REWIND: Neema Barnette | Directing A Different World, Making TV History, and Strategies for Revolution

Weirdy Weirday. Hello listeners. As we finish off this summer with our big moves, we continue our reruns looking at a different world. This one is very special. We talk with Mima Barnett.

What an incredible director an Eighties TV lady. I learned another lesson juin Frank's Place, that so many black actors are so broken and damaged that when you give them a little attention they don't even know how to take it. Eighties, so pretty, into the city and. Gunning god. World.

Welcome to Eighties TV Ladies with your fabulous hosts Sharon John Hunsen and Susan Lambert had him. Hello, I'm Sharon and I'm Susan. We are super thrilled for today's guest. She is an Emmy winning artist who has one of the most incredible television directing resumes in Hollywood. Prominent and prolific director, writer, and producer, Nima Barnett has engaged audiences with a body of compelling, socially and politically charged work that defies the narrow stereotypes of African Americans usually depicted in entertainment.

For over thirty years, she was the first black woman to ever direct to sitcom and the first black woman ever to get a three picture deal. Miss Barnett grew up in Harlem and started working in theater in New York. She went on to direct over fifty television shows and movies and was the producing director for the first season of Ava Duvernet and Oprah Winfrey's Queen Sugar. And she started in eighties television working on such amazing ladies shows like It's a Living and a Different World. Nima Barnett, Welcome to Eighties TV Ladies.

We're so happy to talk with you today. Well, thank you, Sharon. I'm excited to be on Eighties TV Ladies podcast. You know, I'm excited to be here. My whole career started in the eighties when I got accepted to AFFI Women's Direction Workshop and went from Harlem to Hollywood and changed my life.

So eighties was an interesting time for me, so I'm happy to be on board. Thank you so much. You were one of the first amazing Eighties ladies that were on our list. Wow, almost from the beginning. Well, thank you.

I'm honored because. You were groundbreaking and we're on so many great Eighties Ladies shows. So yes, a very powerful TV ms Bynette. Yes, well, thank you, thank you. Don't ask me how I did it, but I know it's interesting because you know, I started off then thea her and when I got accepted to AFI, the first thing I did was called Gene Furstenberg and said, well, can't you affiliate the program with someone from New York because you know, I went to the original high school performing Arts.

So the only people I knew in Hollywood were out of work actors who didn't go to college like me, and all flew to Hollywood to you know, start their their acting career, so they couldn't be any help. And she said to me, Nima, the whole thing is, you have to come to Hollywood. So I packed my bag and I went from Harlem to Hollywood and did my thing. But the interesting thing is after I got my first job on my AFI film, which took me a year to finish, was after school special about Donna Cheek, the first black equestrian inviter, her struggle to get into the Olympics. She played herself, so maybe that's why nobody else wanted to do it.

But anyway, I got the gig after that. That was a daytime Emmy. I don't know how, but it was it was an interesting journey, you know. Coming from theater, you think you're the ball, you know. And so when I did the Donna Cheek story, I had a DP of male DP who was very chauvinistic, and I didn't know very much because back then the Women's Directing Workshop, they didn't give you any lessons on film.

You put your hand in a hat, you took a number, and then your turn came. So he would ask me where do you want the camera, and being a little bit I was from New York, I kept telling him to move. Oh, I don't like it there. I don't like it there. I didn't know much, but I knew I was his boss.

So after about seven times, I said, okay, leave it there and then I'll tell you if I want to change my mind again, you know. And it was after that that I knew I had to learn lenses and everything else because being a woman, particularly a woman of color, they were going to question me around every corner. So I had to, you know, know my stuff. But when I started my AFI film, like I would shoot Laurence hil from Jacobs and then I told the DP, okay, let's go, and he said, no, Niama, Now you shot him, you have to turn the camera around and you have to shoot the person that he's talking to. I said, oh, okay, And that's how that's how little lie knew.

But then there was a woman, Barbara cor Day, who was the president of Columbia Television at the time, and I thought, well, since I did theater, maybe I should start off trying to observe on sitcom because sitcoms are kind of like, you know, theater. And so I got to observe under Tony Singletary, who's directing What's Happening Now? And I gave him my little reel which consisted of my AFI film and that after School special. And the executive producer said, all her stuff is too much like David Lynch or John Cassavetti's. You know, she could never do TV.

Blah blah blah. So there was a black woman who was the assistant to the executive producers, and she took my reel and she went into Barbara court Day's office and showed it to her. Barbara cour Day called up those executive producers and said, give that girl a job. So they had to give me a job. And the first stay on the set.

They all came running out and said, Nima, you know, we did our research and we found out that there's never been a black woman who ever directed a sitcom before. And I said, oh my god, this is terrible. I don't know what they expected me, you know what kind of response they expected, but you know, so that's the day I made history because I was the first black woman to ever direct a sitcom. And I'll never forget it. Of course, the stage manager was a white guy, very chauvinistick, and I remember going in the bathroom and shedding a tier or two in the bathroom and Shirley came on.

I don't know if you guys know remember Shirley from What's Happening Now? Your episode was called Shirley's Little Sister. Oh my gosh, homework. Yes, And you know that episode did get nominated for NAACP Award. It was their first nomination in all the years they ever because I put my two cents in.

Now, I didn't know. I wasn't supposed to put my two cents in television, but I did because Shirley's little sister, right, she was a big sister to a woman who had a lot of children, and my complaint was just because she has a lot of children, that doesn't mean she's a bad mother. You know, she volunteered her kids to be in the Big Sister program on on on. They looked at me like I was on crack. But I got things changed, you know, And Shirley came in and she said, what's wrong?

And I said, well, you know nothing, I'm okay. You know that that that stage manager, he's a little tough. She said, don't you worry, Nima, We got you. Yeah, so you know, the cast have my back. Yes, And we did the show and I learned a lesson in that show that you know, my people have my back, and a lot of women, no matter what color, they wore to have my back and we're happy to see that I was there.

So I went on and that gave me strength to fight a lot of the battles that I fought after that. And then they decided not to publicize that. They took all these photographs of me and Columbia pictures. They were going to publicize it, but then I guess they decided not to because I think I heard that they were embarrassed that no black women had ever directed a sitcom. Up to that point, Debbie Allen had directed Fame, but that was film.

That was my first experience that really taught me to fight the battle for image control and fight the battle for balanced images because people were hungry for it, you know, and that a lot of people were happy that I was there and they had never had that experience before working with a woman director or a black women director. There were a few, but very few black women or women of color at that time, very few women period. You know, we've certainly been seeing that as we're looking back at the shows that we've covered so far, and yeah, it things have changed, but not nearly enough, but it's happening. Oh yeah, it's big change. You know.

I'm sitting here being interviewed by you wonderful, beautiful, smart ladies. I'll tell you I didn't think I lived as see it. I was born in fifty nine. I didn't think I lived to sit in front of you ladies, to take meetings with female executives, you know, to read scripts that are female driven where the woman is not the victim. You know.

It's I thank god every day that I lived to see it, and the battle was worth it was worth it, you know, just to see it smiley faces. Well, first I want to admit that I was born in fifty eight. Oh okay, so you're aware. Well you look fantastic, as. Do you, as do you.

But going back a little bit, was it always your intent or desire to direct as opposed to be a performer or you know, be in any other part of film or television or theater. I've always been a director, you know. When I was in high school performing arts, there was an African American teacher. Her name was Vanette Carroll, and she was a Broadway director. She directed Don't Bother Me, I Can't Coach.

She came from the Islands, and I had never seen a woman director, never mind a black woman director, never mind a black woman director with such a present start to talk like this, you know, and wore a silver or piece of silver jewelry in her natural organic hair. Vanette Carroll was a force to be reckoned with. And Glenn Turman was a senior when I got accepted, I was like fourteen and she was a senior. And so Vanette Carroll had a group called Urban Arts Court. In that group, she picked some of us from high school performing Arts which included Chip Fields, Kim Field's mother who was raised in the building next to me and who I coached for her audition for performing arts, Glenn Turman, Melvin you know, several of us, Cynthia Jones, and we would go around to the prisons and two different you know, schools and stuff when we would perform these plays.

And I got a job at the Harlem Why as drama and dance director back then, and I started doing the plays. You know who else was working there, Vanne Watson remember the eighties. Yes, yes, Vine was at the Harlem Why with me, and I was the drama dance director and I started directing the kids in the same place that we were doing with the net Count, and I said, oh, this directing thing is kind of nice. It came easy to me. Of course I was copying her, but you know, I really liked it.

And so that was my first introduction into directing and I enjoyed it. It came easily. And so while I was in college, they had a workshop in Harlem called the Frank Silvia's Writer's Workshop, and that's where in Tasaki Shange workshopped for Colored Girls. Richard Wesley workshopped the Mighty Gents and a couple of his plays that were on Broadway. Morgan Freeman was there a lot of people with and so I went down there and I volunteered in the director's group, and so that's how I learned.

I directed my first play, The Girl Beneath the Tulu Tree, which was written by a professor at NYU, and I called on my friends from Performing Arts and we did the play and Vanette Carroll came and she said, Darling, I think you have a taste for this directing thing, but I think you've been living in the art world too long. You know, truck drivers don't dress like that. You've got to get in the real world, so, you know. But I was I was happy that she thought I could do it, and I just it was. It came easily for me.

So I've always been a director. I've had two jobs all my life, directing and teaching, and they have a lot of similarities. Sit down, shut up, move over, okay. Stand there. So yeah, and so I've always been a director, you know.

And then I joined Third World cinema New York or organization started by the late and wonderful Cliff Frasier and Ossie Davis where they place you with people in the film business give you're stiping, you know, to get you started. So they placed me in editing with two Italian commercial editors, Paul Ramono and Alan Roseack. They did all the Coca Cola commercials. Wrigley Scott was doing commercials back then. It must have been four weeks into me rolling that film beIN I got a pain in my chest.

I got off the bus and went to Harlem Hospital. I thought I was having a heart attack. I was strained from, you know, winding those film binds. I went in next I said, Okay, I'm done. I'm done with the editing.

I'm a director. I can't sit in this dark space anymore, you know. But I learned a lot in that editing room. That really helped me a lot when I got out to California and started directing film, because especially in television, it's interesting to learn to shoot the cut. And when you know how to edit, you know how to cut corners, you know, and you also know how what you need to tell the story.

So that was a very good experience for me. I love theater too, I just loved directing. I love what I do. I love telling stories that are meaningful, and you know, working in television, it was it was exciting. You know, it was exciting back then for me.

Like I said, a lot of people looked at me like I was on crack, Like who is this young girl? I was a kid. And I've never been an ad or never been a script supervisor. I was always a director, and I think to this day, I haven't learned that I'm not the boss. So I'm always putting my two cents in and fighting for, you know, a decent cut of something.

You know, because we the actors, the crew, and the writers, we make the movie, we make the show. You do your cut and then you have to hand it over to the executive producers and it's like, Okay, you did your job, now give it to me and I can make it better. But a lot of times that doesn't happen, you know. So my union has made allowances for that. Now we have what we call director's creative rights, which I I have used twice.

I used it on Raising Dianna and I used it on Genius Aretha, where you're you get the guild involved and you're allowed to go through every facet of your show, not just your cut. You could fight for your cut. They have to respond. You're in the all of post production, and it really I like Geniu Saretha. I'm so proud of my two episodes, and people say, how did it come out like that?

It came out like that because I made a lot of enemies and I was in every every facet. So to answer your question, Sharon, yes, I've always been a director, never wanted to do anything else. And a little bit of a fighter. So what what were you fighting for in Aretha? Ooh girl, that's another show?

Oh boy? Well, briefly, you know, I was excited I took took the job because I didn't know Susan Laurie Parks. I knew of Anthony Hemingway nothing, but heard nothing about great things about Anthony. I loved the cast and I love Aretha. You know, every Saturday growing up, all I did my girlfriend Peggy Anne and I we'd go get Sherman's barbecue and go to the Apollo at twelve noon, pay five dollars and stay there till midnight, and we saw everybody.

I would do that from Asia fourteen to twenty, even when I was in college, we still did it. I saw every artist that you could ever imagine. Wow wow, yeah, including Aretha Franklin. So when I got down there, the script was leaning toward making Areta's father the father of her first child, which had been proven that he was not. You know, he was a ladies man, etc.

But he also was one of the first strongest civil rights leaders in the country. In fact, doctor Martin Luther King was his mentee at one time. They begged me to do the two episodes because it was about young Aretha, Lil Loretha, and since I was known to be a just director, you know, I'm sure you know, they wanted a woman, so they could probably blame me for any inaccuracies that go wrong, you know. But I was not in for that. I didn't come down there to make a movie about her father perhaps impregnating her.

I came down there to make a movie about Areta. So the battle started. Cynthia wasn't happy with the script. Neither were any of us. You know.

Paultta Washington, who's now a good friend of mine, played beautifully Areta's grandmother, and for example, there was a scene where grandmother was sitting in the living room. I changed the whole thing. I don't know if you guys saw, but now she was in the kitchen. I changed it. Original scene when she was in the living room and litla Verita came in and said, oh, granny, you know my aunt so and so said I may have a baby inside me.

And so the grandmother said, oh really. And then Courtney came in, who played the father at Courtney Vance, and was supposed to say what's wrong, and so grandmother said, well, and so and so said Rita may have a baby insider, and so his line was, well, maybe it is God's will. Well, I called up Paul Letter. I said, Paul thattt I'm a fan. I'm directing these two episodes, but we have to talk about this scene.

I don't think any grandmother, I don't care what cold they are, who raised their grandchild for twelve years, sent her on the road with her son for two months and she came back pregnant would take it like that. No grandmother would do that. So we rewrote the scene and it winds up being Paul let had taken Courtney in the room, slapping the hell out of them, saying you were supposed to watch her, you know, On and on and on and we rewrote the entire scene and Paul Letter got an NACP nomination for that scene. And that was just one of many situations during those two episodes that we had to go through. You know.

That was Ron Howard and Brian Glazer. Imagine was also National Geographic, and I wasn't very impressed with eitheram of them. I can say that publicly. They would say things to me like, you know, we did Einstein and we did Picasso. You know in Einstein he had sex with his secretary, and I was like, well, what the hell has happened to do with Rita Franklin.

Einstein's not a Rita Franklin. And like I said, I didn't come down here to make this kind of movie, and I refuse. The producers didn't. I guess they were scared of me. They didn't.

They would never want to set. One of them was on the set, and I know she hated being on the set. She was trying to overheard her say I'm trying to control Nima and she didn't know I was behind her, and I said, I tacked her and said you're wasting your time. But there was another scene if you look at the episode, where they want a childing circuit, and it was written as if he was in one bed, she was in another bed, he had his underwear on. She gets up and send my stomach hurts.

It looked very sketchy. So I spoke to Courtney. I said, we have to change that, and I have to say the cast have my back one hundred percent. And Cynthia was fantastic to work with, and so they were all work and so I rewrote it, and I told him that I'm going to have you shining your shoes because I remember my father used to hand shine his shoes. Then that's why I'm gonna do it in two shots, one with you shining your shoes, one with you in the bathroom.

He's fully dressed, he has the suspenders of pants on, he's shaving, and through the mirror you see Littlelaretha get up out of the bed and walk toward him. Become a two shot with him in the foreground, her in the background, and she says, Daddy, my stomach curts. And he hands her the Alca cells and say, here, drink that I told you by hanging out last night. Now go get dressed, because God doesn't wait for anybody. So that was the scene cut to I get a call from the producer, the one that tried to control me, neither, where's the footage?

Where's the footage? I said, call the editor. So she calls the editors. Where's the footage? The editor said, that's it.

So I thought to myself, checked me, okay, done and done. One shot, one shot, not. Going out like that, good luck, And we got We had the great look of getting Ron Howard's editor for the second set of editing, who is an African American editor who's excellent, who want to Oscar for cutting a beautiful mind? And I worked with him on raising Dion and he came in. He had he had little time.

He was on his way to England to cut Ron Howard's youth film and he came in and he recut both of my episodes back to the original way. And they couldn't say anything to him because he's Ron Howard's editor. So wound up being a good situation, you know, I mean, they hated me to the point is when it was ready to come out, they called my agent and said, well make sure nima us and we don't want her to doing any publicity for her two episodes because which which I let go. I didn't care as long as my cut was locked and I was happy with it. I just wanted my shows to be good, and they were.

So it was a battle that once again showed me that unfortunately, a lot of production companies, and particularly white production companies, who decide to do stories about people of color, are not really used to the people of color that they hire coming in with an opinion, coming in contradicting them with certain things. Because it's like on Raising Dion, you know, I had issues with the star and her image as a young black woman, and the showrunner was like, well, you know my husband is Cuban. Well, okay, okay, so what does that got to do with a black woman. I don't get it. You know, they get insulted.

Well no, but it doesn't matter to me. I go, I battle on and as long as I get the job done and I get my point across. Everything is not worth fighting for, but some things are. RETA Franklin story was worth fighting for, and we all fought for it, and I think it came out. You know, well, I mean he was a woman.

Well even in my two episodes, I made them put in a scene that he was also a strong civil rights leader. He was not only a woman eyeser, you know, he was a civil rights leader, and he did a lot more than just run after women. And I'm very proud that in my two episodes we got that in. Yeah, and it wasn't easy, but it's okay. How do you decide when to fight?

It depends on the subject, you know, it depends on how strongly I feel, you know, like in Raising Dion season one, which I'm very proud of my two episodes too. I had to fight very hard for those. But you know, the showrunner had no idea how black woman lives about black culture. You know, she was a single mother whose husband just died. There was no nothing about her parents, or her aunt or any extended family that came to put food refrigerator or help her before she got a job.

We don't work like that, you know what I mean. And she said to me, well, her mother is mad at her. Yeah, okay, but she's got a little baby and her husband just died. And I'm a mother and I don't care how mad a mother is. If her daughter's husband just died and she's in trouble and needs a job, the family is going to be there.

You see what I'm saying. So it was just that battle or like she's a dancer. There was no black artwork on the walls. Listen, I went to the original high school performing arts. I have a lot of dancing friends.

You know. It was just a lot going on. And she was trying to make She said, I'm trying to make a show that everyone can relate to. I said, everyone will relate to it if it's good. Everyone related to Boys in the Hood, which was an all black movie, but it was good.

It was about human beings. And you're telling a story about a black mother who has a black kid who is a superhero. Who do you think the first people are going to watch? Yeah, you know, it has to reflect reality, which if you look at the original short that Dennis lou was the Asian American, very talented young director who did the original shot. If you look at his short versus Howard would Duves and who was in the lead, it was a big difference, you know.

But Michael Jordan was involved and he played the deceased father. He was wonderful. Unfortunately I didn't get to work. He didn't work on my episodes, you know, but He was very supportive, and Macro with Charles King's company was involved. They were very supportive, and Netflix was very supportive.

Season one we had Seat Mann, who was fabulous director and a fabulous person, and you know, he kind of did the whole book that got the show sold in the first place, and so he had my back one hundred percent. You know, it's important when you do these shows that you're working with showrunners that trust you and have your back and fight for what you're doing is right. What are some of the other challenges about coming into an established show and doing an episode or trying to, you know, bring at the authenticity or whatever it may need to tell the story properly. I think that I'll give you. I'll just give you another example.

I did The Equalizer because they were doing a special episode about a Latino mother who was crossing the border with her son because her life was threatened, and when she got across the border, they took her son away. I suggested, we get an indigenous looking Latina, not a white looking Latina. So we get casting tapes and everybody's blonde and blue eye. So I called the casting director, I said, this is in New York. Now Okay, this was last year.

It's not like ten years ago. And I said, I thought we were looking for a more indigenous looking Latina. Well it's hard, I said, it's hard in New York City. It's hard to get an indigenous looking Latina, brown skin Latina. So wow, whoa you know.

But we wound up. You know, Queen was on our side, and we wound up getting someone very talented young woman. She was pert Rican, but she we changed this because every Latina doesn't speak the same way, yes, you know, so we had to fix that. And you know, the show came out very good. I knew I wouldn't be back because of the battles that I had to fight to get it done.

But it's okay. You know, I was proud of that episode and proud of what I could bring to it when I did reasonable doubt. You know, I didn't have any battles at all. You know, the script was working, the showrunner was fantastic, the cast was fantastic. You know, I just did my thing.

But it sounds like they come to you when they have something that they know needs to be done well and be done sincerely and be done right. Yeah. Well, I hope so yeah, I usually get a little problem areas. You know, they're specific about it. You know, well, you have to know that the first young lady they cast for Rita Franklin, was lighter than me.

And when I got down there, and you know how you have, Anthony had all the cast photographs up on the wall. I said, who's that? He said, Nina, sit down. You're not gonna believe it. That's little Loretha.

I said, oh no, Anthony, she can't be little Reitha. She's lighter than I am. Who would believe it? They cast it without him, and so we, in fact, we went. I was nervous because my two episodes centered on her.

And finally, after shooting a week, they let Anthony recast it. He had to recast and he had to shoot that entire week over. But this is just an example, and the reason why I'm highlighting it is because you know, I was Ron Howard fan. I didn't know Brian Glazer. None of them came down on the set to meet me.

While I was working. I didn't really get any respect except from the people who hired me, who never came down. They were very, very very nice, And now they're doing Martin Luther King and Malcolm X. Gonna be interesting to see how that comes out. And Gina is executive producer.

She's not a pushover, so, you know, Gina Brythwood. So I can't wait to see how that comes out, because they had thought they had a problem with me. You know, I'm sure it's gonna be good because Gina's not gonna, you know, go for any okie dok you know. But I was very disappointed at the treatment and the attitude, you know. And I think that when we did it with Anthony and myself and the cast, they met their grandmama drunk, you know, they realized this got a slap in the face that you know.

I don't care how big time they think they are. You know, there's there are people, there are talented people of color in Hollywood who work who are going to fight them back. And it doesn't matter whether you call us back again. What matters is the image control of our people, you know, and also the image control of women in general, you know, always playing the victim, this, that and the other. It's just a constant.

It's changing now, but it it was constant, you know. So I don't think they're used to it, you know. Still, unfortunately, I guess there's only a few of us who do speak up. You know. I don't expect anybody to speak up on my behalf.

I could do it on my own. And you know, the directors come and go in television, so we have less to lose. We're in and out anyway, you know. But the actors and other people, they're there for the duration, and so it's not as easy for them to speak up. I don't think they have any people of color executives, you know, in their organization to send down to help Susan Oyd Parks, who had never show run the television show before she was a playwright, you know.

So it was a difficult journey, you know. So I think, yeah, it's just one of those things where you you just have to fight when you feel it, when it's necessary, when it's just like, oh no, this cannot happen. You know. I've even used lines like all black Twitter's going to kill you if you do this, But they understand that, Oh yes, you think so, Nima, you think so. I said, ooh girl, you better fix that.

Nobody wants that. No, nobody wants black Twitter to get them. So yeah, and it's Aretha. I'm like, I don't understand I this was twenty twenty one, right. Yeah, yep, yep, yeah.

I was down here maybe about five months. It was a long journey. I did episode two and three and I'm very proud of those. It was just a battle, battle, battle, battle with everything, with the Martin Luther King character. She cut that out and my man put it back in.

It was just, uh, that's that journey. Well, let's take you back to the easier times of eighties television. Okay, yeah, yeah, okay, this is probably a good time to take a break. We'll be back. Hey, listeners, let me tell you about a project I've been working on for a couple of years now.

Famous Lake Park is an adult comedy puppet animation TV pilot about a wide eyed intern Josh, starting his dream job to work at his favorite childhood amusement park, Famous Lake Park, But instead of encountering the joyous dream of his youth, what he encounters is a metaphor for the dying American dream. It's weird, wacky, funny, adorable, and not safe for work. This is not a puppet animation workplace comedy for kids. This is South Park meets Avenue Q and it is premiering at the International Puppet French Festival in New York City in August. The festival runs August twelfth through sixteenth.

We are screening the movie the fifteenth and sixteenth, and the screening is free. We hope to sell out, so I recommend that if you are in the New York area, you go ahead and get your tickets now. I will be there. There will be at least one talk back. I think there's going to be two, but come say hello.

The link will be in the description. But you can find your free tickets at puppetfringenyc dot com. They're being paid for by the Fringe so that they can be free for you. Please come and check it out puppetfrenenyc dot com. And we're back and better than ever.

I'm curious about that moment where you saw your name on television directed by Nina Barnett. Did you have that moment? I did, and what did that feel like? I cried, I was shocked. I was more happy to get that thirty five hundred dollars check because we had been so broke.

I mean, at that time, that was the most money that I ever gotten in a week, you know, directing theater. You look if you get that in six months, you know. Yeah, I felt a sense of accomplishment and I felt a sense that I did it. You know, I got through it, and I learned a lot, you know, and I enjoyed it. You know.

There were ups and downs. They were ups and downs through all of it. But they prepared me for when I did Frank's Place and wind up getting signed by CIA, and then you know, did all of those eighty shows like China Beach. And It's a Living Seventh Heaven. Okay, that was another time that they hired me because it was a special episode with Jessica biel Yes, Jessica Bielle, her high school coach was harassing her sexually, so that's what the episode was about.

And I remember the Aaron Spelling people sitting me down and saying, Nino, we like your work with actors. We heard that you like to change the lines. You know, let me give you the rules in Aaron Spelling. No one wears hats, no one wears glasses, and no one changes the line. I said, okay, there wasn't even a woman empty and garbage on Seventh Heaven.

There was not even it wasn't a p face or green face, just all white faces. And you know, it wasn't easy. It wasn't easy. But I found that what I didn't know, I asked because I would feel more stupid trying to pretend that I knew things around people who've been doing it for twenty years that I didn't know. And I think people opened up to me more because I admitted what I didn't know and that I wanted to learn.

And then I was really good at what I did know, which is I had a sense of literature. I learned the lenses. I knew how to block because I had blocked in theater those things, and you know, I learned as I went. But it was I think it was a time where I didn't look back. I just kept doing it.

I didn't realize what I was doing. You know, when I did better off? There was it in the eighties ninety three, early nineties ninety three. Okay, girl, you got it, you know it. I did a little bit of homework.

It's a Living that was my first one. So I'm very very curious because you did like three episodes if It's a Living and we covered we've covered it's a living So we've we've we talked to Paul Krepple. I'm sure I was the only black director that I had a great time. I had a great time. They were very open and receptive and was a receptive Shirley Ralph.

You know, that was easy for me because that was almost like a play, you know, and I really enjoyed it. You know, when I signed I did that after I signed with CIA. It was Ron from CIA who was in charge of television. He said, you're a black girl. You got to learn to do every format.

I said, I want to do movies. He said, no, you got to do everything. I said, okay, So I did, you know every format? I did one camera film, four camera tape, I did after school special. Then I wound up doing ten two hour TV movies.

You know, I just did it all. My afi film was at the Whitney Museum at the New American Film Maker series Skycaptain, and David Putnam was there and he saw it and so he called me and put me in his new director's program at Columbia Pictures. And at that same time they called me for Frank's place because a lot of the black actors in Frank's place. I knew from Black Theater in New York. And Sam maut Williams, who is a very excellent playwright out of New York, was one of the co executive producer writers on the show and he had written this episode called Frank Joins the Club and he recommended me.

Sam wrote the script and he was so funny. He said, now'm Nima, I want you to act like you don't know me on the set because I don't want you to get me in any trouble. I said, okay, and so one of the roles was for I had suggested Max Juliet and Hugh Wilson, who was wonderful. He didn't know Max Juliet. And then I said, what about ron O'Neill.

He never heard of ron O'Neill. So I brought him Superfly and I showed him Superfly because my husband is a black movie maniac. He has every he had every movie. Uh and uh, I said you should get him. So he got.

We got ron O'Neill, and I real, maybe ever forget. The first day, I was so excited and I went on, you know, to meet him. I said, Hi, I'm missed o neil. My name is Mima Barnett. He was chain smoking.

He had his head down chain smoking. I said, I'm so happy to meet you. He didn't say anything. I said, so I thought maybe I should say one of his lines from the movie. So I said, I said, your mind is still ready.

You could get it if you want. He looked up. He said what'd you say. I said, your mind is still ready, you could get it if you want. He said, wait, that's my shop.

I said yeah. He said, who are you. I said, I'm I'm the director. I'm Nima Barnett. I'm the director, and I'm a big fan.

I learned another lesson that the black actors, who I thought was so brilliant. I saw him do a Fellow at the London Theater, so I knew he could do more than Superfly. And I learned a lesson doing Frank's Place, that so many black actors are so broken and damaged that when you give them a little attention, they don't even know how to take it. And I was in New York theater snob looking at these movies, going why are they doing this? Why are you doing that?

Why aren't they doing something better? Then I got out to Hollywood, and I learned through Osmosis. I learned the answer. People have tried before us, and people will try after us. It's a hard, tough role.

It's a hard battle to fight. And I treated all those actors with such dignity and glory, you know, like Francis I would make sure she was the older actress, make sure sure he's had a seat. And Ronald O'Neil was such a gentleman, so fantastic. That episode one an Emmy, you know, and he was the guest star of it. It's called Frank Joins the Club where you not lighter than a brown paper bag, you know.

And Hugh Wilson was wonderful, and I did another episode, and then there was another episode where he had Pam Breer on because I introduced him the Black Sploitation film, so he had watched Pam Grier and named Pam grim Nima. So I got my name in you know, the episodes. Yeah, it was nice. And one of the executives at Columbia said you should sign with CIA. I didn't know who Cia was.

So when I went for the interview with Mike Ovis, I said, will you have anybody black? He looked at me. He said, well, be happy to have a black girl just got out the mail room, and I'm going to put you with her, and Michael Rosen felt, Sonya, they're going to be your agents. I said, okay, as long as you have somebody black, because I don't want to be in a slave camp. And he said, okay.

I'm sure no one ever said anything like that to him. No, no, And he and I were born on the same day. He said, befourteen. He said, oh my god. So anyway, that's how that happened, and then that's how I got It's a Living.

It was shortly after that doing China Beach Rumor Piece, which also won the Peabody War where they thought my episode where they thought the war was going to be over but it wasn't. I told my agents I want to do something else. I can't keep doing on these TV shows. So they got me an after school special called Different Worlds that was in the eighties that had won a Junior Pulitzer Prize about a young black guy and a white girl in high school together a witness a murderer a bodega, and I shot it on Super sixteen and four and a half days and it won a couple of Daytime Emmys in the Peabody Award, And it was that piece that got me better off dead that it was that taking that step back to do that little after school special, to move forward into two hour movies.

Walking into a room as a black woman in the eighties on two aside into room to basically try to get a job or do a job, and what that feels like and how you how you go from Harlem to Hollywood. Yeah, it was painful. Yeah, well some of it just kind of you didn't pleasure, you said with other things you didn't know what you didn't know, and you just basically just were yourself and said, hey, you know, this is it. So that's right, Sharon, That's exactly what I did. You know, I came up at a time where we had leaders, you know, where we were fighting for black courses in college, where I had poets like Sovia Sanchez and Nikki Giovanni.

You know, we had Malcolm X, and we had ah Trap Brown, and we had we had leaders. You know, we had the Young Lords in Harlem, Latin Group fighting, we had the Panthers still around. So when I got out to Hollywood, I think my politics were kind of set, and so I just was used to confrontations. And I learned when we took over college, the Young Lords gave us a course in strategy for Revolution, and I took that course. What I learned strategy of revolution, and I applied it when I came to Hollywood.

So that's how I was able to pick and choose my battles and just kind of, you know, maneuver myself through it. Because when I began to walk in the rooms, it hit me that I was the only one. Then it hit me that it was important that I need to be there and I only need to be present. It's just like you're sitting, Like Malcolm said, you sit at the table, but that's not enough. You have to have something on your plate.

And you have to be a diner. If you're not a diner, you're just sitting there, it doesn't make any difference. You have to have something on your plate. So I kept thinking about that and you know, just maneuvering myself in. And I think that I came at a time when actors were tired of the furniture pushers directing.

You know, a lot of the ads and dps and people who didn't have as much storytelling experience, you know as theater directors had. So when I was coming in, they wanted more. They wanted directors who could help them with the story and that I knew. I had a sense of literature from theater, and I knew how to break a script down, and I knew how to tell a story. I knew going in the room that there was a ninety percent chance that I wouldn't get the job.

A lot of times I did get the job. When I did Zori is my Name, Zoran Neil Hurston Peace with Ruby d and then Whitfield and Paula Kelly and Oscar Brown Junior and a lot of good people. Yeah, when I was doing Zora, when it came time to do the part about Zora losing her benefactor, you know, and going downhill, the producers were like, we don't have time for that. We don't have time for that. I said, oh no, no, no, no.

I called up the director's girl. I said, Hi, my name is Ema Barnett. I'm a new member of the girl. I have a racial situation here. So he came and he made them move their monitors away from me.

I said, Oh, the Director's Guild has my back, and that's how I became a fan of the DGA. Describe a little bit more what made you call the DGA, and then how they sold it. I'm going to have Ruby just strip as she's doing a monologue, just take her pearls off. You'll take all the not strip naked, but stripped down as an image of her life going downhill. And they said, oh, we don't have time for that.

And I think mainly it was they were behind me one, which was getting on my nerves, and two when they didn't want me to do that single shot, which wind up being very powerful of Ruby, who was, you know, phenomenal doing that monologue. Taking her pearls off and everything, it was a bit much for me, and so I think that's what motivated me to call up the Director's Guild and say this is an issue. And they said, well, what do you mean? I said what do I mean? I said, you know, as long as she's singing and dancing, everything is fine.

But when it comes to the part of her life, you know, where she was in trouble and she was going downhill, you want to cut that out. And that's an important part of her life, and I'm not going to stand for you know, being young and crazy, you know, just go going off. Good for you though, I'm loving that. I mean that's clearly you know. It may, as you said, have cost you jobs, but it also got you jobs.

Yeah, that's true. Actors remember that. Yeah. Producers when they see it finally done, they're like, okay, fine. Oh listen, it was such a big hit.

They got such great reviews. And you know what makes me the most happiest, I'll tell you it was. Must have been two weeks ago. I was going through Instagram and this organization African American Women in Film had written I was on YouTube and I ran into this piece that Nima Bardinet directed closed Zora is my name, and she was so impressed with her that she put a piece of it on Instagram, and I thought, hmm, that's why I thought. How many years later, I mean, my god, thirty years later and it's in every library.

People still quote it, you know, and in television work doesn't last that long a lot of times. And to see it on Instagram, of all things. You're inspiring a whole new generation. With the truth. Yeah, that's the thing.

It's like I went for interview once in the studio, God wanted to do a story in the Panthers, and he was going on and on and on, and so I said, but it didn't happen like that, and he said, no, I know, it didn't happen like that, but that's why I want to tell it. So I got up. I said, well, I guess this meeting is over because I'm not a distort of history. You know that I cannot do. I mean, you know, there's a lot of people in our business that have a lot of nerves, a lot of egos, a lot of overseers of other cultures, and you run into them mainly when you're dealing with stories about other cultures.

So as long as people feel they could be an overseer, I think they feel comfortable. We have so much talent. We don't need overseers. Now, you know, we need collaborators. If you're going to collaborate, that's fine.

But if you're going to oversee, I think you just need to buy plantation and get some slaves, because nobody wants to deal with the overseer at this point. Yeah, you know, I think that things are changing for the better. My God a lot better. But there's still issues certain shows go or television because of the content and what they're saying. You know, there's still a controlling force around, you know, but it's getting better and better.

Sorry I went off the beaten track. Let's talk about a different world. Okay, great experience. I was Bainly doing Cospiece and Dad Munford was one of the executive producers. I was on the contract with Carsie Erunner, and when Debbie didn't want to direct the episode, they would fly me out to do it.

I did several episodes I was very proud of. They came out very well. One with Glenn Turnman and Denise Nichols got to work with her and the kids were great. A Different World was a great experience, you know, it was. I had a couple of episodes, like once they wanted to put a mop on one of the young actress's head and she was crying and I had to go in and deal with I can't remember the line producer's name.

It was not very happy with me, but you know, I thought we got the mop off of her head. I bet she appreciated that she did. She did, but that was a battle, you know, And then they went into Debbie and well, Nina's not doing what we want to do. Debbie said, well, why are you coming into me? I can't help you, you know.

So Debbie had my back and oh and I did Ouser's first. I think it was one of her first a TV writing show. Who's now she's a very famous writer and showrunner. I think I directed one of her first episodes that she wrote. She was happy and I enjoyed it, you know, it was fun.

And was that your first time working with Debbie Allen or had you worked with Yes? No, I did not. I worked with her sister on The Cosby Show, but I had never worked with Debbie Allen before. I didn't work with her then because she wasn't around. I love Debbie and how she's been able to use her fame to do good.

I really enjoyed The Cosby Show. It's very creative because you know, Bill did not like to rehearse, so you come in on Monday, you read the script. And how I got my first episode was my friend had a mother's group and I was directing Frank's place and Tom Werner's brother was at COVID Studios and saw me Jurey. Peter Werner told Tom Warner about me, and then Jay Sandridge called me during my lunch period into the room and said, uh, you know, I'm Jay Sandridge. I'm work at the Cosby Show and I was looking at your episode of What's Happening Now.

I don't know if you could direct Bill Cosby because he never says the same thing twice, he never moved the same way, and you have all these strange film shots in your sitcom. And I didn't say anything. I said, uh huh. So cut to I'm in New York directing the play. They called me.

They say they want me to come to the set to meet the executive producers and meet Bill Cosby and Queen. So I go up there and I said, they said, well, can you observe? I said no, I said, I can't observe. I'm directing a playoff Broadway. If you want to hire me, and just hire me.

And I said, by the way, mister Cosby, my friend has a mother's group and I was wondering if I could get tickets, you know, for them, and he said, you know, every time a woman is pregnant, they always want special treatment. And I said, well, if you were pregnant, you would know how women. And he looked at me. He said, what's your name again? I said, Niema, I just met you.

He said, oh yeah, okay, well that's the show you're going to do, and he called the writers in. They hired me and he had them write an episode where all the men get pregnant and I directed it. And I remember Jay seeing me on the set stop at me and saying, oh my god, Nima, I heard the episode that Bill is going to have you do. And aren't you directing a play? Didn't your play go off Broadway?

I said, yeah, oh well, I'll talk to Terry Gourmary, who's one of the producers, and I think, you know, I let them give you another episode. I'll take that episode. So then I did my black women thing, put my hand on my hip. I said, that's okay, sweetheart, I gotta come here. I said to myself, you like getting that.

When the funny thing was that episode got nominated for an International Monitor Award and they gave the ceremony at City Center. Jay was nominated. All these old guys were nominated, and I won. I won the International Manchu Word for Best Directing for the days it sport was led. So after I did that, they signed me to a two year pay of play.

And it was great because, like I said, Bill didn't rehearse. Come in Monday like the script or not like the script. Tuesday we'd do a rehearsal or reading. Wednesday we would do rehearsal without him, and Thursday we would shoot with a live audience and that was it. So there was really basically no rehearsal, just a little bit because mainly the scripts weren't ready and it was almost like live theater.

I think that's why I had such a good time and I enjoyed it so much because it was spur of the moment, you know, and I was able. They let me do whatever I want. I was able to shoot. I shot film styles because that's what I knew, you know. It was exciting in front of a live audience.

And Bill had an isolated camera because he never said he said whatever you wanted, you know. Everybody else had to stick to the script and it took forever to cut an episode. But it was very creative, you know, very creative time. If you come in with creative ideas, it's good. If you don't come in with anything, it's not good.

So I guess by my husband having done stand up, I knew how to handle mister C. It's like, you laugh at the jokes that even aren't funny, and then he wears himself out. He goes in the office, takes a nap, and then we rehearse everything while he's sleeping, and then he gets back up with a bunch of energy and then we go again. So that's just like my husband, he did the same thing. So I just so, yeah, mister C, maybe you should booh, you know, go into office, take a nap, and we'll just go rehearse.

Okay, yeah, good idea. So that's how we got it done. But I learned a lot, learned a lot about comedy. Yacom became a fan of mine and they gave me a lot of work in the eighties, and I did Diagnosis Murder with Dick Van Dyke, which was a joy. What a wonderful person.

Funny. I was too green to know what not to do. So, you know, some of the dialogue was just so bad and so worthy. I broke out laughing, and Dick would saying what's wrong. I said, I'm sorry, Dick, but I don't understand the word you said.

He said, I don't understand it, you know, coming from theaters, like some bad writing, it's just hard, hard to digest, you know. But yeah, So I was very fortunate. I learned a lot about comedy from these people. Then I got to work with John Ridder on Hooperman in the eighties. Then I got to work with Jason Ridder his son on Raising Dionce.

He's say the villain, that's right, he played the villain. So I told him. I brought a picture and I said, look, that's a picture of your father, and I you know, I directed him. So yeah, and it was fun. I enjoyed it because every show was different and I got to fulfill creative juices in a different way.

It was challenging, you know, back then, difficult, yes, and the fact that you feel the stairs, you feel the doubts until you do what you do and then they feel a little more comfortable. I got more comfortable with my ability as I went on. But what I knew from the beginning I was very comfortable with. And that's my sense of actress and story. You know, you fell alone a lot.

I don't know why. I mean I guess because I didn't see anybody who looked like me, and you know, there weren't very many women who were friendly, you know, to me. Then I when I met with boslen Heller, and of course you know who the Queen of Women's Live, Gloria Steinhem thank you, yes she was. She was one of the executive producers of Better Off Debt. I got a meeting with Gloria and Boslyn and they said, what do you think of the script?

And I said, well, it's typical. You know, you have the black girl who's in jail and the white woman who's her attorney. I think it was the first white women black woman movie that lifetime I had ever done. And so she said, well, what would you do? I said, I switch it around.

I make the black woman the attorney who thinks she could do what her boss does and she reaches the glass ceiling, and the white girl would be the bad girl. And they looked at me and they said hmm. So I got my car and then one of my agents called me. He said, pull over, you got the job. I said what Because when he called me first and he said how to go, I said, I opened my big mouth.

I told him what I was. I told him reverse the whole thing. Well, obviously at worked. They hired me and I got to do better off there to work with Mayor Whittingham and Tyra Farrell, and that movie got rave reviews and they said, why can't all Lifetime movies be like that? Of course, it had every political issue but the kitchen sink because you had Roslin Heller and Gloria Steinem you know, but great experience got to work with Uli Steiger, Great DP.

It was a racial issue there with Lifetime. You know, they were calling me telling me I was giving the black woman more's close ups than Mayor, which wasn't true. I know it was a racial issue, but I was directing. I didn't really have time to deal with it, you know, But I just didn't pay him any mind. I just went on and did what I did.

I got to hire my editor, David Baby, who cut my afi film, and we cut the hell out of it and we did a great job. We worked hard and it was exciting. You know. I had my friend Julie dash you know, who's fabulous, who did doing something. She came out to Seattle with me just for a couple of days to visit and it was exciting, you know, doing the movie.

I shot in eighteen days, and then they gave me a view finder that the. Whole crew pitched in, which was nice. You know, that's a lovely gift. Get Yes, it was, it was, and I was very happy. We had a great time.

I mean, you know, if I don't feel comfortable in an environment, I can't do my best. You know, I don't do well creatively with a bunch of people on my back and too many restrictions. And I don't restrict my department has. I hired them for their specialty and I let them do it. I have of course, as you know from talking to me this long, I have opinions.

But what good director doesn't have opinions, you know. But I'm a team player, you know. You can't make a movie by yourself. It's a team. And so we had a great team and we made it work.

And then Gloria, of course, being famous, she took it all the way, all this publicity and everything. It was fun. Oh my gosh. Yeah, I was proud of it. It came out to be a good movie.

It's a classic. You know. Mayor was fabulous and when I met her the first day she hugged me. I'm so glad you flipped that around. Gloria told me you the one of flipping around.

And she played the hell out of that bad girl. You know, I'm sure she loved it. She's always playing the good girl, if you will, the sort on the earth, salt of the earth kind of character. That's correct, Sharon, No, she loved it. She worked it too.

It was a joy and Tyber worked it. A lot happened, you know, Mayor got pregnant in jail. It was a mess. It's a lot going on in that movie. People like Roslin and Gloria and Jean Furstenberg at Afi, who became like a second mother to me.

These are women that really championed me and helped me, and during my downtimes, they were there along with my team of friends like Iolaka Genzara and Julie Dash and Michelle Mattier and who's on Paulsy and all these early women of color filmmakers that we were all friends and we would get on the phone and you know, console each other and talk about our experiences. I mean, I think it's important, particularly for women to have a tribe like you guys are a tribe. You know, you have to have your tribe, and so I mean that helped me quite a bit during the hard, difficult times of sexism, working in a man's world where everyone around you wants to be the director television and you'd come in as a director.

You don't know they're you know, mumbling under their breath, and the dps who want to direct and this and that. It's you know, it's it could be a hot mess sometimes, but like I said, it comes with the territory, you know, and you have to just prove that you're there to tell a story and you respect every job that everyone has and treat them with respect, and I think it'll work out. You know. I came into a lot of difficult times because I was a woman, because I was black, But it was okay. I knew, you know, sometimes you could feel when these things are happening and people don't trust you, or they don't respect you, or they think you're just there.

And I mentioned Warren Adam before because when I started working a lot, I called him. I said, Warren, are these people just feeling a slot? He said, Nima, there's no affirmative action in this business. Because back then there wasn't. Tell us a little bit about how you got involved with Queen Sugar and that story.

Well, right on the height of me doing all these TV movies and stuff, we divas scattered Dreams with Todd Day and Joel McCraney, Lisa Silverstone talked the time you did we did for Cactay and Lacey. That movie got an A and People magazine and won two Emmys. I don't know how I did it. It was a big movie and I did it in such a little time, but I did it, and I did it well. It came out grade anyway.

I was at the height of TV movies and my mom got sick, so I went to New York. I left CIA, I left everything. I left my daughter and my husband in La too, and I went back home to Harlem to take care of my mother, which lasted five years. So when I came back, I didn't have anything. I didn't have an agent, I didn't have a job.

Gil Gates called me. This was in the late nineties. They didn't have anybody black at UCLA who had a master, so they asked me to teach. So I took the job to teach once a term there. Then Barbara court Day became head of USC.

That's how I was making a living. I was teaching it U and USC. Then Marl Brock called me out of the blue and she wanted me to direct the block of Being Mary Jane on BT because that special episode, like you said, with Jill Scott and I didn't have an age or anything. I said, I'll do it. So I did that, and Paul Garnes, who is Ava's producing partner, was the upm on that show.

Paul said, you should get Nema Barnett. I just worked with her. The crew loved her. I guess he thought the crew loved me because they all pitched in and bought me T shirts with my face on the front and my saying couldn't print that sucker on the back, So I guess they did love me. That's my saying when I like a good take.

Ava called me and she said, I'm gonna offer you this job. You don't have to jump any hoops, you don't have to get approval from anyone. And I'm doing this TV show and it has all women directors. And I was like, huh. She said all women directors, So what could I say?

No? I said, well, of course I didn't even know what the producing j RECU Dick quite honestly, but I said, yes, I'll take it, you know. So that's how I got Queen Sugar season one, and I was teaching it also at Afi. They put me on permanent faculty at AFI, and so I had to lead my little babies at Afi and go to do Queen Sugar. And that was a thirteen month journey season one, you know, with Ava and I directed episode three.

She did one and two. I did three, and I did episode seven with a group of very interesting filmmakers Sally Richison so Young, Kim kat Handler, Tina Mayberry, Tanya Hamilton, Victoria Mahoney. It was a group, indeed interesting group, and we went on and we made season one of Queen Sugar. You know, it was sweating tears. I will say it wasn't easy, but you know, I had a bit of experience in television that I tried to give them as far as what would work and what wouldn't, but also keep what Ava wanted, which was not to do it the regular way, to allow because these women were talented, they had done movies already, but they had they were trying to get into TV to make some money for years and they couldn't do it.

So, you know, instead of having a lumicrane, I told them, you know, we just put the cameraman on the ladder and have him do a high shot, you know, because you don't have the money. And so the ratings came out and I started getting calls. But what a joy it was to work on Queen Sugar, What a joy it was to work with all women directors. I'm thinking when Ava completed Queen Sugar was last season, she had called me back to be producing director of the final season, but I was booked. I couldn't do it.

But I did do Naomi for her. But she's got about forty something women in the director's guild created an army. She changed the face of television. Yes she did, Yes she did. That's the power that people in charge can do.

And she used it for that. Oh yes she did. She is a force to be reckoned with, you know, a brilliant, brilliant, brilliant, brilliant woman. And she changed the face of television. And people don't give her enough credit for that.

And there has not been an all women directing show since Queen Sugar, I doubt if there will be. I mean, Ava got calls from male directors. Why that's not fair. They complained to the director's guild. You know, how can she have all women?

I mean it was deep, but you know, Ava persevered and Queen Sugar was a fantastic show. Queen Sugar was special. It was a unique show. I'm honored to this day to have been a part of it, particularly season one, which I think was one of the best seasons. But you know, I say that personally, but I think that with all the tears and agony that we went through, sometimes you need to go through that creatively to get the best product.

So I wasn't surprised. Like I would always tell Ava, don't worry about the budget because if it's a hit, and it was season two, she got two dps, two ads, two sets of crews. You know, bottom line is to make it good, and that's what we did. We made it good and then it went on for us like six seasons, I think, and made all these women's careers. I mean, Sally is you know, Sally executive produced that Lakers HBO show, So so young Kim's name on something she did a five part special series for Netflix, and Tanya Hamilton was one of the producing director on The Rickley Scott Show.

They're all doing amazing things. That first season set it off. I mean a lot of people are working from the other seasons too. Ava gave Julie episode one year and then gave a Kuchen's Era, my other old friend for thirty years another episode. She loved it so much she retired from mom Spelman, where she was head of Spelman, and now she's running around directing TV and loving it.

I love it, you know. And you and Julie did Women of the Movement as well, and a couple of other TV shows. They like it because they're independent filmmakers. You know. Ava changed the face of television and I adore her and I always give her credit for reaching out and hiring me and really re energizing my entire career.

And you can't say that too many people do that now, you know, so many people don't remember who was there first and what we did. But she did remember, and I always love her for that. Yeah, and honor it with action, which is incredible, Always with action, you know. And not only that, she didn't leave them hanging you know, when the directors completed their journey on Queen Sugar, she had agents lined up for them. She made sure that they got agents.

She got them jobs and agents in the beginning, so they weren't left hanging, you know, right, that's so rare because even at Afi, I did a masterclass several months ago with a bunch of students, and I'm helping them get jobs. They're graduating the thesis film. They're scared to death. They don't know where to go. You know, no one's offering them anything.

It's scary. It's a tough time. Yeah, yeah, it's a tough time. I mean, you know, it's important not to leave young artists out in the cold when they leave the wound of school where it's warm and comfortable in a creative environment, and then you go out in the world and you're like, Okay, what do I do now? You know.

I mean I've been told stories by students where their teachers tell them, well, why don't you buy some property and then you could use the money you make from the property to make your film. And the girl told me, she said, Nima, my parents took a third mortgage job of the house to send me the ALFI so I don't know what he's talking about, you know, I mean film is elitist business. You know. When they first mentioned to me way back in the eighties, well you have to observe. I was like, oh no, I cannot afford to observe.

I have a little baby girl, I got an actor husband who's out of work. I gotta work. When I did the Cosme show, I said, I'm I'm observing on anything. I'll observe if you hire me, if I'm guaranteed the job. And again they looked at me like I was on crack.

But they did hire me, and then I observed, you know, so because you can't leave people hanging out there like that, you know, they don't know what to do. And now it's even more competitive. You know, when I was doing TV, not a lot of people filmmakers wanted to do TV. It was looked down upon where I came from. You know, now everybody's doing TV.

Yeah. Going back to Queen Sugar for just a moment. You mentioned you went there as a director producer. Can you talk a little bit about what the producer aspect of your role was and what you were doing. I was on the set every day, and I tried to create a new paradigm and not use it like the guys used it in the past, but have my position just be an encouraging position.

Take their vision, but just teach them how to do it on a television budget. And I worked a lot in the producing capacity just like that on the set, not money wise, but showing them how looking at their vision and giving them options because we didn't have the money for a lumin crane, or we didn't have the money for a drone, so how else can you get that vision across? And I would give them several alternatives to that, you know, and encourage them in areas you know that they were used to like. So Young Kim asked me, what does she do? I said, she's a script supervisor.

What does a script supervisor do? Because oh Young Kim did her independent movies with her DP, her actor and that was it. She didn't have a script supervisor. She didn't know what script supervisor did. So introducing them to the tools that they have that a lot of them didn't have when they were doing their independent films, so they could focus more on directing my solo Kim saying, oh, so many words, and even too many words.

I said, well, welcome to the world of television. You got two little baby girls, you want to get their college degree, you want to make some money. There's nothing you could do about this. Verbal diagree, it's going to be there, and you just try to put as many images in as you can and keep it moving. And she, you know, she's doing great now.

But you know, these were some of the things I was able to contribute, long talks, going over their shot list, helping them, you know, just. Helping them to succeed, both as becoming a television directors working television director, yes, yes, and creating an environment that well, hopefully encourage them to do the same as they move forward in their lives instead of what seemed to be in the past. Well, I had to go through the tortures of the damn so you figure it out yourself. Kind of mentality that seemed to exist before. That's amazing, that's really really amazing.

I mean, if you think making a movie is like entertainment tonight, you're wrong. It's more like construction work. You know, it's no joke. You know, if you never took vibams before, you better take me out that is no joke. You know, shooting a show or movie is no joke, and TV is very fast paced.

But you know, it worked out, It worked out, and the actors were wonderful. The directors came with what they had, which is talent, and did great, great episodes. I know, once I was going through Facebook, I'm not gonna mention your name, because she was in Leslie's in my class at AF five, said something of well, they're always talking about a Ava Ava, and I got very upset and I wrote a rebuttal of Facebook. It's like, okay, yeah, because Ava Duvinet changed the face of television and no one has ever since her done a show with all women, directors of every color and every nationality. She deserves all the credit she gets, Let's trust me.

You know, there's a lot of people that didn't like what she did, as you can imagine, sure, you know, and what she did, but she held on, she held strong, and I was so happy that the show came out so beautifully because that gave her something to really, you know, stick her chest out with. And you know, if you know Ava, you know, she worked it. She worked it, you know, and she loves women and she fought for us, and she knew, you know, from her own experiences as a young director and all the doors that were closed and all the things that people said to her. Trouble with women is that we don't get as much experience as in men, so we can't perfect our craft as much as the men can. And we need that experience.

And like you said, Sharon, which is very important for them to open up the doors to other women. That's the key, and I think that's what Abel wanted most. The future will tell you know, since I left Queen Sugar, I think I mentored twelve women, got them all in the guild. They all, you know, shadowed me and I work with them. I still do it, and I'm sure a lot of other people do it.

Thank you. That's hutuly important. Yeah, you are to be commended for that. Yeah, well, thank you, But you know, no, it's very important. I mean, I don't think I'm to be commended.

I do it because I know it's important and someone did it for me. And you know, guys, I'm a street girl from Harlem and I'm loyal. You know, when someone does something for me, I don't forget it. And I know it's important, and you have to reach out. That's the main thing.

We have to let each other in and that's why I'm here today. But we so appreciate it because you guys called me and I said, I have to do it. I don't like to do too many you know shows. You don't see me too much doing these things. I get a lot some offers, but just I thought was important.

You accepted ours. Thank you so much. Well, I'm an eighties girl, you are now. I just wanted to did you work with Susan fails Hell on a different world? I did work with Susan and I worked with her mother, Josephine Promise on the Robi Gillon Show.

Oh all right, so I loved her mother. Mother gave me a beauti fit pair of earrings which I still have in my jewelry box. I'm afraid to wear because they're so gorgeous that she got from Paris. You know, her mother was friends with Josephine Baker. Oh wow, really, Susan Phail's mother was a star.

You know. I didn't go to Harvard, I didn't go to Yale. I went to City College and then I went to NYU Graduate School. So you know, Like I said, film is the Eliti's business, and there's a lot of clicks and a lot of different tribes out there. So my battle was a little more difficult because I didn't have those Ivy League connections.

But I got there, you know, I got there. Where can people find you? My husband and I have our Black History Many docs and I love them. They're so thank you fun, they're so great, so make you want to go look up everything. Yes, yes, we're going on our tenth year and we were featured at the Abraham Lincoln Museum last Black History Month.

A scholar from Harvard did a whole month and every day showed Black History many docs and you can go to our Black Historymany Docs dot com site and see all the mini docs we did. It's a family affair and we do it for free because we both felt what could we do? What could we do? One thing we do know, if you don't know where you come from, you don't you never know where you're going exactly. And I think that there's so many, Like I said, from my experience in Hollywood, particularly working with actors of color, noticing how damaged and broken they were and how badly they were treated, I thought it was very important.

My husband and I both thought it was important for them to know what royalty they come from, you know. So it's important. And so we're very proud of our Black History Manity dogs. So they can reach me on Black Historymanity docs dot com, or on Instagram, NEMA Films, or on Facebook. I'm there social media there.

Ava taught me that I was not on social media before Ava. But you know, Ava does not play with their social media. Got to do it. She started as a publicist, right yeah, oh yeah, she knows the power. Oh yeah, she actually rabbed my phone and put me on those social media She's like, got to do it.

So and I want to take a minute to thank you women for what you do. I think it's fabulous. Thank you, And I'm going to be a fan because I'm a podcast person and I'm honored that you guys called me because the eighties was an important time for me, important time for everybody in television. You know, a lot of things change, and so continue on, sisters, Queen's continue on. Thank you, and we look forward to hearing your thoughts when you listen to some of the episodes.

We always like to hear what our listeners think about the episodes and so now you'll be one of them. So that'd be great love to hear from you. Thank you, Sharon, Take care, guys, have a great day. Thank you. Thank you.

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You can find out more about Nima Barnett at Instagram dot com slash Nima Films and on Twitter at Twitter dot com slash nim Rick inn E E M R c K. And you can watch the really cool black history mini docs you mentioned at blackhistoryminidocs dot com. The advertising you hear on this show, he is very very very little of the cost of producing this show. The best way to support this show and not hear ads is on Patreon dot com slash eightiestv Ladies. We really appreciate your support.

Our next episode will continue our look at a different world. Actually, dear listeners, as we come out of our summer of transitions, I'm happy to report that our next episode is a new one where Susan and I talk about our end of summer and the nineteen eighties TV fall preview promo shows and the golden age of TV Guide. Let's wrap up summer with a look back and a leap forward. Join us. We hope Eighties TV Ladies brings you joy and laughter and lots of fabulous new and old shows to watch, all of which will lead us forward toward being amazing ladies of the twenty first century.

Like Nimo Burnett, we wish baby stay fix it so pretty, and you. Still bett out into the city every stabul coping train and getting working hard for the money, the man world, anything