Halloween II (2009) — "Man was meant to eat meat. We, all of us, have a little bit caveman in us."

We're in Wayne Media. Nurse? On August 28th, enter the path of evil. Explore the mind of madness. Evil is here.

And experience the final destiny of a legend. Michael is more evolved. Halloween 2. There's blood everywhere. This film does not get rated.

Hello, everyone, and welcome to the CultureCast. I am your host, Chris Stashue. Unfortunately, for those of you out there who still listen to this and hate, I'm joined by my good friend. I don't even know if that's a real thing. I just love making shit up.

I love making shit up at this point. And let's see if anybody's paying attention. And joining me once again is my friend and yours. He is the newest member of the Weirding Way Media family. As of this episode today, though technically it's been in the works for a while now, He is the host of Movie Meltdown, which you can find at weirdingwaymedia.com, along with all the other great shows.

But more importantly, he is the host of that show, and he's been podcasting longer than some of you may have been alive, or as long as some of you may have been alive. He's been broadcasting half of my life, the host of Movie Meltdown, your friend and mine, Brian Renfro. Um, hey, how's it going? I am here, once again. Not that good for you, because I know what movie you watched, but you know, hey, whatever.

You know what? You know what? Don't bury the lead quite yet, Brian, because on this episode of the CultureCast, we are continuing our look at the films of Rob Zombie, or more specifically, the film of Rob Zombie that came out in 2009, two years after the last one we talked about. This is a little bit of a two-parter, two-hander, as it were. We're going to be talking about 2009's sequel to to the 2007 film of the same name as other films.

This film also shares the name of two other films at this point. We're talking about 2009's Halloween II. So the film is written and directed by Robert Zombie, I believe, as he likes to be known by his friends. It's based on characters by John Carpenter and Deborah Hill. That's the only time John Carpenter's name is ever going to show up on any of these Rob Zombie films.

The film once again stars Malcolm McDowell, Tyler Maine, Sherry Moon Zombie. Boy, doesn't that name get everybody excited. I've heard of her. Brad Dorff. Not Tim Conway as Dorff the...

What? Dorff on Brad Dorff? They need to do that. I mean, Dorff on Slashing? Dorf on Golf is my favorite.

Dorf on Murder, I feel like, would have a following with some fans. Dorf on Michael Myers, yeah. It also stars Daniel Harris and scout Tyler Compton return as their roles for the previous film. This is a sequel to the previous Rob Zombie film, Halloween. It is not really a remake of Halloween 2.

It is really its own thing, though it is mentioned in some... Circles as a remake of Halloween 2, though I would say that that is being mentioned by someone who hasn't seen this movie is what it feels like. Possibly. But yeah, the film is a sequel to the last film by Rob Zombie from 2007. That film is, yeah, it's a retelling and a prequel at the same time.

If you haven't heard our thoughts on that film, go ahead and head on over to that episode. We have a lot of thoughts. Yeah, we have a lot of thoughts on that one. And I would wager we're going to have more thoughts on this one because this film is, for all intents and purposes... similar to Halloween 3, the David Gordon Green film, in that it's just, it's literally just its own thing. It doesn't really follow any other Halloween film that we've seen before, other than I guess maybe it takes place in a hospital.

Sort of. Kind of. Does it? For a few minutes. Yeah, possibly.

Technically, no, but. Technically, no, but. On screen, yes. Yes. So, Brian, I'm going to kick it to you first because, you know, you are my guest and this is your, you know, second ever CultureCast.

What did you think of Halloween? I remember when I watched it that first time. I had a take on it and I was interested to go back and revisit because I have not seen it since then and see if I landed in the same spot. And I feel like I kind of did because I think by the end of it, I was thinking earlier today, I was like, you know, in a vacuum, I actually like this movie for what it is. Like, again, the bar is relatively low for Rob Zombie movies.

Again, I apologize for Rob Zombie fans that showed up here for some reason. But I usually go in with my guard up, especially increasingly with each new Rob Zombie movie I have seen. I'm just like, I have more and more issues with him. But. That aside, I think we had so many problems with the way it was trying to structure itself, be it a prequel or a retelling last time, where it just sort of throws all that out the window here.

And I feel like as a story, it's kind of more interesting the further it gets away from trying to attach itself to the Michael Myers that we've ever known before. And I also think from what I've always thought about Rob Zombie, visually, he is a great filmmaker. And That part of it, I think, is solid in this movie. I think even more so. I don't think there were a ton of amazing visuals in that first movie.

There were some good moments here and there, but, like, nothing spectacular. This, I think, goes above and beyond that visually, and I think is really impressive. Like, again, I don't know how much he would even give credit to, like, his DP or whatever, but regardless, he's. The name attached to it, so... The end of the day, it's his movie and it looks really good.

So there's some good things up front about it. And then I'll have a lot of other issues as I always do. I have gone on record as saying I am a fan of it. Yeah. And I think I said it on the last episode when we talked about it.

It is unlike any other Halloween. It definitely is. Really kind of all over the place in a lot of ways. It almost feels like less of a Rob Zombie movie than the last one. Which maybe is why I like it more.

Right. But at other times, it also feels exactly like a Rob Zombie movie. I, you know, yeah, you got Richard Brake in there. You got a lot of unnecessary, gratuitous, I mean, really just gratuitous violence. Yeah.

And I would even say, and this is probably I would think for me, like the biggest knock against this movie. This movie is not in any shape, form or fashion. a successful sequel to the last. I think that's what I was going to say. It's barely a, it's barely a Halloween movie of this series. It's a movie that takes place around Halloween.

I will give you that. But like in the franchise sense, it is barely of a Halloween movie. It almost is like, in a lot of ways, Casino Royale-esque in the terms of like, well, we're not going to do any of the Michael Myers stuff. Like, he's just walking around most of the movie, barely even killing anyone. It's just Michael Myers walking around like...

I don't even know where he is. He's just walking around like that. I don't. I mean, you tell me if I'm wrong, but Michael's just been like presumed dead. But he's just kind of like hanging out in a year time between the first movie and this movie.

And by the end of this movie, he comes back and he comes back to Haddonfield. Why? I have all these questions, too. Right. Fucking why?

I don't know. Like, I'm not trying to be flippant here, but the thing about this movie that I think I enjoy is that it's, it's a weird movie. It's a fun movie, but it's not really a successful Halloween movie. Cause it's such, it's just random. Yeah, it is like random.

They talk about David Gordon Greed's movies, especially that second one where it's like, well, and Michael's just wandering from house to house. And there's all these like fucking random people that he's interacting with. This movie has that one beat. Yeah. And, you know, from Richard Brake getting decapitated by Michael Myers with a piece of glass for no reason to Octavia Spencer being murdered by Michael Myers in an extended dream sequence for like 25 minutes of this movie for no reason.

Like it's it is the least successful Halloween movie in a lot of ways because it's not a Halloween movie. It is just its own thing, which is fine. I'm not complaining about it being its own thing, but I am more or less. Addressing the fact that for this being a Halloween movie, immensely unsuccessful as a Halloween movie, as like a slasher sequel to the film that we saw in the last episode. It's also unsuccessful because it's barely a sequel to that movie.

Like it's. This, in a lot of ways, feels like an epilogue to the film we just watched. It doesn't really do anything. And in a lot of ways, you know, we talked about this on the last episode. There is another movie that we didn't get.

There is a third movie. Oh, kind of. But again, I don't even know if story arc wise, like I don't feel like he even had anything mapped out. I think he just like was signed to a movie. a three picture deal and didn't want to do it well i'm not talking about that as much as like the way this film plays out is like there is a third film that doesn't happen in between the two or after this movie yes you you could that's my thing is like you could have a whole nother movie in between huh Yeah. Well, and I was going to say like, yes to both.

Like, yes, there's a movie in between this one and the last one. And yes, there could be a movie after this one. So a quadrology is what you're looking for. I see. That's what the world needed.

They were like, I need four Rob Zombie Halloweens. I wondered why you were going down that road, but all right. Well, and that's the thing. So this movie opens with a flashback to a different actor cast as Michael Myers, young Michael Myers, which, by the way, Chase Wright Vanek stepping into big shoes that are not filled very well by him because he is not as good of an actor. He's also smaller overall.

These are flashbacks. So it's and well, flashbacks of him in the asylum. So he should have been bigger than when the murders happened. But he looks like a younger kid. He's actually not.

I checked. He's like the same. He would have been the right age, I guess, two years later versus the other actor. But. He looks younger, which makes these flashbacks make less sense because then you're like, wait, so is he before?

No, he can't be before the murders because he's in the asylum. So why is he a little kid? So, yeah, I feel like that was almost questionable casting. But well, and I was going to say it's questionable casting for a whole host of reasons, namely, why did we need any of this again? Well, and that was the first half of last movie.

I hate to tell you. Well, that's the problem, though, is like, why are we going and relitigating what we've already seen? Oh, so we can have this white horse. And so the film actually opens with this fake quote about a white horse from something that doesn't actually exist. And while that's fine that you want to create this quote and in universe quote, whatever, can you...

Explain to me your take on what the white horse is meant to be in this film. Okay, I'm glad you at least threw it out there because I already had a whole lot about the white horse. Okay, please, please extol the wisdom of the white horse to me because I am all ears. Not that I didn't understand it. Far from it.

It's more a... I want to hear what your take is, because I don't think it's as straightforward as just like, well, it's clearly just this. Like, I don't think that's the case. I'm not saying that Rob Zombie is like looking to mine the depths of human insanity. But what is your take on the usage of the white horse imagery in Halloween 2?

Which, by the way, crazy question to be asking about a fucking Halloween film. Yeah, exactly. Well, and that's the thing. I remembered that from that first time watching it. And I was like, well, I definitely think we're going to get to that.

And then the movie starts. I'm like, oh, no, we're starting with that. with it. Like we're leading off the movie straight into the white horse. So here we are. This was actually my thought The first time I saw it, and again, as soon as it popped up again this time, I was like, so again, not to throw too much shade at Rob Zombie for trying to be a fancy filmmaker, but I'm like, the first time I saw it, I was like, so is this Rob Zombie trying to be David Lynch?

Because that's, I mean, that's in repeated episodes of Twin Peaks. Like, the white horse is a... reoccurring vision, symbol, whatever, in David Lynch in general. But, like, David can back that up because he was a genius and he's crazy. So, like, he can come up with all kinds of crazy reasons to work in this white horse symbolism. And I'm like, Rob, are you really going to start wading into that pool?

Because I'm like, that's a lot to deal with there, especially when you're Rob Zombie. And you're making a slasher movie for God, so... Do you want me to keep going or would you like to throw something out there in between? No, keep going. I'm curious.

I'm listening because like I said, I don't think that Rob Zombie is the right person to try and do this kind of thing. That's what I'm saying. But at the same time, I can't really drag him for trying something else. That's the problem. I'm not going to be like, well, you're up your own ass, Rob Zombie.

He's allowed to be. He's a filmmaker. He's making a film. It's just, this seems like a weird choice, I guess, is the way I look at it. Well, and that's, I think, there's parts of me that that's part of why I like this movie more than the first one, really, is because...

I think that was half of, as we said last time, like, he didn't want to make another movie specifically with our producers in question. Not in question. They were there, and they were. Causing a horrible time on the set for all parties involved, so... He didn't want to come back and work with the Weinsteins.

And the deal was, OK, I'll I'll do the second one if I can get out of the third movie in the three picture deal I made. So he came back with this and that I feel like is, again, using this to his best advantage. He's like, OK, I didn't want to come back and do this, but if I'm going to. I want to bring something new to it. I want to do something different that I haven't had a chance to do as a filmmaker.

So like, I, again, I'm fine with him doing that in theory, but then you get in here and you see it in front of you. You're like, wait, what, what do, what are we doing? Like, so there's, I mean, there's a lot of ways you could take it. And I do have at least one answer from Rob Zombie, which is the more interesting one. And then I have my own theory.

So first off, there's like all these different versions of a white horse in all these different pieces of history, more or less. I mean, it is in Revelations going back, you know, biblically, for God's sake. So it's specifically the behold a pale horse and like your whole quote if you really i don't think we want to go down that road but it's in the bible for god's sakes pun intended uh it's part of native american folklore which again made more sense in twin peaks because the part of the country and you've got hawk so at least there's a character tied in that has reason to have it i don't know so Again, it makes more sense coming from something like that than like, why would we be working in Native American folklore into this slasher movie that Rob Zombie's making?

So that's also weird. So again, there's plenty of other, I saw tons of other different pieces of history and different cultures that reference this white horse theme. Or symbolism or whatever they want to turn it into. And I was just like, is he pulling from any of these? Is that what this is supposed to be?

So I went looking and the answer I got was no. In answer to your question is like, is Rob Zombie the right guy to use that? Even he says no, because he says it doesn't really have any deeper meaning than what is already established in the film. The toy horse is simply a representation of Michael's lost innocence and nothing more. A toy from his once happy childhood.

I'm like, wait, wait, wait, wait. Okay, now we just got arguably worse. Did Rob Zombie just pull a rosebud? Because that's kind of. What I'm getting out of that quote.

That's kind of what it sounds like. I mean, we get, I mean, although he kicks off the movie, which I guess is also how that movie kicks off. But like, if we got to the very end and we just got like slow-mo shots of young Michael riding a horse in a field somewhere, like I guess it would really cap it off. Badly. So I guess thanks.

We didn't get that. But I don't know. That's a weird take. And even weirder that like for something that visually and I think that is what he said. He wanted to specifically use a white horse because it was cinematic and it looked really cool on screen, which I agree.

Like that's some of the shots I would reference that. Look amazing visually. But again, trying to work it into the story or whatever the bigger. Story is supposed to be makes it more difficult. But yeah, according to him, it's just a toy.

Could have been a fire truck. So we could have, you know, little Michael riding a fire truck around in these visions that he also has. So there's those. And then I have my theory, if you're ready for that. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Because it's my favorite. And I don't know how seriously I'm taking this, but it's it's now. And it did occur to me the very first time I watched it. So this isn't even something recent that I doctored up to come up with this nonsense.

This did occur to me the first time it happened. are we just talking about heroin? Because it's the horse reference. Wow. And so, yeah, I'm just like, so now I'm just like, so in my new canon that I'm creating in my head, that's totally fake. Young Michael realizes what he's done and while he's in the asylum and.

It's too much for his little brain to process. So, he turns to drugs to escape from the guilt. So you've got somebody from the outside sneaking some guard, sneaking in heroin for young Michael, and he starts using it to escape from all the guilt. And then are, this is even more of a giant leap, are all of these two movies just like crazy drug-induced delusions? Because if so, it would kind of make more sense why they're as weird and wacky as they are.

It's like from the first couple of murders is everything from that point on, just crazy drug-induced delusions. And that's why we have the horse. And that's the thing. Where I come in at this game, or at this point in the game in terms of the movie, is I can't understand why there's this huge dream sequence in the movie. I don't understand that at all.

Like, I'm so confused. Because his wife was dead already. So if he's going to work her back in, which we know he has to do, we've got. To come up with dream sequences and flashbacks. That's fine.

We can do flashbacks all day long. But why a dream sequence that is as long as the one? I mean, the one in this movie, this dream sequence in this movie is. Oh, we're talking the hospital dream sequence, not just mom and the horse. No, I'm talking about the hospital dream sequence.

Which is also kind of there, too. Right. I'm talking about the hospital dream sequence, which is, I mean... I mean, talk about a fake out. Yeah.

I mean, it is a long fake out. If we're going to wake up and scream and it's going to be a fake, aha, gotcha. I was like, it is a lengthy version of that. Which is crazy. Well, and it's, I'm like, tell me another movie that has something like this.

Genuinely. I mean, there definitely are some, but they're not normally this long. I've definitely seen some that like it's an extended scene and then. You're like, oh, wait, no, that was fake. Nevermind.

So. But yeah, this one is a lot. And to start the movie like that. So your entire intro of the movie didn't really happen. Like, that's a weird move to make as well.

And it's never explained as to what, in fact, did happen. Yeah, we don't know how much of that was based on reality. Like, did she go to a hospital? Did, you know, did Octavia Spencer actually work as her nurse? Like, were the regular things based on what actually happened?

And then she inserted Michael into it and all the murder and that. Or didn't did they not even take her to the hospital? Because that's my next question is once we jump to the 15 years later, bloody Laurie, like how is she wandering down the street? But the cops were right there at the end of the last movie. They just let her walk off.

Like, come on, bracket. Like, what are you doing? Like, why is she just wandering down the street after blowing somebody's head off? Well, and that's the other thing I don't understand. And I think this movie does a very good job of being like, well, there's not really a good answer.

And it's like, really? Drugs. It's all heroin. Yeah, I just, I don't, I guess, I don't understand what Laurie's deal is in this movie. Because she is a completely different character.

Yeah. Like a completely different character. The way she acts is completely different. And they don't do anything with it. I guess that's my issue.

Is they don't do anything with her being such a different character in this movie. And I don't understand why. Because her character is so drastically different. different from the way she was in the first movie. I mean, I understand, oh, she's living with the brackets now and she's just, she was changed by Michael's attack. Really though?

I could get that. Like if they wanted to, because everything she went through that last time, I would understand if they were dealing with like PTSD, you know, if they were really going to like dig into like, okay, that's, that's what, this whole movie kind of is about is how much of an impact he made on her life and now that he's gone in quotes there because we don't know what happened to him he just mysteriously disappeared so like how did how did the actions that she had to witness affect her and then how is she dealing with the fact that she doesn't really even have a body to know that. He's dead so like All of that I could. See being an interesting character study, but that's kind of not what we get.

We just flip a switch and she's like, well, now I'm crazy and I don't care about anything. The world sucks. And I'm mad about the fact that I had a guy try to kill me last year. So, yeah, it does just seem like she's just she seems like she's angry because she had to go through that, which I guess you would be. But I don't know if that counts as character development.

Well, and that's what I don't understand is like that is not character development. And to be fair, man, I'm going to just go out and say it because this is the part of the movie that really bothers me. Why was Danielle Harris even in this movie? Because she's awesome and we like her. I get that.

That's not what I'm asking. That's the real world answer from the screenplay answer. I don't know. Especially watching it this time, because I mean, my my real answer for me and I remember I remember this. I think it was so important to me at the time that I named the episode that we talked about it a million years ago.

I I dig Chicks with Scars because I mean, if anybody's kind of pulling off this look, Daniel had it going like I'm like, all right, I get that. But then I got back into it. I'm watching this. I'm like, she has nothing to do. So like, really, if you're going to bother to bring her back just for, I guess, name recognition, because she's so connected to the Halloween series, like why not make her useful to the plot?

Like all she does is sit at the house and like answer the phone and complain about stuff. But like, she doesn't have anything functional to do and she never leaves the house. She kind of, plays Laurie's partner? Kind of, yeah. I mean, that's what I would, the closest comparative.

And what I will tell you, the thing that made me laugh about this movie, watching it this time, why does Laurie have Rob Zombie's hair? Okay, this is what he does. And this is one that I was like, I don't even know if I'll bother to go into this, but I've questioned this. For many, many- Bother, Brian, bother. This is what we do.

So it's a weird thing about him as a filmmaker. Why? does he keep making all the movies about someone that looks kind of like him yeah because he started doing it like devil's rejects he gave he gave bill mosley the big beard so like he already had long hair and a big beard and then we get to like this movie and michael myers has long hair and a big beard like and he's a big dude and he looks like rob zombie essentially and also lori has his hair But then you go forward and it's like, look at several of the other movies with the new guy that he cast, the Jeff Daniel, that the other guy that becomes lead in most of his movies after this, he almost always has long hair and a big beard. And like, I'm like, why?

Or do you just want to be the star of these movies? Just make yourself that you're the director. You can cast yourself if you want. But like, it's weird that he keeps like carbon copy version of himself as like, well, this is what the cool main character is going to look like. Me.

Like, what? What are you doing? Yeah, it's odd. It is so it's so strange to me because I noticed it this time. I was like, what?

Why is Laurie Strode look like Rob Zombie? Like, what's with the hair? What's with like the raggedy like dread like white white person dreadlocks like. Mm hmm. And like I just it's so again, like I I ask the question of what's the deal with it?

Because in the hands of a more adept filmmaker, they would have a meaning. Well, this is the other thing that I think it just aesthetically ties to it, because I'm also just like knowing the definitely the character that Laurie was last time. And I mean, Annie was a little more adventurous the last movie, but like she still seemed like a relatively normal like high school girl. But like now we're going from the hairstyle to the set design that I want to address. Why does the house they live in look like it's an abandoned house that squatters trash?

Dude, I was going to ask you the same. What the hell? Like, is this not Brackett's house that he's always lived in? So like. why is he okay with these two kids. And by the way they're both grown-ups out of high school now so like it's not like they're two 12 year olds that want to put stickers everywhere and like let them do what they want these crazy kids they'll express themselves that way but I'm like These are technically adults and they've trashed your house, essentially, because.

Look at all my cool stickers everywhere and posters. And I'm spray painting on the side of this door because I just don't care. I'm like, but who are we again? So it's like, once again, why is he trying to turn it into what he thinks is cool? What a weird old dude thinks is cool for teenagers to do.

Like, yeah, this is what we did when I was a teenager. We spray painted on the side of the pool I was skateboarding in and I want her whole house. To look like that. Which is so odd. It's weird because again, it's like an old white guy's house.

Like why all of a sudden have you turned it into this? But it's not just the house. Like once you get to like the weird like record store, thrift shop, coffee shop, whatever the hell that is that Lori goes to work at, work in quotes. it looks the same way. Like it's that, and which again, I've been to record stores that look like that. I understand, but I'm like, it's just the aesthetic for almost this whole movie.

And I'm like, what are you doing? Rob's like, why do you want to make everything so cool? Like, God forbid I do a regular old house that looks boring. I want to make sure everybody thinks I'm cool. I'm like, I don't, I don't understand.

It doesn't match the people. It doesn't match the town. It doesn't match what you're trying to do. So why aesthetically have you chosen this for the visual interior design of this? I don't know.

And the other thing that really was weird because I was like, I'm pretty sure Rob Zombie has a fancy house. So I went and looked and yeah, the photos from his house that he might have sold since then. But at the time they did a photo shoot, it's straight out of Architectural Digest. Like it is the first. fancy, super classy house that a rich dude would have. So he's not a punk rock kid in a squatter house.

Like, so what, what are you trying to prove, Rob? Just why, why did we go down this road with the set? Well, and that's, and that's what I've never understood. It's like that. It's, it's just that weird, like I am going to be grungy for grungy sake.

And that works in something like devil's rejects or your house of a thousand corpses here. It makes no sense. That bathroom in that house is like the walls are spray painted. It's literally, and I'm just like, what's Brackett's house for God's sake? What in the fuck is this house?

Like, what is the relationship that Sheriff Brackett has with these people? Like, please tell me. Because honestly, he's not the authority figure. No kidding. Like, it's odd.

Even though he's sheriff of the town, he should be. Yeah, it's so odd. It's such an odd choice, and I just don't get it. And, you know, we talked about this a little bit on the last episode, but I want to mention it here. Why here is this taking place?

The 90s? 91 is what we're claiming? The 70s? No. It shouldn't be, really, but- It's supposed to be 1991.

I thought that was when Michael was a kid was the 90s. So shouldn't this have caught up to closer to when the movie. Or is this, yeah, no, you're right. Yeah, this is supposed to be 15 years ahead. Is this supposed to be the mid-2000s?

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like, this isn't even a period piece, really. If so, a couple of years back. Like, it shouldn't even be dated. Like, even though everything he makes feels like it's in the 70s, this, even if it's trying to be the 90s, shouldn't be the 90s.

No, it is. You're right. It's supposed to be like 2007 or 8. Which still doesn't make any sense. It still doesn't match.

Like, No, because everybody feels like they're in the 90s. And everybody in the last film felt like they were in the 70s, even though it was supposed to be the 90s and the 2000s. Like, Rob, just make it this. Like, I don't understand why he does it. Like, is it illegal to make a film a period piece?

It is. Is it? According to him, I don't know. He does a lot of things I don't understand. yes he well again everything he loves is like from stuff from when he grew up it's like tarantino yeah half of it is just like this was the cool stuff from the 70s that i liked when i was a kid and i'm like okay i i i have a lot of these same references i said that last episode like you and i share most of the same references rob i totally get your love for these things But you're making a movie. You got to branch out a little.

You got to do it based on the reality of the story you're trying to tell, not just what you think is cool. Like there's there's a point where you got to like set that aside or like work it in where it fits. Like I would even let you have the record store maybe. But you can't make her house look like that then. It's one or the other, not both.

Well, and that's and that's the thing I don't understand. It's like what? At what point do we say, OK, Rob Zombie, you are you're good at making a certain kind of film. He could like not every film needs to be like that film. Yeah.

Oh, again, he wants everything to be Rob Zombie's a part of the feel like he wants to make sure his name is stamped on it. His identity is stamped on it, which, again, I get as a filmmaker. I mean, you're you're in the shadow of Carpenter who did the same thing. So I get it. But like Carpenter had a way of making it work, especially in his heyday, whereas like these just feel like this fledgling artist trying to be like, no, I'm like this and I do this.

And like it. So it always just seems kind of desperate the way he like throws some of the stuff in over the years that. Like, I don't know, man, just get a handle on what you want to make and make it because you've got talent. It just it's so unchecked. Like, again, I feel like he needs somebody else there.

He didn't have good producers. He obviously wasn't relying on a writer to make a sense out of any of this. So like he needs somebody else to keep his creativity in check. And he obviously doesn't have it as the problem. Well, and that's, I mean, that goes back to what we talked about in the last episode with Tarantino, right?

Because, you know, his editor, I think, did such a good job at reining him in, you know, one of my favorite Tarantino things is the script that he did for True Romance. A film that had, like, the reason that film is so good is because someone reined in Tarantino's bullshit. Yeah, you filtered it through Tony Scott and you're like, oh, well, this is a whole different kind of movie now. It's just got recognizable dialogue along the way, but it feels like a different movie than the other stuff that Tarantino started doing around that same time. Yeah.

And that for me is, I think, the big success of someone like Rob Zombie or Tarantino or a lot of these directors, like they have other people who work with them that are able to kind of pull them back from the their worst excesses, I think is the word I would use. They should. I mean, that's what we've seen in so many directors. You tell me how much of this film is excessive in terms of the Rob Zombie. Because I feel like it's excessive with Rob Zombie, but for once I'm like, I kind of vibe with it because it's just so weird.

Again, when it's doing its own thing, I kind of don't care. It's the fact that, and I was thinking that earlier, I was like, this is the main problem with this movie is, is we, as the audience, have to tie it to the last movie. If it was free and clear of all of that nonsense that happened in the last movie, I think this would be fine because it'd be like, oh, and that's what I was, as I watched it that first time, I was like, when we get Mountain Man Michael and he's just like a weird dude with his hair and his giant beard and he's just a. big guy wandering the side but i mean he's got like a knapsack and like he's just like. Wandering the woods like michael it's literally what they wish they could have done with the character up into this point it is the only time i've ever seen the character going anywhere else and and we don't.

Know where or why or what he's doing he's just wandering the earth he's like kane he's just wandering the earth to reference that same guy So that's the thing. I was like, if he would have just gone with that, I guess again, because he got roped into making Halloween and he didn't want to pass up the opportunity because they handed him Halloween. But I was like, this is what it should have been the whole time. Maybe not even with the last movie, but like this movie should just be like, I want to make a movie about a killer. And he's just a big, weird dude with a beard that wanders out in the woods.

And every once in a while, he comes into town and he comes to people's houses out on the outskirts there and he decides to murder them. And we maybe figure out why. By the end of the movie, or maybe not. But he's just a weird... big guy that doesn't talk and lumbers into town and murders people. And like, that's, that could be fun.

That could be a good slasher if you didn't have to tie it to everything else. But like, because we as the audience have to sit there and go, wait, but why, where, where is he going? Why is he, why is he back here? Why is he looking for Lori? Why, why is this weird mountain man dragging a mask around?

Like, It only doesn't make sense when you have to tie it to the first movie. And, you know, I think it might have been smart for Rob Zombie to just do what they had done with those. They were trying to do with those previous Halloween movies and just don't have this feed into the last. Like, yeah, just have it be something else entirely. I don't know.

It is the biggest problem I have with this movie is that it is a sequel to the last film because it doesn't want to be. It has problems with being a film in reference to the last film because the last film, again, was like, it's almost, I don't know, I'm not going to say it's Star Wars-esque in what happens in this movie, but in terms of pivoting, they pivot away from the last movie so hard. Like, you know, in a way that I was was not expecting the first time I watched this movie and every time I've watched it since I'm like, what the fuck? Or I guess you've said it already. And I want to repeat it again.

Like Rob Zombie is such a specific kind of filmmaker and makes such a specific kind of film. on every single one of his films, it says, A Rob Zombie Film on the poster. It's not Rob Zombie's Halloween. It's A Rob Zombie Film, which, again, as far as I'm concerned, is really no different. Yeah, it's still rubber stamping your name right there with the title, essentially. I just have a real big issue with...

This film coming out, it being a Halloween film. And like you said, it needing to be tied to the previous Halloween film for whatever reason, even though it doesn't need to be at all. That's as I went back into it this time. That's what like right from the beginning, there's like, well, it's already just so inconsistent with the last movie. And I know, like I said, if you want to be a creative person and be like, you want to do things kind of different this time.

To some extent I get that. But again, because these are, it's different if you're doing an entirely different movie, like every, every movie. You want to do a different thing. That's fine. But when you're doing a direct sequel, it's hard to steer too far away from what we already had.

So the fact that like we get, into this and like immediately we're getting these like visions of mom and the horse and the snowing and all of these things right off the bat and I'm like okay but we didn't have those last time so why all of a sudden now hell of a retcon baby well that I was just like so it'd be different if like mom died at the end of the last movie and then you'd be like oh this is since mom died now he's having these visions of mom and like so But, like, no, she was gone by the time you were a kid, like, from the halfway point in that movie. And all of the grown-up murder times, she was already gone, but we didn't get this treatment in the second half of the last movie. So, like, what is it now that, like, suddenly now...

And it wasn't even like before he was murdering people like again, he'd already murdered like four people or more by the time he went into the asylum. So it doesn't really have that as a dividing line. So I'm just trying to figure out like what's what's the reason for this? Like now, all of a sudden, we're going to work in this weird, almost supernatural thing that kicks in where it's like we're having visions and he's like. psychically linked with his mother, maybe sort of, we don't know, but I'm like, what, what is this? Is this a new problem?

Is this a new dysfunction in Michael's like continually deteriorating mind? Cause that's the only thing that kind of makes, I was like, if you have an answer, it's, you know, at the end of the movie, he got shot in the head. Which is never explained. Never explained. Not even once.

They didn't even try to rush in and save him. They just loaded him in the meat wagon. Unless the whole white horse thing is the effects of him being shot in the head. And that's what I was thinking. I was like, that's the only way that that almost makes sense as the dividing line is if somehow, I do not understand how anyone would survive point blank being shot in the head, But hey, crazy medical things have happened.

In the world. So we'll assume he's also really thick skull he's also possibly supernatural we never addressed that either but like okay if for some magic reason he didn't die it's still i'm assuming whatever part of your brain a bullet just went through probably did some damage along the way so maybe the synapses are firing and instead now you just get mom and a horse like it That's the closest I could come up to with a reason that all of a sudden in this movie, we have this new aspect that should have been going on all along. Otherwise, if it was just weird parts of his mind or him dealing with mom from his childhood or all these other things, then it should have also been in the last movie, which obviously he just didn't think of it for the last movie.

So that's the best option I could come up with is, yeah, he did take a bullet to the brain. So I could be part of it. Well, and that's and that's the thing. I mean, like you said, I am willing to give the film that kind of leeway because it's a fucking slasher movie. Like, I don't need explanation, but I want you to do some heavy lifting.

Don't put it all on me. But here's the part of that that also then doesn't make any sense. Because I'm like, okay, so now is he psychically linked to his sister? Which we addressed last movie, too. But, like, it'd be different if only these visions were happening to Michael.

But Laurie's also dreaming of these same things. We see her wake up from the mom dreams, and it's the same mom dreams that are visions in Michael's head. So... Is. Mom connected to both of them?

And then by the end, I'm like, is is mom actually a ghost? Is that the supernatural part of this story? And mom is actually a ghost because she also seems to be like pulling the strings on some of these of like, OK, Michael, time to go murder again. And Laurie, it's time for you to be, you know, the crazy person. We're bringing you up for the next round.

So by the end, is mom the villain of these movies? Like crazy ghost mom is the one pulling the strings on both these weird kids. Well, that for me just makes this less Halloween and more Friday the 13th. Spooky ghost story. It's also kind of Nightmare on Elm Street at that point.

Using his dreams to affect the real world. It's all of those things at the same time, but none of them. Yes, that's the problem. It's none of them. If he would have gone down any.

Of those roads, I'd be like, well, at least he decided to do that. But he didn't really decide to do anything. He just threw out pieces of all these other things and went, you know, something like that. Which, you know, for me, I think is the real big issue with this film is that it just it introduces a lot of interesting ideas. But because it's so unfocused broadly overall, a lot of those things don't go anywhere.

Yeah. At all. I agree. Yeah. But the things that he does introduce are interesting.

I mean, again, the idea of Michael being this kind of drifter who isn't just wandering around killing people. He's not, you know, like he at times just wants to be left alone. Yeah, it's like maybe he is being like murderous and just walking around and killing people and we just never see it. We just we don't tune in for those moments. Which is weird for a slasher movie.

I don't know if that's the case. I just don't know if that's the case, genuinely, because it doesn't seem like this is the kind of film that wouldn't show it. Yeah. specifically rob zombie making this kind of a movie right and so in my mind it's like okay it's interesting that we have a version of michael that seems like put upon like he does you know it's similar to what david gordon green does like in that movie michael's not really doing anything like he's just kind of hanging out hanging out in the sewer you know well and that's serial killers do It's an interesting kind of comparative to this film because that's what reminds me when I watched that film of this film. It's like, we're just going to do something completely different, completely new, completely unlike anything else you've seen with this in this franchise.

There are things that it reminds me of other franchises, but yeah, no, like for the most part, it's nothing like any of the other Halloween films until the most recent one. And that's intentional. I mean, that was the kind of complaint that the new Halloween film had against it was like, well, this is just this fucking weird film. That's nothing like anything else. That's not my Michael Myers.

But it's not a rehash of the other stuff you've seen. So, yeah, at least it was interesting. It wasn't necessarily a good Halloween movie, but it was interesting. Well, and that's the other thing. It's like the the reality of that Halloween film is Michael Myers is barely in that film.

He's barely in this movie. I mean, maybe as Michael Myers, he's in, what, 20 minutes of this movie? Well, and you were talking about things that it reminds you of in this this time. I think I even kind of made this reference last episode, but it really applies in this this movie. He's almost just the Hulk now.

Not only that he's a giant dude, but like he's just sort of wandering from town to town, getting it adventures, which in this case is killing people. And he he's fine when he keeps to himself. But then you've got jerks that show up and want to like beat him with a baseball bat when they get out the pickup truck. And he's just like. Fine.

And then he hulks out, a.k.a. puts the mask on. And there's even a moment as he's getting the mask out that time and with the truck that I can hear it in my head. Don't make me put the mask on. You wouldn't like me when I put the mask on. Like it's it's.

So like old school 70s Hulk that I'm just like, he seems like he doesn't even want to murder these idiots, but they started it. So he's like, well, all right, I got to do it. So, yeah, instead of turning green, he just, you know, puts the mask on and wreaks havoc. on everyone around him. And then he takes the mask off and goes back to wandering across the land in the sad music place. And I kind of wish there had been more of them.

Yeah, if that was what we were going to do. Like I said, just make Mountain Man Michael. That is a movie in between this movie and the last movie that they just were... I don't know why they were so hell-bent on... If you're going to just make a weird movie, just make a weird movie.

Yeah, I mean, this one's half a weird movie. There's so much of it that I'm like, yeah, that could be cool. That could be cool. But then we're so busy trying to... retcon the last movie and make sure we get him in the mask, even though it makes no sense out in the woods that he's putting the mask on when they just saw him without the mask on anyway. So I'm like, what?

What are we doing again? Like, it's so much work to make it a Halloween movie that I'm like, just make a regular old slasher in the woods movie and quit messing with this, really. But again, the business plan was made. I have to make a Halloween movie, so I'm going to do both. Well, and that's the thing I don't get about this film is what was the intention?

I have to finish out my contract. Right. And I want to do something cool along the way. Which really sucks. Because, again, like, it is not...

For as much as Rob Zombie is not trying, right? Because we've kind of alluded to that already. Like, this is this weird kind of confluence of, I don't want to keep doing this, but I also really, like, literally do not have a choice because I am contractually obligated to. I find it very amusing that even for that being the case, this movie is still... Really entertaining for the most part.

I mean, I wouldn't even say he's not trying. I feel like he's using this this bad situation to his advantage. And it's like, well, I'm already in here. They kind of again, they fired 12 guys to make this. They brought me back as their saving grace so I can kind of do whatever the hell I want now.

Maybe not. It's weird what he is and isn't doing. Yeah, it's like he's just focusing on specific things and he's got enough say and enough investment in this movie with his name being attached to. It that they're just kind of like, oh, OK, I guess like we'll do that now. So I think he just.

Had more influence than all the other guys they fired to try to make this movie better. And he just used that to his advantage is like, I want to do this cool visual of a giant horse in. A snowstorm with this lady in a dress. And we're going to work that in. And they're like, All right.

OK, Rob, whatever. Like, so I think he used the leverage he had to make a lot of really cool aspects of this movie. It still doesn't overall make it a great movie, but it makes it an interesting movie nonetheless. Cut to all the choices that he made in the last movie, more or less being negated in this movie, including but not limited to. Loomis dying, he's still alive.

Michael dying, still alive. Yeah. Annie possibly dying, still alive. And to what end, I think, is the other question. Because, you know, like I mentioned, the Danielle Harris of it all.

I don't understand why she's in this movie. She's barely used in this movie. Like Brad Dwarf, barely used in this movie. They're kind of just... It's like, well, they're here because they were in the last one.

It's like, well, okay. So give them something to do. I mean, definitely the Brad Dorf of it all, because we need somebody tracking him down. And Loomis isn't doing that in this movie. Why is he in this movie?

That's the other one. And that... I thought was funny because, yeah, rewatch it. I kind of I knew there was a little bit of the book. Tour end of it, but I was like, I got into this and I was like that first scene.

I'm like, wow, Loomis is just a dick now. Oh, well, that's that was the other thing, right? I mean, that's the thing that ends up being the other thing that this movie is kind of known for is. The Loomis character is wow. But the thing I didn't know, and I guess like in a way, what much like the Rob doing what he wanted to do, because at least this will be interesting.

Supposedly the unlikable version of Loomis was Malcolm McDowell's idea. It was. No, because he didn't want to give the same performance. And granted, like we even said in the last episode, like he does come off like really caring in the last episode. if you in the director's cut, at least when we get a little more of those scenes, he comes off like an actual genuine guy. But then by the end of it, you're like, well, you're completely ineffective and you like, you're not doing what you should be doing, what you set out to do.

Like, so like he, it does seem like doing all of that again in a second movie would make no sense or just be repetitive for the audience and for Michael McDowell. So I'm like, Is it a logical step though, I guess is my question. I mean, I guess it depends on the person you're dealing with. I'm asking you, I'm asking you, like, do you feel like Loomis is a logical character in this film as we've seen him from, is it a logical character progression? It's a weird jump because of who we saw in the last movie.

Now, have I seen a lot of people out there that write a book, it becomes successful and they then seem like a dick? Yeah, I feel like the real world version is that happens a lot. Especially if you get a little bit of success. I'm with you. Like, I'm with you.

Like, it's not, it's not a jump. I'm just wondering if they got, if they got the gate, if they, if by the end of their time in the film, if they get Loomis to that point. Well, I think it's, again, if we made that shift from the first movie to the second and we have jumped in time at least a year, if not two, again, depending on which cut you watch on this one too. Yeah. Um, it would almost be enough time for him to like be a little different at least.

And again, he kind of went through PTSD too. Like, so this could be like, let's look at how the horrible things that happened in that last movie affected him, affected Lori, like, uh, if we really spent time, you know, addressing why they're the way they are, but like this, we just flipped a switch and now he's a dick, which again, like I said, people do that. The thing that really makes no sense to me is then all of a sudden the last 12 minutes of the movie, he's back to being the same guy. Like he totally does a one 80 becomes a super great guy again and shows up out of nowhere. And I'm like, just to get the finale of the movie.

Cause that's what you want, I guess. But like now you've completely, uh, negated everything that's come in the beginning of this movie. So what are we doing there? That makes no sense. Well, and that's what I don't understand either about this film is what is the Loomis character's art?

He doesn't seem to have one. No. He's gone totally the wrong way. And if that was the thing, if him being a horrible person is what then made Michael seek him out, or if Laurie, because... she, you. Know, she does kind of have this breakdown of like finding out the details of the book once it comes out.

If she like went off the deep end and went and like shot Loomis, like he would at least pay for the fact that he became a dick and he put out a book and, you know, made money off of all these killings and her suffering and like, it would almost make sense if we went to some sort of conclusion like that. But instead we just, once again, flip the switch back the other way and be like, no, he's a great guy and he just wants to help Laurie. And like, wait, really now after everything else we've seen. So it makes, it doesn't make sense. No, it makes no sense whatsoever.

And that, I think that's my like big issue with so much of this movie is the, it's not, you know, the last movie was fine. Like the last movie, I think in a lot of ways, like, hangs together better than this movie does which feels like the point in a lot of ways like I don't know how else to put it but it's just this movie doesn't hang together very well because it's just not when you cram the two parts together yeah no when you're trying to do as much as this movie is attempting to do some of it is going to not be as successful as one would hope. This movie is a film full of failures on so many levels because there's like, there's so much about this that is not, it's not that it's not interesting.

It just doesn't seem to go anywhere. Well, it doesn't seem like he or anyone involved is interested in the Halloween parts of it anymore. Like again, the, the stuff, the kills when he's just being crazy mountain man, Michael, like. Are pretty interesting. Again, they're very gratuitous and bloody, but, But like, if you're there for that, which a lot of people would be going to a Rob Zombie slasher movie for that in particular. it delivers like those scenes are well put together.

They are super bloody. They're over the top in the kills. So it's like that all works, but it's the cramming a man with the other trying to make it fit with the Halloween part of it that then sort of betrays the Halloween of it all. And then you're just like, well, now what have we got? It's just this muddy thing in the middle that like, then it takes away from the good aspects of the kills with the other stuff.

And if you're there for the Halloween of it all, all these other weird things going on, keep messing up your movies. So it doesn't really work from either end. On Tubi, it says, in this reimagination of the horror classic, Laurie Strode must prepare after her brother, Michael, makes a deadly return to Haddonfield. That is literally the last 10 minutes of the movie. And why?

That was one of my big questions by the end of it is like, what is he doing now? As much as I already had that question in the last movie. Which is not explained. Which is not explained. Telepathically, he's...

He knows where she is first and foremost. But then on top of that is like, what is he doing? Like, we never really, even in the last movie, get, like, is he trying to reunite with her? Like, I think originally in the screenplay, that's what it was supposed to be. Well, and he doesn't kill her.

I mean, he has plenty of opportunity to kill her, and he doesn't, so I don't understand. So now what is he doing, you know? It's like, so now you've reunited with her last time, and guess what? She tried to kill you, or killed you, depending on where we stopped that movie, but she shot you in the head. So obviously...

This didn't work out good for you last time. So this time you think... we'd have a direction. At least you'd be like, well now I'm pissed at her and I'm going to go murder this girl. But like he gets there and I'm like, I don't, what is he doing? I don't know.

Like he just killing all of her friends again. Yeah. And it doesn't like the specifics of even that doesn't make any sense with like, what is your murder plan? Because he's like following her around and he follows her to the like rock show and he's murdering her friends there. But then like, okay, if you're there to kill her, she's right there.

Go kill her. but no, then he leaves to go back. To her house and kill her other friend that he forgot to kill last time, because he's really bad at killing this girl. I love how picaresque this film is, don't you? I mean, it is. It really is.

There's beautiful moments in this. There are such great shots. So like I said, he can shoot a scene. He can find a visual and really go with it. And I like that.

And again, I. Wish he could deliver that in a movie that worked better, but we don't get that. So instead we just get him like randomly murdering people and like, you skipping around with the person he's supposed to be following to go to the other place that she wasn't at. And as far as we know, she wasn't going home anytime soon. So why did you leave the place she was at if you're following her to go back to the other place just to murder Annie?

I don't, I don't know. I don't understand it. And what's the implication with the murder of Annie Brackett? Because I feel like there's some implication there, right? He's really bad at it, is my takeaway.

Because he's really bad at the implication or he's really bad at murder? He's really bad at murdering her in particular. Because, and again, real world answer is because we like Danielle and we want her to have more scenes. We want to see her. Because I was like, everybody else in this, like he just... which cracks their neck, stabs them 17 times.

Like he is so effective at just taking people out immediately. Like the beast that he is. But every time it comes to Annie, it goes on for a really long time and he never. Finishes the job so we can have a final death scene for Danielle. And I'm like, again, we as the audience are like, we like Danielle.

Yes, more scenes. But I'm like, it doesn't make sense with the rest of what he does. Like it's not, it's not what happens in every other murder in this movie. So why, other than real world answers, does he just suck at murdering Annie? Well, I, with that scene where it's like Sherry Moon Zombie's like, now go have some fun.

I was like, is he like torturing her? Like, is he like, I don't know. Like, again, like Rob Zombie, I think it leaves enough wiggle room to have that question. But it's like, to what end though? Like it doesn't, it doesn't show up on the screen.

It doesn't present itself on the screen in an interesting way. So that's why I'm like, who fucking cares? And we don't want to genuinely like, it makes no sense. Like you, if you're not going to do anything with it, don't make the implication that something worse than what her already happened to her happens here. Because like she literally exists in the movie. to be murdered a second time.

To be tortured the entire lead up to this. Like, her life sucks now because of Michael. Her life is awful. Like, worse than it was before. And then, like, once again, she just gets the same scene again.

Equally as bad, only now we've opened up the door that maybe something. I don't know. I, I didn't really think that. And now I'm hoping that wasn't what they were hinting. That's kind of what it's fucking seemed like is like, but he like raped her or something.

I even have a problem saying that out loud, but I don't want that to be the case. Not cause I'm like invested in this movie, but it's like, what kind of low hanging fucking fruit is that? Well, and we don't want that for these movies. Like that's, that's not to be that horror fan, but I'm like, that's not what Michael Myers is. like no there are plenty of god awful human beings on this planet that are that but that's not what michael myers is that's not even what he represents when he's the bookie man like it's it's very different and a very different form of evil to go down that road and we even worked it into the director's cut on the last movie and like that was horrible but at least it was some other god awful characters it wasn't michael so i definitely like as much as like murdering people is not okay I don't want it to go even worse in my mind that's worse is to take it there and then kill off her and everybody else as well so that yeah i really didn't go down that road but maybe because i just didn't want to from the get-go.

Well and i'm not saying i want to by any stretch of the imagination it's just insanity to me that that is something that is even hinted at in this movie when it's like don't go there like you've not you've not done anything to warrant going there a and b like if she's in the movie to just be tortured i'm i'm I don't know. That's a different movie. Yeah, that's not Halloween. There's plenty of movies like that. Eli Roth film.

Yeah. Which again, we talked about Eli Roth in the last episode. Let's unpack that here. I have similar issues with Rob Zombie that I do with Eli Roth. Where it's like, you know what?

I appreciate that you think you're a great filmmaker and I'm not saying you're not, but all of the decisions you make are not the right ones. And you do not view it that way. You will view every decision you made as the right one, no matter how unsuccessful broadly the things you're doing are. And that is the sign of someone who is overly confident and confidently incorrect. And doesn't really even know what the audience is looking for.

Like they're going to bring their vision and doesn't really care what the audience wants, which again, I guess in theory is what the artist is supposed to do. I think I even said that last time, but. you gotta at least know what you're creating and like what audience you're going for. Like, again, it's certainly not going to be for everybody. Definitely when you're making a horror. Movie, but you gotta at least know what it is that you're putting together and who you're trying to please.

At least you would hope somebody in the audience is happy. And like with, with these type of things, I sometimes, I don't know. Like, is anybody happy with this movie? Like a hundred percent. Like there are people that like it more than others.

I like it more than the last one, but, I'm still not happy as a film goer, really. I think there's way too many problems for me to be okay with it as a movie. Well, and I'm with you there. It's weird to me that this film, you know, it took two years to come out. Rob Zombie didn't want to make it.

He didn't have any interest in making it. They actively tried to replace him and they couldn't. So he ended up coming back and doing it. I don't think that there are lots of fans of the first movie that are fans of this movie. And I would understand why.

I think that I am more of a fan of this movie than the last movie in a lot of ways because of the weird... This movie is an interesting failure, but it is still a failure nonetheless. And the last movie is not a failure. The last movie, I didn't vibe with it, but it's a pretty good movie. It tells a story from beginning to end.

Maybe there's not an arc for every character, but we get enough, I think, in that last movie to justify and warrant it being what it was. This movie is just like, what was the point? I'm not sure. And that's me, as someone who's like, somewhat enjoys this movie. Like, even I am just like, I mean, if you want to just exist to be kind of a nasty movie, okay, fine.

But again, there's a place for those. I don't know why you would cram one of those in the middle of the Halloween franchise other than you were in the middle of making the Halloween movies. But I'm just like, that's just such a different style and a different story. And like, it just is weird to try to cram parts of it, not even across the board. If you just 100% went there, but like you're still...

So tied to the Halloween string that runs through the whole thing that like you can't even do that right. So now you're just screwing up your over the top horror movie with all this Halloween nonsense. So again, it's just weird to try to cram these two ideas together. It does have a Devil's Rejects, Three from Hell feel to it, but it never gets to that point consistently. If you're going to hint at it and tease it and show that you know you can do it with this franchise, why not just go full bore?

Why not just do it? I don't know. Again, I feel like either go ahead and lean into the Halloween of it all and just make a more. Again, doesn't he have to be a standard Halloween movie, but at least one that follows a through line that is Halloween, that makes sense as a Halloween movie, and that ends up at the place you need it to because it's a Halloween movie and you're tied to these characters in this overall story that's been going on for decades now. Or just tell them, hey, I don't want to do two.

I'll come back and finish out my deal and make two weird one off movies about a guy wandering the woods or whatever other weird, more expensive. Experimental movie I want to make. You know, it's like I feel like just go one direction or the other and give us a more finalized, a more complete vision of whatever it is you're trying to do. Than where we land in the middle. And, and I'm with you.

Like I, I kind of just am thinking to myself here, like the worst part about this movie is that it's a Halloween. Yep. And that's, it's such a shame because I'm not going to say like, Oh, I love the last Jedi. But the worst part about last Jedi is that it's a star Wars. Like, you know, if it were, if it were a movie of some other kind of franchise, uh, but still sci-fi, it might actually have been something that people resonated.

Maybe not. I don't know. But it being Star Wars, I think it put it in a weird spot where people, you just have an expectation and you're always going to be fighting that expectation, no matter how hard you try. No matter what you do, you're always going to be fighting the expectation that someone else has based on the name, the curb appeal alone. And is that fair?

No. Is that the reality? Yeah, it is. Well, that in the same sense is the worst part of that situation for Last Jedi was not so much... it as a movie. Cause I feel like it as its own standalone movie is successful in what it's trying to do.

It's that it's tied to the first movie. Like if it wasn't part of this other trilogy, if they, what they originally. Said was like the OG OG trilogy. Yeah. Or, or even the first one, even the JJ movie, like it already is like cutting ties with everything JJ was doing in that first movie and doing its own thing in this movie.

So like, If if you just separated because originally that's what they. Wanted to do was give him his own trilogy. So I'm like, if you gave this director his. Own trilogy, let him do his own thing and not have to be tied to what was already set up in JJ's movie. And where we're. inevitably going in the third movie.

Like if you just let him do his thing and a lot of those same beats were in his separate thing. Sure, Star Wars fans would still complain, but that's because they're always going to complain. But I think it would be way more successful than trying to jam it in the middle of a JJ movie, a George Lucas theme running through all three, like just disconnect from all of that stuff. And that movie, I think, would hold up way better by itself or part of. Its own separate trilogy.

Now that we've spun off into Star Wars, which I am assuming happens all the time. It certainly does on my show, so I'm guessing it. Does on yours as well. Well, it's just, it's hard to not talk about this in the landscape of all these other films that have come out since, because shit, dude, this is 2009 this is coming out. This is still a couple of years removed from Disney buying Star Wars to begin with.

Like this isn't a pre Disney owning. Well, the last movie Halloween came out in 2007, a year before Iron Man even came out. This film came out a year after Iron Man. Yeah. Well, and that, that is the overall thing we end up talking about just as audience members is like, The franchises and like the franchise in quotes becomes bigger than any individual movie.

And that sometimes is the problem. And by sometimes, I mean kind of a lot of the time. Because you're so busy worrying about the franchise that you're dropping the ball in specific places on the individual movie you're supposed. To be making. And I don't really understand, I guess, in this day and age, like, I feel like, yes, I understand why you give someone a franchise to make their own movie.

But what I don't understand is why do you assume that giving someone a franchise is just going to make their film successful? Or why do you take they keep or they kept doing that in the Marvel world was finding these like up and coming filmmakers and be like, yeah, you're cool. You've got talent. We want to bring you in on this. And then not letting them do everything that they did on their movies that led them to that point.

They're like, but now we want you to do exactly what we tell you to do. Like, then why hire? Why not just find some random person off the street? Like, why hire legitimately talented filmmakers and then tie their hands to the point that they can't do anything they want to do? And then just make what you want to make anyway.

If you want to do it, just make what you want to make anyway. And don't bother bringing in these up and coming filmmakers that, I don't know, I guess at least they get to cash a paycheck. But half the time they put such a bad attachment to their name after that, that it hurts their career as much as they got some money out of it. Look at Chloe Zhao. I mean, yeah.

I mean, she's still trying to recover from that. Which, by the way, Eternals, not that bad of a movie. Like, not any worse than some of those other Marvel movies that came out afterwards, like that third Spider-Man movie, or that second Ant-Man movie, or that second Doctor Strange movie. And yet, you know, the Eternals is like some sort of, you know, again, like some sort of like, you've been blacklisted out of the industry now. And I was like, what?

I like several of those you mentioned, so... I said I do or don't like them, it's just they're all over the place in terms of quality. They're definitely inconsistent, and even within their own stories, because then jump to the third Ant-Man movie, and you're like, wait, what are we doing now? Or wait, no, excuse me, I like the second Ant-Man movie, the third Ant-Man movie is the third one yeah it's uh it's fucking cgi-o-matic or whatever the hell that movie's like title should have been like it's god it's got its moments it's trying but like it is a mess really so Yeah, and that's the thing. It's like so many of these movies are messes for different reasons.

This movie is a mess, I think, for the oldest reason available, which is I don't really want to make this movie, but I'm going to make the movie I want to make and try to make it fit into this box, which is like, it's not anything. Like that in and of itself. That's been going on since the dawn of Hollywood. Right. It's like, I want to make this movie.

You want me to make that movie. Where can I get those two things to overlap? And like, I think Rob Zombie, Rob Zombie did a better job than most people would have in this situation. I mean, again, to go back to the Star Wars of it all, like I think he did a better job than J.J. Abrams did.

Not J.J., I guess Rian Johnson did with that second movie. And I think he did a better job than J.J. did with that third movie in terms of course correcting out of a course correct. I was just nothing but course correcting in JJ's mind. It is. It's a mess.

It's all it's. And that's the thing. Like this movie in and of itself is a mess, but I don't think it's as much of a mess. It's a different mess. It's a mess that isn't trying to do that stuff.

It's just a mess because Rob was like, I just want to do this. Who cares? Like I'll come back to that Michael Myers thing later, but right now I want to make this scene. Like, Oh, okay. I mean, you can.

You're the director, but this isn't going to hold together at the end of everything. But okay, go ahead. So that brings me to the thing that I am the most excited to talk with you about, because I think it's the thing that is the most interesting, one of the most interesting things about this movie. All right. The fucking ending.

Of the director's cut, not the original. I was going to say, which one? Because there are at least two variations. So the original film's ending, as it were, is she kills Michael and then sometime later is in an asylum. In the director's cut, which actually makes sense, hilariously, the version no one would have seen when this film came out, Laurie attempts to kill Dr.

Loomis. Which again, that's the part I said had happened. Right. And then is shot and killed question mark? Well, it's like it ends the same way because I thought we've got that scene.

So it's like he plays both cards. It's like, we've got that scene of her getting shot. By the police. Like, repeatedly a whole lot, but then doesn't it also fade into her in the asylum? It cuts to her in the asylum, which doesn't explain what does her being, well, yeah, well, A, it doesn't explain anything, but B also doesn't explain what does her being in the asylum.

That she didn't die, I guess, is our first thing. It's like, oh, that 48 times the cops just shot her didn't kill her, much like Michael getting a bullet to the brain. So something about those Myers, they don't go down easy after the first couple. First couple went out pretty easy, but those last two were rough. So, I mean, there's that, but then I guess, see, I could almost understand if we're trying to come back around to almost more like a four ending of like, and now the victim becomes the new killer.

And that's what I thought they were going for. We're setting her up for the new Michael Myers. Like, and that would be fine, especially since it's tied to her bloodline. She should be Michael Myers. She's got crazy Myers blood in her, but, we we know that's not gonna happen number one because this movie didn't do well but also like where are we going with that story are we really gonna come back for a three in some universe and have her escape from the asylum and go out killing people because really that sounds like the most interesting thing we've gotten to at all in any of these two movies so I guess we.

Should have gone for that third one I it was and that's what I don't understand it's like we have so much in this movie that is a interesting idea that doesn't go anywhere and And for me, the biggest part of this movie that is that is the ending, because it seems completely uninterested in telling a take a step back. Right. Because I think you would agree like this movie is wildly tonally all over. And it is not clear to me what the point of this film is in terms of the story that it's trying to tell. And I think that the ending of the movie really cuts to what I'm getting at, because I assume, as do you, clearly, that if the ending were what is the director's cut, which let's just say that that's the original ending, I get where Zombie's going.

Maybe it doesn't work very well, sure. But I do understand what he's going for, right? As I'm sure you do. Like you said, it is the Halloween four of it all. Yeah.

Which again, even they dropped the ball on that immediately. We're just like, no, no, no, no, nevermind. Remember what we did at the end of four? Screw that. We're doing something else in five.

They pulled an alien three. They were like, fuck, it doesn't matter. They are. also didn't follow through with their own cool ending. So like, I guess that's sort of what he was trying to do. But like, even in that, we play both cards and we're like, but she's dead, but she's also in the asylum.

You choose. So we already have a, which way do you want it to go? Or was she always in the asylum and this is just all going on in her head because now she's on the heroin. Oh dear God, don't put that idea in their head, please. Well, it's all in her head.

Everyone was seeing the white horse too. So this was her in the asylum on the smack. So, and that's, and that's the thing I also really have an issue with is if you're going to end this movie with like, well, she's in the asylum now. It's like, why? Like, have her be dead.

If they were going to put her away. What is the worst thing about her being dead, really? She shot her brother in the head last movie. Why didn't she go to an asylum or at least go to jail? Or like, we were just like, nah, he killed a bunch of people.

It's fine. That was self-defense. Even though we all witnessed you do it and he was. Unarmed and you put the gun point blank to his head. So that kind of just seems like murder.

And clicked it a bunch of times on. Top of everything else. Like, you will pretend like it's self-defense because he murdered a bunch of people. It's fine. I don't, yeah, I don't, I guess I don't get it.

Like, at the end of the day, when you have a film like this, and a franchise, mind you, that's already done something like this with the Daniel Harris character. What, in, like you said, Halloween 4. 4, yeah. Why not, why, why not do that? Why not deliver on that?

I mean, that's been the threat since 4. So, like, why not, as we're coming into this, like I said, like, let's... Let's pass the baton, which is what they keep teasing with. But like, OK, she murdered her brother at the beginning of that movie. Now this entire movie, she's the killer.

She's insane. Loomis has become a dick. So she's hunting him down. So she actually has motivation of something to go do and murders a bunch of people along the way, I'm sure, because it's going to be a slasher. And then in the end, like, she's the crazy one and she either goes to the asylum or they shoot her in the street like they do.

So any of that seems like it would be a more interesting story and one that we haven't seen before. And I don't understand why they didn't just do that here. Like, why not just do that movie this time? Like, if you, like we've already alluded to, if you know, if you're Rob Zombie and you know that this is it, why not just do that here? Why not just do that movie?

Why did you feel the need to... I don't know. Just make a. 5 is what this feels like. This doesn't feel like a full movie.

It feels like a. 5. It feels like Halloween one and a half. Once you get into this and you start seeing, oh, I could be going there. maybe don't back out of your deal and be like, I, you, these producers suck and I don't want to be around them. But at the same time, I came up with this third movie I want to make.

So like, why not go ahead, do. Your weird mountain man 0.5 in the middle here, come back and make a part three. That is all Lori, like going crazy and murdering people. And is at least a new cool thing. That's like, Still continuing the Michael Myers story.

It's just with a new Myers. And I'm like, that's cool. I've I've wanted something like that. That's a whole new different take on it for years. But like, we never really commit to that.

The closest we get is the new part three that gives it to a new person, but not even a person that it'd be. Again, it would make more sense if it was old lady Laurie, but it's not. It's some random kid that we've never met before. So they tried it and did it wrong. Even there, really.

Well, that's I think to your point, like it's not it's not like when given the opportunity to do this the right way, they really did. And it's like this is so many times the Halloween franchise has been kind of taken for a ride with what the filmmakers are wanting to do, because everybody has a different idea as to what Halloween is. But I haven't really seen a Halloween movie other than the first one. That is something truly like interesting and exciting. And the first one's not interesting and exciting.

The first one was just novel. At the time, that's it. We hadn't seen that before. But it's like, sorry, that's not, it's not exciting anymore. It's not.

And like, that's what makes it a classic is that it's a classic. You watch it because you've seen it a million times. It's fun to watch it. It's like, you know, it's like eating your favorite meal. Like it's, you're not eating it because you've never had it before.

You're eating it because it elicits something within you that's comforting. Watching the original Halloween was, for a lot of people is something that is a tradition at Halloween time. And for myself included, these movies are not part of that. And it's because these movies aren't trying to do that. Like Rob Zombie saw those original Halloween movies and went, I want to make my own thing that is suited to my taste.

But he didn't go all the way because I've seen what the movies that he wants to do that are suited to his tastes are. And they are not a mess, too. Right. Well, they are a mess, but they don't at least pull anything. yeah and they and they follow through with whatever weird story he's trying to tell which this seems like it just keeps starting and stopping and changing directions and like oh yeah I'm supposed to be doing this too like so The other ones, at least he follows through like you're watching the devil's rejects. That's the story he wanted to tell from the beginning to the end.

And it is, in fact, the devil's rejects. And it is there is no confusing it for something else. This movie fails at being a Halloween movie, first and foremost, which for me is fine. Like, I don't really care. I think we've talked about this maybe a little bit on the last episode.

I feel like it bears repeating here. I'm not a super big Halloween fan as it is. I don't really care about the franchise. Like, it's not the one that I resonate with. That's Nightmare on Elm Street.

And even then, I'm not going to sit here and be like, well, that's not the way that Freddy Krueger was. It's like, shut up, dude. I am going to tell myself to shut up. Like, it just... If that's not the way he was, if that's not the way he is in other movies, but that's the way he is in this movie, as long as it's not a sequel to something else, and even then, if it is a sequel, it doesn't really fucking matter.

Like, this movie is allowed to do its own thing. It can be problematic for doing its own thing and be tonally inconsistent and at odds with the other films. But that doesn't automatically discount it because it's doing something different, which is the part that always irked me about Last Jedi. It's like, well, it's different and I don't like it. It's like, well, that's not a reason to not like something other than you just not like it.

But that's subjective. Like, objectively, Last Jedi has problems that are nothing to do with you not liking it. And same with this movie. This movie has problems that have nothing to do with it being a Halloween movie. We don't even have to leave the franchise.

We actually have the perfect example. Halloween 3. It is 100% its own thing, and yet it works as its own story. It is batshit crazy. But more crazy than anything else they do in this franchise at any other point, frankly.

If you're okay with that level of crazy in your movie, which over the years, it's found a huge cult following. People love it now. But as long as you're signed on for that level of weird that it is, Like it is solid. It tells its story. It even has a great ending to cap it off.

So I'm like, that is the perfect way to do. Hey, guess what? This isn't anything like these movies you're used to, but it works as its own movie. And if we got any of these other ones that did that, because I was trying to think, I was like, is there any that works solid as its own thing? Four is pretty good, but again, it's so tied to the overall mythology.

But three, being not at all tied to the mythology, still works as its own Halloween themed, once again, around the holiday, not around the character, not around the ongoing saga. But it still works as a movie by itself and tells a cool story and a weird-ass story that does not conform to what you would expect out of a normal little movie, especially not in a slasher franchise, because it's not even a slasher. And I would even go as far as to say, if you want to watch a good Rob Zombie slasher film, go watch Devil's Rejects. I like House of a Thousand Gorges. Again, it's not original, but it's more...

I feel like it's more of him totally following through with something he wants to do. Again, it's stealing from a bunch of other movies, one in particular, but... It's super like committed to what he is trying to tell. And he does create his own characters along the way. And he sees those characters through and they seem like their own real characters.

By the end of the movie, it doesn't change and force itself to do something else. Like it finishes out that story the way that he wanted it to. So again, I stand by the first one is like maybe one of his best things he's ever done. The original Halloween or the original Rob Zombie, the original Halloween. No, the House of a Thousand Corpses.

Oh, yeah. No, I agree. I think that it's probably his best movie. Yeah. Again, I think visually it has a ton of really interesting stuff in it.

And that story just does his own weird thing. It's a bastardized overall outline very heavily. But once you get in there, it totally does its own thing and follows its characters. And I'm like, if he did more of that, I think he would be more successful. He keeps taking these weird roads along the way.

And like, it doesn't seem like it follows through the way that even that way. No, I agree. I think, you know, it's it's hard to it's hard to be successful in this. And it's even harder to make a film that people resonate with. But Rob Zombie's, I think, to your point, his first film really is, I think, what people wanted from Rob Zombie in terms of his kind of stylings.

And he has never really gone back to he I mean, it's similar on The Devil's Rejects. But again, I think it just turns everything up worse. Like it all just gets overly gratuitous even more than the first movie. All of a sudden these people are out in the real world and it's like, I never really wanted to see what them interacting with the real world would look like. And their characters seem to, I guess they progress, but they just seem like they drastically change from the first movie and they become more annoying.

She specifically does. But even like, I love Sid Haig to death, but he still spent so much of that time like bickering with them or like, it's just weird dynamic between the three of them. And we spend the whole movie with the three of them. So like it's a weird dynamic that I don't feel like was a problem in the first movie. So I think at least it follows through and is still a solid him telling his story with his characters.

It's more it's more well rounded from that angle. But again, I don't enjoy it as much as the first movie. No, I for as much as I'm not a Rob Zombie fan, the House of a Thousand Corpses is probably the only movie of his that I would be like, that's the one that's the important. If you're only going to watch one Rob Zombie movie, that's the one, you know. To what end, I guess, is always my response.

Like, I wondered if it was like I remember the first time that like, is this just a weird one off thing? Like, we know he's a horror fan based on all of his references. But I'm like, when it was just the one movie that he did, I was like, is this just the cool side project he wanted to do? And He got that out of the system and he's done now and he's going to go back to making albums. And like, I was okay with that.

Like, I was like, that was a cool movie. Way to go, Rob. And like, let's, you know, go back to what you were doing. And like, he still went back and he makes more music, but like, he seemed like he was never really done with making movies, but he never fully committed to making them what they needed. To be most of the time.

That's why I always find him as, as just a frustrating character. Like I, like I've said, he's very talented. I just, I wish, He could use it better. He could just sort of hone it into a good movie every time instead of like throwing things at the screen and like some things work, some things don't. Like, well, wouldn't that be cool?

Well, wouldn't this be cool? And it's like, yeah, it would. But just because it would doesn't mean you have to do that. It doesn't mean it fits with the thing you threw next to it. Like you gotta make it all work together as a complete movie, not just a series of scenes.

Like it's got to hold together as a story. Has Rob Zombie ever worked on like a anthology series? I feel like that would be such a good thing for him to do. You know, does seem. Like it would again, like he would have to conform a little to like the format and like he would have like, I'm assuming some sort of showrunner or producer that would come along and be like, hey, why don't you not do this?

But you can do this. But let me see here. Hmm. Most of it's all movies. He is in.

He did the fake trailer in Grindhouse, but that's only a few minutes. So you don't have to. Have a story. Oh, no. So he never has.

So let's see. Everything else is pretty much his own. Oh, he did an episode of CSI Miami. So that might be what you're looking because he is going to have to stick to the overall format. Dude's going to have to take his sunglasses off or put them on.

And then we're going to have adultery screaming. So we got to stick to that. You know, there's a lot of hardcore things. He's going to have to keep it inside the, the bumpers on that episode. So maybe what you need is CSI Miami.

I would really be shocked if that were the case. I, and like I said, like, like I've said before, like I don't mind Rob Zombie as a musician, but I think as a filmmaker, I, Okay. I think that, but let's just take like 10 steps back. Okay. Is Rob Zombie a better filmmaker than he is a musician?

No. Is he a good musician though? Yes. Is he a good filmmaker? Yes.

Yes. Again, visually, is he a good storyteller? No. And storytelling and writing is the hard part of the movie. What's the hard?

And as we know, it's the hardest part to nail. You can throw all the money in the world at all kinds of things. But if your script sucks, your script sucks. There's just no way around it. And if you can't write your way out of a paper bag, you can't write your way out of a paper bag.

And that just is. It's not me saying that. It's not you saying that. It's not you agreeing with me. It's just, if you can't write, you can't write.

I think we have the key to his whole career. Because if you go back before that, most of his big, super popular videos were directed by him. So maybe in this day and age, when the biggest thing in the world. Is music videos... Maybe what he needs to be is a music video director because he can do great visuals.

He knows the industry. He can deliver music like he. Everything else about that works. And yet you don't really have to worry about story at all. If you want to work in a running theme, you can, but it can just be random scenes thrown together like you're trying to do on your movies.

So maybe that's what he needs is just make music videos. You're good at that. Well, I was going to say, I think that that's kind of my bigger takeaway from this Rob Zombie experience, you you know, the me and you watching these films together is I genuinely don't find what he does to be off-putting. from a, this is what someone else is into like aspect. And I, I know that there are so many people that vibe with what Rob Zombie is into. Like this is a me and you thing, really not an everybody else thing.

I'm not saying everybody else, but like the people that like his movies, like his movies and I'm not dragging them, but I don't think that this is at the top of their list for his movies. I'm not even sure how many of these Halloween movies are above the Something like a Devil's Rejects or a House of a Thousand Corpses. Yeah, I think there are people that are big fans of his and will rattle off a bunch of movies that they like and probably not mention either of the Halloween movies. Which I understand because as Halloween movies, they're not successful. As Rob Zombie Halloween movies, they're not able to go as far as one would have wanted.

And that is the shame for me is like I do defend this movie enough. If someone talks about it, it's like people like walking up and down the street like Rob Zombie's Halloween, too. How do you feel about that? Like nobody is doing that. But Rob Zombie does get mentioned by film fans and film critics like myself and yourself fairly frequently, and especially in these kind of derided tones.

And I'm not saying that those tones aren't understood, but they're not deserved because Rob Zombie is like any other filmmaker, just like a Chris Nolan, just like a Tarantino, just like a David Fincher, really, or a Scorsese, like They do their thing really well. If you don't like their thing, that's kind of on you. You don't have to watch. Well, and he's consistently done it. Like, for as much as I thought, you know, in 2003, maybe it was a weird one-off thing you just wanted to get out of the system.

But, like, every couple of years, he's put out another movie. And, like, they're not always huge, like, for regular audiences. But in the horror scene... they're a big deal when a new one comes out and the Rob Zombie fans are out there and they're watching them and they... usually seem to like them the last one is the exception most of the time but I feel like it's hard enough to get a movie made but for somebody to consistently put out another movie that they feel is their vision like I applaud that and like more power to you keep doing it again I'm still gonna have problems with a lot of them but I'm glad that he's still managing to put together stuff that he cares about I just wish it was a little more honed.

Well, and if you look at the last things he's done since Halloween 2, everything he's worked on since Halloween 2 has been self-produced. Yeah. Which is great. And his own story. It's not him picking up another franchise or other properties.

It's all his ideas that he just runs with and does whatever. Which, again, is maybe a way to be more successful is to not be tied to anybody else's story or goings on at all. But you know what? Hey, there's some black and white imagery in this movie with Michael Myers' mask on a giant skeleton, so. Again, those shots, they're a lot of really good shots.

And I just, you can go through and just like still frame and just be like, look at this. Like, this looks amazing. And I'm not going to argue. Like, So maybe it just needs to be a DP. Like, I don't know.

Well, and that's what I wonder. Like, you know, there are some directors that are just better visually than they are at writing scripts and not everybody can write. Not everybody has the ability to write and not everybody has the ability to direct. And there are a ton of people that are like out there consistently spending their entire career being a cinematographer. And like, that's what they want to do.

They're not there like trying to work their way up to Roger Deakins, man. Like there's known for doing that thing that he does. And that's about it. Like he's never really gone and directed his own thing or written anything else. That's, Just what he does.

There's nothing wrong with that. You don't have to be like a quadruple threat. Yeah, your Dean Cundys of the world know what they're doing. And like, this is my strong suit and I'm going to show up and I'm going to do a damn good job. And sometimes it's going to be.

For a director and it works and it's a great movie. And other times I just did a great job. So it's going to look great whether you like the story or not. That's up to somebody else because I'm just here to make sure this Looks amazing. And it does.

So yeah, maybe that's what it is. And I'm with you. Like that's, I think, you know, Rob Zombie's best suited for the visual medium. And, you know, someone I just mentioned, David Fincher, he came from the world of music videos. But just because you come from the world of music videos doesn't mean you don't know what you're doing.

And just because you come from the world of music videos doesn't mean you do know what you're doing. Maybe more so in the world of visuals, but definitely not more so in the world of writing a script. Again, it's not necessary for music videos. So it doesn't, it's not a one-to-one that you're going to bring that over. And even if it is, it's not to the extent that a feature-length film would.

Yeah, you can do it. You can have a plot line going through the background of your music video, but it's not essential. It's not even all that important from the selling the song aspect of it. Like the studio just wants you to get this out there, or at least used to. Now nobody really cares.

Even though videos are. Kind of back, they just don't, They don't treat them like they're important anymore. But like when you see the new ones come out for these huge artists now, there's a million platforms for them to pop up on now. And like it's easier for everybody to see them, but they just don't treat them like they're a big deal like they did, which is a shame because there's actually some really good videos going on out there. But people just don't give them any importance anymore.

Well, there's nowhere to watch them. Don't you know MTV? It's YouTube. I know. Don't you know MTV is gone, Brian?

It always lives on in my heart. And it's everywhere now. It doesn't need to be a channel because the channel platform fell apart. But the fact that you can watch. any video you ever want streaming on some service and or YouTube, you can watch it on your phone. You can watch it on your watch, you know?

So like, to me, it should be more of a thing now because you can see it on so many different places now. And there's so many other people out there that are clued into watching short. Form things in particular now. So like, it seems like it should be bigger. And yet somehow, once again, it just didn't transfer over to this new wave of entertainment and new delivery services like it just doesn't hit the way that it did back in the MTV day no and and you said it yourself like expecting that someone who directs a music video is going to be able to direct a film as well I understand that there are people that have made that leap, but not everybody.

And frankly, not most. Just because you're an actor doesn't mean you're good at other things. Look at Bruce Willis and Eddie Murphy and a whole host of other people who attempted to branch out, speaking of the music of it all. And they did a great job. Return of Bruno is a wonderful album.

Return of Bruno. This man is a liar, folks. Thank you. So do I. And it's wonderful. i own that shit on vinyl hey if it don't kill you it just makes you stronger yeah my girl wants to party all the time but yeah i i heard it i that's the thing like not everybody is unsuccessful at being a double or triple threat but not everybody can be.

I recently heard that song if not that entire album was done to prove a point. It was a bet I mean, it sounds like, what, Scientology? Like Heinlein and fucking Whatchamajiggy Hubbard sitting at a bar together. He's like, I bet you can't make a religion. It's like, betcha I can.

Betcha I can. Well, that was, yeah, it was like him doing his Stevie Wonder on SNL, and they were like, you can't sing. And they were like, betcha I can. How about I put an album out? And all of that came about because of that.

I will say, between the return of Bruno and Eddie Murphy's sung album, Neither one of them are nearly as good as Macho Man Randy Savage's rap album. So if we're talking about double or triple threats, ooh, yeah. I mean, Macho Man is here. He'll cook it. You're a big homo.

Oh, yeah. That's like literally what he says in the rap. It's like, Hogan, you're a big sissy. And it's like, Jesus Christ, the 90s were a wild time to be alive, folks. Hogan was a horrible human being.

I mean, Hogan is a horrible human being, brother. He was. Oh, he is. I mean, even in hell, he's probably sitting there like, you're telling me, dude, that there's not a place in hell for people that don't look like me? Like, oh, Jesus, Hogan, you're still on that?

Even now? Yeah, yeah. Not everybody can do everything. You know, like, and that's, I think ultimately with Rob Zombie, like I, you look at his wife, right? Look at his wife as the, as kind of the example.

She can't do everything either. So why did he think he could? That's my question. And if you need that proven to you, once again, go watch her new music video, which is on YouTube right now. And you'll be sorry one, and you'll know that we're right because she does not need to be singing.

At least she's not in this movie a whole lot. And when she is in this film, she is just... She looks nice and doesn't say much. Which again, I'm not saying that as any attack on women in general. I'm just saying her in particular, when he puts her in movies and has her...

Again, devil's rejects. All of her dialogue is atrocious. She just has this high-pitched laugh that she's constantly doing. It all gets super grating. Whereas here...

She looks very nice. She's not saying too much. She's just pulling their strings and making her kids do horrible things. And then it's very nicely photographed and like she's hanging out with a horse. So it's like this is the best use of her maybe ever really.

Yeah, I would I would I would be inclined to agree with you. Yeah, I would be inclined to agree with you. I don't think that she adds anything to the proceedings in this film. I think more than anything else, it's just like, oh, look, his wife is in this movie. And maybe a normal person who doesn't know Rob Zombie doesn't think that, but I've got to assume if you're watching a Rob Zombie movie, you know who this person is.

I mean, who is this woman that keeps showing up in all these films? Like, what? Like, even the first one, I was just like, what? wait, isn't that the, cause they were already kind of together. Like, I don't think she had his name yet in that first one, but like, I was already like, that's kind of why she's the other main lead in this. Right.

Cause otherwise I hadn't seen anything before that. So I feel like that's kind of how she got in her foot in the door there. And, you know, I think it's very funny, you know, some weird anachronisms in this movie that we haven't mentioned are kind of just weird idiosyncrasies, I guess. Do you notice how Daniel Roebuck plays Herman Munster in this movie for a minute or two? Or I guess Frankenstein?

That's probably what he wanted to do. But at that point, it was too far. You know, he'd aged out. He had to be grandpa. But like, again, Jeff Daniels is in that scene with him, which is even crazier.

Yeah. Again, his new muse shows up in this movie. Jeff Daniel Phillips is. Then in like every movie after that and looks like Rob Zombie and takes his place in his new stand-in. I do like Jeff Daniel Phillips though.

He seems like he's having fun. Like every time I see him like as himself, like he always seems like he's just having a good time. So I'm like, well, he seems like a genuine person at least. So I like that more than, you know, a lot of your weird actors that they bring in horror movies that just seem like they're super serious and like, or trying to take themselves very serious where he, he always seems like he's very laid back about it all. So that's, that's cool.

Yeah, no, I, I like, I like him a lot. I think it's very funny. Like when they have him opposite Tyler Maine in that scene, uh, and he's, he looks, he's a big guy, but even, but not that big. Yeah. He's not that big.

He looked, even he looks small opposite Tyler Maine, which I really appreciate. Like that's, Those are the successes of this movie. Like the best, the best thing I can say about this movie is it makes Michael Myers for like one time in this entire, like in this entire franchise, they make him an interesting character. Well, and even like the, using that example, him with the little kid. Like that shot.

And then the kid is like, are you a giant? And I'm like, yeah, he is actually. No shit, he's a fucking giant. Look at how big he is. So that scene, again, of the things that stick to the wall, I'm like, that scene's pretty cool.

Like in the right movie, that could work as a scene with Michael Myers. It's weird that it's thrown in this movie, but for that moment, like that's a cool shot. That's a fun scene. I guess what's weird to me about this movie is why not just make it a movie where it's Michael Myers, like you said, doing the Bruce Banner. Yeah.

I mean, well, how weird would that have been? We skipped over the most Hulk thing. He picks up a car and flips it over. That was the most Hulk moment. I was like, good God, he is just the Hulk now.

And he barely talks. Yeah. He just... Michael Myers smash. If he makes any...

He doesn't make any noise at all, I don't think, in this movie. He's just... Yeah. Mute. Well, he spared us from his one line in the last movie, because you know he was supposed to have a line in the first Halloween, which...

In a different movie, it would almost be funny what his one line was going to be. Well, he technically has one line in this movie, doesn't he? I guess it depends on what cut you're watching. Yeah. But at the end of the last one, he was supposed to say boo, which is pretty funny.

Which is amazing. On Halloween, that's spooky. And his one line is boo. But thankfully, I think even Rob was like, oh, that's going to come off real cheesy. Nope.

Let's throw that out. So they didn't go with it. But yeah. I love that he has one line in this movie. Where does, I'm assuming at the end there, what does he say?

He says, die, Salumis. Which I vibe with. Like, I enjoyed that. Like, I enjoy that they give him that line. I do. think that there was like such an opportunity in this movie to make this a story about Michael getting revenge on Loomis and just leave Laurie out of it complete.

Like that's, you know, I think that if I had wanted to see a movie, if you ask me what this movie, what I would have wanted out of this movie after the end of the last movie, not that Loomis was at all antagonistic towards Michael because he really wasn't. He definitely wasn't in the first movie. No, if you had asked me though at the end of the last movie what I would have wanted from this movie- I guess my answer would have been, well, I would have wanted to see Michael doing something he'd never done before. I don't know how much I would have wanted to see of Loomis or Laurie. But if you're going to do Loomis, have Loomis be so different from Loomis.

But like they just don't do enough with it. And Michael isn't in this enough. Again, it goes back to that Halloween three, the David Gordon Green movie. Like, why is he not in that movie anymore? why is he not in this movie more like this is the only other time other I mean I said never but I guess maybe other than that fucking Michael Myers in Halloween 3 where he's in the sewer like that's maybe the only other time where I'm like genuinely interested in him as a character otherwise he's intentionally a cypher well and at that point. Why not just work him out all together and then it's more of the legacy of Michael Myers just hand over the evil to someone else, which is what they do essentially.

And they, well, they, they pussied out. I mean, they did that like half in half out bullshit where it's like, well, but not really though, because he looks into the eyes of him, but it doesn't do anything. It's like, but what does it even matter then? I guess I've never understood what the... But I'll tell you, though, put that movie up against most of the Halloween movies, and I'd rather watch that movie over most of them other than the original.

Because it is what this movie is not, which is weird and successful at being weird. I think this movie has made me appreciate that Halloween 3 a lot more, because that movie is more successful than this one. It at least hangs together. This movie does not... Rewatching it for this episode...

This movie does not hang together. This movie is such a disjointed mess. It's just broken, yeah. I can't tell anybody to watch this movie on its own. You have to have seen the last movie.

And if I'm going to suggest you watch the last movie, I'm just going to tell you to watch the original one. On YouTube, for fucking free even. Is there anything better than the original one? No, and again, I think that's because the original doesn't even have to be about all these specifics. Oh, because the original works as the original.

It's well, but I mean, it's, it's, it's own concept. It's its own. That's why it's not as action packed and bloody and over the top because it's working on theme. You know, it's working at the base level where this one drops the ball almost immediately. It's working as like, here's the overall arcing story.

Here's the creepy vibe. Here's the boogeyman plot line, which is really all you want out of a Halloween story. So like the Michael Myers of it all just happened to work and catch on. And guess what? That's why we did number two.

Like they weren't going to do anything else with it, but because it caught on the way it did, they had to. But it just worked as its own one off thing that first time because it was so well done and it was so like universal and simple in the way that it approached horror that That's why it still works. Like even now I can watch it and it's creepy because it's just a simple platform of how to tell a scary story on Halloween. Yeah, I watch parts of this movie and I wish that they had expounded further. Like Rob Zombie was like, I've got these great ideas, but I just don't I don't have anybody else helping me hone them down.

Like that scene with Loomis with the like clearly what would end up being like a true crime fan. Yeah. And he's like, get this fucking guy out of here. I'm sorry. He would not react that way.

He's literally complaining about not being recognized by people like well and having like fallen out with stuff like you're not going to react that way. Like there's interesting ideas here that even when they introduce them, they don't do anything with them. It's like Rob Zombie. You need someone else to come in and go. Here are the four ideas that are interesting that you've brought up.

Let's go further with those ideas. Don't just keep introducing ideas. Well, and that one. Doesn't make sense to me at all anyway, because not even the Loomis of it. I'm like, is... is he talking about himself?

Because like, I'm like, what is Rob Zombie saying with that part of it? It's like, this guy is super hardcore into horror and like, he's into real, you know, he wants the, he wants more. Not that bitch Braid, bitch Bundy and Dahmer. Bundy and Dahmer, like, he wants even more extreme murders and i'm like what wait so are you trying to make a comment about you know ghoulish horror fans but i'm like but you are like the king of those kind of guys like you are the one that's into making super over-the-top gory gratuitous violent movies like so what what is the point of that line coming from you that was a really weird aspect i was just like i Is that a joke? Like, are you saying that on purpose because that's you?

I don't know. That was the weird part for me in a different horror movie that would be there to comment on these type of movies. But like in this movie, it makes no sense. Well, that's what I mean. Like it literally just needed someone else to come in and be like, this makes sense.

This doesn't. This makes sense. This doesn't like that's all this movie needed because it's, it's that I would say it's, and I don't know how you would feel about this. Like that's how close this movie is. It's not that far away from being like, would you agree that the last movie is not a bad movie?

It's an interesting movie. It has its faults, but like it, it hangs together as a movie. Yeah. I will give you that. It holds together as a story and it tells you that story from beginning to end.

Way more than this one. This movie's not that far off because we've seen him do it elsewhere. That's my point. This one's just harder to do as the continued tie-in to Halloween. Like it, it has more working in its favor.

That's the non Halloween stuff. So trying to then keep it as a sequel to that last movie, but trying to pick and choose, like I, I, you'd almost. Have to do like a almost complete rewrite. I feel like, because it's, The only things that are working are the things that aren't tied to that last movie. So if you have to come in and do a sequel, you'd have to get rid of most of the stuff that I actually like in this movie, unfortunately.

Well, and that's I think that that's the thing. I think if it's if it's me making this movie. You just make something that is completely away from the last, which is the stuff that works for me and you in this. And you do that because you're Rob Zombie and you didn't have a soured relationship with the fucking producers of this movie. That's the problem, right?

I mean, that's the ultimate issue I have with where this is now become as a as a film is that. This was a three picture deal that became a two picture deal because of one of the worst people in Hollywood being allowed to be anywhere near this film. That person being Harvey Weinstein. And then we go further than that because this movie then ends up feeling like a truncated weird film because the people who made this movie. didn't want to make any more movies, even though they were clearly thinking of three movies when they made the first. Let's not sit here and pretend like Rob Zombie didn't have an idea of what these three movies were going to be.

I'm sure outside of the I mean, by the time he got into making that first movie, I think he already knew. But it was like David Gordon Green's Exorcist, right? Like, that's the way I look. like it's that same it's that same thing where it's like I'm sure don't let's sit here and not pretend like David Gordon Green didn't know where he was going with those exes he had three they gave him what three movies Rob Zombie knew what he was doing here it's just you can't blame it all on that because the last movie's not amazing the last movie's fine that's the ultimate I think problem with this movie is it could have been good but it's not the movie it's not as good as isn't really that good anyways it's just in comparison interesting like I mean, I never liked him to be- He's still working that game show.

I never liked him to begin with. So it's not like, it's fine. Like his schtick, I don't know, like those kinds of guys' schticks never resonated with me. Like Jeff Keighley and Chris Hardwick. Like they're the same of just like, we represent nerd culture.

And I'm like, okay, like- yeah yeah but that's i mean is that not what they are though they're like arbiters of nerd culture they definitely feels like especially in the beginning because he was like the first one that sort of made it over the hump and like got out there and got a huge audience because of that and he was banking on the geeky things that he was into and the guests that he could bring in because of it so right i feel like he was very competent at that job but whether or not you like him that's the thing. I always felt it was almost weird. Once you got in there and started listening to the shows, it's like, he's like always playing the nice guy card. And I'm like, almost too much. Like to the point, I.

Don't know that I trust that. So like, that was just a little weird to me. Are you in fact a nice guy? Yeah, I was like, and then when the stories came, I was like, oh, maybe it was all an act. But then I think that girl was kind of crazy.

So I don't know. I don't want to sell them down the river for the wrong reasons. But I also never got a really great vibe so i don't know what to do no i don't know that he belongs in this movie either No, there's a lot of weird stuff in this movie. Chris Hardwick and Weird Al being in this movie is just one of those things. Again, it's a strange, strange film that, again, that Halloween 3, the David Gordon Green one, is a strange film as well.

But its strangeness is still held together. It's not just all over the place completely. This movie is genuinely one of the more all over the place things I've ever seen. Yeah. I don't I don't think the third one in that series is even that strange.

It's just strange in the middle of a Halloween trilogy, like as its own movie. If it once again, if you somehow removed the Michael Myers of it all, which I feel like that movie holds. Michael Myers is barely even is almost and is almost done. But if you took out. All the Jamie Lee and all that other stuff and it just worked as its own separate movie, I think it would be pretty successful.

But this is just like crazy all over the map stuff. And like with or without the Michael Myers as it stands, like it's still kind of a mess. So like it it once again, it would need to be totally rewritten to tell either version of these stories it's trying to tell. And for me, the biggest bummer about this movie is you can't watch this on its own. This movie is hard, not hard to follow, but hard to find intelligible.

On its own, like as someone who watched the last film like twice in the last week, but as someone who wouldn't if you had never seen like movie before this one, you would watch this movie and be like, what? What is this? What is going on? Because it is completely unintelligible for anyone other than someone who is, I guess, a. die-hard fan of the last movie, which I don't know if that was a thing in 2009. Well, and even if you like the last movie, this one is still so drastically different in so many ways from the last movie that I feel like that's why it also upset fans of the last movie.

So, like, I don't know who it's for because, like, it doesn't work on its own. It doesn't work for fans of the last movie. It doesn't work for fans of the franchise overall. So, like... Again, it just.

Came together for all the wrong reasons, I guess. And now we have this weird movie and it's weird for weird sake. And that's kind of the best thing you can take from. And it's funny to me that it's. It being weird for weird sake shouldn't be an issue because there are so many other movies that I enjoy because they're weird for weird sake.

But this movie, it's just it's hard to be unintelligible and weird for weird sake. And I don't really want to. I don't know. I don't want to watch a movie that's unintelligibly weird because there are movies that I can enjoy that are just weird and I actually can enjoy. And it's not that, you know, maybe that is the like one drop in the bucket of it being a Rob Zombie thing.

I'm just not a Rob Zombie guy. You know, at the end of the day, I'm just not. You can see the strings on this one. That's the thing. If it's just one of those weird movies that you're like, what is going on?

But this one, you can see all the moving pieces trying to still put together a Halloween story. And that's what keeps getting in the way. So you're just like, well, it's still weird and it still doesn't make sense. But now we've got this other stuff going on. It's trying to lead me over here.

It's not even a complete movie. Like it's not even a complete movie. It's a, you know, for me, this might be the best comparative. And I think a lot of people really dislike this movie because it's, again, so atypical of the franchise it's in. This movie probably has more in common with Quantum of Solace than most films that are a second in a trilogy do.

Like that movie is really hard to, if you're not watching it immediately after watching the first one, Yeah, it doesn't really work on its own. No, it does not work on its own at all because it is not really a sequel. It's like the epilogue to the last film. I don't think that Rob Zombie's Halloween was so successful they needed to give that film an epilogue, but that is in fact what they did because this film does not stand on its own. I like Michael Myers swinging around on those ropes and shooting that other guy.

That part was really cool. Can we get that? Because I would watch that. I would watch so many things with the Halloween name tied to it. I would watch Halloween if it was actually, in fact, them going back to doing the franchise as an anthology.

But they'll never do that. They really should at this point because they've burned so many bridges in the other direction. It's like they should just be like, All right, you know what? We're starting over. We're going back.

That's the move anyway most of the time is, oh, we're going back to the original movie. We're going back to the original novel. They always try to go old school. Do that with this one. And then get rid of the Michael Myers, do anthology movies, and then a handful of horror people will like it and everybody else will complain.

And if you're making these movies for horror fans, actually just ignore what a normal person would want. And that's the other thing that I think we kind of have to mention with these kind of Rob Zombie movies. And I think that that's maybe the one positive that you can really take away from the industry is he did help pave the way for directors who are clearly in need of just. Being not let loose. But Rob Zombie doesn't really need to be making studio films.

He doesn't really need studio money. And I think him now self-producing is a fact of that. He just got into it a little earlier than a lot of his other, not contemporaries, but other people doing similar things. I don't think Rob Zombie should have ever been involved with the studio system because he's honestly not that kind of director. And I think this movie, I think that Halloween 1 and 2, all it did for Rob Zombie was probably hurt his career because it showed that he's not really... super financially viable as like a mainstream direct.

Yeah, that's what I was going to say. I was like, with the name attached to any horror project, he should be able to, if at this point, probably self-fund it or at least a good portion of what he needs and then make it back once it comes out. Or just find backers in the horror world that put out nothing but horror movies for indie budgets. And just be like, once you've got the Rob Zombie name attached, like that's it. You're already going to make your money back.

So like he could go that route and do whatever he wants, which he kind of has been for years now. So it's like, yeah, the fact that he got suckered into doing Halloween movies was kind of maybe that first misstep on his part. And I think, you know, ultimately, when we have a director like Rob Zombie, who is, you know, making his bones with a again, like we've already alluded to. House of a Thousand Corpses really is just really is just not it's it's it's wearing its influences right there on its sleeve. It's just Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

It's pretty much Texas Chainsaw Massacre with little bits and pieces of other movies thrown in, too. But the framework is Texas Chainsaw Massacre. He already did a movie like Halloween. And I guess the thinking was, he's already done a movie like Halloween, so why doesn't he just do Halloween? I guess?

Again, that's kind of a lazy way to go about it. Right, but that's kind of my thinking, and that's kind of where my brain is at. Because, you know, House of a Thousand Corpses was immensely successful. It wasn't Blair Witch Project successful. It wasn't Back Rooms or Obsession successful.

But it was successful in its own right. In the horror world, it was. really successful you know because they set the bar a lot lower normally this year aside but normally they set the. Bar a lot lower for horror. Movies and then when they they don't cost as much so when they make a really good profit they're like okay this worked let's do another one but It ebbs and flows. We see it every now and then.

This is nothing new. Rob Zombie's career as a horror director is similar to Cain Parsons and Curry Barker. Whether or not they ever make another successful movie, similarly to Rob Zombie, they all made successful indie horror films that got them jobs elsewhere doing bigger things because of a movie that they made that they wrote and directed of their own volition. And that is impressive. That can never be taken away from Rob Zombie or any of these other directors.

But once you start going down this route, it's when things start getting kind of hinky. Because I just... I almost... And this is... I think maybe this is probably the funniest way to put it because it just doesn't sound like a thing that... makes any sense.

Similarly, the way we were talking about the last film, I almost feel like Halloween is beneath Rob Zombie. Do you know what I mean though? It's like, I don't know if he adds anything to it. I think it's just in a different lane than he is. Like he's over here doing his weird, crazy over the top thing.

And he wants to do that. And he's, good in his... It's not high concept, though, at all. He just wants to be this high concept fucking weirdo. Look at all the other stuff he's done since this.

It's all this weird high concept horror movie. I'm not saying it's actually beneath him, but that's probably should have been his thinking. This is beneath. I don't know if that's actually the case, but I think in his mind, he should have viewed this as this is beneath. I don't know if it actually is, but he's...

He has higher concept stuff than a dude walking around slashing people with a knife. I just feel like now, because of what Halloween is, it's such a different category. Because in the early days, you know, the Carpenter win is just some random dude putting out a weird indie horror movie. So, like, that was fine back then. But now, it's not just a franchise.

It's a studio franchise. It's an industry in and of itself, almost, at this point. So... to try to cram a weirdo like Rob Zombie into that mold, it's just not going to work. And we saw it. It didn't.

Like, your first one is your best bet, and even that didn't really work. It worked just enough for them to try to make a sequel. But it still wasn't like... Gangbuster successful. It wasn't lines wrapped around the block.

It just like won its week. It made back a good amount of money, but like it's still only worked as much as it was going to work trying to put Rob Zombie in that box because that's not what's going to work for you. Well, and if you listen to our episode on that movie, you'll know that the things that worked for Brian were essentially Rob Zombie doing a riff on something that was not his to begin with. It was literally just the original Halloween film But with Rob Zombie's kind of twist on it, the part that worked for me was the part that was kind of more Rob Zombie specific in terms of like his ideas. But even then, it was still working within a pre-established framework.

It's not like he really it's not like if you said to me, Chris and Brian, come up with why Michael Myers is the way that he is. We probably would have come to the same exact conclusion that Rob Zombie did like. parental abuse a bad household like bully okay so rob zombie did all of those things as opposed to even just picking one in that case he did all of them and i think that that's like for me rob zombie as a director is just a throw everything at the wall kind of guy but it's not everything in terms of a widespread of things it is a very specific slice of throwing everything at the wall And it's just gratuitous. Everything that he's into. I mean, there's a certain F word that gets used 112 times in this movie.

I saw that and I was like, wow, yeah, that seems about right, actually, because I just watched this movie and that is so constant. I mean, one scene is just someone repeatedly saying it over and over. And I was like, OK. And there are many times in his movie that I say, OK, we get it. Like, OK, maybe more in the last one.

I feel like this one is just weird. So but last time is like we're as we're like just blasted. Beating that guy's head into the wall and I'm like okay he's dead now we get it like it just there's sometimes when he takes it so over the top that I'm just like once again I'm like all right well you're so cool we get it calm down Rob like so it it's the same thing we get here as he's smashing this poor girl's face into a mirror repeatedly over and over and I'm like yeah okay you've you've killed a stripper you're so cool we get it like it's just I don't know like he's just. A little too much even for his own good sometimes I would say the word I would use is Rob Zombie, I would perceive him as crin.

Like he just kind of goes to, yeah, just goes, just like going too far. I'm not sure it wasn't then. I just don't know if there was a people's attention then, but now we're even more, we're setting lines that did not exist back then. You're like that one loud kid in the classroom just yelling at everybody else. And we're just like, man, I get it and you might make us laugh from time to time, but.

But you're still going to the principal's office, Robbie, so calm down. It's just, like you've said, excessive to the point of exhausting. I'm exhausted by the time I watch one of these. It's just eye-rolling for me at certain points. I'm like, yeah, okay, I get it.

It's just so Rob Zombie. Or even just the trashiness. Same thing with the interior design here, or They're trashy house in the in the last one. Like, it's just OK. I get it.

They're poor. That's the reason he's evil. Poor people suck. What are we saying? Sometimes it's so busy making that over the top point that it's like, I don't even know if you're saying the thing you need to say anymore.

Like, it's just it's so weird the way he goes about some things just to be over the top and trashy because he thinks it's his brand. Well, I'm not sure that it isn't his brand, right? Like it is his brand. It's his brand, but it's not him. It doesn't.

No, because he lives in a mansion. It's obviously like that's the problem I have with a lot of these things. It's like it's all very, I don't know. It's all very performative. Yeah, anything else.

It's just overly performative. And that that for me is very irritating, because like you said, like it's the trashiness needs to serve a purpose. And if it doesn't serve a purpose, don't do it. And I'm not saying it can't serve a purpose. There are plenty of films that I've seen Texas Chainsaw Massacre being one of them where the trashiness totally works.

And it's not something that I'm like questioning why the characters are trashy in this film. I am questioning it all the time as to why is the house painted like this? She grew up in a normal house in the last film, literally like a normal house. Super middle class, like super polished. And now she's just like a complete psycho.

Like, okay. All right. Here's a good counterbalance of someone who also has a very specific vibe they're going for, also works in the music industry and is even in the background of her trashy room. Alice Cooper. Now, Alice Cooper has been selling this brand of I'm spooky and gothy and these are my songs and this is my vibe forever.

Since before Rob Zombie was born. So the fact that when you see Rob, when you see Alice Cooper in Out in the World, he's playing golf. He's well-spoken and well-read and he's a dork. And that's why I think he's awesome because he's not trying to prove to me how spooky he is in the real world. That's his job.

I live my brand, brother. Yeah. He has a brand it is his brand you can go buy a t-shirt with a spooky makeup on it but when you stop and talk to him he's not like that he has no want to be that ridiculous and gratuitous and over the top about it all because he knows it's just a show it's part of the show it's what he does it's not who he is. And Rob wants you to buy that this is who he is. When once again, go look at his house in that magazine shoot.

And I'm like, you live in a big fancy house, dude. Like now don't get me wrong. You're a dork because I love the collection of his stuff that I've seen over the years and all the weird sci-fi and horror stuff that he's bought over the years because he is also a big dork, but he's the. One that's like putting on an act for everybody. So they think he's cool.

Versus somebody like Alice Cooper is just like, yeah, I don't care. I'm a dork. Like I was on The Muppet Show and that's why I'm awesome. I'm cool because I'm. Not putting on a big, you know, pretend to be goth and super cool the rest of the time when I'm on stage and I decapitate myself.

Yeah, that's the show. And I'm. good at that. And I've been doing it for most of my life. And that's why he's awesome. But the fact that he doesn't pretend to be.

Something else the rest of the time, he's just like, nah, that's my day job. I'm somebody like Alice Cooper is actually cool. He's not living the gimmick. That's the thing. There's edginess, but edginess has a finite level of edginess that needs to be brought to things.

I guess when I think of Rob Zombie, I think of someone like Jared Leto, where it's just like, dude, don't you know that you're not really in on the joke anymore because you are the joke? You are the joke. You are the joke. You're not even in on it. Definitely Jared Leto. yes you were in on it at one point but you're not anymore like having our main character in this film have a mayor i would say marilyn manson would actually work but a charles manson poster behind her bed like give me a fucking like that's just anyone g and weird and just.

Traumatized to the point that no they don't want true crime hanging around in the room they lived it They don't want to re-experience it every time they wake up in the morning screaming from nightmares, by the way. Hey, look, it's Manson's face behind your bed. What the fuck are we talking? Jesus. And that's my point.

This movie just, I think, generally doesn't get it with the Laurie character, which is weird that they even included her at all in this movie. If you're going to just have Michael roaming around, just make it Michael roaming around. And you know what? I think this movie would have fared, maybe not way better, but I think it would have fared better than it does with just, you know, oh, well, it's Laurie again, and it's sort of Halloween 2, but not really, because if we do Halloween 2 again, then it might also be criticized as Rob Zombie not doing his own thing. You know what?

He did do his own thing. You can't drag him for that. He did. He did. But you also can't give him any other compliment for anything else, because all the other things that he did just are all pulling in, separate directions not in not utilizing the same kind of world that he crafted in the first movie it's almost like this movie is being made by someone else who's not Rob Zombie trying to capture the Rob Zombie tone but in fact spoilers this film is made by Rob Zombie so I don't understand what the issue is other than the thing we've talked about which is the Weinstein of it all but even then just don't come back.

Is this Rob Zombie AI is like they fed all the aspects of rob zombie into the machine and they're like all right give us the movie that's you know all rob zombie like and then it's out you're like well uh it's close everybody's got six fingers on one hand do. You think anyone will notice the six fingers it's a little weird but it's it's close it's close that's always my question will anyone notice the six fingers And that's the thing. How is it that a director's own film is diminished return? But it is. It's diminished returns in a way that I'm not used to.

Because normally when you see a sequel to a film, it's diminishing returns because it's just not as good as the last one, because it's just kind of doing the same things as the last one. And that's not what's happening here. This movie is literally doing everything differently than the last film. And yet somehow in that being the goal, It fails even harder than it would have if this had been just a direct sequel to the last film in terms of like, I guess it just being a remake of Halloween 2. Yeah, just following the normal beats of a Halloween movie, if not that exact Halloween.

Right. It doesn't do that on this one. No, I don't know if it would have been any better or worse than it is now. But I think that criticism of like, well, this isn't a Michael. This is, you know, this is not an original idea.

This Michael Myers movie is not a Rob Zombie thing. It's like, well, OK, fine, I guess. Well, this one is. Have fun with that. Yeah, exactly.

And that was, I think, you know, to bring this full circle. That was why when we initially were talking about what we wanted to launch your show on the network with and what you and I kind of wanted to do as our first two episodes together, I wanted to be kind of a of a piece. you know, bring this all the way back. These movies are not movies that I think most people who do what we do want to talk about readily for a whole host of reasons. And I think that those reasons are deserved and understood. But at the same time, Rob Zombie is not making films that are completely beyond reproach.

I think even for you and I who, you know, our enjoyment of this film has varied all over the place. I, I don't think I didn't enjoy these movies. I just, I feel like the rap that they get is deserved but undeserved at the same. I feel like the level of it is deserved but for different reasons in both movies. Yeah.

They should have a weird reputation but maybe not for the reasons that you're thinking of. Right. Which is crazy because, and again, the reasons I think most people stay away from these movies are, like you said, well-deserved, but that's not what's going on here. Like the reason that these movies aren't successful are actually in spite of the things that work and the things that work are the things that we would be complaining about in most, if not all of these other Rob Zombie films, which is him being Rob Zombie too much. Here I kind of want more of them.

So it's just a weird mixture. Yeah, it's... Yeah, I was not expecting to feel this way about it coming into it this last... I was more expecting it to be just like, well, this is a gross movie and I don't like it. Like, this time I'm like, oh, okay.

I actually... wish that these were better for a very different reason than last time. Last time I would just avoid these things like the plague and be done with it. So yeah, I think I just, I think I landed pretty much where I did the first time, but now I found all new reasons to be there. I had the same like take on it, but now I've just reinforced it with so many more points along the way. Now, if someone is like, I love Rob Zombie's Halloween, you could be like, listen here.

Sit down. I have several hours of notes. Yeah, I have plenty of time and time to tell you about why I feel the way I do. And yeah, like, you know, like like Brian just said, I think, you know, it's it is not a franchise that for me is one that I'm going to come back to. And it's not one that I even really like.

I'm not a Rob Zombie guy, but I can at least respect that. the decisions that he's making when he makes ones that are successful. And even when he makes ones that are unsuccessful, he's still getting to do something that so many people, myself included, wish they could do, which is being given the opportunity to make a big budget Hollywood film. And while this is not, neither of these are the most stunning example of his work, I think, resonating with a large group of people, he's still got to make a Halloween movie. Yeah, I mean, it's it's the same thing I've said about many people that were offered a major franchise movie and took that opportunity. I'm like, yeah, I don't blame you.

I will, too. I don't necessarily have to like what you made in the end, but like I sure as hell wouldn't point the finger at you for deciding to do it and cashing a nice check to do something that you've wanted to do since you were a kid like. Yeah, all of those parts make sense. Like whether or not it's going to turn out, that's a case by case basis. But I do not blame you for going along with this opportunity because it was given to you.

Yeah. Well, and, you know, he earned it with House of a Thousand Corpses. Yeah. I'm glad we talked about these movies, but I am also glad that I will probably never have to watch them. I mean, we can revisit them.

Just give them a decade or two. Ten years. See if we feel different. I don't think I will change how I feel about these movies. They can't retroactively get better.

I didn't since last time, so I feel like I'm probably not going to come around in a whole different way. Yeah, I think you're like where you need to be right now. There's no further do you need to go at this point. I don't think so, no. So, yeah, if you want to hear more of what I do weekly on this show, you can head on over to weirdingwaymedia.com where this show and so many other shows can be found online.

But more importantly, Brian, where can people find you and what can people expect to hear if they go and listen to your show, Movie Meltdown? Well, as of now, you can actually hear it at Weirding Way Media. So that's, you know, your first stop, obviously. But I was going to say, I think last time we threw out the basic website, but also I was, I was thinking if people wanted to follow social media stuff, there are, if you go to MovieMeltdown.com, there are the links. Again, I, I'm not thrilled with most of the options out there at this point.

Instagram is really the only thing that's cool. Like that's the one that most people agree upon. And like your cool celebrities are still posting good pictures out there. And like, that's the one that still seems like people have a little respect for. So, you know, I don't know that I'd put anything useful out there, but it is one of those there used to be.

I was thinking about this today when, when I started this a thousand years ago, there was a lot less shows, but there was such a Nice community built around it that I feel like with the arrival of a million new shows out there, it also kind of killed the like close knit little family that was built out of not just the shows that were out there, but also the listeners. I do remember starting out, there was a handful of shows and then there were like a group of like hardcore listeners that were fans of all of the shows. And they would like write into all the shows and they would like comment on the shows online. And like it became a really cool community that like slowly that version of it shows fell away.

You know, people moved on as the listeners. But like that was a cool aspect. So it's like that's something that I would like to to work with you, Chris and Mike and like try to. to try to find a new version of that, that not just are we putting out good shows, but we're also like connecting with people. And then finding a good way to like interact with them online and build like a nice little community of people that like talking about weird movies and pop culture and all of the things that we, you know, yammer on about it for long, long amounts of time. Long.

Very long amounts of time. There's nothing wrong with that. And no, you know, like Brian mentioned, we're really lucky to have Brian on the network as someone who has been, like I've told you, privately, like someone who's been working in podcasting for a very long time and been very... I think, instrumental in getting podcasting where it is now for a lot of us, especially for essentially having done movie podcasting since as long as movies or movie pod... I guess movies, not really, but podcasting about movies has been around.

Since silent films, I started back in the day. Yeah, since 1903. With sending out telegraphs about them. That's right. But I'm really glad that you're part of the network.

I look forward to the rest of the shows we have planned for this month together. And then where it kind of goes beyond that, Brian and I don't know yet, but, uh, to speak to the next episode that we're going to be doing together, we are going to be doing a, uh, a little crossover between Brian's show and my show talking about the soon, uh, to be released punching bag of a film resident evil, which poor Zach Kreger just can't catch a goddamn break. Uh, You just can't catch a break. I don't know. I think that's not a fan of Resident Evil, I don't think.

I think the trailer looks really good. So whether or not, again, like if we're using what we've talked about for two movies now. What a fucking, what an ironic movie to be talking about to lead into Resident Evil. Because we didn't really plan that part of it. This just became the, oh, and this is coming out the next week and this is coming out.

And so like everything just sort of fell into place, but we didn't plan the one, two, three of it all. The one, two was planned. Yeah. And then next week, this movie's coming out. Let's go talk about that.

And then now, the more we dig into this, we're just like, well, and then next week, you've got this up-and-coming filmmaker that gets kind of successful. And then they hand him a big franchise movie for a studio. Oh, man. And it's being rejected before the goddamn film has even come out. Which, man, the times sure have changed.

As they say, the internet has just gotten worse, folks. Yeah. I'm looking forward to Resident Evil. It looks interesting. I am a huge fan of Resident Evil.

I can say that there are at least two games in that series that I would consider some of my favorite video games of all time that I will readily go back and replay. So just to bury the lead, that's where I'm coming at it from. But I am giving him a lot of grace because you know what? The last Resident Evil movies were pretty bad. So I don't know if they're going to be better or worse than those movies, but the bar is pretty low.

And also, again, to bury the lead, Zack Craig, you're not a guy whose films I'm a huge fan of. They're fine. I'm not sitting here and saying like, well, Weapons was my favorite film of the year because it wasn't. And I'm not going to pretend like the when it came out, it was it was fine. So I'm kind of already coming into this apprehensive.

So not, you know, angry that the fact that they gave Resident Evil to someone who's not a. fan of the franchise question mark but it is weird that the the weird parallel here of rob zombie being given halloween and now it's like and zach crager being given resident evil and to be fair curry barker being given um there's a curry barker kane parsons one of them is doing a texas chainsaw move and it's just like yeah what the hell like is it another prequel is it one of six prequels that now happen please just be a goddamn reboot at this point like for the love of god and all that is holy just reboot it again for like the eight millionth time Can we please... The real sequel to the original. Oh, wait.

They already did that. No, can we please remake the fourth one? Because that might be my favorite. Is that the McConaughey one? Yes.

That movie is wild. Get Matthew McConaughey. Just bring him back. I mean, he does some crazy stuff. He'll probably do it.

Isn't Renee Zellweger in that film too? Yeah, yeah. Young Renee Zellweger and McConaughey with a weird contraption on his leg with a remote control. That's right. The most dangerous different leather face you've ever seen which oddly has like found the following now i've seen like they're selling pre-made halloween costumes of that version of leather face in the last couple years so like i don't know maybe it's time maybe it'll come full circle and that'll be the preferred texas chainsaw massacre so.

Many things come full circle thanks spirit halloween ha ha ha Jesus Christ. I'm shopping there on a regular basis. Thank goodness. I only wear clothing from Spirit Halloween. Well, I mean, it's where I pick up my house accessories, you know, for the whole year.

I have to be good. It's time to get some new housewares and like, you know, stock up. I need my Art the Clown spoon. I mean, mostly I need guest towels that have, you know, the... cast of nightmare before christmas on them of course that's right that's right that's where most if not all of nightmare before christmas things come from that's spirit all the way or i mean now well well i mean it used to be spencers now truthfully if they haven't closed down the disney store in your town disney has whole whole gone in on that thing the thing that they once the director they once threw out we're like no you're too weird get lost And then the movie that they even then were just like, eh, we're not that into your weirdo movie.

Eventually, when they. Realized how much money that property was making, now they have fully embraced it. I saw their website had a whole little Halloween pop up the other day and I was like, all right, let's see. What they put out. It is so much Halloween stuff and a lot of it is Nightmare Before Christmas because they are all in on making money off that property.

And maybe at some point they'll release another Halloween movie. I guess that's never crossed their minds at any point. Why would you if you can just keep cranking out merchandise from the same one? Because there's shockingly little to mine from that fucking movie at this point. I mean, every character has now been featured.

No matter how minor a character, there's a giant sweater that was the ad that popped up. Of the teddy bear, the teddy bear with the fangs, the most minimal of all characters. They've now made this giant image on a sweater that they're selling. That's how far down they've run out of every side character on Nightmare Before Christmas. I love it.

I love it, though. You'd probably look at it, and if you didn't know who it was, you'd at least go, the style kind of looks like a Tim Burton drawing. And like, yep, you're right. It actually... So yeah, that's where they're going now.

Just making money off of it. well and that's you know that's all of these things you got if you got a franchise and it's halloween time let's let's milk the shit out of it yeah again right next to that in your spirit is uh an entire wall full of stuff with michael myers head on it so you know yeah yeah again literally bringing it back around there's a whole franchise merchandising uh opportunity waiting for you you just got to come out with the right movie And that's how we got Terrifier. So on that note, like, rate, and review the show wherever you get it, more than likely iTunes and Spotify. And if it's not on iTunes and Spotify, make that where you get the show, because that helps us out all the most.

Patreon.com slash CultureCast is where you can go to kick a couple dollars my way, but liking and rating and reviewing the show on iTunes and Spotify is more important than money any day of the week. So as always, thanks for listening, and we'll catch you on the next episode.