Special Presentation: The Love Boat Podcast with Loretta Swit

Hey, Happy New Year, Happy twenty twenty six. Welcome to eighties TV Ladies twenty twenty six. We have a very special New Year's gift for you, dear listeners. We're taking this week off because Susan's in Atlanta, Georgia, working on a concert reading of her new musical. The Flirt Bar.

That's right. We have a concert reading of The Flirt Bar with songs by Amy Ray and Michelle Malone this coming Saturday and Sunday at Synchronicity Theater in Atlanta. This is really cool, a very important developmental step for the project. And we start rehearsals on Monday. And I'm still tired from the holidays.

Did you have a good holiday, Sharon? Overall? Definitely. Both of my sisters were in town. Both got to be here for about two weeks, and that's unusual for my sister Janet, who lives in Houston.

She is usually only able to be here for a few days. So the fact that she got so much time off was really great. The downside is that my mom came down with a little bit of a virus last weekend, which kept her in bed for a few days, and doctor says it just some sort of virus, nothing serious it she just needs some time to recover and she is slowly getting her energy back, being able to uh to keep down food, et cetera. It's but it's a process. It's a process.

But she she is on the right going in the right direction, which makes all the difference. That's so great. I'm glad to hear that she's going in the right direction. I think we all well, not we all, but I definitely also got a little punched in the face by some sort of the la holiday cold. But I had a great time as well, spend it with the family.

All the kids were home and also so I was partying and working all week getting ready for this week. We are so thrilled to have this opportunity to share an episode of one of our favorite new podcasts with you. And don't worry, Sharon and I will be back with all new episodes of eighties TV Ladies in two weeks. But to get to share this special surprise, an exclusive feed drop episode of the love Boat Podcast Exciting and New. That's right, there is a love Boat podcast with cast members.

Sharon, I am so excited. The love Boat Podcast is a TV film and comedy podcast with Fred Grandy, Ted Lange, and Jill Wheeland. That's right, Gopher, Isaac, you're bartender and Captain Steubings's daughter, Vicky. I was so in love with her. I thought she was so cool and I was like, I want to be Captain Steuben's daughter.

This is a truly amazing podcast and I'm so thrilled we get to bring our listeners this bonus episode. Each week, the love Boat Podcast welcomes friends, guest stars, and fans for a lively and hilarious and very warm conversation. It's a brand new adventure with the people who made The Love Boat unforgettable. I mean, seriously, Sharon, It's it's been such a I've so enjoying this podcast. Oh me too.

The love Boat Podcast officially launched November ninth, but the first episode they dropped was on November eighth, as an honor to the incredible Loretta Sweat, who passed away May thirtieth, twenty twenty five. And this is her last recorded interview, and how fitting that it is with her dear friends from the Love Boat. It's really cool. Loretta Sweat is an Emmy Award winning actress and star of Mash but she is also a seventies and eighties TV lady icon and appeared in five episodes of The Love Boat. It was a dream of ours to get to interview Miss Loretta Switch.

She was one of the first people we tried to get on the show. We tried to get her for our Cagney and Lacy episodes because she was the original Cagney, but we could not make the stars aligned. And I'm so grateful to the love Boat Podcast for letting us share this one with you. So step on board and lean in as Loretta joins Fred, Ted, Jill and Berniel for an unforgettable conversation. If you enjoy this episode as much as we do, please search for the love Boat Podcast wherever you get your podcast and subscribe to them.

You can also find them at loveboatpodcast dot com and rest in power, Miss Loretta Sweat enjoy. Before we begin, we want to take a moment to honor the incredible Loretta Sweat and icon, an artist and a very dear friend to all of us. This conversation was the final interview she gave, and we are so grateful to share her voice, and her humor and her wisdom one more time. Loretta was a dynamic personality. She was wonderful and once she set her sights on where you should be dancing, you had no choice but to dance.

She was like a big sister. She was like a lovely big sister and a wonderful, wonderful Veta trend that would pass on the information to you. She was such a joy and had such a love for the industry that we have all been lucky enough to work in for so many years, and to have somebody who had such affection for the craft. And it didn't matter where you were in your career or what level you were. She was a generous, kind person and I so enjoyed our time with her.

I miss her, I love her, and I think she was fantastic. There is a ship's horn which means you are on board with the Love Boat podcast hosted by yours truly Fred Grandie, also known as Gopher Smith. You're Yeoman Purser, featuring my distinguished colleagues, Ted Lange known as Isaac the Bartender, and of course Jill Wheeland, the Captain's daughter, Vicky Stubing, and now to our distinguished guest star. Can I introduce my friend. You may do that.

Let's do that right. Now, because we want to talk to her. It is the lovely Loretta Switt, also known as hot Lips. I actually prefer major because I like how ranking everybody of the work here. But it's okay, it's okay, as long as as you pucker when you call me hot Lips, I accept it.

Okay. Well, now you know when you did when you did our show, you were probably of a higher rank because you were playing a Russian commissar in the episode it was called Anushka. What a great time, What a great time. Of course, my love Bernie, he was. We were so good together and it was a.

Real highlight for me that show and I because I did I think three three loved boats. I did the pilot. You did good, Mulligan, Yeah, with Richard Mulligan and Robert Reid and Pamela Bell. I help you guys get on the air. Absolutely, that's right, Mulligan.

You know you help Cagney and Lacy get on them. Oh I made them. Yeah, you know, they tried. When they finally approached me, they had been trying, like for six or seven years. They even offered the network Roquel Welsh in my role really.

Believe that I won hope over Roquel felt. I believe it. I believe. Well you can act, you can act circles around her. So there you have it.

You are spectacular. I I really you. She is who she is. You're gonna hire her for that? Do it?

You know? He's very good in whatever happened to Sheila? Whatever the name that is? That? What?

What? How do you tell you? The mystery? Stephen? Some things?

Oh no, no. Movie, the right director and a good script. She's She's there for you. The last of Sheila. That's Stephen sound Stephen Sondheim wrote that script.

Oh is that right? Yeah? Stephen Sondheim wrote that script. Okay, I did know that. I looked for the songs.

I didn't see any. Listen, uh, Loretta, we have another guess from your past. He's on here with us. He's asked per your instructions. My dear.

Yes, I like to think of it as a request. Yeah. We took it as do this or die? Know yourself? Bernie Coppel, are you there?

I'm right here, Hello, my love? How woa, my darling? You wrote this sweet note after we did or unders and and I still have it in my uh my Treasury Box. But we had such a good time, didn't we. I all the episode again last night.

It works, doesn't it? It works? Oh my, oh it's timeless. I mean, but Loretta, tell us, where did you come up with the Russian accent? How did you?

Where did you? I'm Polish? Actually there, your powers that be thought that they would offer it to either me or Natalie. Wood who's Russian. What they made the right choice with you?

Well, you know, absolutely. Natalie would have held a good job too. But I think that Bernie and I had magic. Yes, I think that Bernie and I really had chemistry, and we loved both parts. I know.

Bernie, of course, loved doing doc and I really loved the words, some of the words that they gave me to say, Like Bernie is proposing, he wants me to stay with him, honestly, and I said to him, you love this country very much, don't you? And he says, yes, very much. And she gets the chance, as a Russian to say, I too love my country, and I was very touched by that. I was very touched by the opportunity to say for her side. And I loved how human they made that Russian commissarg.

No and this was like eleven years before the wall came down, so you know, this is the height of the Soviet Union. And we loved how human you made the character. No really really, I mean you you just it. Was something beautiful and the chemistry that you and Bernie had together was so palpable and just leapt off the screen in such a beautiful way. I mean, it was truly one of my favorite favorite episodes.

If they could, if they could have found a way to bring me back somehow and have this continuing arc going with Doc. But how do you do? She's gonna commute. So it really was so special. Let me ask him, Let me ask something about the show, because Bernie, you did two stunts in that show.

You remember, Yes, you fell down backwards when you were having vodka in the dining room and you fell into that laundry hamper. Now that was you, right, They didn't w how about that. That was not a stunt person, That was mer Bernie. Did you hit your head? And that's why you're like you are there?

You he got it? How you tell us. My age? I've been sort of following your other. Career when you weren't sailing on the boat and I happened to see your columb Was it a Columba or a monk?

The one that I write about it was it was monk. You were just so It's so delightful to watch people who have established strongly a character in a series see them, you know, somewhere else, a different environment, costume, accent maybe, and see them spread their wings and you know, throw you off your chair because they're like, wow, powerful. Like Fred Grandy in the film that we we didn't. Yeah, play the flute. Yeah, he is like the best thing in in it.

No, no, no, no, no, listen. Loretta and I were in Home. Well it was called play the Flute. Loretta and I were in a movie together, but we were never together in a movie. We had work together.

So I get to watch him, get to watch the performance. Go wow, he's so good. But best thing in the film you and I was second best? Well I would, I would, I would reverse that because you had you had a smaller part. Yeah, well second best.

We were on equal footing there. You didn't have to drive to Kentucky to do it, though, did you the heavens? No, well I did. I had to drive in. It was right after Hurricane uh what was her name?

Hurricane Irma. And I was driving up from North Carolina and I was gonna fly, but I couldn't because of the hurricane. So I had to drive all the way to Kentucky to do that. So you're lucky you didn't have to go anywhere. This is a long drive.

Yeah. Did they give you mileage? Fred? Yeah, they gave me mileage. What do you think this was an under the table job or something?

Come on, Loretta and I are professionals. We were We had union contracts, all right, So listen, I want I want to know a little bit because you know, you guys had a rather poignant love scene. Yes, the process shot on the on on the deck. Now what kind of preparation did you have to do for that? Well?

I don't know, Bernie, and I care to discuss that with you. I mean, I'll let me consult Bernie. What do you say, yes, dear, ask me anything. Well, what do you think do you think we should share our preparation, you know, behind the scenes and working up to this wonderful love scene that we did. Oh that won't it be a hot book?

Yeah? Well, come on, give us a little taste of it, will we're in. The makeup room practicing. I'm not sure those words are correctivous a little taste of what what you. At.

We're not into Bernie and I are not into sharing, if you don't mind. That was a very private, all right preparation. Yes, dear, I gotta tell you this. Before, before I met you, I felt I thought this is what acting is. And then I met you and I said, now I know what acting is because you are so beyond magnificence.

So when I was I need a drink. Okay, when was the first time that you guys met? Was it on the I want to. Hold the phone for a second. I'm busy of being overwhelmed.

Okay, But you have to also appreciate the source from which this comes. This is a man who knows the work. That's the highest compliment you pay a colleague. They know where the work is because it is work, and they know how, they know the beats, and so to work with them, you just get better, you grow. So it's always Mulligan.

For example, I've been gifted. I have worked with these wonderful people. So Bernie is one of those people. So when Bernie gives you a compliment, it's beyond being thrilled with a compliment, is beyond getting a standing ovation from strangers who enjoyed your performance. But on one you're looking into this man's eyes and you're saying words that are coming from a different place, and he's answering those words with.

His and and so it's it's a very special sharing and moments that your treasure and Bernie will always be that love of my life. And from that from that episode, to see. You put that in writing. Yeah, why recorded it for Christ's sake? Isn't that?

I think recorded well as his cast mates. We thank you for training him. Yes, And a lot of people don't know that when we were first doing Love Boat at twentieth Century Fox, you guys were just a few sound stages away. Yeah, they were next door, weren't they next door to us? Yeah?

You were right around the corner, right right. But but I don't uh, I don't remember your ever coming over. To visit, did you not? Like I did? I did that doesn't like you?

You were a little snippet. That's right. Nobody cared that I was there. But I loved it. I loved it.

Yeah, we always got the impression that Mash was a very close set, and they did not appreciate having visitors, even if you know we were fellow players. Although Gary Berghoff, I don't know who gave you that impression. It was probably a Fox employee. It wasn't anybody on the show. Because we loved you know, most of us were stage trained.

We loved an audience, and uh fortunately our crew loved the show. They loved being there, and they were a great audience for us. Dominic Palmer, who was our cameraman for many seasons, he would sometimes ruin the shot because he was laughing and he was moving pooping the camera. I said, dumb, come on. You know we're not going to shoot it again.

Stop laughing. But I don't think we ever turned away guests. I mean, we shouldn't have mobs, but anybody who called and said can I come, I'm sure it was not a problem. I would sneak over on my lunch hour. You guys were like a family.

Yeah. Yeah, like Harry Morgan. When Mac was leaving, my heart was broken. I adored a man, McLean Stevenson. We're talking about McClain, and when he told me he was leaving, I was like, how can you do that to me?

I was like, very personal, and he said, Lorette, I know I'll never be in anything that's good again. I said, so, you know, really still what he said. But I must go out there and try on my own. Number one, to be on my own, I said, Mac, you just don't see the forest here. You are number one.

Mac out of the Gate got a golden globe. But the the you know, opening season, he was he was really the head in that show until he left. He was really the one controlling the character, was making us laugh and cry. And but he must have not believed it himself, Loretta, I mean, oh, he left. Just yeah, he really wanted to be number one.

What he didn't realize, Bless his heart. Max's gift was reacting, not acting. Reacting and reacting to those bizarre characters that we were was what he was so funny, reacting to us. He needed that because it fed him and that was his That was his gift. So when they put him in things that did not reflect that, he wasn't making it.

But Nash was a perfect, perfect thing for him. But he he just didn't see it. Yeah, he didn't recognize it. And that's sometimes the problem with actors. They don't realize what they're in at that time.

But reacting is just as important as acting. As a matter of fact, that's really what acting is. I learned all of mine from Bernie Coppel because you. Know, you never paid me for it, and I never will when we go back with somebody else. In that same episode, the scenes between Gavin and Jill were absolutely had hardbrending.

Uh huh, and Jill was all a nine years old. I mean, this is you want to you want to see perfect acting, you watch a kid. And Jill was, no, no, that's some vulgar Jill, I know. It is vulgar. And I still am are still nine no, no, at almost you know several decades.

How lucky for you to be surrounded by people who appreciated your young genius. You know, well, how lucky for me to be surrounded by genius because well, when when I was a little kid, uh, and I I. I was born to do what I do. I know that, yeah, I this is this is who I am what I do. So when I was a.

Little kid, I was in dance class, for example, and I'm very young. I don't know how old I was. Believe it or not younger than nine. And they stood us up one day, one at a time. Do a little something.

Now, this little snippet. I a child, I mean really a big sang manyana. Remember manyana manyana manya. They're gonna enough for me. Okay.

So with the Spanish accent and everything, little hips going and everything, this little girl's manyana. This little kid is doing this and people from the class are going crazy, laughing and enjoying it. My mother is humiliated. He doesn't know where to hide. And on the way home, oh my god, she punished me.

How could you do that? She's squeezing my hand. Don't you ever do that? So she crushed what was really the joy of performing at that age doing, you know, having fun. And it took me a while to get back on that.

The very next week that the instructor wanted me to do it again, and I couldn't. I could do a version of it, but they saw that my mother had stopped it. So when I say, how lucky you were to be. Recognized at that age that you had this gift. And it is a gift.

Come on, let's face it. No matter how long and hard you study, you begin with the germ of a gift. It is. It's what you've essentially told us is that you did not grow up in a show business family. Ohy, they they, Oh don't you dare you're gonna be a block?

No? Well no, but I asked that because none of us did. No, and and so I mean that's something that we all share. I was I was actively told I had no talent, so that I should No, I'm serious, Lorette. I was told that by my members of my immediate family, actively told yeah, no, no.

But but I think, now tell me if I'm wrong. But I think sometimes that's all the motivation you need to say. Oh yeah, I'm going to show you motivating. This James Drury rather rather handsome guy, and I loved him. Oh crush Bill, Oh.

Lass mates at NYU. So I got drafted into the Navy and I enjoyed that, had a lot of fun. They made me a librarian. Jim says, Burnt, come on out to California. I got an agent for you, and I'm saying, an asient that's like a magic carpet thing.

So I go to see his agent and the first thing that happens is he takes a look at my bio and he says, then he looks at me, gives me a real hard look, and he says, you're not handsome enough to be a leading man. You're not ugly enough to be a heavy. And I was dismissed, and I said right away, I better do something else. So I became a character. Get a backup plan.

Yeah, that was my backup plan. Well, ted was told that he was supposed to be an auto mechanic, right, yeah. And what school? Yeah, high school, nineteen sixties. They said they wouldn't give me drama classes.

I had to go in and bake for drama classes. They wouldn't give it to me because they wanted me to take auto shop and that wasn't what I Luckily, I got locked into a theater by accident and watched a rehearsal and that was it. I was done. And Teddy Bear, that was no accident that you got locked in. And everything happens for a reason.

So that was for you. But that dance, that dance class that you had, Loretta, was that was that when you finally said this is what I'm gonna do, this is gonna be my life. No, that was a long time before I when when well as a kid lights up lights out in the house, I would go under the covers with a lamp and read a book, well not too loud, but you know. And I would do all the characters, men, women, children, at whatever. And when I got to my first acting class, I realized I had been rehearsing all my life.

There you go, you know, But but no, it's it's all I ever. Wanted to do. And my mom, who was so against my career, loved film. It was our big connection. As we got both got older and more mature.

But my mom would make me by the hand and we would go to a double feature. It's not a happy marriage, okay. And so that was escape escapism for her and probably every other housewife in the thirties and forties. And what city did you grow up in? What?

What? What? New Jersey? New Jersey? Okay?

So would go to the Central of the Montauk or the Palace. So I name all those theaters because would go in see a double feature. That's how long ago it was. With everything the cartoon, the news reel, the coming attractions. Come out, Chinese food and with rice pudding, no raisins, please go, would go to another theater for another two features.

We would see four movies a day, and I mean we wouldn't just sit there. I mean we were into those movies. And so for her to not realize how bonding, the bonding that was going on. But any way, do you think Loretta, that maybe it was because I know for my mom she did not want me to be in this business at all, and she wouldn't go with me to interview. She'd say, I'll drive you, but I'm not going in.

And this was in San Francisco. We did you a favor that way that would have your approval right right, right. But my question is she was afraid of the industry, and so that's why she didn't. I wonder do you think that might have been part of that for your mom, her reticence to allow you. Uh, it's very complex.

Some of it was jealousy. That should have been me, not my child, sure, uh, which I kind of found out a little bit from my dad. But but overall, I think, yes, it's the fear that you're striking out on your own in the jungle of New York City. What's gonna happen? The prostitution and they're gonna rape or the guy kill that.

Some of that, not a lot. I think more of it was my mom, not my God so much. But my mom wanted me to get married, live across the street or down a block, and have babies. This was her plan. I finally got a mouthpiece to say, Mom, I'd die for you, I will not live for you.

That is my future. This this is you know. But at that age there's so much you say to your parents without being rude. You know you don't. And I was a very good Catholic girl.

I didn't talk back. I always listened. My brother too, We were good kids. They sent my brother after. Me and he would meet me in New York and try to talk me into coming home.

Oh God, you're doing the thing and the stuff. And the first time he saw me on stage, he came back and he put his arms around me and he said, I understand. See there's always that, There's always that moment, Burt, Bernie. There was not a lot of support for you getting into this business, was there. Well.

My father was in a jewelry business, and he led me to believe it's the only way I could ever make a living was to be a jeweler. As as he was, and I. Said, I don't really like that, And I really liked that. I got some encouragement from of the teachers at at at the n y U n YU exactly. I got into the Verse Choir and the Old City Radio Workshop, which was great, great fun, and then I got into n YU.

Now you're doing radio again. All right, here we go. My would encourage me behind my mother's You see, my mom was really it was twos a piece of work. She wash, that's interesting, Not really, you know, but I mean that makes us all survivors. And to some degree, I think having that barrier makes you try a little harder because you want to prove them wrong, don't you.

No, I don't think that was in my case, but I think but what it was unconsciously it didn't make me stronger because it was more difficult to do what I wanted to do. I was not looking to prove them wrong or prove myself right. I was looking to get on stage and will even my auditions people would say, yeah. I'm never nervous. Why it's the only opportunity you have to get on stage in a Broadway house and sing my heart out and have them pay attention.

But it was more about that than getting the job. It was getting there and doing it. And to this day that serves me well, it's not nerves, it's the excitement of getting out there. When I told Cheetah, she said, oh my god. She says, I'm supposed to be one of the best, and I'm I'm a pack of nerves before I go out.

Some people vomit faked. I mean, they're like, well, I don't. I appreciate that. I understand it, but I'm not acquainted with it. I can't wait, you know, to so I whatever glitch or I don't know what happened with me getting born.

I wanted my own day. I wanted my own time, my own space. And when I struck out, I had zero zip. I mean, I don't know what possessed me to think. I never said I was going to try to be an actor.

I said I was going to be an actor. You didn't even dare tell people what you're what you wanted. Well, one day I had the courage. I built up the courage. Went to Sister albeings like education and Sister Albie, and I said, you know, I don't talk about this easily, but in my heart.

I really want to be an actor. I want to be you know. And she said, I have a niece in the business. Let me talk to her about it and see if I can get you some advice. Wow.

Wow, all right. For the next couple of weeks she avoided me. I mean I was trying to get you know that she would and I'm very sensitive to that. She was like avoiding me, and I thought, all right, it's bad news. And so I finally cornered her, and she what an actress she was.

Oh, yes, I've been looking for you, right. She said. I spoke to my niece and she said the field is overcrowded, so you'd better forget it. Oh god, that was that was her advice. My my feeling is maybe she did some cursory shopping, but I don't think she spoke to her knees.

I just don't didn't believe it. I thought that was came from Herna Schuma, you know, just forget it. Let me let me go back to the show that you and Bernie did together, because I wanted. You know, You've obviously worked with a lot of leading men, different people, and some have been better than others. When do you know, and this is a question for both of you that it's really clicking.

Immediately, I was going to say the same thing, Yeah, it's either there or didn't and then you have to work hard to put it there. But no, we because it looked it looked effort, you know what I'm saying. We just connected. He connected also through the work. You know, we we use Bernie uses himself the way I use myself, and so Bernie and Loretta connected through these characters that they were.

We did the work, You do the work. Everything takes over, am I right? Bernie? Absolutely? You know it's flying without a net.

You don't need you, You've you've got it. You just do it. That's trust too, if you're flying without a net. Loretta. Every good thing that had to happen did happen between us.

Yes, you're shoving me into the laundry cars. That worked perfectly. I mean, you know I wanted to do that for Bernie for two sears. You got to do it. Really had everything, you know, you laughed with us and you but it was pointed to it was touching and oh, people.

Wanted to talk about the episode for a long time with you know, they would always bring it up, and they would want to talk about what happened, because for Doc, it was a lovely revelation. About his character, about who he was, which is what's wonderful when you have good people doing a series. They they used that experience to explore how much they can bring out for everything. So who who thought Doc was going to fall in love that way? Who who you know.

That he was going to actually get to the point where he says, there's stay here, don't go home, married me? Or you know he's been married four times? Because when you got that that severe uniform off, you became a very attractive lady. Your hair was done nice. Night, oh yes, and that beautiful white dress.

You take me slinky boogie you. I said, what's boogie? What is boogie? You go and boogie and slinky too. That's right, Fred.

I was hoping that you'd come back again, yes to two times more because you were so and you are so lovely and I got I got really pissed at you for taking me, putting me into bed, yelling at you. Oh my god. I loved that scene so much. But Bernie, that that was really We've done a season and on about eight shows that was really your first serious love show, wasn't it? Yes?

Yeah, so it's a great place to start. It was the best episode I have. It was it was more than a serious It was for Doc, serious for Doc, but it was an element in his character we hadn't seen yet, and it was so warm and wonderful. It was such for the fans, it is wonderful experience to see one of their favorite characters blossom in a direction that did you know? It's a surprise and it's a wonderful thing.

And I know I had it. I had the opportunity on mash many times to reveal her the different elements that composed this major, this iron major, and I had a fight for it. That doesn't tell us, tell us how did you audition? Did you have to audition? Or what was the deal?

And there was no script. Larry Gilbart bless his heart, he works under pressure, like the day before he gets out of script. You know, no script, And it was a while before even shot the pilot, but they had an idea. I was very lucky. From the time I arrived in Holly Holly Would, I was working almost almost completely for CBS.

I kept doing the CBS and they owned the show at that point. They owned the networks they did. They had gun Smoke, they had Mannus, they had Hawaii five. Oh, they had big hits. They were writing high and they My first job was on Gun Smoke, a brilliant English director with an added have like we want to have lunch.

And he introduced me to Bill Watson. I was going to have a love scene. He said, I cannot bear the American idea that you can go on the set, be introduced and get into a love scene. That's absurd. He said, I wanted you to to get to know each other a little bit before you've even read the script.

And he was like a great director. And so I had the Gun Smoke and then before I was finished, I had a call from Paramount Millie Gussie. Everybody Billy Gussie auditioned me for love Boat and turned me down. That's how I know MILLI tell that she was in retrospect. I see she was right.

She called me in to read for. A Mannix episode and Michael o'hurleahy anybody else? Yes? Yes? Was he like absolutely the best.

I loved this man. Oh a lovely director. He gives you. He would give me images sometimes to work with. I shot Mannix, but I didn't know the gun was empty.

But if I pulled the trigger subconsciously, and subconsciously, I committed a murder. And she was a good person. And I was like trying to find the good in whatever I was playing, the humanity. And so after I killed Mannix and he took the gun away from me, the look of disappointment and horror in a way and walked away from me. And I was leaning against the mantle of a fireplace and Michael comes over.

He said, Now, what I want you to do is go down a staircase, go all the way down. Just keep going down further and further and further and further and further until you lose sight, and we lose sight. You disappear, not physically but your eyes. You're going to go down and you're going to disappear because you don't know how to cope with the fact that. You just killed somebody.

And I don't God, you know, wow. And it was all in the eye, and that's what he wanted to see in my eyes. And as it happened, I started to not cried, but there was a tear that came down down the nose. Okay, how dramatic. I mean, you can't find a cat?

And they ended that was the end card. They'd never done that, they always end on like but it was so right emotional. Yes, speaking of eyes. You know, the episode that you and Bernie did together and Jill did was directed by a guy named Roger d'shoney who did a lot of our shows. But what he kind of pioneered, and I think it may have started on your show because the scenes with Javin, Gavin and Jill were so strong.

The scenes with you and Bernie were so strong that Roger pushed in in close ups, closer than he'd ever done with anybody on the show anyway. You remember this, Bernie, Oh, I mean it was so time well, yes, and Jill and Gavin, I mean their faces were like landscapes. Yes, they absolutely filled the screen. And he did it with Jill and Gavin when they had their moment, and he did it with you and Bernie when you guys had your scenes. And but that was the gift television could give us.

You know, going like that too, and you go inside when you get that close. Well, Bernie and I in that final scene when we're saying goodbye. Where we were really there was tight shots of our heads. I remember that, and Roger really pioneered that. He was the first guy to really come in that close.

I saw the episode again last night, and I dreamt about it all my long. Yeah, I'm still dreaming about it right now. Do you owe me money? I still have that lovely note that you sent me. Will you share what the note says?

Or is it too personal? Uh? It is personal. I'm happy to share it, but okay, and now it was his lovely, humorous, left handed way to say it was stunning. But he ended with to do it again with you would not be a bad thing.

Oh, it's too bad. The show lasted longer than the Soviet Union, so they could have brought you back, you know, after you'd been decommissioned, you know, and you could have worn the white dress again. Yeah, but then then you'd have to be Then you'd have to deal with Putin. Yeah. Well, I I really kind of enjoyed her in the beginning that my hair pulled back and everything.

Lauren. Uh, she were walking by the pool and the flowers or you know, candles, and I'm looking looking at this absurdity right in her in her eyes and I said to her, candles in the pool, that's your idea, right, Yes, it was. So much fun. What is this garbage? You know?

You know, I have to say that it was such a striking moment when you go from this very austere commandant to this soft. Boogie boogie, slinky good woman and boogie. I mean it was it was just this. Reacting again to Bernie. You can't do that.

You can in your head plan that this is what's going to be happening, but if you don't have a Bernie to be happening with, it's not going to be as you know. It's that simple. I know because for example, I did Same Time Next Year with several different partners. I did Love Letters with several different partners, and you know, when you have it, you know what you've got. You know.

Ted Bessel was an amazing George in the Same Time Next Year. Amazing Gene Sachs used to look at me and rehearsal. I had say he was born to play this character. He was George. And one night early.

On we came off the stage and looked at each other as though we had been on another planet. I can't describe it any other way, which is like. Whoof, whoof woof. We never discussed it, but we just had this thing, this explosion of reality in the fiction anyway. But I had that every moment with Bernie, and of course when you have it in front of the camera is really exciting because you're clicking in, you know.

But I got to tell you my favorite line in that episode actually was not with Bernie. It's when you come to Julie McCoy's door and you say, I want to be slinky. Remember that, because now it's going to go boogie. Yeah, I already asked what is boogie? Yeah, I have to find out what is slinky?

But then after that we saw you in the white dress and it was game over for everybody. Yeah. I also wore a kind of nifty black number. But it was fun too for many reasons getting her out of that tight officer outfit, but also from the actor point of view, getting out of the fatigues. That was always great.

Fun for me to have that we who wore the green. After a while, everything is green. I would watch her. My hair looked green, everything was fatigue green. So so to break out in this though she comes in tough, but then melts into this glamour girl doing boogie yeah clinky, you know it was yeah yeah, And.

The white dress was the perfect choice for it because she came in. Is this very as you say, she became a virginal. Though, right, but and yes, this this this angelical. It's almost like you had a halo over you and just it was. I still I mean to this day, I can't remember what I had for breakfast yesterday, but I remember you in that dress, and I remember how I felt when I saw you come on camera and the softness and it was just it's just a beautiful thing to watch.

That's lovely. Thank you. A part of what I remember working on, even subconsciously, when I attacked any role, always to find that core of goodness, because like Anne Frank, I do believe in the goodness of people, that everywhere, all of us we have, humanity has a goodness that I will believe always, no matter what if they're if they're crucifying me, I will hang on to that thought the way this little child did. She's gonna die any second, and she believes it, and so I think it's imperative you have that going into a role going into believing that core is there. So I played a psychotic killer at one point and tried to find not to justify the killingness she killed people, but to find that core in her that made her do that what sickness?

What you know, So that by the end when she was captured and they were taking a wig off hers, you're just trying to kill somebody and she it was so you felt sorry for her. You felt sorry that she had that disease or whatever. And that's what I kind of look at what. I went on tour with Bill Holden for Soob the film that we did, and okay, Bill, one day wo tour, it was a press tour. We were sitting at a table Mulligan and Bill Holden and myself and Bill, who never fancied himself by the way an actor, he was, you know, he doing a job, but he was a fabulous natural actor.

But when he started talking about what he was doing, he may not realize it, but he knew the work. And he said, I always start out finding out what was good about the character, because if you look at my resume, I play Heels, all the guys that I play look at them, and you start to realize he's absolutely right, Son said Boulevard. The guy's a heel, he's a tar. But he when he winds up, you see the goodness in him. He falls in love with the innocent girl.

He wants to leave this woman who's being deceived. You know she's but by the studio. But you know, and so and and he he, he went through all of all of his why why he was an absolute heel. He was a coward, he was a pretended and he ends up trying to shoot the mad guy who's caused this chaos, you know, you he says and dies. And he was talking about that, and I thought, God, Mulligan and I were looking at you like somebody taking this down on tape or something.

Well, and he was talking about growing from that core and and showing nobody is a total heel. This is who he really was, that that, you know. And so I became aware of that in my work as well, looking for uh. You had to you had to look for the good in Hula Han when I began, because they were writing her like she was was Eileen Brennan, who adored but she played a character in Benjamin for example. It's not what Hula Han was, nor was Benjamin.

What we did in the series, you know. So, but but I mean, obviously, and I think we probably went through the same thing you did, although perhaps quite as deeply. But you know, if you're if you're good in your character when you start out, eventually you can educate the writers to write for the character you want to play. And I think all of us got to that that point. Maybe it took us a little longer than it took you, because I don't think we were actor focused as you were.

But the fact of the matter is, if you stay on a show for a long time and it's a success, eventually, if you're good enough the act, you will convince and teach the writers to write the way you want to play the part. Wasn't the writers so much the problem. It was the producers, not Gelbart, but it was they. They came off of Hogan's heroes at John Witmain movies, and you know, and this this was not what we saw in what we were doing. We were playing real people at the front in Korea, met especially the women, the women in Korea that I commanded volunteered to be there, the coldest country on the planet, at the hottest country on the planet.

The things that killed us in Korea was number one frostbite, number two bite. And then the war. Do these women volunteered? They were not drafted. I'm not putting the knock on the guys who were drafted.

All I'm saying is these women just did it, and you you can't. I can't play a part like Shultzi. You know in in Hogan's I can't. I I took her very seriously, and when I began, I said to Gelbart, you have to know in advance. My aim will be the bet to be the best goddamn head nurse in Korea.

That will be my goal. Yes, they're only concerned is it going to be funny as it? Trust me, I'll be funny. If I'm dying, I can be funny. Just give me the opportunity to.

Are you hearing this? Guys? They had problems with their producers too. What a shock, What a shock. I'm stunned to hear this.

What you didn't the producers didn't understand. I'm stunned that Alan Alders said to me, you've got a tough hoe here because you and uh and Larry Larry Linnville are so funny and great together. They're they're gonna have the writers now he's talking about they don't want to. Let go of those laughs. They're company here there, you guys are and so they're not gonna be easy to convince.

And I would come back from Pa Torars people, fans, what are you doing with that character? Where are this mark? They recognized before the writers that this is not a possible for Margaret. He's married, there's no future. He's an imbecile.

Why is she going with this joke of the army that everybody's putting him down? It he's not a good surgeon, Ah, very important. She admired it. She may have been angry with the surgeons. She admired what they were doing.

Frank was losing patience. I mean he was being criticized for his lack of expertise. What is she doing with this guy? Okay? Number one, you have her loneliness.

Ah, so, but then you don't write these spectacular love scenes and you have to see through why she's there? Oh, Rank, you know what? Which you have to see the frustration and the end of Towards the end of the second or third season, well it was seventy six probably. I was in New York doing a play and the boys called me and said, let's have a conference. We're on hiatus.

We want to hear what your thoughts are for the next season for Margaret. And I took them through what I Yeah. I did. This was major, breakthrough, major, and I, well, here here's what I think. Number one, send her to Tokyo on R and R.

Let her meet a guy who outranks Frank. Don't make him a doctor, make him a lieutenant colonel and give him I mean, make him a little tall, dark and handsome. Let's see something that she would go for and get engaged. Can you imagine Lynnville when I come back to the four seven seventh with a ring and and we know, I said, he'll tear off the doors of the tent. And that's exactly what he did, by the way, because as a joke we were talking about and and they were they were loving it.

They thought it was a good idea. Now, Gene Reynolds says to me, well, sweetness, her sweetness, He said, what what happens now? What happens next? I said, she gets married? No, oh, gee, that's so permanent, I said, Gene, you're divorced.

How are you gonna give you what. Is permanent of you? I said, she can just him being disloyal. And then she's back in town realizing she doesn't need these goons to complete her life. She is so she's blossoming through these these this pain and hardship.

She also through this, Alan writes a script. She has a. Meeting of the Bodies and the Mind under Fire with Alan aldas Karen, and that layers their relationship in a very bountiful way. I love that episode so much. I remember that episode.

I love it very vividly. Yes, a really good friendship and and and it's still gonna be funny. If we we broke the rules, we can still be funny and do serious stuff. We can have you laughing, but we'll have you crying and laughing at yourselves. And so we you know, I think that was the greatness if if you will, the mash and the writers they had us run the amates.

You know, wasn't just the one thing. Also, my character broke a barrier in terms of growth. Most of the characters on television in like in my category, let's say, stayed the same for as. Long as they're on. They never grew, They never changed.

That makes it unreal. We change every five minutes. When I leave, I'm going to be changed by the time I get Oh, we change, we grow, and we have to allow the character that we're doing to do that or we're going to lose our audience. I wanted to take a moment, and you just absolutely illustrated what I was going to say, was that coming from Hogan's Heroes writing or from John Wayne films, the way they wrote women then, and what you did with your character the major was I think so groundbreaking because it was one of the very first characters that was not just t and A. It was not just a pretty face.

It was so much more, and it was so rich and so interesting and so conflicted and yet so wonderful to watch. You know, you hated her arrogance, but god, you just loved her conviction and all of those things made you so interesting to watch. On our show, it was a different experience, and I think that I will pull my colleagues on this, but I don't think we got to even get close to that kind of experience until we started to write episodes ourselves. I mean, Bernie and I wrote an episode for Ted the first season, I wrote one for Bernie. It was an effort at survival because we were probably programmed to stay exactly the same, which is what you were talking about with women.

Well, we were comic foils for the most part, Ted, Bernie and me, and unless we figured out a way to grow, that wasn't going to happen. Once they found the joke, they were going to hit that joke every week every time that they did not pay attention to the evolution. But thank goodness, the show ran for a long time and it had to evolve. Thirteen years. We outlasted them, Loretta, We survived.

Your episodes were peppered enough with really good people. Yes, well you make us look good. I mean, it's when we get somebody like you on the show. It obviously it upgrades our status because. We know what it does is bring out the best in all of us.

We need each other to be as good as we can be. You know, you know we're all saying our feeling at least the same thing. We we need each other. That they call mash this great family. But yet a group of actors together who are are doing that kind of work, they are a family.

They are a creative, wonderful, juicy family. But I think loving what we do is crucial. It's the most absolutely absolutely, it's so much fun. It feels good. Yes, and we're so happy you got to share our family because we did become a family much like your cast and mash.

So the fact that you came over to where we'd like to play and you played with us is absolutely one. And you're playing with us now. And come on, we can't thank you enough for doing this show. You know, we're trying to get this off. The ground from the time my friend called me.

And you know, when you said we want to have Bernie, we took a vote and he still won. But you know, yeah, I've got I'm gonna usually take it. Yeah. But that episode that you guys did is one of the classics. It is a classic.

It is a classic. It is a classic. You guys compose a classic. What is the definition of a classic? It lasts forever.

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