215: The Primer Paradox

Hi, I'm Leah Thompson. You're listening to Movie Meltdown. The following feature has been rated R by the Motion Picture Association of America. It is intended for mature audiences and parental discretion is advised. It's showtime, folks.

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Man, I wish I could go back in time. I take state. Way down among Brazilians, coffee beans grow by the billions. So they've got to find those. Extra cups to fill.

They got an awful lot of coffee in Brazil. What's up and welcome to Movie Notepad. I'm Brian. I'm Alan. I'm Lucy.

I'm Chris. I'm Ben. I'm Marlena. And I'm Greg. And we're back for another session of the Caffeinated Movie Geek.

Cappuccino my butt. I still drink coffee. The last fucking thing you need is another cup of coffee. It's time for the Caffeinated Movie Geek. We are coming to you live via digital recording from Nancy's Bagel Grounds, where we will get together, talk movies, and try to figure out the space-time continuum.

So, Marlena, I ask you, what blend of coffee are. We drinking this week? Thundermuck. Say it the way you want to do it. Come on.

Not to be confused with Thundermuscle. You previously liked Thundermuckle. Well, yes, but I've been watching the increasingly poor decisions of Todd Margaret, and now it is Thundermuscle. Good to know. Mm-hmm.

Thunder Muscle, ladies and gentlemen. Not the coffee we're drinking. Yeah, I always want to sing it in the style of ACDC. Yeah. Dude, you talk about it.

I don't know. I'm sure they will get tired of anything. So, for this week's geek activity, this is not, I'm introing with the movie, but then I kind of want to go in a whole different direction. I did see Argo this week. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. It's great. He does an amazing job directing. He's good in the movie. Thing is, I knew everything.

And not just spoilers for real life. We kind of know what happens. But also, is it just me? And this happens all the time. The trailers show you so much of everything.

I felt like I knew every move that was coming in that movie. And not because I knew that much about the history of it. I just sort of remember they stole some people. I remember the Iranian hostage situation, but I don't remember hearing this side story at all, so it. Would have been really interesting, except I'd already heard everything about it.

Do we think the trailers are killing it, or is just press beforehand killing the stories? But I don't know, is it just me? Because I've had a couple. Movies this past year that I felt like I already know everything that's coming. I think.

No, go ahead. I think you hated it, didn't you? I did. I think, well, I mean, just because the story, the main story of the movie is the... I don't know if you're saying, like, what exactly was spoiled.

I'm guessing it was just the fact that they had a fake movie production. Like, that whole thing. I didn't know everything. It definitely. I agree with you.

Yeah, yeah. Like, not knowing that going in, it would have been a way more interesting movie. It would have been so interesting. But at the same time, like, that's such... That's kind of the story of the movie in a way.

Like, you do... From a marketing standpoint, you do have to have that hook. You can't just be like. A little bit. The Iranian.

There's so much. Yeah. I'll be honest, like, if I didn't know it was about this whole, like, you know, kind of deceptive plan to, you know, have a fake sci-fi movie, I probably wouldn't have been interested to see it. So I have to, I do have to, you know, say that, you know, I'm glad that the trailers, and I didn't even know this story to begin with, so it's basically, you know, I was having a little, the trailers were kind of educating me as far as the whole. Situation when it happened.

But, yeah, like, it does kind of suck because there's that kind of, At the same time, you do want an audience for the movie, and you want them to know that there was this cool story that no one really talks about, and it was kind of under wraps by the CIA until, you know, fairly recently. I mean, or at least it had been kept under wraps for a long time. And, you know, but, you know, you still, at the same time, you want it going fresh. You want to, you know, be surprised. That's the thing.

I was thinking as I sat there and the curtains were rolling, I was like, I knew nothing. I just walked in off the street and had no idea this was even based on it until they get into it and they tell you that. But even then, if you knew none of the setup, that would be a. Pretty amazing story. But I just felt like I knew so much about it that it.

Again, I just sort of appreciated what technically they were doing, recreating everything, but it just... It seemed so spelled out for me already before I even got to the theater. Well, here's the thing. I think when a movie is good, then it doesn't matter. Like, Lincoln, we know what was going to happen.

Like, Zero Dark Thirty, we know what was going to happen. What does happen in both of those movies? I'm curious. But I felt Argo was frustrating because we knew what was going to happen just from a historical standpoint. But he tried to, like, manufacture all of this tension that felt really silly.

Like, the actual getaway with the plane at the end. Yeah, so true. But it worked so well. Like, it worked so well in the moment. I was like, ah, getaway, getaway.

Like, I totally, in the back of my head, I'm like, this is so, like, this is Hollywood. I give him credit as a director. Like, he does know how to direct a scene and make it tense, even when it shouldn't be. Because you know the outcome. But those scenes. by themselves outside of the story, those scenes still work.

I think in line with what we were saying, this is very, I mean, when you have Ben Affleck's The Town, it's not a movie that you have to explain to get. It's The Town, you're in... Exploding, Frank Robbins. That's it. So I think while still, I.

Don't want to ascribe, I'll side with Lucy on this, I don't want to give Ben. Too much credit in terms of complexity but I think just on the base level this movie is a more complicated sell especially for if you want to bring on like previous fans of Ben Affleck films I will say I really like the small bits of anything there's one scene where he's getting the visa to go to Iran and this is one of my favorite things in the movie the guy stamps the thing and it says like the country of. Iran or whatever the look Well, I was going. To say when he marks out and pin, like they were so quick in the turnover, it's now the Islamic Republic of Iran, and they hadn't updated their state documents yet. So he marks out and pin on the visa stamp and writes Islamic Republic of Iran.

I really love the small parts about that and then especially the– I thought the great scene– and what you find out in hindsight is the third act like escaped. That was all manufactured. The plane actually went off flawlessly. They just walked straight through the airport. That's kind of what I wondered, how much of that tension was totally added.

But the tension at the opening scene, the actual sacking and then burning the documents. And that scene was amazing. That opening, the U.N. storm, or not the U.N., the embassy storm, that was just one of the most suspenseful. What were you saying about that one? No, yeah, I was going to say, I think it was the same scene where he's getting his passport checked and, like, you know, you don't think it's going to go through, and it's this really tense moment, like, you know, in this moment, you know, they could all fail, and, you know, everything could just go downhill.

And they finally find him, you know, they up them in the system in the nick of time. His name shows up, and then, like, right in that moment, he says, like you say, you were talking about the little things, and this was kind of more of a character kind of moment where he just kind of, like, looks up, and he's like, thank you, God. Like, that was just kind of a cool part. It was just, it's like, I mean, this is one of those movies I saw this year that was definitely made for an audience to entertain. Like, it had those.

He just made sure to, you know, sprinkle those fun character, like, you know, you can laugh here. This is a funny joke. You know, this is really intense. Like, I mean, it's kind of. Like Django did the same thing in a lot of ways.

It was just a very, just made to be seen in a theater with an audience. It wasn't, Zero Dark Thirty, on the other hand, was a very more just kind of intense and gritty, realistic kind of type movie. But this was kind of a fun, almost like a heist movie. I mean, it wasn't a heist for me, but like, you know, when they're all in the van. They were stealing people.

It kind of had this fun, kind of like, yeah, this is the, it was like an Ocean's kind of 11 kind of cool thing. We're all playing cards. We're going to recover. Ocean's in Iran? Yeah, Ocean's in Iran.

Wait a minute. But again, this fun kind of vibe, it just, it was a fun, even though it was like, you know, based on history and everything, it was this kind of fun, I won't say light entertainment because it wasn't light, but yeah, I just had that. Kind of made-for-an-audience kind of feel to it, I think. Here's the other problem I have with it. It felt like one of those movies.

Okay, it's a dumb plan. Like, honestly, they keep, they. Keep, but they keep being like, this man's dumb. It's so crazy, it might actually work. That's right.

No, it really, it really is a bad thing. Doesn't he actually. Say that in the movie, like, Bryan Cranston, like, he literally says, like, It's so crazy. I feel like there's one point where someone does say that. There's all these nods.

There's all these acknowledgments to the fact that it is, in fact, the stupidest plan ever. But it's one of those things. It is the filmmaker's fault because they made the movie. Seriously. I feel like this movie and The Impossible were two films that were so hard, frustrating to watch because The Impossible was one of those things where Somebody heard this story and was like, this story is so amazing.

We have to tell this. Story because it's so cool. And it's so implausible that you have to keep being reminded, no, this really happened. This really happened. Because if it hadn't really happened, it would be the world's stupidest movie.

No, the fact that it happens makes it a story. You tell it a cocktail party. It's not a movie you sit through for two hours. Do you enjoy the Alan Arkin, like the Hollywood stuff? I like Alan Arkin always.

I personally think that, I mean, I like the Hollywood part was awesome. I mean, but I still feel like they, John Goodman was a little underused. I mean, he was good. He was good. He's, I mean, but like I had, what happened was like, I had just, I think right before I saw Argo, I just seen flight and John Goodman kind of plays the same.

But I, I totally prefer John Goodman in flight. He was more... He's a cartoon character. Yeah, he was, like, a caricature. And it was, like, a little over the top.

It's like, I love him because I love John Goodman, and if it was anybody else... Yeah, I mean, he's good in both movies. Don't get me wrong. And this is, like, a minor nitpick, really, in terms of just, like, I really did... This wasn't a.

If anything, like, I don't have any real problems with John Goodman in this movie. But, yeah, for one thing, I personally don't understand why they're... I mean, Alan Arkin has got all this... I mean, this is sort of, like, awards attention for Argo... because his role didn't really stand. Out in that way to me.

I was totally kind of blown away when it was like, he's nominated for, like, of all people, Alan Arkin again? He was good in it, but he was still kind of the curmudgeon-y, like, oh, you know, I've been through it. I mean, I'm not saying it's a lazy performance, but it's like the same. It's one note. Yeah, in a little bit.

Ben Affleck was on Fresh Air with Terry Gross, and he was talking about casting Alan Arkin, and he said that his biggest hesitation. For casting Alan Arkin to start out with was that he almost thought it was too obvious a choice. That the role was so perfect for Alan Arkin that he felt like it would be a cop-out. So I don't know, you couldn't. Really get from the message, from the interview though, if he had, it wasn't like, so I decided to cop out.

He kind of sidestepped how he had made that decision. It's a good move on me. Yeah, it's like, and you know, he never says, so how I made this work. Like, you know, he totally left that part out. Oh.

He just ended it with people like Alan Arkin. Yeah. Be in. Also, Michael Park shows up for a second, and I was like, why don't you keep him in the movie, please? I don't know.

Why. I mean, he clearly had a bigger part, I think, that was cut, but he just shows up like, oh, Michael Park's like this. Ryan Cranston's good. Ryan Cranston's awesome. He's pretty good.

You can pepper him into anything. Yeah. I think there's so many good things about it, but it's got. I don't know. That was my main issue, like, sitting there the whole time, just, like, they've blown so much of this story, which was already a known story.

I didn't have any issues with it. Like, I'd seen the trailer, I'd seen the story, I went into the movie, and it just was on the edge of my seat. I loved it. So, you know. Again, I think those moments work.

Even when I didn't buy them. I kind of, like, I liked it a lot, but I don't think I liked it as much as Save the Town, because I think... Ben Affleck is even better when he's in that kind of pulp Boston kind of setting. His sense of space and his... I don't know.

The Town and God May Be Gone are the only movies I've seen, like Boston movies. Even The Departed didn't really do this for me. You feel like you're kind of in... You get the feel of Boston, the feel of the city. With The Departed, it's just... it does it you can totally tell it's like a filmmaker who's like not in his home like in his he's out of his element and he doesn't quite know how to film the city so it kind of feels the sense of space is kind of weird yeah and like the in the town there's moments like in the shootout scene particularly where they're in the van like you feel like you're just kind of driving around the city just i really like how he achieved that that was just it was a very immersive thing that was kind of lost in this movie i feel like was that sense of space, I guess.

He's going back to Boston for his next film. Except it's going to be a Prohibition-era period piece. So we'll see how that goes. That'll be interesting. I've liked all three movies that he's directed so far.

It is amazing the career that he's turned around in like 10 years. I mean, he was. He was a huge actor, but he had no respect. And then he kind of quit acting for a while. And within that time, totally became an Oscar caliber director.

So just in that short span of time, that's an impressive career. He became a Golden Globes caliber director. But it's Jennifer Garner. That's what changed. It was really funny, too, though, because in that little hiatus, Casey Affleck came onto the scene.

And everybody was immediately like, this guy's the way better brother. He was in. The assassination of Jesse James. Then he directed Joaquin Phoenix in the. Most bizarre film of all time.

I'm still here. But then. But. Then it kind of took the long life back. We haven't really seen Casey Affleck in.

A couple of movies. I think he has a couple of new movies. He's in a Wands and Sundance movie. But yeah, he hasn't really done too much. It's like all.

Of a sudden that guy that was the young guy in Killing Him Softly this year. He looks like they tried to cast Casey Affleck, but it's like, this guy kind of looks like him, we'll cast him instead. Yeah, no kidding. Yeah, I don't know what that actor's name is. I'm just like, I'll just be like the guy who looks like Casey Affleck.

He looks good. He looks scared really well. Yeah, he looks scared really well. I mean, he was really good in it, I forgot. He was.

I just wanted to address that. We can head on into this week's movie. So we'll take a break here and be back with this week's feature. Thank you. And now, before the next show starts, let's enjoy an intermission.

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We're a show that is ostensibly about horror. Booby bouncing that monkey was Benson. He had sex with Kim Cattrall open your mouth so I can fill the void rats are. Gross far eastern yeti have smaller feet than. So like what are we supposed to learn from that You're like, shit, this is the one with the really fat guy.

Yeah. Damn it. Okay. They gave each other a Dutch rudder. It was fine.

Apparently you've never been to makeitandy.com. Those are flaps, not doors. Woody. Anyway. Who's Woody?

It's a wiker with a booty. It looks like Mike's jerking it over there. I'm going to class it up now. After that smut. Shows are most popular by the way they smell.

You're a real black hole right now. He sure is. I'd bang him. The horror of unreleased Beach Boys songs. There you go.

Are you referring to my lady right now? Nope. Night of the Living. Podcast. N-O-T-L-P dot com.

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When the sun don't shine, you are mine. When the sun don't shine, you are mine. This is Amy Simons, and you're listening to Movie Meltdown. That was me melting down. It's time for Sofa Theater.

So if it's an incubator for fungus, is that valuable? That's not what it is. Then what is it? Well, there's one other way that it could secrete that much protein. It could do it naturally, but that takes a lot longer.

A lot longer. But if it has a little moisture and it's left alone, it'll start secreting and it'll build up and build up, but it takes a long time. How long? A long time. More than a few days?

Yes. Then how long? He says to get the same amount of protein that we had, the same amount that I was wiping off every five days, and five days later it would accumulate. He says it would take about five to six years. I want to belittle this guy.

Exactly. So I said, screw it, and I put my watch in there. And? I want you to do it. Where's the box?

I took it back to the shop. Wait, digital or old mechanical? Exactly. I did both. And what?

I want you to do it. Hey, what did I do? Can't believe the fit. I just threw. Stupid.

Hey, wonder the reaction. Hey, wonder the reaction. I remember the words, how. I said them so they would hurt. But then I regret my actions.

I regret my actions. If I could press rewind, rewind the tape, redefine the lines that make my fate, take it back in time just one day. Hey. So all I need is a time machine. A one-way track.

Cause I'm taking it back, taking it back. All I want is a glory run. If I could go just like that. I'll be taking it back, taking it back. I'm more confused by this.

I've studied this timeline and it's made it more confusing. I get that. I don't. I've avoided that one. It looks ridiculous.

This is like homework. All right, so obviously we're looking at the diagrams here, and we've got. Out a slide rule. So we're obviously back, and we're going to be discussing this week's Super Theater Feature, Primer. The year is.

2004, director Shane Kurth. The plot, which usually on IMDb is so specific and spoils everything, If you haven't read it, this is the most vague plot, specifically for this movie. It's kind of funny. The plot, according to IMDb, four. Friends slash fledgling entrepreneurs, knowing that there's something bigger and more innovative than their different error-checking devices they've built, wrestle over their new invention.

The end. Really? Wow. You summarized the first scene? Yeah.

Not the movie? Right. That's very strange. So that's spoiler. Alert because we plan on going way more in.

Depth than that just did. But that's the only thing I'm sure of. I suppose. Is that. From that point.

The plot's actually seemingly pretty straightforward. It's only like an hour and 15 minutes long. And for the first. Hour it's like actually really straightforward. Like I've seen it twice now.

The first time I was told it's a really confusing thing. I was like I get this. Like it's a little. Weird but I get it. And then um And then it just all turns on its head.

And then you go back and watch it again, and there are all sorts of things that you don't... I don't know, like, I decided to take notes this time, and there are things you don't even realize you need to take notes on. And I was talking to a friend who's seen it, like, five times and made me watch it in the first place, and he's like, well, did you notice this and this and this? And I said, no, because it's. Just too much.

Yeah. I think the plot is straightforward. The science behind it is, like, overwhelming for people who don't have, like, a degree in astrophysics so go. Into it a little off sometimes but. You know i think um there's so much um and it's not it's not necessarily science for me it's that that when that you're kind of slow to me i was slowly realizing that oh i got the deeper it got in the more complex it got in i guess for me and i was like oh i've missed that and i missed that and i missed you know.

And I don't like that. You know, I can handle one or two things, but then I was like, oh, everything they said is important. You know. It was not at all. Right.

So we have a slightly negative pressure in the box. So we're ready for the argon. Which one is that? The blue one. Blue one.

I weighed it at 77 grams. Set the scale to decagrams, though. I'm showing 7.... 7 decagrams. We're ready for.

05 liters of argon. I was 15 minutes in, and I was just like, oh my god, shut up. I don't care. They're talking so much jargon to the point that I know it was on purpose. He's trying to create a very specific, realistic world.

He doesn't like the fanciful science fiction stuff. He wants it to be real world, but there's a dividing line. Of making it entertaining, versus just spouting out jargon. I think there's a difference there, and it crosses the line for me. I liked what you said, that you got a little bit in, and you were like, oh wait, I was.

Supposed to be paying attention. The film, the first scene, it's kind of like office space, but if they had a better work ethic. There's four guys. Sitting around, and they're after work attire, still wearing their ties, and they're arguing about a business plan, you know getting by not seeming overly happy about their you know relatively comfy white collar status and then you just have that shift. And you were like wait i was there all along.

I just didn't realize. We haven't even said what happened like what the film's. Well, we had the whole plot. We talked about it. We're 15 minutes in and we haven't talked about anything yet.

Well, then we'll get to my favorite part. My favorite part of the whole movie, Weebles. Yes. First shot was a really lovely shot. Weebles with slime on them.

I like Weebles. So that's my favorite part. Yeah, they build a box and the box is supposed to do one thing and it has the side effect of doing another, which again is a very purposeful thing. He wanted to do that, you know, most great inventions aren't the invention they were going for. It's an offshoot of something that happened by accident.

They have the Reese's peanut butter cup of inventions here. Oops, you got time travel in my gravity device. So, they build this box, and then they build a bigger box, and I don't know. I don't think we need to spell out the whole thing. We need to figure out the difference of it.

So, then they start traveling in time, kind of, sort of, or napping. A lot, depending on the story. Yeah. Here's what I was confused, and, like, I just watched this right before I came here, and I was, like, really tired. That was my viewing experience as well.

Yeah, and, okay, I understand that within the box, time... comes unstuck if you will for lack of like a better scientific term but like it didn't seem to affect things outside of the box you know like when they're standing there and they realize that this fungus that would take like five years to grow grew in like five days it like everything outside the box was not affected so it's just like regardless of whether or not you were in the box maybe you aged more or less but it's just like i don't see how that affected everything else that's that's what i was are. We talking about the paradoxes yeah like like their ability to travel through time, it seemed like time changed within the box and not necessarily around it.

But I mean. Well, it's supposed to only change inside the box. Yeah. It's not supposed to affect anything outside. But that was also a hole.

As I delve further into this, they were talking about how the science doesn't even match up. In the beginning, they're talking about how when they send the Weeble through, it's accelerating time. And they're actually like, it's taken five and six years to get this, you know, moss going on. Whereas. Later, they get back in and it's really, it all becomes about going back in time and moving around and they don't really go through that.

That was discussed when he said if you could get something to go out the wrong side. See, they kept taking it out A, he was going out B. But they still seem like they should be suffering effects from this the way that the Weevil was. Maybe not quite, well, it depends. I mean, they didn't leave that in for that long, but the time.

Is accelerating so much that it starts, you know, they start getting lost and there's So all we get is that hint of the blood that there's something going wrong there, but we don't. They never, again, it's another big loose end that they never really tie up or address. Yeah. No, go ahead. Sorry.

Say with the Weevil though, it's like, it's, it's going through multiple revolutions and they're taking care of like each time to only go through one revolution. So like the Weevil is going through, would they say years? Yeah. I said five or six years. Years of, before it gets kicked out at the end and they're not sitting in the box waiting to get kicked out they just they're setting.

The time right because they said that the weevil is like going on like a loop of cul-de-sacs just around and around yeah. But how long is there I mean how long is the weevil in there during this thing it's not it's. Not existing in a time it's not existing in a time so it can it's been in there a lot longer than even they're perceiving like theirs is like 5 to 22 or something like that you know and I think the Weevil is, since it's not, since there is no timer and it's in that state, in that place, it doesn't have to, the fact that they're breaking the cycle doesn't mean that it's only been six hours. For the Weevil. It's been. years for the Weevil in addition to the time that it's traveling.

It still just seems like an issue, even if they found that way to fix it at the end, to bring up that in the beginning and then not balance it out. Like, why even bother with the moss thing if it's not going to come into play into the entire rest of the world? Well, to show that there's a loop going on for however long until eventually it kicks it out. And they never figured out why it gets kicked out at the end, but that it has to. Which, you know, it's okay that to me that they didn't explain that because they, they just discovered this.

They don't understand everything. So the fact that there's stuff they don't understand, like that just makes sense. Um, but I wasn't bothered by that part. Like at all. We have a diagram and it's extremely complex.

Um, now I can't get the two guys, especially cause they're a and a, and I don't think they will refer to each other. I, I, maybe I got lost, but the redhead or the blonde guy was the blonde guy. Yeah. Okay. The blonde guy.

So he, He's the one that approaches him on the park bench. What layer of him is that at the park bench? You've got Abe on the roof looking down. You've got Abe down at the park bench. Then you have Aaron who already has the earpiece in.

Right. He's already at the end. When you get into time loops, then. There is supposedly a first time through before everything takes effect that I guess– Even with the earpiece, he was actually just listening to the game the first time. And then he goes back and changes things, and everybody comes into play after that.

But there should, I mean, you can't, there should. Be a first time through for you to be able to have a loop. Well, it gets all. But then you circle back in the loop. There's the failsafe machine, which is going back.

Which is screwing up everything. Once you got to the failsafe machine. Yeah, that's when it. All fucked up. I thought it was really interesting, even with all this complexity going on, of how mundane the actual mechanism is.

I mean, this isn't the time machine. You're not flipping a switch. The way that you do it is you turn it on like it's a dishwasher. And then you get inside of it, and you have to physically stay in there for like six hours. And then meanwhile, if you're the guy on the outside who's, you know, at the beginning of the film when they're trying not to deal with things, they just go to a hotel room and hang out for six hours.

Like, it's... It's a very crawl. Snail's pace way to time travel. I kind of like that aspect. I don't know about you guys, but I spend a lot of time worrying about how dumb everybody is.

And then I think, like. How, like, there's so many inventions that are like, how did a person do that? Because everyone I meet's really dumb. And then you realize, well, maybe it's because we just accidentally step into this shit. So I kind of liked that aspect.

That's what happens with, like, with most things, I think, so. But my problem with them just their performance as they go along it's like they are they start doing very dumb things which you probably would in this circumstance if this happened and you stumbled upon something huge like this you probably would. But they seem so calm and in. Control all the time even when they're looping back around and stabbing each other and themselves in the back and like there's all that like they should be a little more gravel they should be a little more unhinged by the end of this movie when all of this stuff has happened and they're just like Now we're going to go back to the machine. It's just so in control when, in the beginning, that makes sense.

By the end, they should not be that common at all. There's no sense of self-awareness. Like, holy crap, we have time travel now. They're just like, hey, honey, how's it going? And then the wife leaves the room and they're talking about time travel.

Or even like, oh, my God, we're going to be billionaires. High five. No, it's just like, well, all right, so we replaced the. That's what I felt absurd about this movie to me because, like you said, no one flipped their shit over like we. Just invented this thing.

It just felt like literally the whole movie was like, it's like your really smart math friend, like, just solving this complex problem in front of you like i feel like the movie it was trying so hard to say that this totally impossible thing time travel is possible and it's like here's why and it's like it took it so seriously and it's like it's time travel if you're gonna make a movie about it don't make a time travel movie that's purely about time travel the best time travel movies have fun with the fact that this shit is impossible and we're like terminator like you know it's Like I said, this whole diagram, the fact that you have to. I have the same problem in this section. You watch a movie and then you have to have this fucking map after you watch it to explain.

How to watch the fucking movie. It's like, that's not a movie. What the fuck? Really? Some people.

It's just one of those movies you have to know what you're getting into when you watch it. Like I said, if you're into this kind of thing, I can totally get why if you're an engineer... Like, you have a mind like these guys, like, why it might be fascinating. And I kind of thought it was fascinating, too, like, for the first half hour or so. But then I was just like, you know what?

This isn't going anywhere. The people aren't behaving like– there's no real drama that I'm invested in. No, there's not. And it's just– like you said, it's just about– the whole movie is about proving, like, this is possible. I mean, there's always going to be holes.

And you're creating more holes was what you're doing when you're, like, making it more complex. All you're doing is creating more holes into this whole– you know, how you're, I don't know, just the way you're trying to create time travel is just, it seems pointless to me. And if you're going to make a, like, in terms of making a movie. Maybe if you're, like, pitching this to, like, NASA or something. You know, like, put this to use.

Like, put this kind of thinking to use. Don't make a movie about it. I was talking last night. I was describing it. It's not really a science fiction movie.

It's a science movie that has a fictional... It's more like an interesting philosophical mind experiment illustrated rather than an entertainment. That's true. I mean, it's like there's no other movie I've seen that's like it. And it is...

It does provide... It is something different. I'll say that. But it's just... Have you seen Triangle?

What is Triangle? I like Triangle. It's like this, but there's something at stake and it's entertaining. It's entertaining. See, the problem with this is I just felt like there was never any humanity to it at all.

I mean, that just didn't exist. Like, there was no character development. You weren't invested in these people. It had such a completist, like, I want control of, like, making time travel possible. Like, it wanted to get to that point and finally, like, you know.

Like, I just felt at points, like, it was taking it so seriously, like, how much it wanted you to believe. And how time travel might be possible. I'm like, that's kind of... That's interesting, you know? Like, it's really.

It, you know, maybe... But the fact remains, like, this is a... I don't know. Like, just. The fact that you're trying to pitch this to me in a movie...

Like, you're trying to pitch it so hard in a movie and then the characters are so nonchalant about it and they're just concerned with pitching how. you know, how logical, like, I just couldn't go with it, I guess. I just think if you invented time travel, you shouldn't, like, your concern shouldn't be to, like, swindle the stock market. You invented time travel. Dude, you're going to be a fucking trillionaire. Let everybody know.

When they said, we can publish, I was like, yes! Stop! That's it. We can publish. It said, you know, because they knew, it said, like, they couldn't, they had to wait until they understood it And then they said they initially wanted to get money to fund so they could continue to research this.

And so it started out perfectly scientifically reasonable as far as just the purpose of it, and then it got I think that's the most realistic thing. That's the one time you're like, no, I get that. I'm going to go play the lottery. What was cool about it is what was really innovative. I would have loved to have seen this in a movie, another time travel movie that kind of handled it differently was just how their time travel device was this box.

That you just sit in. That's kind of interesting. It does kind of make it seem all the more believable and grounded in reality, but it kept on pursuing it trying to be, like, you know, just explaining, like, how it can work. Like, I keep going back to this map. I'm looking at.

I mean, I've looked over it. This one's a little bit easier to follow. It's, like, one that's, like, you know, it has pretty pictures. It's from the Wikipedia. It's from the Wikipedia, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I don't know where Beau got these. I read an interview with Kareth after I watched the movie. And in a way, it kind of made me more cynical about the movie. Because his whole idea, and I get what he was trying to do, But his whole idea is that by making the plot so obfuscated and really just feverish, is that he wanted to put you in the place of these characters in that there's been so many loops and so many different tangential things that they don't know what's up, and so he wants you to not know what's up either. But the problem is, like, you've seen those action movies that set these scenes, and it's like, you know there's action going on, but it's staged in such a terrible way that you can't tell people's relation to each other.

Yeah. This is like if a director made that on purpose. He doesn't want you to know what's happening in his own movie. And even though if he has this slight critical justification for that, it doesn't come off. You know what I mean?

It's like because we're not the guy who directed the movie, we're clearly not going to know what makes the movie great to him and what's behind it. Because like I said, it's so specific. Like, how are you supposed to put it together? Because I think he thinks that's what's great about it. Yeah, exactly.

He's like, well, okay, maybe it's great to you, but, like, okay, it's great. Okay, but you have to tell me that. You know what I mean? That's the thing. I don't give him credit.

Like, Shane is a smart dude. And I'm watching this, and I'm like, he is actually talented. I think it looks good visually. I think he. is so meticulous about the way he wants to structure it and the way he wants to see. It moving through, I just don't like the way he does.

But I don't doubt him as a filmmaker, I just don't like this movie. There are other films that have that puzzle, like you do the math on what's going on behind everything, like the. Mechanics of it. But at the same time, movies like Charlie Kaufman or Terminator 2... You.

Know, but I feel like this was the shitty half... This was the... Yeah. No, like, you have to put, like, the time travel, the complexity of the time travel in, like, something like Synecdoche, New York. Like, how you're trying to.

That just boggles the mind, how you're trying to put together how everything, like, you know, works. Like, that could also be a diagram movie. But this, to me, was, like, the shitty half of a Charlie Kaufman movie. Like, without the. Interesting, like, human inside, without the story, without the characters, it was just the pure puzzle.

And I was just like, I can't follow this. Like, I just... Maybe, I mean, I'm totally shitting on it at this point. It wasn't that bad. I just want to ask a quick question.

Am I the only one who liked this? I didn't dislike it. I liked it at first. Like I said, the first half hour. Am I the only one who's okay with it?

I'll tell you something. I was super impressed with that. I think he may be. And that's when I read that he made this film for $ 7, 000. Yeah.

And the thing is, you can see it. I kind of got that mentality that he had to have had when he made that from scenes. In the movie. When they're at the beginning... when they're trying to figure out, they know. The things, they know the components that they need, but they don't necessarily have the money to get those components.

They need palladium, so they're taking it with their car. And I realized, like, that's the mentality they had to have to make this movie for $ 7, 000. They were, like, going to their mom's apartment and stuff. Like, that's cool. I did, like, a scene with the refrigerator.

I was like, we're not actually saving money if we're just buying a new refrigerator. That's another thing. I'll give them credit. That's what I would say for, like, filmmakers like independent filmmakers in particular know your limitations write what you can make and he did that like there's nothing that he wrote that you couldn't go out and be like oh I know where there's a storage lot that we can go do this in or we can work at my office it's fine so it's like he knew what he could do and he didn't write outside of that and from that angle it's. Good they did it on 16mm too which is really impressive that they were able to control the budget shooting on film.

Like that definitely at this point even in 2004 you wouldn't think they would have. Yeah Okay, can we talk about... I want to talk about paradoxes. Because I love time travel movies because I love shitting on them because I always get hung up on the paradoxes. Things like Terminator.

But the thing about those movies is that they realize that there's a paradox and they have fun with it. Like Looper, the scene where Bruce Willis is like, I don't want to talk about time travel. It's basically him saying to the audience, it's not important. Just have fun with the movie and. Go with it because time travel is a paradoxical thing that can't happen and But the fact that we have.

It in our movies, there's going to be these holes. Here's the thing that annoyed me about Looper, though, as far as that. You have movies like Terminator or Back to the Future that ignore the paradox, and that's fine. And then you have movies that... Okay, so one of the justifications for the grandfather paradox is the idea of alternate universes.

So has everybody seen Looper? Yes. Okay. So it starts out. Should we say spoilers for Looper?

You're aware that he was the time travel advisor on Looper, right? Yeah, that bothered me. Oh, is that why he has the thanks on IMDb? Yeah, I mean, I know, what's his name? Ryan Johnson took a, I mean, this was a This movie was a big inspiration for Looper.

It's well said. I had heard that he did second unit shooting for Johnson and they ended up cutting it all and that's why he's not credited as a director. Oh, wow. Which may or may not be true. I wonder if it was the Hong Kong stuff.

I don't know. The thing that bugs me about Looper is they introduced the idea of a multiple, of an alternate universe. Like when the main character goes through and then he goes back in time and then it's different. So it's like we've established, okay, the rules are that there's an alternate universe but then later... when they're chopping people's limbs off and all of a sudden the guy doesn't have a limb, they've introduced the paradox, they've solved it, and then they've ignored the fact that they solved it. The thing is, though.

I think that was just because it was really cool for them to be able to have something to write on his arm. But in an otherwise really entertaining and pretty smart movie otherwise, it just really bugged me and just... That they couldn't stick with one or the other, that they had to solve it and then ignore their own... I like... Yeah, that's true.

Like, it does kind of. There are parts where... Like, it has different versions of time travel. Like you said, it goes different ways on how time travel works. Especially with, you know, writing on the arm.

Like, that totally contradicts a lot. But, I don't know. Like, I just... And this comes down, I guess, to just, like, a personal... Because I.

Know that time travel is such a complex and crazy thing. You can never hope to have a complete, perfect understanding of it in a movie. You're just heading down a bad road there. There's just no point. I would rather see a movie that has fun with it and plays with different ideas of time travel and has a good story and interesting characters and does something kind of.

I mean. Just like, again, it goes– and I'm boiling it down to story. I'm not saying a movie can't do this because, like I said, this is definitely unique. There's never been another movie like Primal. This is its own thing.

But if I want to– I mean in terms of time travel, I would i would rather see it handled in a kind of cheeky kind of wink wink way like respecting it like you know not completely like just making it totally dumb because there are some dumb. Time travel movies um like uh The hot tub time machine? That's the perfect example. Time cop is scientifically accurate. Yeah, but I'm totally distracted by the hot tub time machine.

You're thinking about it right now, aren't you? Yeah. I was just going to make a side note. The interesting thing about the Terminator movies, think about in the first movie, if they had succeeded in killing Sarah Connor, then Skynet wouldn't be because it's in the second movie after they try to come back again, and Arnold gets killed, and then in the third movie, we find that they found the arm, and that's how they got the technology. Well, the third movie sucks.

I don't want you to say it. I'm going with the whole storyline here. And so if they had succeeded in killing Sarah Connor, they wouldn't exist. It's basically, it's the grandfather paradox that killed their own. I guess just that doesn't bother me so much.

It does. The Terminator 2 is just such a fun movie, I guess. I don't know. And you realize they're writing the rest of that story like 10, 15 years later when they're like, oh, we gotta keep these movies. I get bothered by plot holes in sci-fi movies when it's like, I mean, like something like, I mean, probably just didn't bother me so much, but like say, or like The Dark Knight Rises and movies like that where there's like these gaps in time.

It's just, and the the holes and problems come from kind of the filmmaking aspect or like, you know, how a certain character got from A to B and not like Inception, like it's dealing with dreams. It's like, okay, you know, you're making up your own thing. And time travel, like I can forgive some, you know, kind of shaky stuff when it comes to dealing with time travel or going to people's dreams, which are two impossible things. So it's like, okay, I can't fault that because you're already, you know, by... nature of. Having these included into the plot, you know, you're already asking for holes to show up anywhere, and I'll just, I'll ignore that, I'm willing to ignore that as long as it's fun.

So, but this was like, took the, the idea that this can happen, and here's the math behind it, and it's just, it's like, it's like explaining, and it just, it just, it, the, the, the tone was just kind of, I don't know, it was just, it had, it was just kind of. This complete, this, uh, we want you to buy into this kind of vibe. And I was like, but it's a time travel. I don't, it's, yeah. It's interesting.

I mean, it's an interesting concept. Like I said, I liked the device they use for time travel. It's very cool. But just the way it was. Handled was kind of alienated me, I guess.

I thought, Alan, it was really interesting when you said that you were frustrated by the logic behind Looper because. You thought that Shane Carruth, cares whatever his name is, should know better. He did not actually invent time travel. Exactly. It's like, he's the authority behind time travel.

He should have known better about the idea of the paradoxes. But he said technical words. That means time travel. But he, I mean, if he's purposefully sort of obfuscated all of this, I mean, we're a table of people that watch movies. This is what we do.

And I think that usually we don't find ourselves, like, totally confounded by what we've just seen. And if we are confused, like, I don't know. I just, I don't know. And this is where I start talking about Richard Kelly. I feel like he's one of these directors where there's a reason why he hasn't made a movie in almost 10 years.

And we'll see what this next movie is that's coming out in 2013. But he did a lot of stuff really well. He's been making movies in the last 10 years. He made The Box. The Box.

No, no, no, no. Not Richard. No, I'm saying like. His directorial debut, then he did other movies, and everyone was like, oh, yeah, you actually. Are bad at this.

The box had some cool kind of Twilight-like... No, the box is. It had bits. It sucked. It sucked.

Made no mistake. The box is a bad movie. But it does have, like, I mean, there's some, like, if they just took certain moments, fleeting moments from the movie, like, it has this creepy vibe. The music in it is really haunting. Franklin Jill is a really creepy kind of...

It would have made a good Twilight Zone episode. Yeah, it did make a good Twilight Zone episode. It was? Oh, well, okay. Even the movie's.

First half hour is the Twilight episode. And then, like, there's a whole other half hour of nonsense that goes on. Well, that's one of the boxes as well. It's like, you see the trailer and you think, like, oh, it's about they have to decide whether or not to push the button and And you don't realize, like, after half an hour, like, they push the button. Yeah, they just get on with it.

So it's like, oh, there's a whole hour left. What's going to happen? Exactly. It's like, well, here's some portals. And it's like, what?

But here's the thing. Okay, so I hated Donnie Darko. What? No, no, no. We're doing a whole Donnie Darko episode.

I'm just saying. Donnie Darko part two. And I've said this before, so I know I'm just repeating myself now. But I watched the movie. I watched it in the theater.

I didn't know anything about it when it started at the Langley Theater. I went to see it opening day and walked out and was like, okay, either I'm really dumb or that movie didn't make any goddamn sense. And so I went home, and I got on the internet, because that's what you do. And I was told that he had actually created this book that was the book in the movie, and that it did actually explain all of this, and that there was a website, and if you navigated the website, then you would get to the. Book, and it would unlock the book.

So I tried to navigate the website, and... That was impossible. And then I find out that the book isn't a book, it's a pamphlet, and that the pamphlet basically says, time travel can happen because time travel. And I was like, wait, what? And so I think sometimes these directors make these movies.

That are sort of smug in their. i'm. Smarter than you and i'm gonna make this movie that makes you feel like you don't understand but really i'm just kind of throwing a lot of. Shit at the wall i don't think necessarily it's like a matter of smug like i'm better than you like you just certainly feel that way because they're so like already you know engineer aspect but like they're clearly interested in this like they want it like they want to show you this like they think you know this would be an interesting thing to show but i don't know like it's the thing. With fanny arco even if you don't like the movie you have to say along the way there's some really entertaining stuff that i feel like this movie.

Didn't have that's the same same thing. With interesting stuff in this. With southland tales it's a mess it's it's a it's at its basis a bad movie but there's so much really good stuff in it that i i i like it it's about five. Movies crammed into one right it is it is Just what. I want to say about Donnie Darko versus this movie is I feel like Donnie Darko is a movie that it's a puzzle that there's no solution for.

And once you kind of really, for a while, like you just get out of. The movie and you're intrigued for a minute. Then once you get, you figure out there's not really any way to figure it out, you get frustrated. Whereas this movie, you literally could dissect it frame by frame and figure it out. We have it right here.

And yet somehow. Like, the thought of doing that as opposed to, like, pondering over Donnie Darko is so, seems so much less interesting. Well, like, Donnie. Darko made that work for me. Like, it was so, like, it was kind of in love with the enigma of it.

Like, it knew that it was kind of this fractured and it had this humanistic. Kind of vibe. Like, you know, it was very, like, it was very fragmented and it kind of knew, like, this movie is, like. Trying to blueprint this is how it works. And, like, Donnie Darko, I feel like didn't, I mean, there is, like, I mean, like I said, the director does have his own theory on, like, you know, how brilliant it is or whatever.

I mean, it did totally recognize or present it as this kind of enigma that's hard to understand. Like, it recognized that, you know, we don't know quite what's going on. But this movie's, like, so literal. It's like, Primer's, like, as if the dude from Pi, the movie Pi, tried to make a movie about time travel and tried to. Prove it so hardcore.

Like, I was like, dude, you're just, this is pointless. Like, just don't. I don't know. Yeah, well, let's talk about the difference between procedural writing and creative writing. Donnie Darko, there's time travel aspects of it, but it's art more than it is procedural.

Whereas this is, you. Have four engineers that wrote this and they just filmed it for as cheap as possible. That's all this is. They wrote something that to them makes complete sense. engineering wise and then they just filmed it and they said well no it's in there you just have to dissect it well i don't do large math problems so i'm not going to do this whereas with donnie darko i can at least appreciate the art and like wow that was a great shot there's none of that in this as far as i'm concerned there's no. He's competent but and again actually i think he looks more promising because the trailer for his new and Visually, it looks pretty great.

I take that back. Some of the shots with the garage door opening and closing and they bring in and come out, that was good. I like the little window when they go in the room and they're explaining and shooting through the window. Some of that's good. He's got skill.

I think he just didn't have the basics to make an entertaining movie at this point. I'm really interested to see that new movie. It got some pretty positive reviews at Sundance Live. It's an upstream color and it's got Amy Simonson. Who we haven't shown, is really, really cool.

It sounds like it's still fairly similar in terms of sticking to that procedural track. It sounds very complicated. But it's dealing with. More biological aspect versus physics-based. Just the trailer looks complicated.

So I don't think he's strained from this basic idea but it looks a little more artistic now that there's probably somebody putting some money. Behind it I wanted to talk about a 2007 Spanish language film called Time Crimes which I think is very similar to this I wouldn't be surprised if the director of Time Crimes had seen Primer. But makes choices that I think make it a much more enjoyable I. Don't love it as much as most people that get into it, but I do think it's a lot more entertaining than Primal. But mainly just that they totally eschew any attempt to explain how this time machine came into being.

The Spanish guy lives on his house. There happens to be a scientific facility that's inexplicably in his backyard. He stumbles into a box, goes back in time an hour. Things happen. There's a guy in a mask who turns out to be him.

Then it turns out there's, like, Spoiler alert. Spoiler alert. It's very much a who does what. It's satisfying in that you grok it as it goes on. It does make sense.

It holds your hand, though. It gives you the things that you need to know when you need them. And that's all I ask. If you're going to show me something and then I'm going to come back and see it later, first show it. And I need to know that it's.

Kind of important to be seen. There's an element of sadism to Primer that if you can't sign up for it. And it's a very knowing sadism. Like, he knows. Like you.

Said, he's manipulating you to the point that you are as confused as he can. I kind of admire that, though, in a way. It's just like, fuck, this is how I'm getting... You can't keep up, and fuck you. This is my time travel movie.

Again, that's what I said. To fully realize it's definitely the movie... wanted to make like for sure i. Respect him as a filmmaker i just don't like the movie. That's like by the end i was like in the first time i'm still kind of like wait and then they did what and then afterwards i did sit down and map it all out and figure it out and by the end i'd watched it like twice in the last day and i'm like okay i pieced it together i get the story i do understand it makes sense i see how he went there and i've got the whole thing mapped out and you know what i still don't care that's the end of the day it's like after i do all this work I'm. Still not invested in it.

That's what I've seen with the one guy flying away at the end. You're like, well, I don't even know who you are. Which version are you doing? Or the one that walks out the door when the two are at the end. You're like, yeah, okay, now maybe that guy's more important than this one.

None of them are important. That's the problem. Because there's no humanity. There is. It's just an exercise.

The reason I'm... Ben, you were talking earlier about kind of criticizing him for taking the idea too seriously because it's time travel and, you know, it's... It's actually really interesting if you read some deeper scientific literature about the actual physical possibilities of time travel and how that might work because we think of time as being linear. It's a pamphlet. It's Kelly wrote.

Again, I totally get where you're coming from. I know, I mean, you're talking about science. This is a movie. But there's a difference for me. I mean, I think you like this movie from the standpoint of Like you were saying, it's an exercise.

Like it's very– like it definitely does kind of enlighten you in terms of the– like what was the book you were going to– what was the name of the book? What book? Sorry. I thought you were going to mention a book. I mean I wasn't going to mention a book, but there is a book called– Oh, okay.

Which if you bring it up. How did you know that? There's actually this really interesting book called Physics of the Impossible. It's by Michio Kaku, and what he does is he takes various science fiction tropes, like force fields, laser and such, time travel, teleportation, intergalactic travel, and talks about the actual ways these might be possible somewhere in the future. The first section is maybe we might see this within a lifetime.

This is theoretically maybe possible, but we're not going to see it for a million years, if at all. It's a good book. I was going to say, that would be great as a book. It's a movie. My understanding of the science, the theory, is that While someday we probably will be.

We understand the physics of forward time travel. You just have to get in something going super fast and your time is going slower relatively for you than for the outside so you can travel in the future. My understanding is there's no theoretical basis for backwards time travel. It's absolutely impossible. So if you want to go that way then any sort of time travel plot period that involves backwards time travel is contrived so why even try and But there.

Are particles in deep space that have been observed. I don't know the exact scientific things about it, but I've not read just this one book. I've read about other things. There are things that go back and forth in a loop in space. There's a thing called the Feynman diagram, which I don't understand at all.

But there's a nice diagram if you look it up on Wikipedia. And it happens with particles in real life. I don't question the science involved. I think what I end up having a problem with is, again, the artistic angle. I think it's the story structuring.

Because I think the setup, even the first two-thirds of it, up until we get to the. Crazy looping around, it's not bad. It's slow, it's wordy, but that's all on purpose. He has a plan for that. What I start to really take issue with is the fact that It just doesn't have the basic structure that you need for the end of the movie to work.

Like the Granger character. Who the hell is he? We have a mention of him. We know who he is, but there's not near enough weight for him to just be thrown into the middle of it. We don't really see him.

He's there. He falls down. It just jumps from one thing to the other. I forgot all about that. This is a major point in the movie.

And what do they do with his body? They say that he's in the bathroom at one point. Nothing is mapped out on that. That's just bad story strength. That's not science.

Oh, and then the other two friends that they just have in the first scene and then just... We're not going to tell them about it, but we're also not going to show them anymore. They just had to work the rest of the week when they were shooting. And at the end where he makes mention about, well, maybe you can put them in the box and have doubles of them. It's just like, okay, so the guy has a thing for his wife and his.

I was really confused by that. I mean, just that last third of the movie, the Granger plotline makes no sense, but they just tie it up as quickly as they can and get it over with, and then never really even go. Back into it. And then the party plotline is so, like, again, it's barely mentioned in the beginning of the movie, and then it. Becomes the entire third act almost, centers around them.

And all this nonsense happens because they're going back to fix this party scenario. Why? Wait, that party they mentioned, why do we care? We don't know who this crazy ex-boyfriend is. They didn't elaborate on that.

We don't even. Know what's going to happen. They don't either. They just have a hunch that maybe that's what Granger was doing. So this entire thing spiraled out of control because maybe something, I don't know, about some character that we weren't introduced to.

There's so many problems. Kara spent two years editing this, and was so frustrated that at points he thought he would give up. So I'm wondering now, I'm wondering now, if that, you know, his little theory about, well, you need to feel like the characters feel, I'm wondering now if he just got to a point where, like, this is such a mess, I've over-edited to this point that there's no way I could ever make it make sense, so. Yeah, you weren't supposed to know that one. So then when he starts doing press, he's.

Like, I want you to be confused. Like I was when I was piecing this together. You could imagine a slowed, like, Schmeagle-like descent where he was like, they don't need to understand. It's okay. Man, are you hungry?

I haven't eaten since later this afternoon. What's up, you guys? What's up? I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I forgot it was in my pocket. It's Kara.

Yeah. How do cell phones work? If there's two duplicate phones and I call the same number. Do they both ring at the same time. Or is there.

Well, yeah, it's a radio signal. No, it's a network. The network checks each area. When it finds a phone, it stops ringing. It rings the first one.

This one's ringing. Right. So the one your double has in Russellville can't be right. I think we broke symmetry. Are you sure that's how cell phones work?

No. You feel all right? I feel fine. Do you? Yeah.

It's interesting watching it through a second time. You notice things that you didn't even notice before. Like at one point, she said they're fumigating in the attic. There are rats up there. You don't think anything.

Later, he's dragging his own body up there. That's what that is. There's hints. One thing that kind of bugged me the first time around, which I talked to the friend who recommended it to me five times, is the phone call thing. When they're in the hotel room, he gets the phone call, supposedly from his wife, and then later on, after he's moved back, he gets the phone call again, and they have the whole conversation about...

Which I like that. I like that, because. It's their scientist brain. They're like, wait, how does this work? That was one of the smarter parts of it but here's the thing my issue with that is like well here's a paradox like you've just cancelled something out and he said well but it may not have been his wife like he may be calling himself to give himself instructions because like earlier there's a scene where he like calls where he's in the house and he calls the cell phone and then like his cell phone rings at the same time, or he calls somebody, his cell phone rings at the same time, he hangs up really quickly.

He may have forgotten that the phone's right here, so that's going to ring. So there's little things like that that you don't even necessarily think about. It's something you have to watch over and over again. My first hint that there was something else going on was the repetition of the line. I think it's, oh, you know what they do with engineers that turn 40.

You have a scene where the two guys are talking and one of them says that. And then the guy says that. The engineer says it. And to me, I was like, that seemed like it happened backwards. And in hindsight, you were supposed to realize that he already knew that was coming.

And there are clues throughout the first half that are like that. But I just feel like he gives up on even that in the second half. Again, there's all these smart things in there. It's put together really well. It just doesn't make up for the fact that it's not entertaining by any I think it's well-structured.

From the science angle, just not from the storytelling angle. I think it's a good thing, though, that all the confusing... It gets really confusing after about an hour, and there's only 15 minutes more, so it could have been a lot worse if it's two hours long and the second half is just this huge cluster. The fact that it's only 15 minutes of clusterfuckery is okay. Yeah.

It's like it leaves you just a little bit, and it's quick and painful, and then it's done. And then you can think about it for a long time. And then you can be like, I don't have to watch that again, right? What did you do if you want to get it? No, I don't.

Or you can read the... I kind of wish I did. Danny's map. the weird thing is did anybody in an attempt to understand this go to the Wikipedia page and just read the entire plot outline because that is awesome after I watched it I went to see this diagram I was like wow because. It reminded me of Inception after I saw how they had that triangle diagram to explain everything I could not get that I'm just bad any kind of diagram used to explain a movie it's going to confuse me more By the. Time they get into that looping part, again, it makes sense.

But by the end, I'm like, I don't care. I will say, this is now a filmmaker that's on my radar. I think he shows a couple of things that are very promising here. He obviously knows how to do a lot with a very small amount of money. And if we can see a bit more artistic and more attention to actual character development in the future, I think he could put some good, strong stuff together.

I think he needs a good co-writer. That is experienced in piecing together the story, and yeah, I think. He even wrote the score for this film. I know. Literally, the IMDb is him, him, him, him.

I give him credit for putting together... And it looks good. I mean, aside from the film stock, the audio sounds good. I mean, to be shot. For $ 7, 000, everything about it technically is really good.

I mean, I give him credit for putting. Together a good independent film, but yeah, he just kind of needs work story-wise. I feel like it works, especially in the dark scenes. You can see it. I'm okay with that.

It also feels... I mean, it's supposed to be very real world. And it feels like... You feel like you're sitting in the kitchen with those people. Yeah, I love all the...

I mean, it does feel very real. And I think the aesthetic where... He. Goes for an over. Like, he uses a lot of fluorescent lighting that I think is...

If it weren't for the film stock, in some parts it could have just come off as bad lighting, but he manages to sell it as the aesthetic. In a way that I think is like, alright, I like what you did there. It was what he was going for, but at the same time it was probably also there. Yes. It's a little of both.

It's enough to where you give him the benefit. Of the doubt. I have something else nice to say about him. I thought it was refreshing that this is an actor, director, writer that didn't write himself a completely gratuitous love scene with. A sexy young co-star.

So, good for you. That's a different thing. It might have been one with one of his past selves at some point. Like two of them in the same box together or something like that. Well, they did make.

Those jokes about them coming and going out of the. view hall area. Staying in the garage all day. Maybe there was a love scene that. Got cut out. But I was already thinking that too.

That looks kind of creepy going into a storage facility every day. I had two thoughts about the phone. How big was that phone? It was 2004. I know it was 2004 but that looked like my handset from my house.

Not a cell phone. I don't know. Cell phones have come around and they're giant. Right. Because now it's a computer.

Right. But that was a little, it looked like, you know. It should have been a flip phone in 2004. Right. It didn't look like a cell phone.

And the other thing, I think, you know, I started piecing all of this together. They wanted to, you know, there were some young guys, engineers working in their garage, working on new technology. They were trying to get it out to people. They had developed something. They thought it was going to make people more efficient.

Right. And improved their lives and greatly improved their lives. They started wearing earphones in their ears. They weren't efficient anymore. Their lives fell apart trying to keep up with the technology.

They looked like douchebags with the earpieces in their ears, and then their minds started melting. I think they were just iPhones. It had nothing to do with time travel. Their lives were being ruined by the first iPhone. I do like when the one guy's like, you look like a secret servant.

That is not acceptable attire. To be just walking around with an earpiece. Because in 2004, people didn't wear those everywhere. Now, it's commonplace, so... just had both in and they were going everybody then it would seem normal because i do that as much as i can but. I just i think it's interesting like in this point the like movie is so there's no happy ending at all because like even in the diagram it's just like now you pretty much just have to live to go in the box you know it's like there's no happiness it's like you might be able to make money but there's no point we're ever going to be able to get away from.

It or maybe you go back in time far enough that you keep it from ever happening and And then you're not even conscious that it happened. So happy ending! There's your paradox. How do you go back in time to stop it from happening, and then there's nobody to go back in time? I think I would have liked the film from the other two guys' perspective, now that I think about it. . .

That's the Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are dead version. They're like, well, you think they're screwing us over? No, they wouldn't be. That's not a deal. They've got like.

Six packs going right now. They're screwing us over. I know it. He's had his place bug-bombed like eight times. I don't know about this guy.

Oh, well, let's just. Go to that party. Party on a Monday. Who throws a party on a Monday? You mentioned Triangle earlier.

Brian, you've seen it. Marlena, you've seen it, right? Yeah, we did an episode on it. 2005 was Bermuda Triangle. It was right around the same, because that's the thing.

It's a really good companion piece to Time Crimes. To Time Crimes. Because I saw them within a few months of each. Other, and I like Triangle a little better. Again, Time Crimes is fun.

Triangle is so. Giant in the way that it approaches all of the stuff, and yet keeps it really fun. It's not perfect. It's got holes. It's a time travel movie.

Well, not time travel. It's got a lot of stuff. It's pretty tightly put together. Like, by the time you get to the end and start piecing stuff together, you're like, oh. Is it, like, super serious, or.

Is it more fun? Like, what kind of. No, it takes itself pretty seriously. But... when you're watching it, you kind of have fun. It's a different angle.

Yeah. It's not a scientific time travel movie. It's more like a supernatural. It just happens upon time travel. Um, did you see, uh, but when he runs around the corner and he sees the guy behind the house had fallen.

Yeah. Did it remind you of that scene in triangle where she runs around the corner and she's the kind of the big, Oh, this really is happening reveal. Because, like, you see him, and I don't know if it's, like, trash bags in the back or something. Because it's dark. But I was like, is that, and that, and that.

It didn't remind me of that, but I like that scene better, if it helps. Yeah. If I saw that, I was like, is that where we're going with this? I got this, like, triangle moment of, if that's where we're going, this is going to be really good. And it didn't.

I can only find this movie on. Really? All I'm finding is Bermuda Triangle. I'll find it. You're just typing in a shape.

Spell the word. Do you know the director's name or anybody who's in it? Holy shit. We did a whole episode on it. Yeah, there's a whole episode.

I'll find it and send it to you. How's that sound? It has. Oh, God. Yeah, I know some of the people from other stuff.

All this is people go out on a cruise ship and get caught in a Bermuda Triangle. Oh, is it 2009 Melissa George Liam Hill? Yes. That's her. Yep.

Does it call it Bermuda Triangle? No, it's just trying. It's not on Insta. Oh, it's not? It was at one point.

It's worth finding. Yeah, it's worth waiting a couple of days for to get the disc. At least you. Can just drive to Pittsburgh to see it, I guess. Yeah, that's the other option.

We'd just like to send you on a road trip. Lights to drive. That's what I was born to do. It's my frustrated destiny. You should get a truck and just make money while you're at it.

It. No, that's the thing. No, I really am supposed to be a long haul truck driver. All my spouse has made to that. Unfortunately, I have parents that worry.

But you'll have a cool truck and you can put a rubber duck on the front of it and it'll. Be never mind. You get a flatbed and you are the food truck of movie theaters. Like, you just drive around, and then it's a movie theater, wherever you park for that night. That's pretty good.

I might want to get in on this, actually. I might want to get in on this, actually. I can go into the future and get money. Why did they dismiss the lottery idea so quickly? Because they can only do it once, he said.

Do it once 100 million. You're fine it's like that only lasts for a few months like and then you can invest. It yeah you could take that money and do a. Lot more stocks than they were doing already it's interesting Hey, guys, I know what you should do. Go get a sports almanac.

Go back and down. On a horse. And then start a whole casino. Anyway, there was a lot of moments I was like, this needs Doc Brown for God's sake. I know.

If he could have explained some of this. Well, he would have gotten out the chalkboard. And he would have shown us the parallel timeline we'd started. I just want a DeLorean. That's all there is to it.

Oh, the box is not as cool as a DeLorean. That's hard science. I don't care what you're talking about. I mean, if you're going to spend six hours in a box or six hours in a DeLorean, I'll take the DeLorean. 88 miles an hour, that's all I got to say.

Do we need to cover other things on this? Because by the end, I realized watching it, it may have even been the first time it occurred to me. By the time I got to the end, I'm like, I kind of need to use their own analogy against their movie. When they go into the whole story about how the US spends millions of dollars to make this pen that writes in zero gravity, and Russia uses a pencil. I was like, you've used so much time and effort.

To make this perfectly pieced together scientific explanation of everything. And the same weekend, I watched a dumb werewolf movie. And you know what? I enjoyed that one. So the pencil in the eye that is that werewolf movie that's very blunt and stupid, was way more entertaining and they did it really quick and really simple and, I don't know, they overcomplicated their own movie and they handled things like the U.S.

Government spends money. You know, I actually had one of those zero gravity space pins. My grandma ordered it for me when I was little and it wrote for like a day and then it just didn't work. It's true. It's crazy.

You can write under water with it though. I don't know what you're going to do with the paper. Whatever. Yeah. it still works. Oh, speaking of time travel movies, did anybody see, I guess you'd call it time travel, Love?

Oh, you know, I thought of you because you have a thing about movies about loneliness. Loneliness. And I thought that was about it, so how is it? I thought, I was like, this is going to be like Moon, but even better. I was like, this is going to be it, and it's crap.

Oh, really? Yeah. Is this the movie. That came out spelled L-O-V-E? L-O-V-E.

Oh, okay. He's an astronaut that's on a space station, and it When did this come out? Like in the last... Two years ago. Yeah, two years ago.

I thought it was by Angles and Airways produced it. It's like their video. It's like not even a movie. It's almost more like a music video with some movies on it. I should just take it off my instinct, too.

I mean, is it worth checking out? Watch Moon again? I still want to see Castaway on the Moon. No, definitely watch that one first. That's one of my favorite movies I saw last year.

It's not silly. It deals with a lot of. This was probably my favorite movie that I saw last year. It's a lot of. About loneliness, about.

It deals with a lot of humor and sadness at the same time. It's much better. It earns. Everything that Cast Away never earned, it earns in that movie. So it's good.

Yeah. It's good. Cast Away on the Moon, Korean film. Watch that one. Yeah, the trailer also didn't have subtitles, so I had no idea what they were saying.

I just saw, like, Korean people, like, yelling at each other and then laughing and then splashing in the water. Well, yeah, watch the subtitles. Or watch it with subtitles. Yeah. Obviously.

Yeah. All right. Have we looped around on this thing enough? Yeah. I think, again, I guess I was disappointed because so many people had told me how great this was that I went in really expecting to like it, and I have.

So many issues with it that, yeah. I understand why it has a cult following, but it's not my cult. Not my cult. I respect it, but I didn't like it. Well, we do want to thank Chris for sitting in with us again this week.

Thanks, guys. Go ahead and plug your stuff. Get it out there. Sure. We do a film show on Crescent Hill Radio.

It is called Surreal Film. We air on Sundays at 1 p.m. We have new episodes posted online before that every Wednesday. Check us out via. Our Facebook page, which is facebook.com slash surrealfilm.

That's S-U-R-R-E-E-L-F-I-L-M. Thanks so much, guys. No problem. Movie geeks got to stick together, so we'll see. Whatever we can do together, I'm all for it.

Otherwise, that about does it. We will return next week, same geek time, same geek feed, and thanks for listening. Can only light the way to lead you from the garden of the dark. Stay out of shadows now. Looks like the change is on.

Tomorrow's never gone. Today just never comes. You're running, jumping. Into the hurricanes. It's only there to exorcise your name.

Looking at the world when you open up your eyes. You've got to. See promises they've made. They're bloody lies and broken dreams. Your silence screams.

Can choose just who you are someone that you've never seen somewhere you've never been you're living in What are you going to do when every part of you just needs to catch that wind? And the fire of burning yesterdays cannot last. Nobody cares just where you go. Take it where. You've never been.

Make it for somewhere. You don't know. Living in a time machine. Why do you stay who you are? Be what you've never been.

Someone you'll never see. I think I would keep a copy of this, but I'm never going to look at it again. I'm giving it to my friend. I'm never going to. I'm going to go.

Actually, can I have the person that I watched it with today eat this? By the end, I'd... gone through it enough. I was like, I get it. If I would have seen this before I watched it, I would have said, yeah, fuck that. This episode is a production of Movie Meltdown, produced and edited by the Auditude Studios, with opening music performed by the Empires.

For more on how to sponsor or support the show, Email producer at MovieMeltdown.com. Talk hard!