. I watched a couple recaps and he is way into the lore. So like really pointing out a lot of the problems that this show has, which I'm completely unaware of where it's like, well, the real story from the Silmarillion is this and this. I'm like, okay, cool.

That's great, man. Like we need people like that kind of fact checking this show. I'm fine with just watching this show as a show. and not necessarily the whole lore kind of thing, but knock yourself out, man. And I always assumed, and again, I think we've talked about this before, that the lore of the books is informing the lore of the show, but the show's lore is actually creating its own canon for the movies, is the way I've always interpreted this show anyways, and its relation to the films, correct? I can see that, yeah.

And I know he also had some objections to like little lines and like um you know just some homages and stuff and i'm like okay i can kind of see that you know there are a couple lines i can't remember it's this one or the next one where it's like oh yeah gandalf said that in this movie and now it's tom bombadil saying this so you know but i'm like all right whatever i'm just i'm here to enjoy this show and i'm here to talk about hall of stone halls of stone. Halls halls and stones i love their first album. Well, Halls of Stone usually is what I suck on when I'm having a really, you know, little kind of tickle in the back of the throat. Just put in some Halls of Stone and just, you know, suck on a boulder for a little while.

That's the other direction for the joke. Good. Nice. Yeah, that's good. This one came out September 12th, 2024.

It was written by Nicholas Adams and co-directed by Louise Hopper, or sorry, Louise Hooper and Sanaa Hamri. And we are... Well, we're kind of in some familiar territory. We're back inside of the Halls of Stone, as the title suggests. Also kind of hanging out in Numenor in this one.

And I have to say, this Numenor story isn't bothering me as much as I thought it would. Not anymore, I think, is the phrase you're looking for here. Business has finally picked up at Numenor, folks. But we have... We start off with the dwarves and we start off with Durin.

What would he be during the third? Picking up his new ring of power, you know, testing it out, goes around the block a few times, really lays it out, sees how this thing handles on curves. And man, oh, man, does this thing take over during the third really fucking fast? And you can even hear it quickly. You can even hear those whispers from the rings coming, like right as soon as he picks them up, like we get to see him putting on the ring the very first time.

And then he is just immediately out there like, Hey, Hey, go this wall here. Yeah. Yeah. Dig on this wall here. This, this is where I want you to go.

And they're like, Oh, this is a load bearing wall, sir. Uh, you know, if you do that, uh, you might, uh, you might cut up the, uh, the liner and suddenly the pool will get all filled with algae. He's like, no, no, no, no. Right here, right here. Dig right here.

You know what? Fuck it. Give me an ax. I'll do it myself. That's right.

He's not looking for gems. He's looking for air, baby. Looking for light. Getting some light back in here. All right.

Yeah. I want to mention something because, you know, you mentioned the The disembodied voices as the subtitles like to say. The parcel tongue, yeah. I really love that we get this idea that the people who are utilizing the ring and allowing it to corrupt them they hear that they know, and they disregard it because it, it lends the idea to, okay, yes, we have these characters that are corrupted by the ring, but it's not corrupted. They were already like on that brink.

They were already leaning that direction. They were already becoming unhinged in some way. Like Durin was not great to begin with. Like, Durin III was not. And I like that these rings in some of their cases are just amplifying how awful they are.

It's not really corrupting them. It's more just allowing them to become more powerful and in some ways, in Durin's case, more terrible than he already was, more greedy than he already was. Do you feel he was terrible? I thought he was a really nice guy before. I just again, like maybe it's just me and that just the the relationship that he's having with his son, him being so dismissive about the digging and, you know, digging too deep, which we obviously know, you know, if you're if you have watched Lord of the Rings or know the source material.

You know what happens when you dig too deep in Khazad-dum. And again, like, I don't know, maybe it's just me feeling that energy from the character, but I don't know. I just, I don't get the sense that they want it to be that the rings are corrupting as much as the rings are amplifying the negative traits of the character and allowing them to like fully embrace how, again, how terrible some of these, I mean, like Doran is, a greedy character just by design so I like that the rings amplify that it's not like we have this character that's inherently good with no shade of gray and they turn evil because of the ring like that's a little that would feel a little bit too much of a stretch for this show and again I like the writing on this show I think the writing in the show is really well done in terms of the character interactions especially with the dwarves the dwarves are all for the most part very empathetic characters like you feel a lot of empathy for them living in this mountain and you know, the struggles that they're dealing with because this is not an easy life.

And then it's being made harder by the world outside of them just kind of crashing in further and further. I mean, when it comes to Durin for me, Durin III, like, I don't see him as being greedy. I mean, he was told about the Mithril And it's like, here's this wondrous stuff. We could start digging it out. But he seemed like he was more concerned about safety than he was about the Mithril.

So I just was like, I wasn't seeing him as a greedy character. Yes, his relationship with his son could have been way better. He could have taken his son aside and had some more conversations. But his son's a hothead just like he is. So it's kind of a weird, you know, Irish relationship these guys have.

Right, right. The Irishness of the characters comes through the way that they talk. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That dwarves with underground.

I love the dwarves in this show. I think outside of Nori and everything going on with maybe Gandalf question mark. I think the dwarves are my favorite part of the show because, again, they're just the most, you know, the dwarves. are so underserved in the narrative, original narrative. Like, we see Khazad-dûm, obviously, but they're gone. So, getting to see the dwarves, I mean, yes, you know, we obviously have seen a lot of the elves, but I like that the show gives the dwarves an actual, like, here's the dwarves, here's their entire, like, we're gonna follow them and give them an actual storyline and characters to follow, and I appreciate that the show... has not lost that because you know you have them isolated in the mountain like you don't have to have them the entire show you can come back to them but the fact that they give them a lot of agency and room and you know this interesting like you said irish relationship with durin the third and during the fourth i think is for me the most interesting part and the most engaging part of the show for.

Me yeah absolutely because yeah like you said we never saw them at their heights And even when it came to the Hobbit movies, I mean, they're already exiles by that point. So when we go to Khazad-dûn in the Fellowship of the Ring, yeah, everything's empty. We are looking at a ghost town. There's just corpses, you know, corpses and goblins, and that's about it. So to be able to see these guys at the, well, I can't say at the height because they have been dealt a serious blow, but I would say in the first season, we were seeing them pretty much at the height of their worlds.

And I was like, yeah, this is pretty nice to see. Also, you know, with the uh, the whole thing with Mount Doom and shaking the foundations of Casa Dune, seeing how they were using the light from the outside and, you know, growing in the tree, the, the one that they got from, um, the elves and everything. It's like, okay, this is pretty cool. I like this. This is nice.

And then I also do like that they are working with the elves when it comes to, You know, the creation of the doors and everything. It was nice to see kind of the rough draft. Of the doors. Speak friend and enter. Yeah.

And just that they, you know, are friends at this point, that they are actively engaged in a project. And I kind of like that. even though he's possessed by the ring, that Durin III's like, hey, great job getting together with the elves here. This is a terrific thing you're doing. And I'm like, okay, yeah. I don't think a non-possessed Durin would have said that, though.

So speaking of possession, how about that Celebrimbor, huh? Oh, boy. Oh, my God, man. He's losing his shit, man. I love it, though.

I think we talked about it either in the last episode or the episode before, there are so many Kassandras in this show. And it's like they're ramping up in these this episode and especially the next one, which is like, no, no, no. That's Sauron. That's Sauron. It's like, oh, God, it's so I love how well it's done in the show because it could be irritating.

But because we have him kind of going all over the place and looking different to the characters in the show and but not so much to us. It's a little bit more believable, but I'm so glad that the show manages to navigate those characters pointing out at Sauron, but them being unable to do anything. Because in another show, a less well-written show, it would be really, I don't know, plot armor convenience. And every time it happens, something kind of bad happens more or less immediately after that happens. And I appreciate that. again kella brimbor is like oh god like he's he's figuring it out in slow motion which is the more more agonizing part of it like sauron's kind of got him under his thumb and he's just kind of squishing him very slowly.

Well it's funny like the one of the first things that he says to sauron and this one is like it's a game you play is it not um uh planting seeds into people's uh heads and it's just like oh okay yeah he sees right through the guy but it's like you're still still are being manipulated by him it's almost like you welcome the manipulation and then we get the all of like the gaslighting stuff where it's like oh where the hell's my hammer at you mean that hammer right there oh oh gosh i i guess i uh forgot about it and just like the whole thing with like the one um elf who um uh he's like oh yeah uh hellbringbor's kind of losing it you know you really gotta be careful don't don't worry you know or like Even saying that Celebrimbor is the one in the shadow realm that she saw when she put on the one ring.

It's like, oh my gosh! And not the one ring, but you know. A ring. A ring, yes. Yeah, and kind of was losing her shit.

I love that scene because, yeah, it's again like just... Celebrimbor is... you can see him that the, like, you can see the walls closing in on him in slow motion. Like he is, he is in Sauron's trap. Sauron has his hooks in him and it's too late. Like it was too late the moment he invited him in.

He's like Dracula, right? Like don't invite the vampire in now that he's in, we can't do anything about it. And I love that scene at the beginning of this episode where they're, you know, they're celebrating and they're celebrating the wall, the, the, the doors of Doran. And then, Sauron walks up to the balcony and, you know, Celebrimbor sees him and he walks up there. I love that scene because I just remember when I was watching it the first time, I looked over at my friend Lindsay and I was like, this is the part where he's going to talk about how he wants to make rings for men.

And then it's just like, so I was thinking we need to get these rings for men. It's like this son of a bitch. Like this guy, he just, this for me is, and again, maybe I'm wrong here and you tell me, This is what I always wanted from those Star Wars prequels. It's getting to see the real asshole machinations of the villains who are part of the main story in this world, but we don't really get to see just like, how fucking awful they really are. Like we only really, if you read into the extended lore of Star Wars, you get to understand that Darth Vader like murdered thousands of people as Darth Vader.

He was just killing people constantly. And like, that's a thing that kind of gets glossed over because again, we don't see it here anymore. man, Sauron, he is just getting to be full blown awful constantly. And I love it. I'm, you know, again, as someone who's a huge fan of the Sopranos, like getting to see an awful character get away with doing awful things is that, you know, writ large. So Charlie Vickers as Sauron is just straight facing it the whole time.

Like, no, I don't know what you're talking about. What do you mean? It's interesting, though. Sometimes I think he lets the truth slip a little bit because like, Well. You have to, right?

Isn't that the point? Like leave a little, you got to leave a little room for daylight in there between it. Right. Isn't that the kind of the point? Oh yeah.

Cause at one point he talks about Numenor and he's just like, I fear Numenor. And I'm like, yeah, you better fucking fear Numenor. Cause they're probably the only ones that can actually take care of you right now. You know, like. And actually, it's the sons of Numenor.

It's them coming for you in however many years. Thousands of years. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, you should fear Numenor. They are your fate, basically.

So yeah, that was kind of nice. And just, again, like... Oh, yeah, you gotta be careful of those Numenoreans. You know, they're fractured over there. You know, it's like, oh, jeez.

And not only are they fractured, but they're gonna get more fractured, even. Oh, yeah. Yeah, and I do like this Castle Intrigue stuff now, because we've got the new king and his dickhead son, who I think his name is Kevin, but I kept thinking they were saying Kevin, and I just kept thinking of Macaulay Culkin. You know, Kevin! Kevin!

So, and then we've got, you know, our, our hero and his, his daughter has turned against him and she's the one that, you know, cried out when the queen was, you know, they have her little ceremony in the last episode. I kept thinking of the princess bride with like, you know, at the wedding ceremony, but instead it's the daughter just like, she's a liar. She's the one that uses the Palantir and this is her counsel and stuff. And, sure enough, this new king, what's he do? Goes right in and starts using the Palantir and just like, yeah, what's he going to see?

And then we do get our hero who, and I'm sorry, I'm forgetting his name, but he actually touches the Palantir and gets blasted across the room and you get to see later on. There's a couple of different areas of foresight in here. There's him and his vision. And then at one point, the king of the elves, he gets a vision. So I'm just like, all right.

And that's pretty disturbing. There's like a whole dry riverbed with fish all over the place it looks like there's an orc drinking blood and i'm just like all right this whole like power of foresight type of thing i'm wondering if each ring for the elves gives you different powers you know like does each one give you like a little bit different like this one can see into the future this one i don't know like i still don't know how the invisibility plays into it and. I right it seems a little random. Yeah maybe a little too random. Maybe it's sauron It could be.

Yeah. I don't know, because again, with Sauron, we see his machinations, but we know he's up to more than just what we're seeing on screen. Because again, with the last season, we see what he's doing, but we don't understand how it's going to play out until further down. There tends to always be this moment where he's like, and so let me tell you my plan. And I'm not sure how the invisibility factors into it either, because that's clearly something that has not been addressed.

Because like you said, there are people wearing the rings right now and they're not invisible. Exactly. And they're not seeing into the shadow realm. Like the ring that the one girl puts on seems to do exactly what was happening to Frodo and Bilbo. where she's in that shadow realm and seeing Sauron for who he is. I mean, God, if he's standing right there, it must be absolutely terrifying because Frodo never saw him up close like that.

It was always like visions from afar type of thing. I see you, that kind of stuff. And what's hilarious is because she's standing so close, she thinks it's Celebrimble. Right, yeah. It'd be like you being in the same room as the devil.

I mean, that's what the expectation is. That's the, you know. Yeah. Elendil. That's the guy's name.

I could not think of his name. No Isildur sightings in this episode. No, not one. But the other guy who is Isildur's frenemy, I mean, he always seemed kind of pissed off at Isildur. He's standing up for what's right.

Seems to be one of the only people that's really standing up against Kemen and his dad. And doesn't he break kevin's shoulder in. This episode his arm yeah breaks his fucking arm in a gnarly way he's like that's pretty great. Yeah i was very happy about that yeah it's yeah. It's this episode.

Finally with the castle entry, we finally get to a point with the castle entry where some of it's starting to pay off. And I think that's the difference between good castle intrigue and great castle intrigue is great. Castle intrigue has a good buildup and a good payoff. This, I think has been like middle of the road to good because the payoff here has been pretty good so far. Uh, and Farazan man, Farazan is such a piece of shit.

You know, I, i love that scene because again there's another scene that you've only heard about in silmarillion where it's like and then he took power and he wanted to go to the gray havens because that's where the immortality of the elves is and man wants the immortality of the elves and you get to see that scene and what it was that caused him to be that way and drive him you get to see that externalized and he's so awful but in that like bureaucratic way and I love that again I think I maybe said it in the first season we did many moons ago of this show but I love that we get to see all the different kinds of evil too. There's the violent evil and the bureaucratic evil and then the greed evil.

All the versions of evil are kind of coming out through these other characters. And again, it's because of the influence of Sauron being back And then in some cases, like them wearing the ring, which is which is just Sauron in a ring, which it's so smart. It's again, like it's so smart to have the rings of power also be, you know, the rings of the deceiver. But that was always going to be the case. I just I guess in my mind, the thing I've never understood the disconnect is like we're going to wear the rings.

And like we've already said, you hear the like. Mm hmm. What the fuck do you think that is? What the fuck do you think that is? Like, for real, what the fuck do you think?

If you think that that's positive, what? Yeah. Well, it's like, then you get the unexpected thing, not to jump to the end of this episode, but when you find out that Adar wants to team up with Galadriel, and you're like, oh, he was totally evil, but then also we did see him, you know, a few episodes ago, trying to gank Sauron, so it's like, okay. While he's successfully killing that version of him. Yeah, exactly.

So, yeah. Yeah, and you get all those little petty fucking things on Numenor, like when, you know, Elendil's getting his sword, all of his stuff taken away from him, and he, you know, puts it all down, and then one of the guys is like, you know, captain leaving deck, and they all, like, give him this respectful, like, turn and kind of thing, and then fucking Kemen, he's nobody's captain now. It's like, oh, he's a Fucking weasel, man. I fucking can't stand that guy. Well, and that's the thing that's nice is they're finally given us like the Farazan was just kind of not that he wasn't a villain, but they didn't give him the villain's turn really until this episode where he's like, I'll like, they're like, okay.

And now we get to understand his machinations are, he wants to go and take the gray Havens. And it's like, why would you want to go and attack the peaceful elves? Like they're, they're not actively doing anything to you. And yeah, If you do something to them, they might close the Strait of Grey Havens. I don't know.

They were open before, and now they're closed. I wonder what they are going to show of that, because that is ultimately what leads to the downfall of Numenor, is that attack on the Grey Haven. But I wonder how much of it they're going to show. I wonder... Because again, we know where Elendil and Isildur end up.

They end up at the battlefields of the War of the Last Alliance. So we know that Elendil is not going to be on Numenor when Numenor disappears into the ocean, Atlantis style. I was wondering what happens to it. You look at the architecture, you look at the uniforms, you look at the helmets, and it's just like they are so influenced by the elves. It's like this is the the most elven of anyone in Middle-earth.

Well, the Numenoreans in the lore I believe are, they're the men that were given longer lives by the elves. And so it's just, they wanted more. And so I believe also in the mythology of Lord of the Rings that the people of Numenor are supposed to be like, remember how in Prometheus, like the engineers, they're like pretty like big. These people are supposed to be bigger humans, but not as, because the elves are supposed to be huge, right? Like the elves are supposed to be- That's true.

So that's the, I mean- It's one of the things that they've never really done in the movies or the shows is really show the size of these characters. Because again, like you have, you have the elves who should be massive, the men who should be slightly smaller. And then like the men on, not on Numenor and they should be like normal human sized. And then the hobbits are tiny and we don't necessarily get that. But here again, like the Numenoreans are meant to be, better than normal men but lesser than elves which is why that drive to go and get the immortality from the elves is so strong.

Yeah no that does not come through at all and when I think about Legolas standing next to and I know you know Numenorean blood goes through I believe is it Numenorean or the blood of Aragorn yeah no no he is the last of the men of the last of the Numenoreans I believe right and like Yeah, he's a normal-sized dude, and Legolas is a little shorter than him. I mean, in my lore of Dungeons & Dragons, elves are a little shorter than men, but that's interesting that they are taller than men in Tolkien's world. I believe so. I mean, I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure, again, it's like that would track with what the Numenoreans are like the last great kingdom of men, and that's... they live longer than the other men do the ones that don't live there.

And so, yeah, it's, I figured the Atlantis, like, like kind of comparison was very apt. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and again, like, I'm pretty sure that that's what inspired Tolkien because again, like it's, it's, you know, once, like I said, I mean, it's like, it's a, it is a spoiler, I guess, but the books have been out forever now. So, cause it's mentioned in the Silmarillion, all of this that we're seeing comes from the Silmarillion and, and, you know, further extended text.

So, yeah, the castle intrigue in Numenor has finally gotten to a point where it's interesting. I'm a little disappointed it took a season and a half. Season and a half, yeah. I was about to say, it's not just this season, it's technically last season, too. So.

Yeah, but last season, yeah, last season I could not give a shit about any of that stuff. It was... I want to say for me last season, it would probably be dwarfs and Nori, the dwarfs and the Gandalf storyline, then the elves. Wait, Gandalf said this? Maybe.

And then further down, I mean, I'm going to laugh when it finally is revealed that it's Gandalf at the end of this season and that we have to correct ourselves and be like, so it was Gandalf all along. Oh, my God. It's like those two astronauts in space with the one pointing the gun at the other. It was Gandalf all along. Always has been.

Always has been. But I'm assuming it's Gandalf. It's a good assumption. Yeah. Yeah, that's a fair assumption.

Yeah. The prices are going sky high. Gas is over $ 4. Yeah. Over $ 4 now at the pump.

And yeah, you got to pay 200 gold pieces for what I thought was a Palantir. I thought there was just a Palantir. It's just hanging out. The Deesa is like, oh, I want that for our daughter. And I was like, oh, my God.

But no, it's just a. Fucking Palantir adjacent, given the things that Deesa finds out because of it. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Which is pretty wild.

Her whole little adventure thing when she drops the stuff or gets jostled. And then has to chase this fucking thing. And then I got to imagine that creature that she sees or hears or experiences. That's the thing that lives outside of the caves, right? That's the thing that attacks them when they're trying to get the door open.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. She's feeling the Balrog. Oh, she's feeling the Balrog. Okay. The Balrog is the ancient evil that they are talking about.

Like it's the mouth. It's because remember in the first season, they had that thing where the, the leaf fell off the tree and it went all the way down. Yeah. She is sensing the the thing underneath that they will, you know, because again, like this is this is how you do this prequel stuff where it's like they're taking one sentence from the fellowship and they're blowing it up and into an entire storyline, which is they dug too deep. Right, right.

Now we're like this is the digging too deep that has been talked about so many times before. And I know he's not going to be in this because he's not that old, but when she gets down to that cave, I was totally thinking of Gollum. And I was just like, oh, yeah, look at this cave. This looks like where he was hanging out when Frodo came through. But I think that's a different cave system, right?

Oh, that's Khazad-dûm. Okay. That's why this is so insane, because this is where.... So much of the Lord of the Rings takes place. Wow.

Because again, this is where we have to go back to the Hobbit. This is where the Goblin King is later. Then we have, obviously, this is where they, like you said, this is where Gollum is chilling. In the Lord of the Rings, when he's following them, he isn't following them through Khazad-dum because that's where the bridge is. Right.

I do remember that. And I remember how rough that animation is compared to what it would be in the next movie when you get to see full-fledged Gollum, Andy Serkis Gollum. This is like the trial run in Fellowship where you just see the big eyes and the hands kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah, no, she's feeling the Balrog.

She's feeling the Balrog that will, I'm assuming at some point, make itself more known than it has to just us, the audience. Well, yeah. I can't remember if it's this episode or it might be the next episode where you actually get to see the Balrog in the flames when Annatar is talking. Did you notice that? Uh-uh, I didn't.

Oh, yeah. At one point he's talking, he's by this this thing with these flames and the Balrog's head like comes out of the flames. It's really crazy. It was my second time seeing it. I did not see that the first time.

Okay. God damn. I must've missed it then. I love the Balrog. It's one of my favorite, like characters.

One of my favorite designs. I like that. It's, it's, It's kind of like Gandalf, isn't it? The Balrog is Gandalf. It is a corrupted Maiar, which is what Gandalf is.

It's like a fallen demigod. Yeah, he always reminds me of a demon. He reminds me of the thing in Fantasia that's calling up all the evil. Oh, Chernabog. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Maiar are... Yeah, yeah. It's so... Yeah, Gandalf and Sauron are the Maiar, and Balrogs are corrupted Maiar, so they are like Sauron and Gandalf.

Interesting. which is crazy. I mean, again, like when you, well, and if you put that into perspective with who kills Gandalf in fellowship of the rings, you know, he's, he's fighting again. There's a lot of stuff that's left in, not left in the books, but there's a lot of stuff that enriches your ability to enjoy Lord of the rings. If you know a lot about the lore and the lore is so well with Tolkien, having been the one who wrote it, like it, I wouldn't say it's concise, but there's a lot of it. And it all feels of a piece compared to like star Wars or, something that I think really irritates a lot of people, Dune, Dune's mythology.

I mean, you know, Frank Herbert's son kind of, I think, ran that series into the ground. So, you know, Lord of the Rings, like even though this is the show coming and taking the book's mythology and doing something with it, I feel like they had a really strong mythology to mine from, more so than any other show. kinds of these these kinds of things ever has like even the star wars stuff it's like this tenuous bullshit mythology that's held together by like chicken wire and you know oh we got jj abrams coming to make a movie then we got ryan johnson making a movie and then we got jj abrams back and they're like erasing their own canon mid film like jesus christ Lord of the Rings has never had that problem, and that's because it hasn't been adapted into anything else until now.

This and, you know, the subsequent movies we're going to be getting. But Lord of the Rings was just the books and the movies. And I think that that's really helped this, even if it is, like you said, other people doing podcasts or video podcasts about this and having issue with the mythology. I get it. I understand, but this is meant to be...

And I was going to say, you know, the term... I think it should be used more as palimpest when we were talking about the name of the rose. Like, that's what this is. This is people recreating the mythology into a show. Like, can you really expect it to hew that close to the mythology of a guy who wrote it 60 years ago?

It's a really strong starting point, but it's a starting point. Like it's, there's a lot of stuff that, but like for TV and television, especially modern audiences, you have to do certain things. You have to give them kind of give them what they want. And I think that this season has done a much better job of that than the last season of giving us as an audience, something to really chew on and enjoy in terms of a show. Well, you mentioned star Wars and it's like, You could just tell, you know, you're talking about like the sequels and how it's like, all right, we're going straight.

Now we're taking a far right turn. And then we have to take a left turn with the last one to come back to where we started from. And it just feels like a total waste of time, those last three movies. But it's like, even with the prequels, it's like George was just making shit up as he went along. It's like midichlorians were mentioned in the first movie, never to come back.

Jar Jar was very present in the first movie. And then he just kind of got sidelined in the rest of them. And it's like you could just tell he had no fucking idea. Like when Obi-Wan Kenobi, I mean, Obi-Wan Kenobi had to change his story like several times. You know, of course, like with the original trilogy, it's like, oh yeah, no, yeah, he's your dad.

Oh yeah, yeah, your sister. You know, like all of those things were not there. George was just making shit up as he went. With this, it's like Tolkien knew what the fuck he was doing. He was able to have the time to put this stuff all together.

I mean, it's almost good enough that we waited so long between when Tolkien was around writing this stuff and now us watching it because he was able to just not have a bunch of drooling fanboys saying, well, what happens with this? And what happens with that? And like, well, you mentioned this one thing, what happens with that? And like, I'm going to write fan fiction about that. And I'm going to, I'm going to come up with all of these ideas with the clone wars are, and, and then you're going to show me and it's going to be super lame.

It's like, but at least with this, you have, you know, the book, you've got the Hobbit, you've got the Lord of the Rings, you've got the Silmarillion. It's like, okay, we have this Lord. This is fucking fantastic. So yeah, those things like, you know, to go to another book, the Bible where it's like, all right, uh, Hey, Darren Aronofsky, how the fuck are you going to make a movie about Noah? Like, thank God he was able to pull that off.

I actually had a pretty good time with that movie, but it's like, yeah, it's, It's a couple of sentences. You know, you've got a couple of things here and there. And it's like, how are you going to take that and turn that into a full fledged movie? Well, here you get to see like, oh, it was one line. And basically now we get to see how all this stuff plays out with these really damn good actors doing their jobs.

And, you know, like you said, great writing. taking us in, showing us around, making us believe this and really like feeling like we're on some solid footing. I don't feel like the people in charge of this are out of their fucking mind and just like making shit up as they go along. It feels like they actually have a plan to this, which I hope to God that they do. And I would think since they're like five seasons, that's it in and out. It's like, okay, good.

I don't want to have this bullshit of like an extra six season where you're just like scraping the bottom of the barrel going, oh, yeah, we gotta add this other thing, too. Oh, you know, and... Which is, I think, kind of, like, even though it was based on a lot of good stuff, I think The Hobbit was doing a little too much when it came to, oh, yeah, there's this other thing we can add, and then this other thing we can add. They were riffing, like, jazz in The Hobbit for no reason. Like, what are we doing here?

Just tell me the story of The Hobbit, man. I don't need to see Sauron and Saruman and all of this stuff. Like, I don't need... Even though I love... uh, Sylvester McCoy. I don't need, um, Radagast and stuff.

I don't need any of that shit. I love, yeah. I mean, yeah, I love the, you know, there's certain things where I'm just like, okay, yeah, this, this works for me, but. The first one gets kind of overstuffed as any movie I've seen gets to being fellowship of the ring again, that first movie, but that's it. Right.

And then you, you know, then you add in all the bullshit of like, Oh, and there's this elf that loves this dwarf. It's like, I don't need any of that, man. No. And then Stephen Fry is in it. And fuck us.

Oh, my God. It's the worst shit. Everything at Lake Town is the worst part of those Hobbit movies. I know that everybody... like lambast the CGI, but Stephen Fry is the worst part of that movie. Like the worst part of any Lord of the Rings, anything.

Yeah. Stephen Fry is great in everything, but not that. Nope. He might even say he's not great in that. Like I would hope he would know that like he, and that Alfred character are just, I, God, I know that we've talked about this.

I know that they're like fan edits of the Hobbit out there. And I hope to God that those fan edits take all of that out. They take a lot out. Yeah. I've watched like the, three and a half, four hour version of it, it removes a lot of the shit.

And, you know, I get it. Like you said, like they were trying to tell they were trying to tell this story in an abbreviated form before anyone had the idea to tell this story, which is how did Sauron come to being again? And yes, there is some of that in The Hobbit. sort of but really it's all in the silmarillion which is not what they were adapting if you want to adapt the silmarillion just do that which is what this show is doing so that's my point they were trying to do what this show is doing now before this show was ever given a chance to do it so and to your point the other point about this being five seasons and that's it i think that's why this show i think feels so well written is because they know where they're going already oh This isn't like, oh, we're going to, you know, Dexter, we're going to write a big bad into season four that's not in the books and it's going to be the best season of the show.

It's like there's none of that here. It's like, no, no, we've we've got the source material. Let's be true to that. Let's build on it, but use it as the solid foundation. I'm really kind of bummed that this show was not more popular because it feels like it should be given how popular Lord of the Rings is.

Mm hmm. Yeah no and it's not like they're reacting to fans and saying like oh you know they really hated this character let's write him out for the second season or. That was the case we have no Numenor. Right exactly exactly yeah yeah I don't I really don't like this Sauron guy he feels very manipulative you know. A great deceiver.

Yeah it is nice to see uh Caliburn Bond like really going against Sauron in this one and just like you said, like he's kind of standing up for himself, but then he's just getting gaslit so hard, man. Every single time he says something, you got sore on just like, no, that's not how it is. That's not how it is at all. And just giving those fucking evil looks like, crazy, always behind his back, you know? Yeah.

Kellobrimbor and Sauron's kind of back and forth is for me, I think this season's most, like I said, like last season for me, it's the dwarves and this season I'm really liking this stuff with the dwarves, but I am also genuinely, I think my favorite part of this show now is just Sauron. Like everything with Charlie Vickers is Sauron Cause last season he was good, but you really had, it was one of those things where you had to go back and watch the season a second time to see, to like, to, to fully understand and appreciate like, okay, so he was Sauron the whole time. It recharacterizes some of what he was doing in this season. It's like, he's just allowed to be a bastard this whole season. And yeah, If you're into that, like, this is for you.

Like, this is a thing in Lord of the Rings I never thought I would got, which is its version of, like, Breaking Bad or The Sopranos, where it's like, no, no, the villain is part of the show. And he's just, like, the main villain of this entire series is just in the show running around doing all the nasty stuff you've heard about him doing, because he's a demigod and he can walk among us. Like, you know, I mean, Zeus does that, but Zeus is not a demigod. Well, I guess, yeah, I guess... And it was always Hercules.

But Zeus walked among us, too, because that's how Hercules came into being. Because remember, Zeus was like a goose at one point and he was doing all kinds of shit. He was always trying to fuck ladies. Yeah. All these different forms.

Yeah. So like, you know, there's there's a precedent for this in mythology of the gods and demigods wandering the world. I mean, again, to go to the character you hate in this show. I mean, he's supposed to be God. Oh, yeah.

Tommy B, as they call him. Mr. Not Featured in this episode. Yeah, exactly, exactly. So, yeah.

No, I like this one. No. Yeah, right. This must have been your favorite episode so far. I can't say that I like Celebrimbor's management style, though.

The way that he just comes in and starts reading the riot act to all of the elves, and he's just like, hey, if you fuck up, you're not going to be a smith here anymore. You're out of here. I'm just really laying it down. He gets to be the bad cop, and then what happens is Sauron gets to be the good cop and he's just like, oh, it's okay. He's under a lot of stress, you know, just leave him be.

And he might be that horrible vision that you saw when you were in the shadow realm. So, you know, it's, it's just, you know, stick with me. Just listen to me. Don't worry about his stuff. Um, you know, I'll be the one that goes to upper management.

Yeah, man, Sauron is just... He is one of the nastiest characters I've seen in TV in a really long time because he's just so... It's like... you know, imagine getting to play essentially the devil. And just like, if you really lean into it and have a good time with it, which Charlie Vickers seems to be doing, you really get to make your presence felt in a show. Every time he's, even when he's not on screen, you know, he's like his, you know, his inky tentacle is like, is hooked into somebody somewhere somehow because he's all over the place.

And with the rings now he's really all over it. Oh yeah, 100%. Yeah, and that great little shot at the end with the way that the molten metal is spinning around. I love the way that they pour these rings, that they all come down this almost like a rune type of thing and go into their molds. But just that look that he...

I swear it's almost like he's looking at the camera where he just kind of looks up from the molten metal and it's like... Yeah, everything's going exactly the plan. Everything's going exactly the way that I want it to. And you know that that's this whole season and probably will be the rest of the next few seasons, too, where he's always three, four, five, ten steps ahead of everybody else. Because he knows what drives the hearts of men and dwarves and elves.

Cause he is the ultimate evil. Like it's, you know, it to say it's like biblical is a little ham fisted, but it's the truth. Like that's, that's the level that Tolkien was writing. These stories at was that he is like you said, like he, he would believably look at the camera and wink and get away with it. Like I would be like, okay.

Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're here.

He knows we're watching him because he is the eye ringed in flame. Yeah. He is the all, yeah, he is the all evil and all knowing. And man, I, and again, I think I may have said this in the last episode. I had not seen Charlie Vickers in a whole lot of things, but man, what a great actor.

He hasn't been in a lot of things. That's why. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's kind of nice.

Like other than really Peter McMullin as during the third, there's not a lot of actors in here that I recognize. I know that, that, you know, some of these. Guys like the Rory Kinnear, Tom Bombadil. Yeah. Well, yeah, who doesn't look like him at all.

No, he does not. But why am I blanking on the guy that Hugo Weaving plays? Oh, Robert Aramayo, Elrond. Right. Yes, Elrond.

Like, I don't recognize him. I know you know who he is, though. Yeah, he was from Game of Thrones, and then he was in that movie about the guy with Tourette's. Right. He is more famously now.

Oh. Yeah, yeah. I can't believe that that actor went and called those guys the N-word. Can you believe that? I'm surprised he's still in the show.

That would have been the funnier version of that story if it was Robert Aramayo just doing that in solidarity with the guy he played who had Tourette's. Yeah. Holy shit. Oh, my God. You know, I love what they've done with Elrond in this show because he talked about a character that was really like underrepresented in Fellowship.

And then, I mean, really in The Hobbit, like probably not represented in a way that it was enticing or interesting. So, you know, this is the first time where we get to see some of these characters actually be interesting, which I have really enjoyed. Well, let's put a pin in it here and come back next time we meet. I can't remember if we're weekly. We are weekly on this one.

That's right. Let's come back next week and talk about where is he? Every time I see that title, I think of Batman. Where is she? Where is he?

Yeah. You could choose to be good. I did that way too much in college, so I could still hear it in the back of my head. That's very good. Batman's always got a head cold.

I need some Kleenex. I'll tell you what he needs. He needs some halls of stone. That's right. I brought it back.

Did you see that? All the way from long distance. I'm going out in the outfield. Until we come back and talk about where is he? Chris, what are you working on these days?

Why don't you just tell the people what we're both working on? I was about to say, I think I've been given the I think I've been given customary plug man, which is not as exciting as it sounds. Unfortunately, when you and I are together, you can find everything that you and I work on over at weirdingwaymedia.com. which is the repository, not the suppository, even though I am the plug man, of all the things that you and I work on podcast-wise, those podcasts can also be found on YouTube, but they are only podcasts, not the videos themselves. If you want to hear the only thing that we work on that is not on our main page, you can follow us on our respective patreons one is patreon.com slash projection booth the other one is patreon.com slash culture cast that's where you can find our other show that is now over ranking on bond but the show that it spawned is never tell me the odds which is a harrison ford podcast not a han solo not a star wars podcast a harrison ford podcast And you can check that out on our main feed.

But our old show that still has some episodes, kick it around. Mike and I do bonus episodes without ads can be found at our respective patrons. So that's where you can go to find the things that we work on. Thank you so much for listening, everybody. Please go like and rate and review the show wherever you get it.

We would appreciate it. And we'll come back next week and talk about where is he?