Episode 42: Homicide + The Delegate

Weird way. Welcome to the Life and Times with Captain Bartie Miller. I'm your host, Mike White. Joining me, of course, is the rookie mister Christashue. I promise everyone this is not a wig.

All the way down from internal affairs, mister Auto Bruno. Oh wow, are you guys that upset with me? Because I missed the last season that I've gotten demoted to internal affairs with Scanlon? No Eternal Affairs are coming down to crack some skulls. Tell us what we're doing wrong here.

Plus I've been on the take this entire time, so, oh my god. I never would have thought it was you, Mike. I always would have thought it was your Palfredo there. On this podcast we talk about Barney Miller. And on this episode we are cracking into the seventh season.

What does this have in store for us? Who bought this wig? What the hell's going on with the twelfth Precinct. We're talking about a two parter that starts off the seventh season, Homicide Part one and Part two, which aired October thirtieth, nineteen eighty and November sixth, nineteen eighty and The Delegate, which aired November thirteenth, nineteen eighty homicide. We have a very special episode of Barney Miller, but we don't really realize that it's a very special episode until the second part.

First part pretty light and fluffy. Even though these guys are being told that they have to switch, we are we are specializing. Now every single precinct is going to be specializing in a different crime, and the old one too, is going to be the homicide department, homicide, life on the streets. Who do you want to jump in first? Because I'm gonna like Christian Auto Auto is just shaking his fucking head.

I'm you know what, Auto, as you are, August, you can go first, because I know you have feelings because I've read your book. Well, there you go. Yes, I do have feelings that I make very clear in the book. This scene season opening two, for I say in the book, and I still feel that way. It was a severe miscalculation in my opinion on the part of the writers.

It amazed me. Then it amazed me while I was doing the research and talking to some of these guys, and it continues to amaze me that they that, in my opinion, they so misread the Barney Miller audience. I have always said that one of the things I loved most about Barney Miller was that it tackled serious subject matter while always making the show funny. There are two other decidedly unfunny episodes in the series. One, of course, is Wojo's Girl, the second part two of Wojo's Girl, which really wasn't technically a part two.

It was an hour show when it came on the air, originally in prime time. And then there's a one that will I think is still Bill coming up. I don't know if it's this season or next season, with a NAZII. You know, Nazi is never good, so that's a different one. But those two were not funny.

What about the rape episode Otto, I did not see that coming. Whatever expects Nazis to be funny? Really well, the rape episode I always thought was more interesting from a cultural aspect because of the fact that, of course, at the time the rape episode was aired, which I think was seventy seven, I wanted to say, our society didn't consider that a woman could be raped by her husband. Right now, obviously we feel differently nowadays, and I agree with that, but I'm just saying at the time it was, it was. It was handled differently because all of society looked at it differently, so it was a different thing this this homicide episode.

First of all, I did rewatch it again today. Quite painful to have to do that. It really it almost never worked in almost any of the any part of the episode. It feels you should pardon the pun, but the whole episode just feels kind of dead. It just kind of lays there, you know what I mean.

And I'm talking about the episode meaning the two together as one, not you know, not part one or part two. When I talked to Tony Sheen, and I think I wrote this in the book, but I'm not positive. When I talked to Tony Sheen, who at that point was the showrunner, because this is one of the seasons that Danny Arnold was not at the Helm. He had walked away for a couple of years due to his to his health situation. Tony Sheen was a showrunner.

And when I talked to Tony and I was asking him about this, and he basically responded like I was not the first person to have ever told him how angry this episode made me, or this storyline made me, And he said, yeah, we were kind of surprised. We thought people would would. I don't know if he said appreciate or find funny the irony of the situation. Can I can I give the spoiler alert? Can I tell him?

Oh? Yeah, what the problem is that everybody has seen this episode before that? Yeah, And of course the problem is that mister Coderman, who is a long standing character we have, he has recurred, as I say in the book, whether it was this gentleman himself, which I'm blanking on the actor's name now Jack Jack, so Mack, thank you. We used to do a lot of commercials as well. But whether it was Jack Somac as Codderman, or even like Lou Jacobi in the first season who runs the deli, it's not Coderman.

But basically it is the same character that runs throughout the entire series. So Mac, I think played the care aracter maybe six or seven times. I'll know what it was. But we came, just like the twelfth precinct, we came to know mister Carderman as a friend. And when when she had said that to me about oh well, we were always surprised how people took that, And I'm like, well, what's there to be surprised?

About Coderman was a friend. No, he said, I know what it was. He said, well, no, one seemed upset by the barber, the character that Jack Dadson plays who kills his barber. And I said to Tony, I'm like, yeah, because we don't know him, we don't care about him. And it's not that I don't care about his barber, but I didn't know his barber either.

Yeah, and we never see the barber, and there's no personal connection to the barber. It is. See. This episode's very odd well for a lot of reasons, but one of them is it feels like we, you know, because we talk a lot about the actors that show up on the show consistently, and Jack Dodson feels like he was just on. I think it was within the last I think our last episode, Chris, we actually talked about Jack Dotson.

So here he is again. In this time he's playing a character that I feel as much more close to his personality, let's say, as he can play creepy, really really well. Actually, I take it back. It was episode sixteen of the sixth season. He was also way back in episode or season two, episode ten.

But yeah, it just seemed like it feels like we just saw this guy the next time that we taught Chris there's going to be another person that is coming back who we just saw in the last episode, and feels like there's even more actors, like we just saw this person. So it feels like they're recycling them very close together right now. This is this is without a doubt, this might be worse than Wojo's Girls. I mean no, no, no, no, not for me, not for me. I mean it's it misses the mark with what it's going for really wide like it misses.

It's like it this is wide right real hard. I don't I don't know who thought it was a good idea to be Like, on this very special episode of Barney Miller, one of the characters that has been introduced five other times gets shot in the head point like it's just like a holy fuck show, what are what are you doing? Why? Like and it's it's never made clear why other than to like to really just like make Barney and the rest of the precinct feel terrible, which they should, but like the guy doesn't have to be murdered execution style, point blank, like it's just it that's like fuck, that's excessive, don't you think, guys like and you know what, it's really excessive in a way that this show is, this show that normally shows restraint, even though it has at one point offered up the idea that that he is an alien is a thing that this show has offered up in in genuine earnestness, and this is something that could have worked.

And it misses the mark just and misses the mark in a way that the show does not miss the mark outside of Wojo's Girl, which felt as like as poorly designed as this one did in a different way, but just still as poorly desired. You guys are so upset about the storyline. I'm still stuck on the hair. I'm still thinking about Wojo's big I told that to you last baths should wait for the hair man. Oh everybody, I mean, Hari's hair has gotten bigger, Dietrix is curlier, Barney's is longer.

I think you said, the only person who's not changed his Levitt and I'm I'm for that, you know, please don't change these hairstyles, especially this weird wig that Wojo's wearing. Well well, of course Max Gale never wanted to wear that, and again, it was Tony I think it was. I think it was Tony Sheen or Jeff Stein, but I think it was Tony Sheen who told me that at one point Max Gale had said to him, why don't we do a storyline where we discover that Wojo's been wearing a piece, you know, a hair piece, and Tony said, well, no, Max, because Wojo doesn't wear a hair piece. Max Gale wears a hair piece, but Wodo doesn't. But of course, of course, as Chris is so subtly pointed out, it's so obvious now that you know, you certainly could get away that storyline because it doesn't look genuine at all, unfortunately, and of course Max, in an interesting twist of how these things work.

Max, if you've seen other work that he's done, is in no way vain about his baldness. He doesn't care about that, and the least in fact, he wanted the hair piece off because he didn't want to work with the hair piece. But basically I think it was George Spiro Doobie or dB, the guy who was the lighting guy, said, you know, they would get too much of a glare from his foreheads, so they wanted him to you know, it was easier for him to wear a hair piece. It mad It made the lighting a little easier. But yeah, it is.

It's pretty. It's pretty obvious. It's not a but again, I'm pretty obvious. You say, I've never really seen a hair piece that I didn't know was a hair I mean, I guess if I didn't know it, then it must have been good. But most hair pieces that I've ever seen in my whole life were pretty obvious.

Otto, you're up in the Northeast. You know about Maury's wigs, don't you? Maury's wigs. They don't come off Maury Amsterdam's wigs. It's a good fellow's reference.

No, I don't. I don't like them sellers. Oh I'm not excited the line here. Yeah I don't. But now and on another episode of Barney Miller, Uh, this is I don't.

I I just I I'm not surprised to learn that they're surprised that people didn't like this episode because I feel like this it was done in artist is you know what I mean? Like, I don't think that they were trying to get a rise out of anybody. It's just it feels like a really weird choice for a show that is normally a little bit lighter than Hey, one of the characters that you just saw, who you've seen plenty of times, got murdered in Cold Wood. Whoa also while talking about a Torso murderer at the same time, like, where is the light fun in this episode? Oh it really ain't Eddy.

Well, that was the thing I was thinking about. You know, we've talked on this show so many times. In Auto you've really pointed out in the book that Arnie is this negotiator, and so many people leave the precinct without ever really serving any time or really getting arrested, charges or dropped. Understandings are made. You can't do that in this episode because when when you've got the woman who's like, oh, yeah, I hired this guy to kill my husband, and the husband comes in, you've got all this you know, drama between them and I love this guy.

I think he's the guy from Again. I think we just saw him. He's the guy from the Blues Brothers. They smell bad, you know, the guy in the restaurant shaped Paul. And you can't just say, well, you understand each other.

Now, you're not going to have your husband murdered. You are free to go. You can't do that this episode. You can't say that to Howard from Andy Griffith. Hey, it's all a big misunderstanding.

Your hair looks fine, You're free to got nothing. You cannot let these people go. The only thing that is a carryover from the pre homicide days in this episode is the whole conflict between mister Cadman and his neighbor, is the shop owner next door, this whole air versus jew thing. And I'm so glad we're past that now and that there's peace in the Middle East. I mean, thank you Jared Kushner for solving all that.

So that was good. You know, I had forgotten that part. And then I'm watching it today, I'm like, holy hell, is that uncomfortable? Oh yeah, like right and hitting the nail right on the head. I was christ I was laughing so hard when they talk about the skirmish that they had and I think it's Hara said, and then the six minute war ensued.

Yes, I lost my shit, and I was just like, would people understand that reference today? And also I forgot how many hostage references there were in this episode as well. There's one in each Part one and part two, they make reference to the hostage situation because that was going on. It was in November seventy nine, all the way up to January eighty one, so that hostages had been taken like for a full year at this point, almost a yeah, yeah, exactly. Wow it when I when I yeah, when they started going back and forth and he calls him in, oh god, yeah, says he's an Arab.

We didn't introduce him as a Jew. It's like, oh no, I literally thought to myself. I was like, no, please don't go there, Like for all of the things that the show has to do right now, please don't go there. And when it did, I was like, oh god, he said expansionist. Oh God, oh God.

And it's just like yeah, any other time, it probably wouldn't have been a thing at all, Like we would have just been I don't even think we would have said anything about it, Like really, like, think about another time we do this show. We wouldn't have said anything, would be like, eh, that's a weird joke. Would anybody get you would probably have said like would anybody give gotten this? Like in twenty twenty three, and now it's like, is there any way we get out from underneath it. Like since there's never really been peace in the Middle East in our lifetimes, I think we certainly would have mentioned it the sixth Day War versus six minute Wars, And for me is more a fact that it's like nobody knows history anymore.

That's how I think of it. But I mean, I did think their whole exchange in the cell with the Manassa Red Yes Lynn Red Lynn, Yeah, that whole Zionist content, and the whole thing with house calls and Parnell Roberts and all that Nanza. I thought that was actually kind of funny. Yeah, oh yeah, that exchange. And I thought Alan Alan Ann McCleary's at her name, the woman that plays the woman who wanted to kill her husband, Like normally I could find her and her delivery and all that stuff funny, But it's just for the whole For some reason, this this whole there's like such a pall over this whole episode that it just doesn't pop and it doesn't work.

Even though some of that stuff was funny, but it didn't work within the context of the show. The episode is very brown, like for whatever reason, like all of it is very brown, and like the color brown ends up informing the toad of the episode. It's it's unlike, and you know what we haven't even mentioned to yet, Like in what fucking universe is the character that James Gregory is playing. This is like a weird luger on top like the strangest things. He's like, hey, yeah, like that's not a thing, like that's this is like this again, like who who's writing these characters?

Because all of a sudden, it's everybody is just going against type and they're just like, we're gonna do something new and fun with it. And it's like, you know, you can do things new and different, but this, this might be a step too far. And also I was gonna mention this here. The thing with Harris and Tricia O'Neill is really not great. No, why is that?

I thought you'd appreciate that. Why is it not great? It's kind of predatory for a while, like I don't know, like it kind of is. I mean, like they kind of retrieve it back at the end, but like it's weird because like I'm saying, it's predatory because Harris has never been characterized that way before, even when they did it with Dietrich, and they kind of did it with Dietrich at one point, and it seemed like, again like it's more of just like a current read on it, less like a past read. It seemed kind of weird when it was.

I think it was with Wasn't she like a witness or something? And he was like, oh, I mean you know what I mean, Like it's just it's just he was sitting on her like she was a nun, right, and so this was just it was a different lady that he was really Yeah, yeah, you're right, there was some predatory stuff. I mean, I really appreciated seeing this actress. I loved trying and she's in one of my favorite episodes of Star Trek. She's Captain Rachel Garrett of Enterprise.

See. I think we've talked about her maybe on another podcast that we've done, But yeah, I liked her. I liked her character. I liked her whole artistic crime scene photos and all that, like, oh, you can keep the cute one. And then yeah, Harris like dropping that he's a published author and all this stuff.

But when he just keeps going after I can see what you're talking about, Chris. It's just like just chill, dude like that. I mean, it's not a matter of it not being funny, it's just like you've run the joke into the ground and now you're just making a character look like he's a fucking idiot and he's not. Like, for most of the time, Harris is the smartest guy in the precinct other than Barney, at least in terms of being self aware, because he's the only black man in the precinct, and normally he's much more self aware than he seems to be. I mean, again, to your point, Otto, like, this episode is very weird because it feels like none of the characters are operating based off of the last six seasons.

They're operating off of someone who maybe watched the show and is writing for the show now, as opposed to someone who's written for the show a lot and understands how to get the most out of these actors in their like sixth season in you know, seventh season characters. Yeah, I know, there was one reference in this that I didn't get. Levitt is actually it's in part two, but Levitt is bringing in the man that was hired to assassinate Ben Piazza, David Chulton. Yeah, he says something to the assassin, like he calls him mister Sykes or Richard Jinkle, and I'm like, what, oh what I was heard? Sorry, mister Sykes is a character name Richel Jinkle.

It sounded like he called him and I was like, I was like, is this like a murderer from nineteen eighty Now I'm trying to think is that the psych Wait a minute, was Psyke's the character's actual name. I think Sykes was the character's name. Yeah, Alan Fund is what he said. Well, Alan Fund, Sorry, Alan Fund. They there's the guy who's locked in the trunk and I'm not even sure if that's this episode, is it?

Yeah, and he says he says that people, Okay, it must be beginning of part two, because beginning of part one's the old lady that's passing bad checks and that never comes back again, which is odd like usually if they introduced something in the first part, they'd bring it back later. But yeah, there was the guy who was locked in his own trunk. I want to say, Chris that that was the next episode of the Delegate episode, but I could be wrong, But yeah, he is talking about how he was locked in there for like four fucking days. He smells like absolute guard and he says that people were saying that it was Alan that was in the trunk, so that was a that was right. But yeah, when Levitt is bringing in the assassin guy, yeah, Vincent Psychs is the character's name, Michael Lame is the actors's name.

He called him Richard Richard Jenkle, and I'm like, what is that? So sorry just to throw that only thing. I think it was Richard Jacoll who was an actor, but right, yeah, I was trying to look him up and I was like, this doesn't any sense. Sorry I didn't I'm I'm embarrassed to say I didn't even catch it. So I don't know that one.

I don't know that one. I don't know about. But I tried to place these jokes if I can, because it's just, you know, sometimes it's like, what the hell was that joke about? Right? You know?

The other the other big problem I had with this two parter, and and Chris said something about out you know, this very special episode and those of us who you know, lived through that time, remember those very special episodes, which were almost always episodes that I fucking hated okay, because again, I'm a guy who if you're going to sell me comedy, I want comedy. I don't want a civics lesson. I don't want an ethics lesson. I don't want a morals lesson. I don't want anything that's just me.

But what's interesting, and Chris alluded to this at the very beginning, is that they didn't sell this like that. Okay, so it wasn't sold to us like that. So that's number one. We're really kind of blindsided once we get in there. Oh yeah, yeah, I mean, as we've been saying, you know, those first six seasons, we were not prepared for anything like this.

Chris, I mean, Chris makes the great point that to add insult to injury, then they described to us how mister Codderman was murdered, and that is literally like a kick in the knots. I mean, that's ten times worse. And again they're trying to do too much in too short a time, because of course, the other problem is, you know, Harris comes in trying to hide his depression or disgust or whatever that first time, and he's having a Danish, you know, but then he has one bite and then all of a sudden, he's totally depressed and throws it out like in a matter of you know, a snap of a finger in seconds. And of course the biggest problem with all of this is after they put us through this howl in part two we find out mister Cadderman has been killed.

That scene ends. We come back for what's essentially the epilogue, and they're no longer homicide. Nothing else is said, nothing is said. They don't say how they go back to doing what they were doing, Why they went back to doing what they were doing. We will never hear mister Codderman mentioned ever again.

It's it's just it's not good. It's not good. No, but the name armand Tamsarian comes to mind. If any of you are familiar with the the the pop culture phenomenon that is The Simpsons. The episode The Principal and the Pauper is often seen as the moment where the show jumped the shark because Principal Skinner was revealed to be have not been the real Principal Skinner the whole time, and it was actually a man named Armand Tamsarian, and then by the end of the episode they literally run him out of town on a rail and I believe the judge that the judge that reoccurs to The Simpsons goes, you know, there will never be referred to ever again, and if someone does, they'll be, you know, under penalty of torture.

So it's like yeah, and it's like this is this for me? Is like that level of just like the show jumped the Shark, why, like for no, for no good reason? Like what a terrible Like here's the other thing we haven't mentioned atto this is the first episode of season seven? Like what the fuck were they thinking? Can you imagine watching this for the first time as a new viewer to the show and just being like, what is the This isn't the this is a funny show?

Like is this? Like why are people watching this? What I would ask, why are you watching this show? If you watch these two episodes, it's really a rough watch. I don't know if I say it out right in the book, but I do feel I think I said it in the book, but I'm not positive.

I do think this is ultimately the weakest season is season seven? You do say that because yeah, because they do make a bit of a comeback in season eight. But yes, this this season. Definitely they lose their way. Season six without Danny, I thought they did pretty well, considering, Oh we liked season six, Yeah, considering I think we talk of Dan.

I think we said it may be our favorite season of the show. Yeah so so yeah, well so then there you go that that makes it even all the more interesting because the guys who were running things in season six are running things in season seven. Sold me this episode could give you whiplash. Like after they find out that the mister Coderman is dead and every time we say Cotderman, I'm just like, mister k mister Codderman is dead. Incomes Luger whistling away.

We talked a little bit about Luger, and yeah, how odd this performance is this whole thing of how he wants to be this media liaison, and he starts going off about people in the media and stuff. He comes in whistling, and Bartney's like, do you want to hear a joke, Inspector, And he goes into this whole tirade about how horrible it is working in homicide and just you know, you can't help the people that you actually need to help that need that, and he just really going on it's a great, great performance, and I think thought that was really nice. But I mean, but then I mean to go from the death to the whistling and then to this big tirade, and then it's like I was expecting a capper. I was actually expecting Luger to be like, well, that's not a very funny joke, Barn, you know, like something, But it just felt like this whole thing because yeah, to your point, within a few minutes, it's okay, Alex does agree to go out with Harris.

There's this whole thing like, oh, maybe he doesn't because he's so depressed after Cotderman. But eventually when she offers to make him dinner at home, he perks up and it's like, oh okay. And then yeah, you get that epilogue with here's all the files coming back. Oh hey, there's a shooting spree at a bowling alley. Isn't it nice that we don't have to go over there?

And then the whole wrap up of what do they call him, mister glad glad Man, the trash bag killer, Oh yeah, yeah yeah, and Harris starts talking like he's fucking mind hunter, and then Barney takes the air out of it by saying he left his wallet in one of the garbage bags. Y know, I thought that was a good joke, but again, we just had a character die in a horrific way off screen, granted, but a horrific way. Our hearts are still like in our hands here. Maybe with a commercial break in between, that would have worked a little bit better, but man, oh man, it just with no commercials and going from one to the next, it was off going. I really wanted how Lin did to go see Luger we live in a society.

I mean, it's just that monologue is like, I mean, yeah, we understand why you're upset, but also like, what the fuck show? Like what like genuinely this is so so tonally bizarre for a show that, even in its most serious moments, is not And oh, by the way, kind of already we glossed over. I mean you mentioned like, oh, you can't have murderers just getting away with it. This happens right after Barney goes hey, book this woman like attempted murder and a felony like this woman's going to prison for priye a very long time. And then oh, by the way, we now have a guy get murdered, like within like the two seconds of that, It's like, what in the hell It just it seems really mean spirited and in a way that this show has never been and I don't know why it would be other than they thought that they were being I mean, again to your point OUTO, it sounds like they thought they were being clever and like maybe, yeah, I don't know, like it comes off not clever at all.

Problem is that the murder of Codrman ultimately makes everything else really not work, Like that last bit with alan Ann McClary there and he tells her she's gonna go you know, they're gonna arrest her this net and she looks at her husband and she says, thank you, because we've already met Ben Piazza, who brilliantly, brilliantly shows us why you might want to kill him, you know what I mean, because he's so annoying. So again, all of that stuff might have been funny had we not just been told what we had just been told, right, So it's it's yeah, look, it was a big swing and a big myth. Basically, I mean, two of our favorite shows that we've talked about on here that still keep coming back. Are things like I can't remember the new episode name.

It was the one where Chano had to shoot a guy. That was right. That was a super serious moment, and that was like great television, great drama. That was wonderful. The Harris incident got really serious for a while, and they pulled that mix of comedy and drama off beautifully.

This just felt so clunky, Like to Chris's point, it felt like somebody who they had described those episodes to these writers and they're just like, oh, we can do that. We can mix drama and comedy, no problem. Yeah what a what a wet fart to start the season off with. Yeah, yeah, it was a big swinging, a big miss. It was.

It was, and yeah, I mean it was. It's funny because our wonderful listeners out there don't know. But I was supposed to be on with you guys last you know, for the some episodes in season six, near the end of season six that I specifically wanted to be on because I think it was the episode with Officers the Telly, because you know, I always like to bust Chris's chops about the feeling that I feel looking at it as a kid who was born in the sixties and watched this in its first run, that it was a very progressive show for its time. And I think Chris's generation has difficulty recognizing the progressiveness of old shows because they're not as progressive obviously as we think now. So I always like to give them a hard time with it.

I wasn't able to do that because I screwed up technologically. Was my fault. They couldn't be it. So then you said, well, come and join us at the beginning of season seven, and I see how is I'm like, oh my, yeah, you're welcome. Yeah, I said, I said, it's almost like they knew they were punishing me for missing the other one.

So no, never, we would No one would ever intentionally do something like that because that doesn't make for good podcasting. No now. And Plus, like I said, we thought season six was a high point, and we're just like, okay, great went to seven season seven after bringing to us. You know, we we knew that Nomad directed almost every episode of season six. We had her very familiar writing staff.

We're seeing the same names here for season seven, so I'm like, okay, great, more of the same. Chris is like, think Ano said that seven is bad. I'm like, oh no, it's gonna be fine. It's gonna be fine. I have access to this little book that Otto wrote.

Not a little book, it's a giant book, covers every episode still a child. With that. You can kill mister Cadderman with it. Oh my god, that he was to death with the copy of Auto's book. It's it's what's called a tomem.

But but no, I mean I did mention to Mike like, I was like, I'm pretty sure because I read an Auto's book, like I read ahead, and I was like, I'm pretty sure. Auto said it doesn't like the seventh season. And look, if you know what's funny is this, these two episodes are really not great together. And I know, you know, I said Wojo's Girl, and Mike you were like, oh, I don't know that. I mean, like, it's it's as bad.

I think it's as bad, just in a different way. I don't it's it's not bad in this like Wojo's Girls is fucking boring, Like it's just it's so boring and in meanders like this is just this is like a race to the bottom to see how atypical an episode of Barney Miller, we can really have. But what's funny is I kind of don't mind the next episodisode. I actually think the next episode's yeah, perfectly fine in a way that's like, oh look it's Barty Miller again. It's like back to our originally scheduled programming of Barty Miller, not whatever that bullshit was for those two episodes, because like, I can't imagine, I can't even here's the ultimate question that I have.

Can anyone in this episode right here, the three of us genuinely imagine that show that they had there being successful for anyone in the eighties like good. I mean, like if it had started out that way, sure, but this show pivoting like that there and being that show from here on out would be a complete disaster. Well, it goes against my persona that I've built up on this show already. But I will have to say bravo to you again, Chris. I mean, damn, you're forcing me to give you props tonight, because you bring up a good point when you say that if people had seen this first later in this decade, Danny's last show was a show called Joe Bash Okay, and it was also about a beat cop played by Peter Boyle Boyle thank you, played by Peter Boyle.

And I think it lasted five maybe six episodes, and the reason it didn't go with pretty much everybody said it was way too dark from the get go. It was very very dark, and he was still trying to be funny, but it was too dark for anyone to really enjoy the humor of it. So I think you bring up a good point. And again, though, remember that was Danny's last at bat. Danny, it isn't here for this one.

I mean, at least from what I was told, it didn't sound like Danny had really any input for season six and seven. He pretty much by season seven, I believe he was coming into the office, but he was pretty much letting those guys run it. He was staying away from it. Now. I don't know if if he had any input, but certainly not by I didn't get that impression from anyone I spoke with about it.

So, but yeah, that's a good point, because no, I don't think it would have because I think this is just too dark and the funny doesn't overcome the darkness in this. Yeah, So the so the next episode delegate. Yeah, this is much more of a return to form, right though that opening shot of this episode is very odd, this kind of over the shoulder shot of mister Turner with I want to say, it's Harrison Dietrich on the other side there, and I'm just like, what are we doing? Over the shoulder shots from this is this mysterious window that we discovered Chris in the last season where people are looking out this window that we didn't even know existed, and now it looks like it's a shot through the window of these two guys over mister Turner's shoulder.

I can't remember what Turner thing was. Oh, he was one of the victims of this robber who only come strikes between like who forty five and three o'clock or like that the guy the work release program. And Dietrich gets really pissed off when his his major theory is not proving to be true. Not a lot of not enough Dietrich for me. And actually I didn't think I didn't understand why they why why Harris was taking such pleasure in Dietrich being wrong, because he really sort of wasn't us know because he said, well, maybe he's getting out of work.

Then well, well, he sort of was getting out of work. He was getting out of prison and for an hour and a half to go to a class that he didn't go to, so he wasn't really off. I didn't quite understand that part, you know. Yeah, but you know, first of all, we should note and and hopefully that will still be the case when this episode drops. But we have two people in this episode who play husband and wife who are still with us in their nineties, Bob Dishey and Bonnie Bartlett.

I didn't realize that mister Dishey was still with us. That's fantastic because I love him. Chris. We talked about him way back on Toilight Zone eighty five. Baby definitely going to be talking about him on Colombo because he if he hasn't already shown up, he's going to show up several times.

Yes he does. He will be oh, well look at this, I'm turning sixty in January. He is turning ninety in January. Wow. Yeah, so he is still around, and you know that's interesting.

I got him on the phone at one point for this. I don't even remember how I got his number, and I kind of told him what I was doing, and he seemed a little I don't know if he was out of it or if he just wasn't trusting me or whatever. And he says, well, let me get back to you. And I gave him all the names of people, you know, with whom I had already spoken, like Max Galehill and then blah blah blah, and but I never heard from him again, so I never got his take on anything. But I am like you, I love Bob Dishy.

I think he is so funny and I've always loved this particular yeah, yeah, this whole thing that they find he was a delegate from the Democratic National Convention of nineteen seventy six, right, Barnie says. Barnie says, you know that's been over for a couple of months, and he says, is that all it's been. It's like the lost weekend, but it's the lost four years? You know this? Yeah, that's it's pretty amazing.

And for me, though, the real heart of this episode is having Phil Leeds back. I mean, he's I think this is his sixth appearance out of seven, and I love how Barney is like, do I know you? And I'm like, yeah, you've seen this guy a lot last time, I think he was a photographer, And here he is back again and pretend to be an officer and basically eating Levitt's lunch, which I really like, and Levick gets so mad. Levitt puts on the detective hat for this one to dispearage and and to finally out this mysterious uniform police officer who is just doing a wonderful job. And everybody on the floor likes them a lot, which, of course no one ever gave credit to Levit.

You know, no one ever really warmed up the Levit. But yeah, he first of all, Phil leads is Oh yeah, I mean he's got one of the best faces of all time on television. Uh. And that's why I know that one of the one of the casting directors I can't remember which one it was said to me that she loved to cast him just for his face. I believe that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's tremendous. Yeah, I mean he made I mean one of my favorite mel Brooks movies is History of the World Part Oh yeah, Torquemada, I mean that all of that. I mean, he's so good and it's like just a small little moment, but it makes I don't know, like he's shown up a lot in this show, but this is like this is oddly endearing and like O's he's also really sad in this epit like really it's like kind of like a like he's like a really sad old man. Like you almost wonder if like there's one extra part of the story where like, well, when I retired, you know, my wife then died and now I have like nothing to do, so this is what I'm doing as opposed to like sitting and being like a sad widower at home.

Like you could like see them building even further on that story if they really want to do, because that's how kind of endearing the character is, to the point where you know, Barney is like this is a you know, this is a big deal. It's a big problem. But by the end of the time and he's walking him out the door, it's like you almost wish this guy would just stick around. Like in a lot of ways, like for me personally, I'm like, oh, here's that Phil leads to the cast whatever, like I'm not going to complain. Well that's you know.

That's what made that that last part part of it so funny is that he doesn't understand why Barney is gonna let him go, right, they need to help and he's gonna let him go, and basically he's just gonna go to another recinct and do the exact same thing. Well, that's the great line when wal Joe says, Hey, Nash, where are you going next? And he's like, I haven't decided. I love it. Yeah, but I mean the stuff with Bob Dishy, I also think really works for what we've seen with the show before, and kind of it's more in line with what we've seen with the show up until this point.

It doesn't feel so at odds with the tone of the show the way the last two episodes did. I mean, it's not it's not a period proof exactly, but it's a guy who's completely you know, I've had many sexual encounters. What the fuck is it that when his wife shows up and she's just like, I forgive you, and he's like, but I've done all these horrible things. Oh, that's okay, we'll work through it. Is there is there no depth to your like forgiveness.

It's like, I guess not like this, you know, you know it's yeah, it's it's it's way more in line with what I was expecting for this show going into the eighties. Uh, and you know, Hillstreet Barny Miller is not what I was expecting, and that is totally what those last two episodes were. But here's the thing, And in alternate universe, the show could pivot and have done that, and it would have been totally yeah, Like that would have totally been a thing and like all right, awesome, and like the show kind of does a different thing in the eighties because it's keeping up with the times. I just I think it would have been an awful shame to waste all of these really great comedic actors on something that is not best suited for their talents, not because they're not talented enough, but because the people writing for them aren't talented enough to really these aren't a botchko like, they're not like that's a different expectation.

Those are a different set of rules you're playing by. I just and I think that the people who write for this show, when they write really well for it, are as good as any of those shows, if not better, because the show resonates with police officers more than most shows, because it really is about what it's like as opposed to what everybody thinks it's supposed to be, like, yeah, yeah, well one of the things was it in? Was it in this episode? I think it was? Yeah, I think it was in this episode.

I think it's at the very beginning the opening of the show, where Dietrich is talking to Barny about the hockey game. Yes, it's so weird. That was. Now, that was a great example of the writers who well Dunan and Stein probably weren't even there yet for that. But if you remember an old episode, I think it's season two, maybe season three, the Russian Defactor.

You remember the guy who wanted to the fact he played in the orchestra for the Ballet, And in that episode, Dietrich is talking to Marty about the beauty of Swan Lake or something like that, and he's obviously very you know, knows what he's talking about. And then Marty says, oh, did you see it? And he's like, no, I had tickets to the hockey game. So we know already that he's a hockey fan and he gave up ballet to go see how now in this episode, it's a complete one eighty where he's like, oh, no, I went to the ballet. I don't you know, the hockey game is just for people who want to see you know, violence, Yeah, exactly.

So you know there's that thing where where in those days of the seventies and eighties the guys, well the writers didn't necessarily stay either, so but there was not an awareness. There was no big book of how it was going from beginning to end. So those things now that used to happen way more in sixties sitcoms, where you know, whatever you did one week the next week, I mean, the slate was completely wipe clean. There were no real continuing storylines or personality traits or you know, speaking of the Simpsons, well there you go. Yeah, I mean that's like that's like after the show effectively jumped the shark, that became the biggest criticism is like Homer's been a fucking astronaut.

You know, it's like, at what point have we just like not gone around the bend completely? And it's yeah, like you you point that out. It's like, man, just like a genuine misunderstanding of the show. But at the time, who cared, Like at the time Phil Leads played seven different characters in this show. That's not a thing that happens now, Like even on a show like I don't know, like a like a Young Sheldon or something like, you know, an example of a show I don't watch, but I'm sure I can speak to the idea that, like, the same actor, if they're on that show, is probably playing the same character, not a different character, every time, and no one is making note of it.

And that's even just a light and frothy comedic show, which is exactly me Like, yeah, for a actual network drama, you cannot have the same actor playing different characters unless someone make note of it, because it will make no sense. And like that's that's the thing. It's like those other things. Yeah, it's it's kind of an odd It's like someone's playing this show in a minor key, not the major key it's normally being played in, which is kind of odd. Speaking of Dietrich, what I really want to see is I want to see a greequel so that we can see the merry mix up that caused Dietrich to become a detective.

I know that was a weird line, so straight I'm like, wait, what mix up? This is the weird season of Barty Miller. That's what this is like the season where anything can happen. Yeah, and always does. Yeah, it's the Twilight Zone season.

And speaking of Twilight Speaking of Twilight Zone, Chris, now I've been too I've been too kind and encouraging to you all episode. So I will h make one criticism, and that is you said that we were sold the idea that Arthur Dietrich was an alien in earnest and I would just agree with that. I don't think. I don't think anybody was supposed to take that seriously. I don't know there Chris talks about it.

The more I buy that theory, explain to me why they did it, then auto for other than kyuk yucks when they've done it well more, you're talking about more than once? Are you talking about the the lie detector thing? The lie detector thing. There's also Richard libert future. Yes, the Richard Libertini went on your a A Dietrick to explain that one away.

Wait a minute, okay, but wait a minute, he's not an alien in that storyline idea. That guy came back from the future, so he's a time traveler. You're real, Dietrick. Isn't only Libertinis Libertini goes into the future, so he sees what becomes of Arthur Dietrich. I'm more I more interpreted as Arthur Dietrich is in that future.

Yes, yeah, he's in the fut. Sure, he's in the future. So how is he So how was he able to live that far in the future? Is he an alien? Oh that's what you're saying.

Oh, the guy if you remember the guy wasn't that far in the future, if you were remember not too distant future. Yeah, he was only like yeah, it was only like he was only like thirty years into the future or something. But didn't he say that there was like World Wars? Do you guys remember that? Like it was like it was a apocalyptic Well, you have to invest in zinc, that's for sure.

Wow. And again, because I have way too much time on my hands, I did the mathematical equation for everybody. And in fact, he would have made as much money with zinc as you would have made with gold. Oh that's hilarious. Wow.

If he had bought the amount of zinc that he was going to buy, the increase in price over those thirty years would have been equal to gold. Wow. But that's funny. So I mean, can we can we can disagree. That's perfectly fine otto, But to be fair, I will say you would agree it's not outside of the realm of possibility for that to be the case, given the in earnest other kinds of supernatural and paranormal things the show has introduced, like all of the Kenneth Tigar stuff, it's not outside of the realm of possibility, especially given the seventies and that kind of stuff being really in in the seventies see Eric von danikin Chariots of the Gods, all that kind of stuff.

I'm not saying it's I'm not saying it's guaranteed, but I'm saying they left room for there to be something like that just because why not. It's funny and it is fun Well, I'm probably thin skinned about it because when you go down that pass, I think of more like night Court, and night Court, which was obviously influenched by Barney, came much more of a fantasy all the time. You know, it was so fantastical the storylines that I don't like. When people compare Nike and Barney, I say, well, yes, but one was a realistic program and one was a fantasy. So you bristle at that is what I do.

Yes, I bristled, and you know me, Chris, I don't bristle easy. Yeah, I will say I understand that. But at the same time, like I think this show has done a very good job at balancing a fun sense of that with again being self aware that like those kinds of things can't get in the way of being realistic and NIGHTCRD just like at some point gave up on that. But that's okay. Yeah, it worked in the favor of that show, and it made that show a show that people remember and you know, you know, and that's not and that's fine.

Like I but I understand why you would bristle at that too, because in a lot of ways, I bet people that I bet people, and we never we never asked this question, Mike, But I'm sure people that really like cool check bristle when people compare it to The X Files, I'm sure they probably I'm sure they probably bristle at it because it's like, well, this is better. It's like I kind of get it, Like I can understand why you would feel that way, because like they're they're comparative, but they're not in a lot, and they're they're they're comparative, but in a lot of ways they're very different, and the things that make them different are the things that make them way better than other things that are similar to them.

And by the way, I happen to love the Richard Libertini episode and an amazing episode that whole joke is a favorite of mine and my friend doctor Madigan, who Mike knows. By the way, Tim I told Tim I was meeting with you guys tonight, and he said, well, please give my regards to Mike White and the Christa show. He's a big fan of yours. Chris, Oh, guys, so good. I love knowing that other people find what I say is is is really uh millennial and off putting.

There you go, now, did I say that? No, I just know I will say though, like a in a lot of ways, like this show has done a better job than even a show like Kolchak did at trying to be progressive. And I mean like this is a very progressive show. Like it's in a way that like the moments that it has those missteps seem bigger than they would otherwise because of how good of a job this show always does. That's fair.

Yeah, And like, there's a reason you wrote a book about this show. There's a reason we've spent three plus years of our lives talking about this show. There's a reason cops still love this show. And I think even if you showed it to a zoomer or millennial cops, so someone my age were younger, they would still probably find some humor in the mondanity that is shown on screen in this show. And that's because this show is important, and that's why you wrote a book about it, and that's why we're talking about it, and that's why when it has missteps, they really suck.

Because this show, for the most part, is like and I think Mike, I think I can speak for both of us, this is like the most solid show that we've watched together so far in a lot of ways, Like a lot of the other stuff we've watched together have had some episodes that have been really clunkers. This show, we've spent most of our time saying, this is a perfectly good episode, this is fun. It might be average, but I mean this show's average is still better than most shows best. And that's I mean, that's a pretty glaring or like a glowing you know, I don't know, it's it's a pretty It's pretty hard for me to say a lot of bad stuff about this show. But when the show has those moments that don't hit the same notes that it usually does, it's just like whoa who's writing?

Yeah? Yeah yeah. It was like I say, there's nothing there's no way to explain homicide. No, there's no way to explain it because it doesn't even stay through to this next episode, Like this next episode is such a massive recorrection of the show's tone. It's like, what did you just have?

Like did you just like have a dream episode for two episodes? Like where is this coming from? It's it's so strange, it is. Well, the other thing I said, I think I had to have said this in the book, but and that is the other thing that I never understood about the homicide episode was Oh, they're going to change all the precincts and they're all going to be specialty squads now, so one's gonna be haside, one's going to be narcotics, blah blah blah blah blah. And I'm thinking, excuse me, every single movie or TV show we saw in the nineteen seventies already had all big city police forces like that.

They and in fact, in one of the earlier Barney episodes, doesn't Barney lose the inspector or whatever he was going to be to a guy who has been in narcotics and he says, oh, sure, he was in narcotics. So he had a lot of high profile arrests and stuff under it, you know, in his group. So that part didn't make sense either, because every big city police force is broken up into those departments. Well, it feels like you would have like a special department on like the third floor, you know, the first floors uniforms, the second floor is like these detectives who are just there for anything, and then the specialty up on the next floor. Like if I were to set up police departments, but yeah, I it is weird when yeah, there are so many like oh yeah, Precinct one seventy two, the homicide department, you know, like they're they're always embedded as part of the other people, you know, but they have special specialists there.

You know. You think about La Confidential and it's like, well, Jack Vincennes got bous stored in narcotics and Actley's working homicides. It's like, yeah, they're all working for the same precinct, they're just doing different jobs. Right, Yeah, now you'll just go to one other precinct entirely to go to narcotics. Like that literally makes it, No, go to the twentieth I think that's on tenth or no, it's the tenth over twenty twentieth.

Yeah. Yeah, it's like what is this what is this insanity? Like this is not how this works. Like there's there's no bureaucrat on enough cocaine in nineteen eighty to suggest this change, because this is such a like change to the workflow, like that makes no sense, like that you couldn't even address this in one episode. This would be something that you would have to be like mention throughout the season that they're going to do at that beginning of the next season.

And it's like, okay, you're giving us like all of these things, and oh they're adding new people and other people are being taken. No, they just like one episode this is happening, and then huh, it's not anymore. It's like whoa. And then again like now we're just right back to the show as it was previously programmed just like whoa, so I I don't I. The other question that I have is does the delegate work better as then?

If we just okay the delegates the first episode of the seven season, does it work as the first episode of the seventh season, it would work fine as the first episode of I think it would be yeah, totally acceptable. Yeah, no, it would work fine. We just just it doesn't exist. I just I it doesn't it is so it's like it doesn't exist. Well.

The other thing that I always thought was funny too, is if we're supposed to believe that this like is like, is this a homicide squad for the entire city of New York? Right? Yes, So in any given shift you have three detectives for all the murders on the island of Vanhattan. That doesn't make sense. That's gonna be a long night, Barney Checks's glasses.

I got seventy five cases became fifteen hundred, and the matter of like that, it's it's yeah, it's so weird because again, like they it's it's never mentioned again. So cool. Well, I just want to I just want to thank you, gentlemen for bringing me on to trash a double episode of a show that I spent six years of my life writing a book about. Though thank you very much, I mean again, it it for me. It really like like Wojo's Girl was meant to be a pilot for a NILT Yeah, so like that for me has always felt like that's the explanation, Like that's the explanation that makes sense.

Like, even if it's bad, it makes sense. There's no explanation that would that would make homicide make sense because it's just for what they did. And then they go right back to an episode where Phil Leads is just a happy XCPA spiolent paperwork. Well, mister Caderman's getting murdered by young punks, you know, death's wish style, Like what the fuck? Show?

Like, I love this show, but even I have my moments of being like Barney Miller has maybe gone as close to jumping the shark as the show we'll probably ever get. I feel like now people on Facebook are experts and we're just amateurs with oh we're doing good. I was reading the other day on the Bernie Miller Facebook group, the fan group, that Wojo's Girl was one of five or six shows that they had planned because they were going to split up the entire precinct and they would all have their own solo shows. I smell bullshit in that statement, and I wanted to call this guy out, but I figured I would go to resident Bernie Miller, expert Auto Bruno and ask him any truth to that. Not, as far as I know, not a person, not Max, not not Hale.

No one ever said that to me. Tony did not say Tony Shean did not say that. This guy's trying to tell you the Epcot So you're saying, so you're saying that they felt like, oh, there was going to be a separate Dietrich show, and they're going to be a separate Harris show, and like like like a hotel in every section of Epcot, you got a Taylor to every person who loves this show. You got the Harris Show. And like that doesn't even sound real, Like how no, as much as as much as I love this show, Like, there's no way that they could pull off an Arthur Dietrich Steve Landisberg show like that, Like you just wouldn't work as much as I love him, Like it's not it wouldn't work at all.

First of all, nobody, no one a. No one ever said anything like that to me, be Danny. Danny wasn't crazy about Fish splitting off into its own show because he he wanted well, I mean, it wasn't just his problems with with able to go to It was also the fact that he wanted He felt he needed to focus all his attention on this one show to make it the best show that it that you know that he wanted it to be. So that's if anyone ever thought of that, or anyone ever brought that idea up, I can guarantee you, I mean to the you know, as much as I can guarantee you anything about this h that it was certainly not Danny Arnold's idea if anyone ever floated that idea out. But again, like I say, hell, Linda never mention anything like that.

Max was the one who told me that, you know, they wanted him to do a pilot because they wanted to spin him off, and he didn't really want to be spun off, so he had to get a separate agreement, saying that if he didn't want to do it, he didn't have to. After he saw the result. Smart man, yes, God, so I mean, like the smartest smartest decision. That doesn't that sound right to me? Would you would you say that, Like I said, everybody's an expert, right, Yeah, would you say that doesn't that doesn't pass the mustard, That doesn't.

I mean, that just sounds too wild. Like we already saw what happened when Gregory Sierra was given his own show, like because that is and that was kind of funny show. And it was not given not given much much of a chance. It was given like six episodes and it was And I thought that show was kind of funny from what I remember of it. I haven't been able to find any Hey, Gregory Sierra had had, Ralph Monset was de Sodo had had uh Alan Miller had a lot of good, good people in it.

But yeah, no, that that does not I don't know where did they did they say where they got that from? No, And I almost engaged, but I know that arguing on the internet is not a smart thing. To Arguing on the Internet is the smartest thing any one of us could be at a time like this, in these uncertain and troubling times, the best thing we can do is argue with someone on the internet about Barney Miller. I think the funnier thing is to call them out on an episode of this show, which is what you did, yes, because I know they won't listen because if I post a homicide part one, part two the Delegate, they'll say, I love the Delegate. That was great.

Oh the writing and howicide was terrific. Well that's the question that I have for you, mister Bruno, because you're again you are the Barney Miller expert. Season seven, as fans perceive it not a favorite season either. Oh well, I mean, I mean, I can't speak for the general population. Obviously, I was you know, I took it on as a job to write about an entire show, so I and you know, one of the things that some of the people, some of the people who were fans early on told me, in fact, couple of people on Facebook that I had met this was way before, had said, well, i'd want to see this, this and this, and one of the things they wanted to see was my opinion of things that they said, I would want the author to give it a bit.

So, you know, again, here's my feeling about my My thing about Barney was always that I thought it was woefully underrated for the time that it that it it played. Everyone always talked about all in the Family Mash, you know, all these other shows, and Barney kind of got the short shrift, kind of got forgotten, lost in the shuffle, whatever the case may be. And I always felt that it was underappreciated. I felt, as i've we've already said tonight, I felt that one of its strong points was the fact that despite serious subject matter throughout the course of the series, they were always almost always able to make it funny, even when they were even when they were dealing with serious issues, they they were always moments of humor throughout every episode.

For me, I think season seven overall is the weakest because I think it got away from the heart of the show, which was that human condition type of thing that I think set it apart so much. And season one is difficult just because the characters haven't found themselves yet. But every show goes through that. You know, we could all we all have our different opinions. I mean, I've said this to my my daughter before and she doesn't agree with this, but I don't think.

I think, I think any sitcom that attempts to go beyond five full season is treading on very challenging ground because I think most sitcoms after five full seasons can't help but reuse program idea. I mean, it's just you know what I mean, it's not the same as a drama. Well, on what I'm curious on what grounds does she disagree? Well, because she loves shows like Scrubs, which she felt the only bad season was that last extra season that they brought back, or you know, it's just sure. I just think it's because there's certain shows that she loves, and she loved the Frasier.

But she says, yeah, the last couple seasons were bad. She goes, but it certainly was funny after the fifth season. And again, I'm not saying that no sitcom should ever go past five seasons. I'm just saying it becomes more and more difficult. I think five is the ideal for a great sitcom.

Now here's the one that, in my opinion, went for a long, fairly long time seven seasons and really never stumble. And that's Mary Tyler Moore Show. Now again it unheard of, unheard of. That show is still amazing to me because if you watch it all the way through, it changes, the characters change, but it remains funny in different ways, even as the characters are growing and changing. It's still funny, it still has heart, it's still intelligent, it's really phenomenal.

Quite honestly, Dick Van Dyke show a perfect show. Five seasons they had I don't know, maybe three four bad episodes and five seasons unheard of, absolutely unheard of. But there are so few shows that can do that, and certainly Barney Miller seasons two through six I would hold up with the best of any five seasons of any show, any sitcom ever made. And that includes All the Family or Mash. All in the Family and Mash both the two that I never I never had the same affection for because I felt they became came too much of a dramedy as they went on.

You know now that said, I, Yeah, some of the Allen Ald episodes could get a little thick sometimes. Yeah. And he always had that, you know, he had those same jokes where he would say things three times and in a different way. You know, I won't fire this gun. I can do this to this gun, I can do this to this gun, I can do that to this gun, but I will not fire this gun.

And yeah, some of those were just much. I have huge affection for it. I haven't done a full rewatch, but growing up with Mash it was, you know, a perfect show, and I just remember the final final episode being a great final episode. But yeah, I imagine that if I go back and I watch season six through ten or whatever, that they're probably not going to be I mean, obviously, once Henry spoilers, once Henry Blake died, once Frank left, Once even I liked BJ, but Trapper was where it was at. Once those three principles left.

Each succeeding departure was a lesting of the quality. Yes, I did like a lot of Charles Winchester, but not nearly as much as Frank. I mean, David open Steers as fucking fantastic, but man, Frank Burns just was such a great character. Yeah. No, it just went on too too long and for me, and like that's why I say, I don't don't hold it in the same that everyone else.

Now, I just watched last night. I watched an episode of All in the Family, and you know, every time I watch it, you know it's now one of the episodes I was last night was season two, I think, so it was still, you know, but I had no problem with the with the subject matter of the All in the Family episodes because again, they covered serious stuff and were making it really funny. They were also somewhat you know, they were because there's times throughout that series where Michael is the annoying one. Now you can see where you know, Michael takes himself too seriously and becomes kind of potentious and whatever, and that's set off against Arnie or Archie's bigotry, and so you know, it's like not just one bad person all the time.

And again, Mike's not bad, he's a good guy, but it's just it's not so heavy handed and one sided. In fact. Danny Arnold, by the way, to bring it back to Danny Arnold, we were just talking about this because my wife watched this episode with me last night and she said, God, I loved Edith so much, And I said, you know, Danny Arnold in one of the interviews I got. The guy he was talking to was a guy named Bob Claster. I guess he used to be a radio guy in LA or something.

And Danny said to this bobclass or something that I've set often to my daughter the TV person, and that is you gotta have likable characters. You gotta like the characters. And Claster said to this guy, to Danny in this interview, which was like nineteen seventy eight, and he said, well, how do you explain Archie Bunker? And he said, well, that's a good question. He says, look at Edith Bunker.

And the guy said, well, what do you what do you mean? He says, Edith, we would all agree, is a wonderful person, and she loves Archie. Therefore, if she loves Archie, there's got to be something redeeming about that character. She is so loyal to him, so devoted to him. And I'm like, wow, that's that was an interesting, you know, an interesting insight into that because he could I mean, you know, he could be so awful, but at the same time he was funny and you knew that he was ignorant, right, I mean, well, yeah, she was the March Simpson of her day.

She's the redemptive arc of the character, right, yeah, I mean semi yeah. To bring it back to the Simpsons, like, yeah, I mean March Simpson is she's that for Homer, that's how you I mean, I mean Homer is lovable a lot less abrasive, but I mean those early seasons you could make the case to like jerk ass, Homer and all of that really fun stuff what the show gets. Once the show got bad, or at least what was bad for a while, apparently it's good again. But it Yeah, I think it's really interesting because I was going to ask you and then you said it two through six. It's like that that right, there are are the gates because the first season of this show was very off, not off, but odd, like it was just it was it hadn't found its footing yet, which is perfectly fine.

Like, I'm not sure anybody is gonna go tell anyone to watch the first season of TNG. Actually I know most people wouldn't, but that does not inform the rest of the quality of that show, which is, you know, again, one of the great shows of television. And this show is is in that same conversation, what's TNG the next generation start? For the next generation trek? Yeah, yeah, I mean, hey, it's not for it's not for everybody, but but you know, but you know, neither is Barney Miller.

But that's okay. I think I think that's the thing about really quality classic television is like even though it might not be for you, if you watch an episode of it, you can understand like how and why and who it resonated with and Barney Miller like I don't know, it's I'm excited to see what a misstep for this show looks like, frankly, because it's been so good up until this point. Like all right, like if this season is kind of strange and odd and it does weird things, like okay, like I'm it can't get any worse than homicide. No, I don't think you'll see anything this again. Like I say, the episode and I just looked it up is coming up later in this season.

It's episode thirteen called The Librarian, which doesn't give away the storyline that I'm talking about, but it's very, very very serious. But there is especially even at the end, but even throughout it, you see that humanity with which I which I treasure so much in Barney Miller. You see that in that episode coming up the Library, and that you'll that you'll uh, you'll recognize when you get to it that oh, this is what Otto was talking about. Well, and that's the thing. I mean, I love the fact that this show does have those moments because like, I mean, those are I mean, Mike mentioned it with the harrisoncident, Like it gets serious in those moments, but that's when it shows and when Shano shot, you know, shot the guy in that episode, Like those are the moments where the show really shines because it goes that one step further, and I mean that's why, that's why this show is what it is.

And and a lot of it is how Lindon, Like a lot of it really is how Lindon as well. Like credit, what season is the Slave in? Have you guys watched that one yet? Yeah? We did watch that one?

Was that season six? Yeah? It was Yeah, you're right, yeah, because that's another thing. That's another good one that's that's serious but also funny, uh and Ry and iron. You know, it's got a lot of land.

The Uniform Day. The Uniform Day is kind of serious too. I think we talked about that one because that's when Barney and Harris kind of break as being friends and they become more kind of frenemies. I think even now, like you know, well maybe not maybe this season they'll just be completely weird to one another, which would which would track. Given that this season is shaping up to be unlike anything we've seen up into this.

Well again, I'm I'm excited for I watched about a week or so ago, I watched The Sting with my son and he had never seen it before, and of course I had seen it numerous times. And I said, but it's fun to watch the Sting with someone who's never seen it before, you know, for them to kind of get that. So it's fun for me knowing what you still have ahead of you, Chris, that will you know, the roller coaster that will take you up and down. And I'm excited the show is. The show is being weird, and I'm also glad to know that you and you kind of, you know, let it out a little bit.

I'm glad to know that the show kind of redeems itself as well in the end, because I think it does. Yeah, that would, that would because I haven't read it. I haven't read ahead in your book. I've only been reading as much as we've been watching. And oh, okay, and I don't I don't want to know how this ends, because like, this is going to be the first show where I'm like genuinely sad when we're done with it.

Not that I'm saying we weren't with Colchak. I think we were when we did some things with Father Malone on Dreams for Sale, we were kind of getting a little wistful about that, or with Rankin. But this is like a pretty big project that I mean, Mike, you and I have been doing for quite some time, and like we're getting into the home stretch, and I'm glad to know that, Like this show doesn't do it seemingly everything else has bitches, yeah, which is take a big shit right at the end. Everything else we've watched has taken a ship at the end and not cleaned it up. I'm glad this show takes a shit but cleans it up at least in the end, because that that that puts some joy in my heart.

On our next episode, we're going to get reintroduced to an actor who is now playing a new character as Dorsey. We will be talking about Dorsey, Agent Orange and call Girl, one of our favorite subjects around here, very pro sex worker. And we've got yet another call Girl on here, so we'll be talking about those next month when we come back with some more The Life and Times of Captain Barney Miller until then, Otta, what are you working on these days? Sir? Actually since last week talked?

Remember did I did I spill the bag on what the next book book? Oh? My god? You and Madigan with friggin Victor Wono. No, I'm actually for Bear Manor.

I'm working on a Dean Martin book. But what happened is I had written a series of articles for many years for this publication in Chicago, and I'm now putting those together and that's going to be a collection of profiles. But that's a baseball book on Italian American baseball players. That's I'm doing for McFarland. So yeah, I got a couple of things on my plate right now.

That's terrific. I'm really glad to hear that. Yeah. Yeah, a lot of a lot of serious work. I have to get to after the holidays because I have some deadlines coming up.

And Chris, how about yourself? Just running the ship over to weirding Way Media doing audio podcast with you, Mike. We've got some new stuff coming after the first of the year, some Patreon stuff, talking about James Bond movies on Patreon, doing some other weird esoterica things and yeah, we'll see sopranos. Who knows. Weirdingwaymedia dot Com is where you can find all of it and the culture cast that thing too.

About you, Mike, Well, yeah, I can find everything that I do over at Weirdingwaymedia dot com, including the Projection Booth, which is a movie podcast that I do. I would say once of the week, but I was just counting up and this year or I have put out one hundred and seventy eight episodes so far. Whoa, yeah that over achiever. Yeah, I'm like, really, is that that number can't be right? Oh, it's right.

I mean it's wrong, but it's right. Well, now I feel bad because that means I was on less than two percent of them. Then, brother, that I don't even know what the number would be for the two of us together, because like, well, I mean when you look at some of those things like this, what was it seven to eight part Raiders of the Lost Arc series that we did the reading on the Lost Arc where we had what three main things plus three follow up discussions plus two interviews plus a review of Dial of Destiny, So those add up, you know, that's all part of that special Reports number one hundred and twenty special reports, so some were, you know, ten minutes long, others were an hour long, so you never knew where you're gonna be in that, but wow.

Yeah. So those were all over at Wirdowaymedia dot com and you can also check out my Patreon at patreon dot com slash projection booth where you can get all that stuff with a very minimal amount of ads. Pretty much. The ads that are in there are just ads for other weirdo we media shows, so can I always have fun with that. I want to thank John Walker for theme music.

I want to thank everybody for listening. Please, if you like the show, rate and review it. We don't like the show, then shut the hell up.