184. Novice Nyads (and intense women)

Weird, weird. I'm come with me. The same wave is always green there and some body oakes's leg. You dream more about God, bring up there, but that is a big mustay, and just not get the worlds all around you right here on the ocean floor. Such wonderful things all around you.

What long is you looking for? Hello, and welcome to another episode of The Feminine Critique. I'm Emily, I'm Christine. And this is one of those episodes where we're doing that thing that we initially figured we'd do as a podcast, which is where we talk about two movies. We're doing it and the.

Last time we talked we went over do you remember the topic? It was movies on boats? Movies on boats. So it was very nautical, it was very quet and it just put me in a mood. I guess I didn't want to get out of the water.

Around that time, I joined a gym, mostly so that I could use the pool and swim, and so I was just like suddenly in like a swimmy mood. I'm like, you know, I kind of want to rewatch Naiad because I really liked it and I want to watch it again, and I really wanted Christina I don't wonder if Christine's watched it yet. Wait a minute, why should do an episode? Oh, there's that other movie about swimming that Christine always recommended to me. That's also about an intense woman in the water.

And then I watched it and realized it wasn't actually about swimming, it was about rowing. But that's okay because they are such a good pairing. And what's the other movie, Christine. The Novice, Yes, starring Isabelle Furman. In case there's multiple novices.

Out there, Well, there are probably many novices, as we know, there aren't many Naiads, but we know there are a lot of novices technically, but there is only one is Belle Furman. Well we'll get there. Yeah, I think I'm gonna have more to say about one than the other. I have so much to say about both. These are movies.

Both of these we are going to, I think, go into a whole dig of detail. And I mean they're like, they're not really that spoilered movies, especially Niad, which is like it's based on. So much true story, so it's it's there. But still we're gonna go into a lot of detail because I think I don't know I have kind of I was shocked by how strong my feelings were on both of these watches, and it just I think both of them hit me at like a particular time in life, which I mean is like you know now where I just realized like, oh this. These are movies about women that very much speak to me in different ways, and they have a lot in common.

Just again, both on the water, both about very intense, determined women who are not necessarily the most likable bells of the ball that you would want to spend time with. Both queer movies in different ways. Just exciting, too exciting movies. I think Naiads on Netflix and Novice is also on Netflix. I think maybe is it.

I'm not sure where. I'm definitely on a streamer. I am pretty sure right now it's Netflix. It's moved a lot of times. It was on Hulu for a while.

I believe right now it's there. But either way, both of these are findable, rentable, all of that, and I. Am a big fan of both, so I might have watched it on Canopy honestly, so it might be. It might be right Canopy. It is definitely on Canopy.

Yes, I think the TV I was on had access to Netflix and not Canopy, so I watched it that way. But you are correct. It is around though, yes, point yes. And nia it's twenty twenty three and the novis twenty twenty one, so kind of closely made together. The twenty twenties are the era of determined women athletes in the water.

Has that? I guess? So? Yeah, I guess that's what the twenty twenties will be known for. Let's hope.

You know we've got We've got five years left. I feel like we could do this. We could keep cranking out these kinds of movies. There are other sports on the water, right, There is I don't know, like sailing, there is triathlon. There's other ways we could we could make this happen.

Ri stand water polo? Isn't that the watery? Oh my god? A water polo movie could be Has there been a water polo movie? I don't even know what water polo is?

Is it? Are they on horses? No? Not no, but I wish, Oh my, now I am picturing like seahorse water polo and it's adorable. Well, right, isn't that what the child's brain wants to make?

Water polo? If you know what polo is. It makes perfect sense. Water polow is really weird, if you It is one of those sports that I think is very not cinematic. It's funny because we were I'm so, we have the TV on the other day and beach volleyball was on, and I'm watching it.

I'm like, you know, the thing about like I get, like you know, from many people, the appeal of beach volleyball is that it's women wearing very tiny clothing, which I get, and they're hot and they're athletic and it's amazing. But the thing about beach volleyball, I'm like, I think beach volleyball is the most cinematic of any sport because I can see. That because I've actually, I've actually watched a decent amount of beach volleyball for not nefarious purposes. But like I grew up much like you, in the time where sometimes the Olympics would just be. On yep, especially in the summer.

Yeah, and there are just some things that I could not hang with, like even being in the room with. But I have seen a fair amount of beach volleyball because it's it's exciting to watch, it's. So exciting at moves really fast. Every single interaction is a point, so it's going everything matters, and I think the actually the way because it is a fairly small by some standards of space. You could see everything always like you.

You know, you can cut to different angle, but it's all in view. You understand what everybody is doing. And it's not a sport you have to learn, whereas the sports of today, I think are very different. On the movies we will be talking about. You can't remember how I got to beach volleyball, but there was a point there somewhere, which is.

We love it. It's great. Yeah, yes, the best sport. There are beach volleyball movies. There is one, and it's killing me that I can't remember the name.

Married with Clickers discovered it and it's it's a Brian Austin Green beach volleyball movie where he plays impact Point. Okay, impact Point is great. So there is a beach volleyball movie. I don't know if there's a water polo movie. Oh, so water polo it's like they're all very tall people and they are in like a six foot pool or so, so they can't really touch the bottom of it.

So they're like waiting the entire time they have to float. They're constantly like you can't see me coming non video, but they're like their little hands are like flapping back and they look a little chickens like they're hands are flapping back and forth. They are wiggling their legs to stay above water. And then every now and then they are hitting the ball. But it's not like fluid because they're passing it.

It's not like basketball where it's constantly moving and you're moving with the ball. No, you have to throw the ball. You can't hold it for more than two seconds. You should not sit to somebody else. Then you spike it.

It's weird. It's not cinematic at all. It sounds volleyballish. I guess maybe I've seen people do that, but I just thought they're playing volleyball in the pool. Yeah.

No, that's that's water polo with sadly without horses. Why'd they call it that? Look, this is at Guadipolo cast. But I do have a lot of questions. No, I think we need to change the whole mission of this show.

Let's change the format. That's right, It's gonna last very long because I don't think there's much to talk about. Well, in two. More years we'll get get a summer Olympics, so you know that's when we're gonna. Shine nice, all right.

So Naiad, directed by Jimmy Chin and Elizabeth chall of Uzzer Helly, apologize for that. They I believe our had I think this is their first like narrative film. They were documentary filmmakers who did what was it? Was it free free solo? Yeah?

I saw that in there because I went and looked. Obviously, this is like clearly a movie with a budget with two names unfamiliar to me. So I'm gonna go and look you. I would say their backgrounds aided them quite a bit, and the filming of. This movie, I I would agree, Why don't you tell everybody what this movie is about?

So this is apparently about a lady named Diana and Naiad who used to swim across large bodies of water. I knew nothing of this. And then she was gonna do this really like big deal one key West to Cuba or vice versa, I don't remember. But then it didn't go well like at all, and she was I think twenty eight, and then she was like not packing it in, didn't go well, then decides at sixty she's gonna do it, which seems like a strange time to do it. There were a lot of years between twenty eight and sixty for her to decide to do it, but she didn't until she was sixty.

Yeah, and that's where this movie picks up, essentially, So if you have no idea who this person is, like I did, it picks up when she's sixty deciding to do this and then going out to do this. But there's a lot of and look, I read some reviews, some people have mixed feelings on this. A lot of old archival footage of this actual stuff. So if you didn't know what happened back when she was, you know, twenty eight, trying to do it the first time, there's a lot of context provided for you. I found it helpful and I thought it grounded it in a really nice reality.

I agree. I think the this is where I didn't even think about it. But you're right about the whole Like these being documentary filmmakers who understand how to work with a lot of different footage. Yeah, you could tell it. Yeah, they seamlessly kind of put there so there's flashback elements that are obviously created for the film, but then any of her actual like athletic pursuit, yes worthy archival footage was her.

And then there's interview stuff I don't know for me that like added to it that might agree hair in a way that without it I might have had trouble connecting. You know. Yeah, And I. Never felt like, oh, I'm watching a different actress do this, because I mean that like any movie where you're doing a flashback, right, you have either done one of two things, you have either cast somebody young or especially now, you are doing that creepy digital d age thing, which is uncanny and weird and I hate it. So I didn't want them to take and at Benning and like, Okay, we're gonna smooth out all of her wrinkles and have her as a twenty eight year old.

Like, no, this works perfectly because we see Naya. Then the end of the movie does the thing that I think a lot of like based on true stories, movies do that I always find funny, which is the I forget. I think it's Leam Bibiani who said this first of the like, look how good our wigs were montage where at the end it's like, here's the real people and you're like, oh, wow, they really look like them. Or they didn't. But it doesn't because I think you see it in the beginning.

That doesn't bother me at all. And it does make sense that look. And Neette Benning is in her sixties. We're not gonna see her in her twenties doing this, but yet we have footage. Why not use it?

And we know it's a movie, it's fine. We also it's a net Benning like. I think that's the other thing. It's it's these aren't unknowns like and in my joy in this movie is is Jodie Foster. Jodi Foster?

Jodi Foster in this movie the entire movie, I'm watching it like, and it's not that Jodi Foster can't be a chameleon, but Jodi Foster is a movie star. Disappears, she disappears. And in this movie, though, what I love about it is I the entire movie I'm watching this, It's felt like True Detective in that way where I'm like, I never forgot this was Jodi Foster, but it was like I have never seen Jody Foster do this, and there is something about her performance in this movie. I think because it is so gay that it feels like Jody Foster is cutting loose and having fun and like has found this like inner like kind of magic of this character in what she's doing. Yeah, I I both of them obviously, Andet Betting and Jodi Foster are fantastic.

Every time I see Annett Betting, I have to remember how good she is. I don't know why. It's just I have that experience with her, and like I do stand by. I think for me, Jody Foster disappears, but not in the way where you're like, this is a transformative performance, but in the way where you're like, well, this is just who Jodi Foster is. Ben right.

It feels like the most natural performance I've ever seen, But I don't know that it is. It just it feels that way. No, No, that's that's like Zach and I we watched it together and there was a moment where I was like, I have to keep reminding myself that this isn't just Jodie Foster hanging out, that she's making choices and this is acting, because it feel it felt very lived in and very natural, and same with an at Betting though too. So when you had them both together, it's like, are these two just two people talking? Like it's just two people having a discussion.

It's not. It didn't feel like a movie, which I think added to that whole, like and now here's some real footage. Yeah, and because it's not, especially in an At Benning's case, it's not that like they're playing very normal people like I think, I mean, Jodie Foster is, you know, the more kind of grounded character, and Jodi Foster is a Naiad's best friend and then coach or treat and but it's it's a j Jody Foster, and this is a little bit more grounded as a person, whereas Naiad is this larger than life like an Et Betting is is doing such work. In this movie. And like I mean, there's a physical aspect because you can tell she can put in the hours and and did the training and did this.

To her body. But also she is something that I think Benning has done a lot in her career and I haven't. I don't know they put it together until now she can play an asshole and so a glorious. Asshole in this movie. She's a lovable asshole.

But she's an asshole. Yep, yeah, one hundred percent. She's deeply unlikable yep, like really unlikable. And and I think that's I mean, it's we all know it, Like it's the point of the movie to r I and I will say that I never it was never enough to be like, well, I'm just not interested in going along with this because I think all of the really air quotes bad behavior is uh, super justified or understandable. And every time you're like, and I don't know if you felt this way, but every time it was like she this needs to stop, Like this is ridiculous.

At this point, there would be some ridiculous thing about like like autonomy and like aging and like and you know, like yeah, fuck, who cares, Just. Go do it? Just do it? Yeah, yeah, No, That's why I think this, Like, when this movie came out, it was very it was positioned very much as kind of like big oscar this that, and the reactions to it sort of like ebbed and flowed because I think a lot of people took it as a very traditional sports narrative, very feel good, very that. But I think it's so much deeper than a lot of that because this, yeah, ultimately, like spoiler alert, she does it right.

It's the every every up and down like it does lead to a final up and a final Uh. It was the friends I made along the way type type understanding. But throughout that like, you're exactly right like you And again, how many movies about men doing this have we seen? Like that's the whole thing about male athletes is that usually they are also terrible people. And but with this, like you're right every time you are rooting for her to do this, and you are also thinking, now, she should get out of the water.

But I mean there's a moment early on that kind of the first because the third character we really should discuss is I can I don't know how to say his name. How do you say this, this lovely British man's name. Uh, it's Fond's I think it's if that's who the man is that I'm thinking of. Yeah, yeah, I'm pretty sure that's how you say it. You know, I'm not known for my pronunciation.

So he is the navigator, right, and he is a like a Florida guy, a boat guy, very kind of salt of the earth, and he is you know, basically a key element in getting this done because there's there's her swimming this ridiculous amount of time, but he is the one who is saying which way to go and how fast they have to go and all that, and there's you know, and early on where Jodi Foster is, because Jodi Foster and him are sort of you know, the kind of bubble around Naiad and they have this like great moment where they kind of get together and like Jody Foster is kind of explaining like, look, this is crazy, this is insane. I can't believe she's doing this. And yeah, she's not the best person in the world and she's a pain and they asked to be around.

But my god, like, do you understand how cool it is to be a part. Of this Like that just for me, that gives me the chills. Yeah, it it. This is this felt and this is like a compliment, not like a takedown, but it felt very much like a like a buy the book script in that regard, Like every time there was like it's it was almost like a call in response of like why the hell, right, this is why? Or what are you?

This is why? Like yeah, every time it would answer it and yeah, it's kind of like this is because they say it over and over again, like nobody's getting paid. There's no money, where do it for love of the game essentially, so the movie never lets you forget the stakes, I suppose is kind of what I'm saying. And I think that's important for something like this because it if you did, it would just be like this pointless dalliance to to like boost this person's ego, but like it was bigger than that. And I and I will say the thesis of the movie is t mark.

That was a little like cringing. Yeah, but I do understand that even though this is based on a true story and based on a person's we'll talk about the book thing. But you do need again, like because it is a script for a movie, you need a payoff, you need a resolution. And if we all know that she was able to do it, like if you because you might know that going. You know she's alive, you know it was news.

They like, so she she did it, So having there be like an additional secondary background payoff of like, you know, I learned that it's not just me, and you might want to say that, well, that feels really convenient for the wrap up of this movie. But then when you watch at the end, they have her some speaking engagement or whatever, and she literally says that, Yeah, it's like that is truly what she fucking learned from this. So yeah, hackey or not, it's it's a realistic representing. And I think her like her career outside of swimming was like motivational speaker. Yeah, yeah, she was somebody that like a corporate office or like a conference would hire to come be the keynote speaker and like, and you see a little bit in the movie where she's doing like slide shows and it's kind of used to effect of like showing how when she's sad, but it really like and that's something good to me is always fascinating because I'm again I'm a big, like specific athlete fan, and I think of and I know all the work involved in what they do, and then then you realize, like, but the actual elite level of getting paid to do that is so so yeah, what do you do for work?

And and your career window is usually so short, So it's always interesting to see, like, oh, athletes in like how do they manage? And with Niad, the fact that because she is so. Bullish and arrogant and egocentric, and I mean, and again, I something I love about the movie is the movie is absolutely agreeing that she's an asshole. Yeah, and the movie it's not the case. And this, I mean, we talk a lot about these, the exhaustion of movies about great men, right because you're watching your like, but you're just a jerk, like, and it's not entertaining to watch a guy be awful.

But yet he was a really good physicist, so we're gonna give himn oscar like and with this, like it's yeah, she's a jerk, and the movie knows that. And even the way. Like she constantly will talk about her the origin of her name and what it means, and it's used to very very funny effect, like every time it starts, like after the first time, you realize, oh no, every character knows when she's off on this Oh no, she's going too that zone and like yes, and it is like screenwriting one oh one to have that tie up at the end where she kind of has a moment of realization of like, that's not even my name, Like it's bullshit. And yes, So I was wondering because you brought that up. Did you read the Are you familiar with the You did.

Not read the book. I know a little bit about the I know enough to know that there's a lot of like the details of this and even the actual swim was ultimately like not registered as official because of some data stuff, and who know, Like I know that much, but I but what else can you tell me? What else did you want? I didn't learn anything. I was more asking.

I thought that that was a wild choice. So she does the thing where she she does like, my my last name is Naiad and it means this water nimph thing, and that means that I'm the only one that can do this, and like to the point where it's obnoxious. Yeah, And then I would say, like we're almost we're almost done with this fucking movie. We got like maybe a quarter of it left. And she just decides to tell us that that's not even her like last name from birth, not that that necessarily matters to this, but like it's just such a revelation and it's like so laughable, and I wanted I was so curious where she tells you that, like in the narrative of the book, if she waited that long to tell you in the book, because it's fucking it's stellar.

It's so it's it's shocking, it's funny, it's enraging, but it's also like understandable because it's like she built this, this this mythos up out of nothing, even it's not based in truth, but like it doesn't make it any less real to her. I know, it's very interesting. Well, and I love it because there's that other side of it of like for an athlete like this particular, particularly when it is a like singular sport, right it's on a team sport and the sort of like pro wrestler persona that you end up taking on And it doesn't happen to everybody, but I think part of it is once you become famous and you're not really equipped to be famous, and so you kind of have to you know, sound bites start turning into you know, the media starts turning into something that it.

Makes sense that you would like. And again I think the whole her dad or her stepdad like saying like this is this is your name, this is what you were born to do. I think that is accurate. I think she has talked about that and the and it makes sense that you would then like put this armor on, especially when you learn in the movie and something that I also think is kind of handled, Like I think it is important and I think it's probably something that connects to a lot of people, but I think it's a little clunky in the movie, which is that these other flashbacks where you learn that her like for like real coach sectually abused her, and so there's like these elements of sort of her swimming is sort of like, I don't know that it's a safe place, but like this is where she is in charge, this is where she can do this.

And when she gets out, she also has to give interviews. And become like a celebrity to do endorsements because you've got to pay for all this stuff somehow. So I don't know, I'm I that to me is always fascinating of these sort of masks you have to wear, because I think the flip of that. I think this comes up a bit in the next movie we'll talk about is I Am again. Most of its figure skating, right, I'm a huge figure skating fan.

I watch everything about it, I read everything about it. And one of the most. Fascinating things to me is when like you will watch an incredible program. You will see the sort of like packaged like documentary about how hard they work, and you watch them train and then they give an interview right after, and usually it's like they're off the eye, so they're out of breath and it's like, what were you thinking about when you landed that axle? And they're like in the highest, like chirpiest voice you can imagine, I just wanted to do a good job for my country.

Like rarely do they have interesting things to say because their work and fucking heart, they're training a lot, they're exercising a lot. Some of them are very well read and very interesting and this. But like, also, you don't have to be like you are putting all of your energy into this thing that requires a different hype of thing, and it often makes you a very uninteresting person. So the idea that you would put on this sort of you know, mascot type thing, to. Me makes perfect sense.

And I like that. Like, in some ways, Niad is a very dull person, right, we see her at a party and she's insufferable. But in the other way, it's like, oh yeah, but you have to nobody is like her. Yeah, there is an element of like, it's interesting because it really tests your i don't know, patience with the character or just patience in general, because it's it is objectively fucking obnoxious to have kind of an obnoxious person tell you over and over again how great they are and how they're the only one that can do something, and then when you find out that that's kind of true though, it's like wow, and I'm gonna be so for real right now, that is kind of uncommon and I don't want to gender it, but like, it's really uncommon for somebody to be so fucking loud telling you that they can do something and then they actually literally are the only one that can do it or they are the best.

It is a strange thing to kind of to deal with as an experiencer of this, you know, experience for being shown because you want to be like, okay, lady, you're sixty three, get out of the water. If you get sung by another jellyfish, you're gonna straight up die. All of these people are putting all of their free time and energy into coddling you and what you want to do, and then you're like no, but actually she kind of was right, she's the only one that can do this, and everybody's band around her to help her. Yeah, it's it's tough to balance. It's a complex story, I guess.

Yeahh Now, in some ways, did you see tar. Uh? Yeah? I did, okay right when it came out. I might not remember it.

Okay, because I watched it not a couple of months ago, And there's like I realized I was thinking a lot about it this watch of it, And because it's like a similar in some ways, like there's another kind of tie in there where it's a like a woman who has done things that nobody else has it or can do, and how much do you forgive a lot like let go when you see how good they are at something, but when you also realize, you know, maybe they're not the best person. And it's very different into our right, like yeah, she's actually an abuser in different ways, whereas a Nayad, like she's just a jerk, right, Like, at least from the movie. From the story we see of Nayad, it's just that she is kind of a bad friend.

She is just not a great person. But she's also you understand why, like you you'd want to be around her like you, you know, you would, especially if you were somebody like Jodie Foster in this movie, like you would feed off that energy. That energy would thrill you and fulfill you. And like I get it so much. Yeah, definitely it and it's it's there's a there's a bit of it that's annoying.

It's annoying that she's right and it's true and and and then it's then you kind of have to start thinking about it in a gendered way of like if this, if she weren't a woman, would she have to fucking yell about it so much? Yeah? Yeah, And I think the movie isn't it's because it's it has to toe a line because it's so could have been much. I think, like more obvious about that. Yeah, and Niah only like she only says it a couple of times where she does point out like, well, it's also because I'm a woman that I'm not allowed to say these things.

And I think the move too in the movie's credit. I think it. I don't think it like pushes that. Harder than it has to. For sure.

I think other stuff, there's enough other stuff going on that they don't need to hang their hat on that it's obviously part of the text subtech. It's obviously there, I mean, but like to put it in our faces, I don't. I think we would have lost out on other more nuanced than that the movie was doing. Yep. Yeah, And I think in terms of just being like a sports movie, I think it's great.

The music in this movie is so like, oh good swelling score like it's it gets yeah. Uh yeah. It definitely not even close to being one of my favorite sports movies at all. I like it more than I expected to. The opening credits are great.

They do a lot of little graphics and text on the screen that's all handled really pretty and nice. Travel them out. Yeah, it's very attractive. It's an attractive film. Obviously.

The performances are fantastic. There's a lot of great night scenes that are lit really dynamically and fun. Water scary, and they make water look scary. And it's so hard to do that. Like, that's a lot of swimming, Christine, Oh god, that so.

Like obviously in at Betting didn't swim for like twenty four or whatever. However, well, I don't even know how many times they say nine thousand miles. It wasn't of like twenty four miles. It's not twenty four miles. Obviously she didn't swim that entire length NonStop, because it's a film that broad was in the water swimming so fucking so much, so much.

And let me tell you, like I've started swimming again, like for exercise, and I was so excited because like and then again this movie kind of popped me up for it. And the like second day I go to the gym to do it, I'm like feeling so good. I'm like, yeah, all right, great, Okay, I'm pretty tired wearing dass. Okay, it's okay. I'm like halfway done.

Right, I've been doing this for like thirty minutes. I'm almost done. I look at the clock. I had been swimming for six minutes. Well, I mean it takes time to get in there.

And there is a moment in this film it is it is the last swim when like they realized like they're gonna do it, Like they've passed the hard part. They're got it, and Jodie Foster you know, goes and calls and I had over and I had like at this point, like brain dead right there, She's got nothing in her in her brain anymore. And Jodie Foster's like, look, look you got this. We are so close. You can see the horizon, the home stretch.

You were at the end. You have twelve miles to go. Was it twelve miles or twelve hours? It's a lot. It's a lot swimming, yeah, she And because to you too, as a viewer, you're like, oh, they can see they can see the city, they can see it.

That must mean they're almost done. No, no, not at all. It's like it's it's I couldn't. I could maybe swim for like two minutes. So it's unfathomable to me.

Sometimes she'll just like be in the water and I'm like, how is she not drowning? I don't understand swimming in water. It's confusing to me, but it it. I think the impressive thing is that the way the movie is filmed and the way that an Ftic performs it all looks as easy as it should at any given moment, and then obviously, when it's not supposed to look easy, it does when it looks awful and terrifying. But.

So like at one point she just starts swimming away from the boat. It was so fucking terrifying to me. And it's just just swimming into the open ocean in the middle of a storm, away from the boat, and I was like, pack it up, everybody, I'm done here. Yeah, I don't even think I can watch it, because, like, if you have ever worked out to like like the point of ridiculousness, like like where you've done like for me, like the biggest thing was probably been like I've done half marathons where like it's like, oh my god, almost three hours and I'm dead, and like you hit a point where like your brain goes somewhere and. It is not this planet.

And she's doing it for like days. Mm hmm. It's wild. It's it's extremely wild, and so yes, hallucinations and getting turned around, all of it makes complete and total sense. A brave person with an interesting relationship with the water that I cannot relate to in any way.

But yeah, I'm I'm really glad you watched it. I just always thought it would be something that would be up your alley. Yeah, no, totally. It was, like you can't. Anybody that says that this is not a good movie is not being genuine.

It is. It's very well put together, very well directed, the performances, every element is like here to make it a good movie. It just is whether it's whether or not you connect with it or like how you're able to engage with it. And I think for me personally, there was a bit of it that felt and I don't know if this is maybe because of the source material it is based on is probably written from a kind of ego driven perspective. I'm just guessing it did feel a little bit ego driven to me.

With that said, look if I did that, I would probably have a fucking high opinion on myself too. It's just maybe not the most accessible way to come at the story about of someone who's very pleased with themselves. So overall, would you recommend nayat? Oh? Absolutely.

Any Any issues I have is knee splitting hairs and and probably based on personal preference. Yeah, yeah, And I don't think it's a perfect movie, but it's to me, it's like I think, there's you have Jodie. If you're a Jodie Foster fan, that's so good and you have a great, great performance. For that metting it gets you going. Uh, it's just to me, it's if you are in any way somebody who like will kind of feel that fire in your stomach with a good sports movie.

I think this one just like a good one. Mm hmmm. I recommend yes. So we will take a quick break and come back and talk about a different type of sports movie. Mm hmmm.

Howe. Everything that's a nominee, all of it sweet. And we're back. So the Novice is the flip where you had seen this and I had not seen it. Correct the money, I watched it because I'm in Isabelle for and super.

Fans, Oh my god. And for those who don't know, we're talking orphan, we're talking the orphan herself. And I believe I did speak pretty highly. Of it when we When I I always remember you did, because I remember always having it on my radar for like three years now and just never sitting down and watching it, but always knowing I needed to yeah it. So the funny thing is, though I didn't have much of a memory of it, Like I knew I liked it, and I knew it was good, you know, and but like I didn't have certain beats in my head, like if you had asked me broadly what it was about.

I think I might have missed some of the points in it, so it was good to rewatch from me too. And now I will personally say, having watched it twice, if I went to look at the of twenty twenty one when it came out, it's probably one of the best movies of twenty twenty one. For me, it's and this the writer director has like nothing upcoming. I'm very upset about that on her. And I am.

I am heartbroken. This is such a fucking singular vision. Now when I've unfortunate or fortunately, I've found myself in a position to be reading a lot of screenwriting books lately. There are some rules and they're not rules, but they are rules, and they're not rules unless they decide they are. So there's something about Naiad that felt very like this is a fucking buy the book script.

And then there's something about this that says, hey, fuck you, We're gonna sit here and talk about this for seven minutes and not move and it's like, oh my god, I love it so much. We're gonna take that rule book and drown it in the water that we are swimming or boating in at four. Am ooh doggie. This does some weird shit that I really appreciated. It really does.

Why don't you give everybody a breakdown? And again we're gonna again. This doesn't feel like a spoil movie because it is very much about the experience. But you can go into as much as he tells. You'd like tell everybody what The Novice is about.

So The Novice is about an obsessive young woman who I believe has just entered calling. She's a freshman and. Decides to join the rowing team and makes it her entire personality because she has to be the best at it. But it's not like in a nice, hopeful way like how Naiad was. So the thing about this character, and I think it is part of the synopsis in a certain way, is that her one of her main character traits is that she picks what she's going to do based on how bad she is at So she is a physics major and physics is her worst subject.

I completely forgot that element of the movie. So when the movie says to you explicitly, you're a physics major. That's your worst subject, it's like, laugh out loud funny knowing how ridiculous this woman is to know that she he just really sees the harder thing is the more worthwhile thing to do, and the way that that drives her is kind of relatable but also really upsetting and toxic. I had a very weird like experience watching this movie because I was watching it during like a week where I was really busy. I just had a lot of stuff going on at work.

I felt responsible for too much, and like I am somebody that is it's not that I'm a perfectionist, but it's that if there is something that could be done to a certain level, it needs to be done to that certain level, and I will I take blame if it's not at that level. Like I take a lot of personal responsibility on things. And it was just a week where I was I felt really stressed. I was up late, like on the weekend doing some stuff because I felt it wasn't where it needed to be. And I'm watching this and like kind of real like feeling alone a little bit of this.

Oh, Like I am not a rower. I will never try to row. I will. I have never been somebody that has been like athletically like this, although I have done sports and like decided to do something and like just not given up on it even when I should have. But there was like a heavy dose of kind of seeing this version of that personality that was really really telling.

Yeah, And I don't necessarily think it's a terrible thing. I think, you know, this movie is giving you a vision of it that is unhealthy and that is dangerous. But also like you no, like. This is who she is, like this, Like she's always going to be this way. It's a matter of finding what she can be this away about and not you know, physically hurt herself.

Yeah. I one of my notes is I felt targeted by this movie. And it's not like thing for me. It's not a specific thing. I think it's just the maybe the intensity and the single mindedness, and like just in the way that the thing is too.

Though it's not just that I'm realizing. I think it's also the way that the character handles it with such like a blase attitude, like it's nothing to her. Yeah, And and she doesn't even feel her own impact. She doesn't feel the impact of the way that she acts because of her single minded intensity. And I guess maybe that's where I felt called out, because you can't you can and she does very much get blinders and and it's like this weird so like where a Naiad was like she was like kind of a narcissist because she was so good, like she's in this film, she's kind of a narcissist because she's not good and and it's really it's really strange.

Her narcissism comes from like a really ugly destructive place, and that was really relatable. Yeah, it's it's that she is not. Naturally gifted in the thing that she is trying to do. And and like you said, she's not she's it seems like she is not naturally gifted out a lot of things that she decides but I want but I want to do it well. And I think then you see such a contrast with how she's approaching this and how the other women on the team are approaching it, because you have other players who you know are working hard.

Nobody on that team is not working hard, but nobody is working as hard as she is. And I think what's what makes this really interesting too, because you have a character there who is sort of in a way there to kind of help ground you, and so that you're kind of constantly thinking what is right, what is wrong? Because it's the other rower who is like the other like best young best novice, right, I forget the character's name, but and like she's working in the beginning, Jamie, I think it is a character. She's she's there with Alex clearly like but for her, there's something on the line, right, she needs a scholarship. If she gets on the team, she will get a.

Free ride, whereas Alex already has a free ride. Alex has an academic scholarship. And you kind of gather that she comes from money. Right, Uh, yeah, a little bit, but even if not, like within the ecosystem of the school, she already has a full ride, an academic ride. So she's essentially taking.

Right Jamie Spott in a way. Yeah, And so that that kind of puts you in a position where you're like, yeah, you know, like you're kind of naturally inclined to root for the kid that needs it, and you just you see a different approach to it, and he just it's this other thing and again not too related to figures. Kidding again, but I will because you see it for the Olympics, right, every Olympics happened every four years. A million other things are happening throughout those four years. But what happened this year for figure skating is that you have a bunch of athletes who have kind of come out of retirement and said, I'm gonna go to the I'm coming back for the Olympic season.

And of course, you know, there's a part of you that's like, wow, that's great, they get to watch my favorite skaters. There's another part you're like, but this other young team has been working their asses off for three years and now you're gonna come in and probably take the spot from them. Yeah, And you sit back. And you're like, well, but isn't that sport right? What it matters at the end of the day is who's best at this That's who deserves to get the spot.

And I don't know, so it just it throws that at you too, which I think is just another way of sort of messing with your head when you watch this movie. Yeah it is. It's that narcissism again, because like, who deserves it is never really in play for her because she knows she's working hardest. That's the only she goes by. And and not to like harp too much on a very specific element of the movie, but my favorite part of this movie.

So Alex is doing her own thing. I love her. She can do no wrong. Yeah, the best. So she's doing her own thing.

They have end up having like a row off right for like a specific seat or whatever on the varsity. Ye think. I don't know. I didn't go to college. I didn't quite fully understand the sports aspect of it either.

But. Whatever, they've got to row right. And so essentially they row one. One woman rows in this boat with this team, the other one rows in this one with this team, and then they swap and they like average out the times to you know, see, you know fairly who's the fastest, right, But then then the the rest of the team throws it for Alex. They don't row well for Alex, and you, as because you're aligned with Alex's entire movie, You're like, at least me, these motherfuckers, how dare they throw it so that they could get Brill on the team.

How dare they throw it so that they would hurt Alex like that? I can't believe that. But then when she finally confronts Jamie Brill at the at the towards the end, and she's like, why didn't you win it? Fairly. She essentially has to tell Alex, I did it's a team sport and they don't like you.

Or trust you, and it's different. Yeah, And that, to me is the encapsulation of that whole fucking movie, because it is it's the same like for Naya, it's about the teamwork. Alex goes and does her best, and she does all these solo rows, like every morning. She does her best, and she works so fucking hard. But that's not all it is.

She is erratic. She she is like two our discerning eye as a viewer, we can see even though we like and are aligned with her, she's not okay, right, So, like if you were doing team sports with. That a lot of. Absolutely not. I can't rely on that person.

Yeah, and that part is not going to be fun afterwards going for cheese fries, No, it's gonna be like, no, we. Can have cheese fries. We've been meet tomorrow, Like, no, I want to choose fries. And as stupid as Alex would think that is, that is part of the team. That's part of the experience of being on a team.

I imagine I wouldn't know, But like she the fact that she wants to like speed past that or like erase that aspect of it is so telling to that character. Yeah, well because it also, I mean it's true of like any scenario in life, right, there are very few things that you can become the champion of on your own entirely, oh for sure, right, Like oh yeah, maybe you could write a book that is that so long as you get the right editor who gets it out there. Okay, but you can't make a movie if you're an asshole. You're not going to make another one as easily. You can't, you know, like almost every other you know, most things in life, like they do require her working with people.

And if you cannot do that, then that is part of why. Like as much as you can be the best at this thing, but this is an aspect of that thing and you can't do it. Yeah, It's it's interesting, It's and I think I I don't And that's another thing about this movie. I this is my opinion. I don't know if this character learns anything.

I don't think she does, so I don't know if she learns that that that that is part part of the success is the way that you got there and who you got there with kind of thing. Yeah, like if you had to, if you had to slice open your flesh in the shower to get there, maybe it wasn't worth the journey. But I don't know that she learns that at the end. No, I agree, I because I think this is I mean, fundamentally who she is, and there is therapy she can partake in to kind of unravel that and manage it in a more healthy way. But I think, I mean, and again I think you think you have this.

I think I I definitely have. I ever tell you about the time an eye doctor called me intense. No, but like it doesn't surprise me. Yeah, I was taken an eye test and the guy was asking me like, okay, read the row. And I'm reading the row and I get you a letter.

I'm like, ah, it's either FERB. He's like, well, which one is it. I'm like, I'm telling you it's either fer but I can't I can't tell. He's like, okay, well, I just need you to just say F. I'm sorry, are you?

And this was the guy he was like, are you telling me? You're asking him? Like, no, you asked me. You told me I needed to give you something. I've told you it's I I cannot tell you what it is.

It's either this or that. It's like, Okay, keep going, and I do the whole thing. And at the end of it, he says to me, Okay, you you need glasses, you need a strong prescription. And I you know, obviously I don't know you very well, but I gather from our interaction that you're very intense person. And you know, sometimes when people with intensity, they can actually strain their eyes because they're you know, Emily, can you imagine?

Can you imagine how red my face must have been, a smoke coming out of my ears, burning this man's hair off of his head. I wow. Honestly an accomplishment. Right, So again, like you, I didn't fy a little bit with books. No.

I get it though, because like, what's the point of doing anything if you're not going to do it to the best of your ability? Why why show up if you're not going to try? Like, yeah, which is why I'm not really involved in them. It's it's why I can't. I won't play board games with certain people because I don't want them to see me that way.

My in laws we've never played a board game together. They like me, They need to keep doing that. There's a I get it though, there's like a switch the flips and it's not really about what it's about anymore, you know it. Yeah, And I get that. I'm usually cool with it, like but but yeah, I think it's weird to see it because especially not to bring it back to gender.

But it's not something we commonly see with with a with a female character, like she is just dislikable. She's just burning bridges left and right. She's she's very callous and cold and mean. She can she can be very cruel and snippy and and but it's like I don't know, I get it. Yeah, And to change that would be like what would that mean for her?

Who is she? If she does it like this is and yeah, maybe don't do rowing, maybe do pickleball, maybe do something that won't that isn't like physically dangerous for you and other people if you cross a line. But it's not like I should just chill out like this is her. Now, what do you think of the ending? So let's obviously we're talking about the ending, uh, because there is kind of a decision she makes I think at the end.

But what rights they go out to do this race, and it's just like it's a nothing race, it's a scrimmage practice. Were I wrote a note about it. I wrote a note about it. It's my second favorite part of the movie. So it's right at the end, they're gonna do this fun tradition and ever and like Alex is so fucking checked out.

Why would she be interested in that? And then like someone mentions that there's a record, and her head snaps up and she says she's like, oh, what's the record, And everybody's face is just like, Okay, well, great, Alex has ruined this now because she knows there's a record that was really relatable. Oh yeah, I've been there. Uh oh, Christine's now interested in this in a way that's going to make me not like it. So it was like a record scratch right at the end, and and and again it really the character had not has not been growing through the snoop because her reaction to it is so toxic.

So she gets so there's a record for this dumb row and during spring training or something, and it's like do some amount of length and some amount of time, and so it's her turn to go out and there's like a terrible storm and there they can throw in the rain, but not in the lightning. The movie tells us that makes it makes sense, But it's very much lightninging out and she's still going for it, and and it's a really great moment because like it really is. And like a bunch of the girl I think there's four of them. Two of them turn are done, keep going. It's her and the other like Novice, and she's just screaming at her, keep going, keep go into the lightning, and like eventually she stops too, and it's just Alex out there and she comes back in.

She comes in and there are all all the other women are already there, and she comes in and she goes to the board and like goes to write her time and then she just erases everything and her name and leaves. I think I think she beat the record. Oh I think she beat it. Okay, so my personal So it was raining really bad and at one point she fell out and had to get back in, So how would she have beaten. To be the record at that point?

But but i'm I'm, I'm but still like it. What if she beat it and that's all she wanted and all she needed was to know that she was the best so that she could just go Yeah. I love that interpretation. I think it's sunnier than I would have. But but she.

Seemed like kind of self satisfied a little bit, which is I guess what threw me a little well. And I think that's where there's like maybe the door opening for some people to interpret that as like, oh, she maybe had a realization that this is like she she went overboard, Like literally, she goes overboard because she falls. Do you think that. I think she quits the team. I think she yeah, definitely, Like I think something in that And maybe it is the fact that like she kind of almost dies where she kind of says, Okay, I'm done.

I did what I set out to do. I'm done. I think, don't think you know, I think maybe now she's joining the badminton team and terrifying me. Uh, it's not over for her, Like this is not the end of her being intense or going after something the way she goes after something. But it feels like that is her.

If I say that as her giving up, I feel like that sounds like like I don't want to insult Alex by saying that, because I also would never want her mad at me, but it does feel like it's her kind of saying like, fine, you're right, I'm out. Wow, how about this? What if it wasn't and this would this would fly a bit in the face of the character. What if she didn't beat the time but she was the only one that finished the row and they were all back in there cowering from the rain. So maybe in a way she did win.

Oh yeah, I mean I think there is a sense of triumph at the end. It's not. It's toxic in and of itself. That's why I say this woman did not learn a thing, And I kind of like that. I do too.

I'm with you, like I think she like there is I am glad that she's leaving that team because I don't think that team is good for her, and I don't think she's good for that team. Like this is not a relationship that makes sense in any way. Oh no, no, not at all. It's it's it's her trying to stay in a team that's that like hostile, and she's hostile to her and she's hostile to them, Like it's it's exchange, but like that's not tenable for anybody, Yeah at all, but it sure was fun to watch. Yeah, and it's funny.

I the movie did kind of shake me, I think, similar to you, But I had not really, I have not. I'm still toiling with that ending. I have not come to land on what I think it means. And I even went and looked at the Wikipedia to reread the very end of the plot just to make sure, like more of an indication. Yeah, and there isn't.

But I'm fine with a with a loose ending. I guess if you're gonna it is a singular creation of a writer director, so I it's very intentional. I guess it doesn't matter. It's like it doesn't I guess the result of the race and why she left doesn't matter. It's just that she did.

And she did about it well. And because you think earlier when she is talking a bit about like her high school experience, right, because she got this romance going with an older TA and like they're they're out of pool Hall, and she's kind of talking about like who she was in high school, and like you kind of assumed, just based on this character, you're kind of guessing, like, oh, she was probably like number one in her class the whole time, and she has this girl. It's this beautiful monologue where you find it out love scene. Oh it's so great, where she's like, no, I actually wasn't a good student. My mom made me take honors.

And there was a boy in my class who made a comment and I said, okay, I just have to be better than you. And I worked my ass up just to be better than him. That's and it took me half a year to do and I was better than him. And then like so the girlfriend's like okay, and like so then were you valutarian? Nope, because another girl came in and she was better than both of us and that was fine.

Like that she kind of cause again, like I know I do this. It's like you set your own goalposts for yourself. Yeah, and they. Don't make sense to anybody else. You would never try to explain.

Them to anybody else. But like you have to be better than this one person, or you have to be the person who gets these seven answers right, or who uh finishes the race even though like you're dying, Like yeah, ever it is it's that I guess I don't know, Christine, do you think other people don't have this inside them. A lot of people don't. Is that wild? I think a lot of the yeah, a lot of the problem is some of my best friends, and which would be you.

You are one of the best friends I've ever had. I think when you you pick a best friend, a lot of times you pick someone very much like yourself. Yeah, And I think sometimes that can that can insulate you against the fact that you might actually be an alien with an anxiety problem. Yea, because you don't realize that other people are like that. Yeah, yeah, very bad.

I think you're so right, yep, But I also do think you said you that little that that you just said might have really cracked this case wide open about the ending, because you're You're right, it wasn't necessarily about being valedictorian for her, it was about beating him. Yep. She was less. She wasn't really pressed when someone beat them as long as it wasn't him who beat her. So in the end, maybe it was just the fact that she beat brill, she beat.

She's the best freshman, she's the best novice. Yeah, without a doubt. Yeah yeah, yeah, So maybe that really is all it was. And honestly, I think it would be good for her to come up with more little goalposts like that. So I'm totally with you.

She could just. Get get in and out without yeah self harm stuff. The self harm stuff was really rough. Yeah, I think she. Just needs to if for it not to be I wouldn't even say not to beat sport because like there's there's aspects of sports you could do that are that intense without it being like dangerous.

But you see that a lot with runners. I think you see it with every sport, but like it's something like very common. I think with a lot of like you'll see to like races where there are people who just you can tell have like six days a week they are at their fullest running and don't stop and do this and everything else. And often like you'll meet like former addicts who have sort of switched to that, Like there's that same sort of like it's not like quite the addictive personality, Like it's this kind of obsessive personality, I guess, And yeah, I think it's. The Other thing is it's really wild.

And I'm so glad you had similar feelings to this to me, because I think there's a lot of people that would watch this movie and kind of walk away with like geez, she's crazy or like man like that that's an intense personality disorder or whoever you want to read it. And I love that you and me both watch us were like I kind of feel seen. Yeah, yeah, I have dueling notes. I feel targeted by this movie and I could fix her, so so I don't know. I feel like in Naya, she really pushes forward when she learns to love herself again that child that she was, re embrace her.

And I feel like maybe we could learn something from from from Alex in the Novice that we are her and we love her and yeah, just love ourselves, embrace it. It's who we are. Yeah, it's true. Yeah, and we get shit done because of it. That that's no joke.

So like it's again you feel represented of an represented in a movie about this because very rarely do they allow women to have faults at all. This is just just a fucking cavalcade of faults. Yep. So we really get it all in this one. Uh huh.

And she is still like again you are so riveted by her. Yeah, and you in our case anyway, like you get her and you you understand it and you you've been there and you will be there again. Yeah. And Isabelle Furman's tremendous. Oh she's so good in this.

I mean she's good. I've never seen her not be great. She got I mean she she have a big career. Yet, like I feel like she did like an Orphan too, did a lot of great things for her because I think people understood that, like not just that like she could play that character again, but that she like was a driving force and getting that movie made. I always got the feeling that she auditioned to be Catinus, like that she could could have.

Yeah, she's in what had happened was is she's in those her Horizon movies. Yeah, so I feel like that chomped up a lot of her time posts. Yeah. Probably Now I am whatever Isabelle wants to do with her career. I personally would rather her just be in genre movies so I could continue to watch her in genre movies.

But like, it's fine. There's also a movie that she was in that was directed by Julia Stiles that I want to watch, How Horrible Wish You Were Here? Not very good. The Last Thing Mary Saw, which was on a shutter and it's very disappointing. I purposefully avoided it because the trailer made me feel it boring.

No, it is not good at all, and it's very disappointing because it's not her fault by any means. But no, that's a shame. Yeah, I'm glad you liked it. I loved it. Yeah, I and I and I get why.

And I remember when you had first talked about it, you said, like you have to see this, and like you were so right, and I am again like I think I watched it at the right time in. Life, also where I. Was like able to find myself this way. Yep, movies find you when they're meant to, because it's true, because honestly, peek behind the curtain. I got kind of sick from my last COVID booster, so I had to put off recording.

So you didn't even need to watch this when you did. I I almost if if I had a little more time, I would have watched it again. There was a minute where I was really not feeling well and I was like, you know what I could get through Naiad, And I know I m member enough about that. I'm so glad I didn't do that, because it just it is it is rewatchable because once you kind of know the trajectory is what it is, it watches much different because you're expecting maybe a bit more of a change in the character. Yeah.

Yeah, and I love that you don't get it. It is great of like revolutionary. To is that it's subversive as shit, I think, But yeah, I like it a lot. I hope this uh this writer director makes more movies. Yeah, Lauren uh had Away hate away as the writer director.

And you're right, she's got nothing on her coming soon. That is heartbreaking because this is so good and I would be so fascinated to see what else she does. How did people well, then people with a lot of money, like billionaires, have no taste. I was just going to say, how do people with a ton of money not just like watch a movie and then call up the person and say, hey, can I give you some money to make a movie? Million dollars laying around?

That's a movie, right, Yeah, that's like actually five novices, So yeah, I can take that and make a movie. I agree. I don't that's all I would how money works? Yeah all I would do this, lady. I'm sure I could if I was a millionaire.

I could get in touch with her and be like, look, yeah, what movie do you want to make next? Right? And could it involve figure skating? Because then I have another investor for you. And what Isabelle Ferman also want to be in that?

Because she talk about training and stuff. She changed hard for this too. Ye, really impressive stuff. Everyone. You should watch both of these movies.

You really should, everybody. And also like it's summer, it's water, it's good time to watch these movies. Why not, right? Yeah? And this looks good like that.

It has a very particular kind of like color pellet to it. Yeah, that really works. Well. It is not like a pretty movie. It's kind of the opposite of Naiad, which is like blue water and dolphins and this, and like you're it's like it's four in the morning and it's raining and it's overcast and it's miserable and everybody's sweating and like, yeah, like it's a sports movie, but a very different kind.

Yeah. Yeah, all right, Well go find these movies people. They're great. You should, yep, and give a little bit of leeway to the intense women in your life, if you will, Oh please, Yeah, we just understand that we are the way we are and the world moves better. Because of that.

So yeah, all right, I think the next time we're together we should probably do a catch up because it's been a while. Oh okay, yeah, yeah. I've got some wild Amazon Prime watches to go over that I look forward to doing. I've you know what, let's tease, I've watched some new stuff. Oh oh, look at this.

I know I'm trying to get into its Okay, there's been some good stuff this year. This is true. We don't want to go too far into it. But guys, there was another final destination. Oh my god, I've been waiting so long to talk to you about this.

Should we just know? It's okay? I was gonna say, should we just do a final destination? I mean, oh god, then. I have a lot to say about the new movie.

I'm just gonna say that. Okay. Well, well we'll talk about what we have to talk. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, all right, Well, folks, you know where to find us kind of well, find Christy at Christine Makepeace dot com. That's me, okay, and.

I'm Blue Sky at X teen make Piece. I believe that is also me. There Still I. Think I'm there. I am.

I still don't really understand how blue Sky works, but I'm there at Deadly Dolls, so you can find me there. Uh. And everybody, just, you know, be nice to your team or not not. You don't have to be nice, I don't know. Just respect your team.

I guess you need you need. Them to respect you because otherwise you're not gonna win. It's true. Yeah, that's the lesson you take from us. Goodbye, everybody, Goodbye.

Row row row you both genily downstreams fairly, merrily, merrily merrily. Left is to dream row row row your boat gensly down the streams merrily, merrily merrily. To roll, rolling fast and slow. You know we love to roll. Now he's jumping a goal.

Jump jump jumping now, jumping down the streets, mearly merrily, meverly, merrily. Jumping with your beaks. Jump jump jumping now jumping down the street meterly, verly, merrily, merrily jumping with your beaks. So we love to jump jumping. Give me.

You know we love to jump. Now. We're stappy everywhere Step step stamp stamp da