Jesus Christ Superstar

Wait wait, so Emma, Yes, a gentile and a jew walk into a podcast. Hear me out on this one. You're learning and they're tasked with talking about a screen adaptation of a play musical. Mind you rock opera. Don't confuse it with a musical because it's not a musical.

It was a concept album that turned into a rock opera that turned into a movie. Uh, we're gonna be talking about Jesus Christ Superstar, which was not our originally programmed content for this month, but we decided, hey, you know what, let's change it up. Let's do something different for once, and for once, I mean every month we do pretty much the same thing, which is talk about a theme and movies underneath that theme. This month just happens to be musicals. But I guess this technically doesn't count because it's a rock opera.

Wow, I was so subversive of the right. Oh boy, But yeah, no, we are. We are going to be talking about Jesus Christ Superstar. I am the host of the Culture Cast, Christashu, and I'm joined by my good friend. You have heard her on scary Stories we tell plenty, you have not heard her here on this show enough, which is the fucking truth.

Your friend in mine, one of the co hosts over there at Scary Stories. We tell Emma, hello, it's nearly three m. Happy to be here, you know, I. You know, sometimes you and I talk for a long time, and sometimes we talk for a long time, and we also have things we also have to do add afterwards, like an absurd amount of things that we have to do after right, and sometimes we are able to watch and record at the same time. On the Culture Cast, folks, we're not doing this while watching the movie.

We're doing this after watching the movie, literally after watching the movie in our case, or most of the time, we've watched the movie before showing up. But you know what, if someone wants to watch the movie with me, I'm not gonna say no. So Emma and I just spent the last hour and forty six minutes of our lives that's watching. Are you sure it was not longer? Nay, Ship, Yeah, Well yeah, no, it felt longer, but yeah.

On this episode of the Culture Cast, we're gonna be talking about the nineteen seventy three film adaptation of the immensely popular rock opera of the exact same name by Tim Rice and Andrew Lloyd Webber that is titled in both regards, Jesus Christ Superstar. Started to believe the things they say of you. You really do believe this talk of God as too. If he said he loved me, I'd be lost. I'd be fried.

I couldn't just couldn't cook. I turned my im back away. I't want to excuse me. So my temple should be a house of prayer. But you have made that.

I dare the beet as you know I love you? Did you see all? I haven't leading you and God? So tell me that I'm saying, as you know, I love you. Did you see Ah?

Wait, haven't leading you and God? So tell me that I'm saying Christ, You're the great Jesus Christ. Prove to me that you're divine. Change my water into wine? What jeez arong me wrong?

Lie woman? M So. The film is directed by and Emma. Emma was already making noise. I've given my my I've given hours of my life to this.

About to give another hour and a half more. Probably sleep when you have Jesus Christ Superstar, the film that's directed by Norman Jewison. It's like I said, based on the Huge Jack. It's such a good name, such a good name. It's based, like I said, on the musical of the same name, And this film adaptation stars several of the or most of the people from the original stage play.

Ted Neely plays Jesus, Carl Anderson plays Judas, Levon Ellman plays Mary Magdalen, and Barry Dennon plays Conscious Pilot. Yes, if you know the Bible, you pretty much already know this story, at least the broad strokes in terms of the psychological reasoning for why the characters are doing things, in terms of the songs that they're being sung, and we're learning about the character motivations that say of liberties. To be fair the musical. The musical is based off of a I don't know. I don't know how to put this any other way, folks, So I'll say it before anybody else does anybody else, being Emma, The Bible is fiction, fictional characters.

There may have been a person named Jesus Christ. There was probably plenty of people name Jesus. Oh sorry, was he the son of God? Well, if you believe in God, then you probably believe Jesus Christ is the son of God. If you believe in the Christian God.

However, yours truly is not one of those people. So again, and this is just me coming from where I'm coming from, Emma, I mentioned at the top of this episode you are Jewish, so you are not a Christian either, So we might be the two best if you believe too best if you believe me, or to worst if you believe Christians people to talk about something to do with Jesus Christ. I guess, I mean, I do think we have a wide range here, right, Because did you grow up in like a Christian or Catholic coded household? Wow? So yeah, and welcome to scary stories we tell everyone.

I mean, that's what's funny, is like I was wondering if you were going to ask me, because again, this seems like a thing we have talked about. I think we talked about it there before. I grew up in a household where mom and dad. Mom was raised a Roman Catholic, went to a Catholic high school, went to Catholic elementary school, middle school. Dad not so much.

My grandfather was Ukrainians, so Ukrainian Orthodox, but where we lived in Dallas, there wasn't a Ukrainian Orthodox church, not that we could go to or knew about at the time. So I was actually baptized in a Greek Orthodox church of all things, and we went sparingly to Greek Orthodox churches, or the singular Greek Orthodox Church in Dallas. If you are from Dallas, you know which church I'm talking about. It is a rather large church in Dallas that every September puts on a Greek festival, which is a lot of fun because you know us, Greeks have a great time. They love to drink, they love to eat good food, and they love to dance and they're a really awesome people.

I have a very close friend who is like half Greek and he's a good time and he actually went to that church. But all that to be said, No, I was not really raised in a religious household. We went to church probably less than twenty times, so like less than half of a year's worth of church. And most of the times we went was like really was just like randomly if my mom or dad. My mom was like, oh, I want to go to church for Christmas eve.

I think we went one time, which is so fun. Oh I actually did that once with a friend. Yeah, I went to an evening Christmas Mass. It sure was something, and by something, I mean I don't remember any of it because I think I disassociated to most well. And so that's the thing I mean again, like I said, we're are the best or worst people to be kind of talking objectively and subjectively about something based on the life of again a literal quote Messiah unquote if you are a Christian.

So we can't get around it, is what I'm getting at, like right, So that's also why I want to preface. So, yes, I was raised Reformed Jew basically meaning casual casual Jew. I don't want to say we did like the bare minimum. I did go to Hebrew School, where at one point I knew how to read Hebrew although I could not speak it, and we went to you know, services on Sunday mornings for a while throughout it. I mean up up until I turned about like eleven or twelve, is as long as like I was in what is known as shool, which is Hebrew school.

So that you know it's like CCD, I assume I don't know. I've never been to CCD. That being said, other than keeping up with the big holidays and traditions that are important to me and my family, I myself do identify as agnostic. I see myself much more as Jewish by blood and Agnostic by faith, which for those that don't know, it's like a step below atheism, it's I have no fucking clue. Maybe yeah, I would consider myself an agnostic atheist, like I don't necessarily believe, and to be fair, you can't really prove it either, so that like choosing to prove or right right exactly?

And oh am I like? And that's that's my my thought process is who the fuck am I to say whether or not what religion is, what religion and whether or not God exists? And do you believe in that? I don't know if I ever really did, because it wasn't even like going I feel like going to temple is a lot different than going to church because going to church or like being preached at you're being taught what to think, like what interpretation of the Bible, And obviously every church is a little different. For me and my experience, most of the services were in Hebrew, and it was less about like God and like how tangible I suppose the connection to God is, and much more of like how can we do good?

I mean, that's That's mainly what I remember is like a lot of it is like these are like remember where we came from. That's a big part of it. You know, the trials and tribulations that as a community, as an ethnic you know, group that we have based over the years. That was a big part of it. Like the terms like freed us from the house of bondage, et cetera.

Like that that came up a lot, and like do your mitzvahs, which a mitzvah is basically a good deed. But it wasn't like if you do these things, you'll have a strong connection to God and go to Heaven. It's just that stuff was never talked about. And so like I knew of the concept of God, I don't know how much I really believed because my parents never really made it clear to me whether or not they believed. Like to this day, I don't really know if either of them believe in God.

To be completely honest, I think they believe in some semblance of a spirituality that resembles, you know, the teachings of Judaism, but it's so loose and so amorphous this point. Uh so, yeah, I mean it's I don't I don't want to say that we're a special case. I feel like there are probably a lot of American Jews that feel similarly or were raised similarly. You know, we don't keep kosher, We don't uh do much of the things that people, you know, stereotypically associate with being Jewish. I can't tell you how many times growing up people were like, you eat bacon.

It's like, yeah, bitch, it's fucking tasty. I don't know what to tell you. Got what does bo Burnham say? And from God's perspective, I will Yeah, I don't. I don't give a shit about the deli count, don't draw the line at the deli deli counter or something.

Yeah, which, yeah. We also don't believe in sin the same way. I believe in hell the same way. I didn't know hell was a thing until some weird Catholic lady came up to my mom's car and I was in the back seat and was like, oh, you're speaking about my my older sister. At the time, I was like four, Maybe my sister is just being dropped off.

I think I've told you this already, but for the sake of everyone listening, it's an interesting anecdote. My sister is dropped off at a Slover party. She must have been like seven eight ish, and so we're about to my mom and I were about to leave. I was, you know, in the backseat just because I needed to be watched and want to leave me home alone. And this woman, this nice looking woman, comes up to the driver's side window, you know, like taps on the window.

So my mom, being the wonderful woman that she is, rolls her window down and confirm, yes, you did have a lovely chat with her for the first time, very glad. So she rolls her window des She's like, yeah, hi, can I help you? And this woman goes, oh, your so and so's mom right, And my mom is like, yes, is everything okay? And she goes, oh, your daughter is so sweet. Too bad she's going to Hell.

And my mom goes, I'm excuse me. Those Catholics love this hell you. I'm like I'm sorry, and this woman goes, well, you're Jewish, right, and like this is I think this is probably the first time I ever heard of the concept of hell. Was this random Catholic lady As we were just driving over, like we weren't even we were alread even talking to anyone. We were in our car about to leave, and like, that's the part of this side of religion that deeply bothers me.

It's not about what you believe in, it's how you pursue those beliefs and shove them onto others, which is something that Judaism, as far as I know, does not choose to do. If anything, we actively deter people from trying to convert. So we say and listen, it's all fun here, you know. And so that's the thing. And and this is the thing again, If you are not of the of the Jewish faith, this may not be something that you inherently are aware of.

And if I am speaking down to any of you, please stop me. If you've heard this one before. In Christianity, the belief is that Jesus was the one true Messiah, the Son of God reincarnated, brought to earth to die for our sins, you know, blah blah blah blah blah. And Judaism they do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah. Yeah, he was unlawfully anointed the messiahy right, this guy with a bunch of people that followed him.

So again that is he was a jew. He was a Jewish dude. He was just vibing. Yes, folks, Jesus was in fact Jewish. So to get all that out of the way, Jesus Christ Superstars, I know, yeah, He's like, that's the baseline, right, So that's where we're sitting here with Jesus Christ Superstar.

So all that out of the way. It is a again, a dramatized retelling of the Passion, which is the last couple of days of Jesus's life, including what he's sold out by Judas, including ponscious washing his hands, including the thirty nine lashes, all the things that everybody, I feel like everybody of the Christian faith knows. And if you're not of the Christian faith, but you live in the United States of America, you've probably seen it or heard about it, or heard somebody talking about it, or seen a cross on a wall with a dead guy on it, which Emma mentioned it. I will reiterate this as well. Is kind of fucking weird, but okay, I get the symbolism.

I just don't want to see that every day on in my like lovely living room, Like I under I understand what it represents a beautiful sacrifice. Sure, it's fucking depressing to look. Yeah, why you would actively choose to add that in your home at all times? Me, it's a constant reminder of Jesus's pain, for his faith is probably a way that it's been explained away at some point. So all that reminded of his pain, don't ask me.

I'm not I'm not of I didnt flatulate myself constantly in a way that is often necessary to care about faith in the way that some people do. I do need to feel the new I'm sorry. I need to reiterate the fact that before we turned this on, I did say it to Chris. Are we sure we're supposed to be covering? I do again, just with the cove you know of If you're listening to this, I hope nothing is taken with offense, because we are people with very specific views that don't align with what this was about.

And so if you do align with that, then maybe this episode isn't for you, And that's okay. That being said, Well, that's the thing I would actually I don't bristle at that, but I disagree in a way because I think the people who made this have no interest in showing because I really don't think Jesus is necessarily shown in a positive light. No, not really don't like it, and like that would I think be counterintuitive to what we, as most people would consider to be the tenant of Christian faith, which is Jesus died for our sins. But and I know that people in Christianity bristle at the idea of Jesus being a flawed or you know, complex figure, because I mean I've seen the response to something like the Last Temptation of Christ.

There's a little bit of it here, and there's not a lot though, and they're doing something else. They're not trying to show super complex Jesus Christ. They're showing somewhat conflict Jesus. Yeah, I mean, like he's finedly minorly conflicted. So just want to get that out of the way.

This is where we're coming from. This is where this thing is coming from, which is again a dramatized retelling of this story, not necessarily trying to do anything real in terms of like again, like they're taking the story and doing with it as they will as artists. So all that to be said, Emma, what did you think of Jesus Christ Superstar the movie right, So to reiterate the movie, because we did watch some bits and pieces from some of the stage versions, which we will undoubtedly talk about for reasons that may have to do less with the successes of the movie, but more the successes of the stage play and the failings that the movie chooses not to take advantages. So my my my take is, uh, it could have been maybe a third of its length and been significantly more impactful.

I it was very long. I mean the nature of the songs and I'm sure we'll talk about this more, but the nature of the songs are incredibly repetitive, and I don't have an issue with repetitive lyrics, but it goes on for so long, and it just it's just like, Okay, we get it, can we can we Uh, what's the next thing? It just it really it really drags. It really drags. And as somebody who's not intimately familiar with the Bible, there was a lot of confusion of what was going on.

And to be fair, I don't necessarily think I'm the target audience, but I could have dealt with a little bit more exposition. I feel like they were so expositionless in the story of the Bible, right, don't right? You just everyone does it? Absolutely, it's just ingrained in te your conscious from birth. I write as a Jew.

You clearly know the story of the Passion. That was the big obstacle for me, is I know I like, I know Jesus has died on the cross that like I know that I know Judas betrayed him. I know the Last Supper was a thing. I know it was bess over. But like everything else is like a big blind spot for me.

And so I'm sitting here wondering, like how much of this is a dramatization of what is in the Bible, but also like how much of this wasn't in the Bible at all? And like do I look at this as like an accurate retelling, just a musical retelling with like an interesting interpretation on you know, intention perhaps or what's going on behind the scenes, But like, are all of the events as they happen in the Bible? I'm not sure. I'm really that I did not know. So that was an obstacle for me.

And they don't hold your hand with that, which I mean again, I don't think I'm the target audience. So it is what it is. I don't want to say it really bothered me, but it definitely didn't make it a super intuitive watch, so that I don't know, I feel like that definitely took away the enjoyment. So it was, it was really long, it was kind of confusing, it was really repetitive for no, no, not enough reason. And I'm pooring And that's my take.

I wish I liked it more. I am. I love giving things the benefit of the doubt. I really do, especially things that are like mildly controversial. And I say mildly controversial, as Chris knows, uh I, uh my, my mom is very anti this movie.

I just I've known for a very long time that she did not like it, and not for any religious reason, but just because she is a musical lover and she she like got her degree like as a theater kid, and like I've seen a lot of Broadway because of her and just her opinion as somebody who consumes a lot of this type of content, including enjoying a lot of movies that are religiously coded, even if it's not in line with herbal leaps. It's just she always told me, like it's bad. It's bad. And I was like, really, really like, why is it? Why do you think it's bad?

I never saw it. I wanted her opinion. She couldn't really articulate it to me. I finally I get it. I can finally say, at the age of twenty six, it's been it's been a long time, but I can finally understand why my mom does not like this movie.

I mean, here's a couple things. I mean, obviously you know this, as if you can't tell this was something that I chose. Do I wish I had chosen something else? No, because I'm sure if I was like, Emma, do you want to do another thing before the end of the month that's not fucking boring, you'd probably say yes. But that doesn't change the fact that we spent time watching this, and this movie does drag, and the sad thing is best.

I can tell the other versions that I've seen, the other interpretations that we looked at together, and and again I've seen other interpretations other than that one. They seem to do more interesting things with what they're doing. And this just seems to be the story of Jesus with music and and look, it's a it was originally a rock opera. It was originally a concept album, which it was released as a concept album initially, so like this was never meant to be this. This is this because of the success of that, and then they said, well, this could then be a thing that we do elsewhere and turn it into this bigger, grander idea.

And knowing that it feels that way, it almost feels a little less well, I was gonna say, a little less specific and a little more experimental. Like some it could have been more experimental in terms of like the ideas that they were presenting in the way that they were doing the music. But for me, the way the movie presents it being I mean, again, there are these weird anachronisms throughout and they're in every version of Jesus Christ Superstar. But again, the story of Jesus, given that it's a dramatization, it doesn't necessarily have to be set in fucking four BC. But that's the other thing.

And the way the movie frames it is interesting because it shows the kind of the players showing up into the desert of what is Palestine and Israel and like actually which I did not know, right, and like I mean it's like it's it's not beautifully shot, I would say, like it's And that's the other thing for me about something like this, I mean again like mentioning the fact, like great shot in Israel, shot in Palestine. These are the places where this took place, the real locations that are talked about in the Bible. That again, most modern people who study these kinds of things professionally can agree Jesus Christ probably exist, existed again, was he the son of God? That's gonna your mileage will vary with that.

But shooting it in Jerusalem, the Dead Sea, Nazareth like there, that adds something like it doesn't take away from the movie, but it also doesn't add anything of fun or excitement or subversiveness. And that's the thing. Like we watched certain performances from one of the stage productions of the musical, and it is more interesting to look at just on the face of it than this entire movie is. For the most part. Even the weird anachronisms of tanks showing up at one point chasing Judas, fighter jets flying over Judas, I mean, the Roman soldiers looking like California dude like surf Nazis like it's super weird.

Yeah, it's and again like these are the choices that are being made to introduce strange anachronisms into this story because again a the way that they're presenting it in this movie is again, these are people in modern day going and doing this play in the desert, putting this on. You get tanks and fighter jets again and then never show back. And that's the thing that bothers me is that they use the tanks to be like the Romans and like it was on screen for like what a grand total of ten seconds, and like Judas is like running away from them see the tanks again, It's just like, yep, there were tanks. It's like why why do you need that that be? I feel like that cost money and someone just said, you know, look cool, let's get some tanksit here, Like that's fine.

But it's like, if you're gonna make something, I don't think everything needs to be polished like to a perfect degree, but there there should be a level of everything has a purpose, unless if the purpose is to be absurd, which I don't get the vibe that this is trying to be absurd. I'm getting the vibe that it's trying to be like provocative, but I don't know what I'm supposed to be provoked into understanding from seeing four tanks slowly, uh, come over, come over a sand dune for ten seconds? Why then? And that's the thing, and that's the the issue that I have with this presentation of the musical is that, like the things that are supposed to be interesting do not serve anything anyways, because again, like you mentioned, like things are seemingly done.

The only things that I can explain away are these people have come to the desert together. We see them all as normal people before they take on the roles of the characters that they're playing, and then we see them at the end of the movie leave the desert together spoilers except for one person. Can you imagine who that person might be? Uh? But that's the thing.

It's like, those two things make perfect sense. And the things that they do to get around that, like the fact that the troop for the most part, is the same people portraying like the audience, the audience that Jesus that asks Jesus to be killed, or the mob if you want to call them that, because again that's the way they're portrayed but these people show up multiple times other than kind of like the main players like Judas and Jesus and the Apostles, So they're making do with the people that they have, which makes sense given the framing device used here. But like there are, like you said, there are other things that happen that make no fucking sense, like tanks, like jets, and again, like if this is just meant to be like, oh, look, we're in Israel and Palestine during Israel's occupation of this area after this six year war whatever, it is, like okay, fine, but like, like you just mentioned, to what end are we doing that?

Because there that seems to be something that say you with that right, Like that seems to be something that the director and the cinematographer are injecting into this as opposed to it coming from the stage play, because the stage plays intent is what the intent of the movie ends up being. But it's just not done very well because other things are getting in the way, which is did the message of Jesus get in the way of who Jesus was? And did it was his message amplified by the right or wrong people? And and kind of in in all of these things coming together does does the message of Jesus and Jesus Christ, which one matters more? And I would say, like that question has not been answered yet, because that is part of the Christianity problem at hand now, which is, if Jesus matters so much, why aren't you listening to his teachings?

And if you're not listening to his teachings, why do you care about Jesus to begin with? And that's the question that Jesus Christ Superstar one of the questions I poses and it uses. And again I think the smartest thing about the musical is the character of Judas being put upon by the same God that's asking Jesus to die. The same God is asking Judas to sell Jesus out because he has to, because God is telling him what to do best we can tell. And then Judas bristles at that at the end and says, you know, well, why am i having Like Judas and Jesus have two kind of warring songs, one about Jesus in the Garden of Besemine talking about God, why are you killing me?

And then Judas asking God, why did you do me to kill myself? Aid? Why am I doomed to want to kill myself because I've essentially doomed my name to the dust bin of history or the sewer of history. I mean again, he's literally in the lake of fire for a lot of Christians, or at least Dante, I mean not in this portrayal. I wouldn't have known that, right, and that portrayed it.

He goes to heaven. That's very clear in both versions that you saw, because in the stage version he also descends from heaven, which is literally antithetical to what I would consider to be most of Christianity, if not almost all, of Christianity's interpretation of Judas, which is he sold Jesus out for twelve pieces of silver. And while that does happen here, Judas throws that back and says, you know, I don't want any of this. But that's not a version of Judas that I think most Christians would be normally okay with accepting. Yeah, I mean, you bring up the interesting point is that it's it's clear that all of it was supposedly a part of God's plan, and so God wanted Judas to do that, to put this plan into motion, and it makes sense for following what God wanted despite committing suicide, which is one of the big no nos.

As far as I know that he winds up going to heaven, where I'm assuming that's what happened in the Bible, that he followed the you know, the the ultimate path that God had laid out, killed himself and then instead went to hell, which it's just I don't know. Narratively, it's less satisfying. Well, I got to confront the writers of the Bible, and that's the thing. Like in the Bible, Judas takes the money and throws it back. So again, those things do happen, but where the story takes the Judas character after he commits suicide is just again like it is literally the version of the Bible that again would make more sense, that interpretation would make more sense because, like you just mentioned, if the intent if everyone is if we can, if we can look at this objectively and say, everybody in the Bible or in Jesus Christ superstar by extension, is following God's will, or at least they what they believe to be God's will, and that is again what we're interpreting as they're following.

Then Judas did exactly what God asked of him, which means that, I mean, Jesus doesn't die without Judas selling him out, and so how could Jesus die for our sins? So how is Judas anything more than just a complex figure who had to make what anyone right now, even in modern times, would consider to be the hardest decision possible, which is selling out your best friend and someone who you believe to be the literal messiah walking on earth for thirty pieces of silver. Like that decision is not made lightly, even if you are following God's will, because that is a hard decision to make, regardless of time and era. And that's the more interesting story, is what is at core of someone who has no choice in making that decision and has to do it because they know that that's what's intended.

That's a much more interesting question, and that's what Jesus Christ Superstar kind of starts getting to. But the movie doesn't get there at all because the presentation of certain musical numbers, it seems like they're just doing it as a counterpoint to what we've seen in the movie, and it's like, oh, it's kind of a James Brown solely funky R and B number, So we'll just have them kind of do like a Vegas show thing, and like it's just like to like you just mentioned again, to what end are you doing this if it's not just to be stylistically different for the sake of doing it. One thing I want to say about the structure of the movie overall is I wish that it's started earlier in the timeline. I feel like where the starting point is opening with you know, opening with Judas making that first step towards betrayal, basically like deciding that, like this is the path that he's going to go down seeing all of the things that Jesus is doing that no longer seems in line with what he was originally teaching, or you know, putting everyone in danger heaven on their minds, which is a great opening song, Like it's it's a great song.

So I wish they had started, you know, with the prologue of the of the conception and who who was he and how did he get to this point? I feel like that would have added so much more intrigue. I feel like I would have been much more connected to him as a character, you know, just like forgetting about the Bible for a second, if if, if we could for the sake if we were able. I feel so detached from all of the characters. I it does not feel feel solid, you know, I don't feel fully realized at all.

No, it's just they feel like characters more than they feel like people. They feel like it's very clear that they're playing a part, which I mean, if it is to be set up as a group of you know, like a performing troop, then that makes total sense. But it doesn't make it an interesting watch. It like it is in and of itself, a choice. That's a choice, right, Like it's a choice, but the question is is it a good choice?

It's a justifiable choice, but is it a good interesting, you know, choice of that makes the movie better? I would argue, you know, I feel like the other interpretation as well, is like, is this a traveling troop or are they just a bunch of hippies having an acid trip in the desert? Like that I'm more fun. I don't know. Well, that's what I was joking about.

When the movie ends, again spoilers for a book that's been out since BC or a story that's been around that almost that long. Jesus dies at the end, and in this version, Ted Neely who plays Jesus because again we're assuming that we're seeing Ted Neely the actor go from being the actor Ted Neely to Jesus Christ Superstar and then he dies as Jesus Christ, and then he does not come back as Ted Neely, and they notice that and they leave. But like, again, what does that mean? What is that serving? If it's serving anything?

And that comes back to what you said, which is it is a choice that they have made. But that is the choice that they have made in the movie version. In the musical Jesus Christ Superstar, it is just taking place as best can be seen, during the time of Jesus, which is what the movie is trying to kind of split the diff right. They're trying to say, Okay, it's taking place during modern times, which is why the anachronisms are there. But that also allows to say, well, we're just setting it in Jerusalem and Palestine.

So that's why they're dressed up this way, and that's why they're walking through these canyons that are washed out, because this is that part of the world with those white fucking deserts, and that's what you like. And there is something that's been very little set design in comparison with the stage performance, it's so bare bones. There's no like they're in a fucking cave at one point, there's no houses. Nobody has a house. Yeah, you go a single house that But I'll tell you that there's a couple settings that are interesting.

I would I would say that that underground cavern thing is interesting, right, Like, at least at least there's something going on. It's an interesting setting. I mean, I've never seen something like that, never been anywhere like that. We like these like canyons and stuff. I mean when I asked you while we were watching it where they shot it, and you said Arizona, And it's like, well, oops, you kind of like you don't necessarily succeed in a lot of ways, because again, the desert can just be the desert, which is why Spaghetti Western's got away with it for so long, because there are deserts in Italy that look shockingly like the West.

And that's the thing. It's like, again, I get that this choice was made, and I get that they're trying to do a quote anachronistic but yet somehow faithful recreation of the story, but yeah, it robs it of any fun subversiveness that all these other interpretations that exist out there easy to find that don't require you to pay money like this version does, because this version is only available right now to rent streaming anywhere. Those versions offered, like you said, something more than just oh, it's the story of Jesus. But they're like a traveling troop. But to your point, they don't do anything with it.

So why does that matter? And the moment that you kind of think, oh, they're going to do something with it at the end of the movie, they don't. Like there's an interesting shot at the end of the movie that kind of you see what's assumed to be ted Neely as Jesus walking with his flock of sheep behind him. But so what, like that's an interesting shot, but like did he die? I think I joked with you at the end, like come Jesus, yeah, and you become this What this teaches me is that anyone could be Jesus.

That's it. Yeah, great, I mean what else? What else? I literally don't know how else to interpret that other than if you play the role of Jesus, you become Jesus, which I don't think is a good I mean, I kind of want to because like, but what you just said, like again, like that could theoretically, in and of itself, be a way to interpret Jesus Christ Superstar and by extension, the story of Jesus, which is like that, Like you said that Jesus had a part to play, and he played his part well, And so the question is, like, if any one of us played that part, could we not have been Jesus in and of ourselves? And I do wonder.

I mean again, I've I've had this conversation. I think you and I have had this conversation with scary stories and the question of like if there is no God and our own consciousness when we die just goes into the but we're able to control where it goes just by our own existence doing that, Are we then, in and of ourselves our own God? Because we, by belief or force of will, are able to manifest ourselves into something afterwards? That is what we want, which is what everybody always talks about with heaven, It's what someone has always wanted. I mean, heaven is a place where you want to go.

That's why so many people strive for it. That's why so many people have done so many things in the name of it. So are we not just playing out our own part in that way? And are we not our own kind of you know? Because of this the question of Jesus is Jesus inspired other people and the man who was Jesus died, but his message lived on.

And I mean again, like, I don't think that the message of Jesus is inherently wrong any more than you do. Like, I mean, he preached some pretty smart stuff. Don't be a piece of shit to other people, be kind, be caring. I mean, those things tend to get lost, and all the other terrible shit people have done in the name of Jesus. Just beside the point.

I tell a mother of two small children that because of their religion, they're automatically going to burn for all eternity unless they accept Jesus as their untrue savior. Yeah, I remember where that was in the Bible for sure, right. Or prostlytizing to your friend while you're eating Chinese food together during college and your friend just being like, hey, man like, and I'm not gonna ever believe in this bullshit. I don't care how much fucking flavored your ass is drunk. In the last couple of years.

But I'm good because that happened to me and that was an uncomfortable situation. Yeah, I'm not friends with that person anymore. Yeah, that's always uncomfortable, I know. And then we could talk about that for a while and they don't realize it, which is fine. But that's the thing again, like we are the no well I mean they, I mean hey, yeah, I mean sure, as far as they know we I mean me personally.

I believe that human beings have a lot of autonomy, We have a lot of free will, We have a lot of ability to define our own story. We are the authors of our own journey through life. That is what I genuinely believe now, forever, yesterday, tomorrow, until the end of time, which in my mind is not something that a lot of Christians believe, because Christians are okay with seeding levels of control over to other people in the way that you see Judas and Jesus seed control of their lives over to God quote unquote, because again, Jesus could have left. Judas didn't have to sell out Jesus, but her God's will they did. And the question then becomes God's will free will?

Who, if God exists, why would he want you to do terrible things? Like if God existed, why would he be okay with these things? Unless God is not as altruistic as ever as certain people believe him to be through certain interpretations. But that again is the questionnaire. It's like, what is the point of any of this if all we're doing is misinterpreting the message?

And that's the question that Judas asked in this entire movie, is what is the point of the message? If there's no consistency to it, nobody can figure out what the point is. And that's where we are now as a society, which is again the message has become so crowded and there doesn't seem to be anybody who can agree on anything anymore, even Christians among themselves. And that's what Judas asks, is like, are we even doing what we said we were doing to begin with? Again?

Is the message or is Jesus more important than the message? Or is the message important? Because again, we live in times where people who are claiming to be Christian don't seem to be doing the things that Jesus I think would be okay with. So what whose cart and whose horse is being put in front of? What right it.

I feel like that the way that this movie is laid out, it doesn't feel like it paints Christianity in a positive light. The ending kind of feels, I guess a little different, like during like the Crucifixion and like everything that follows that. I feel like maybe there's a bit of a tunnel shift in that regard, but like other than that, but like, other than that, it doesn't feel like they support, like the writers support Christianity in any way like it. It feels like, more than anything, they're calling out the followers of Christianity to look at this in a different lens because a lot of people who believe these things are oftentimes uncomfortable with different interpretations and being able to see this, this type of this story that you know, people are already familiar with through the eyes of somebody else through just like with a different connotation behind it, a different level of context that maybe was not there and other versions, and like that does not paint Jesus as this sure like a flawed but like otherwise like perfect man, right, because that's like what it comes out to is like I feel like a lot of other interpretations is like this is the ideal human, like this is what we all should be.

Yes, he has his flaws, we're all flawed, but like, the isn't he the best person to have ever walked the earth waiting for our sins supposedly, And like I feel like that's usually the tone that I've seen in other media that's telling similar stories about Jesus and in regards to the Bible, and this one doesn't do that. It doesn't feel like it's constantly like patting Jesus on the back or saying, oh oh boohoo, Jesus had it so hard. Like it doesn't feel like it's doing that constantly, because I feel like that's what that's what the other ones are. It's like either wow, Jesus here, Wow, you're amazing, You're so cool and you prove everyone who doesn't believe any wrong, or oh my god, Jesus cool, Jesus is cool God, or it's just like you see, you messed me up.

It's so late. How am I supposed to be anachronism? Anachronism? His songs are jarring. It's jarring.

You've jarred me. It's more jarring, even more than like the Superstar song at the end where they're talking about Buddha and Mohammad like that I totally jive with. But like when they go Jesus is cool, it's like what Genie from Aladdin. You know, yeah, at that point you've like ascended right. You can see forward and backward, left and right in time.

And you know you mentioned the interpretation of Jesus Christ right, And yet shockingly this movie is not. This movie and musical are not popular with Christianity because again, there are plenty of things to get upset at. I mean, look at how sympathetic Judas is being portrayed. Look at Jesus Christ being portrayed as a complex individual as opposed to someone who went willingly to his death and didn't didn't struggle with it. So there are plenty of things that could be seen as blasphemous.

I will say the movie and the musical don't necessarily do anything to contradict, and I would say disprove, but stop furthering the conversation about the Jewish faith being responsible for Deacide, which the movie and the musical and any interpretation, because that's just the story it's telling more or less says is what happened because Caiaphas and honest. Two of the clearly coded villain characters by both immediately the dress by both the register in which the actors are singing. One is a bass and one is like a countertenor, which are in their own right to very specific things that elicit very specific reactions from you as a listener, like those are Jewish priests, and so like, it doesn't do anything to put to bed that controversy, which I think is just as important a controversy to address, which is that whole thing of like antisem that version of anti Semitism, which is a version of antisemitism that exists in the world, which is Jews are the responsible for the death of Jesus.

It's like Jesus was a fucking Jew, idiots, and I really like that. That's a good jingle. Jesus was a fucking Jew. I mean he was, but like the Jewish faith whole cloth is blamed for Jesus dying. But it's like, guys, you you morons are the same morons that that are putting Jesus Christ the person ahead of Jesus Christ the message.

So again, like I'm I'm not I don't bristle at it too much, but I don't think it's something that needs to continue into the twenty first century much further. This like misinterpretation of what happened to blame a group of people to further anti Semitism, because in the world right now, we don't need any of that shit for anybody, period. I'm not taking a side on any of this shit, but we don't need it for anybody at all, period. And there's, like I said, there's no way to get around it, because it's part and parcel of the story that they're telling. At least they're not being portrayed stereotypically, which I appreciate, but again, like there is no way to get around the base narrative that they're telling.

So it's fine. I mean again, like Judas is normally nine times out of ten, ten, ten times out of ten portrayed and presented as the villain of the Jesus story, and this movie doesn't do that. So right there, and then it's already at odds with the Bible, and most people who are Christians have checked out because that's like one of the things you can't fuck with is like Judas, because like the term to be a Judas is a thing that everybody knows, not just Christian. So like that, in and of itself, I think speaks volumes to how bizarre an interpretation this already is. But I feel like the movie version is trying to like course correct it back to something recognizable, and for me and clearly for you, that is like a big fucking misstep.

Like I really think as much as like Norman Jewison and everybody else probably thought, like this is gonna be a great idea, We're gonna take it, and we're just gonna do it. We're gonna go. We're gonna go, guys, like we're gonna go to Palestine. We're gonna go to Israel. Like these are places that are still then and now, places that you choose to be there because there's a lot of stuff going on there that many people, myself and yourself included, would not want to immediately invest ourselves in.

And these actors and director and film crew went there and filmed this movie, which in and of itself I think is admirable, But it's admirable from a technical standpoint, and that only carries you so far. Recently, having conversations about the Revenant, a Leonardo DiCaprio movie, that not a whole lot of people are talking about in twenty twenty four for plenty of reasons. It was a technically impressive film, but outside of that, for me, it didn't give me much to chew on. Jesus Christ Superstar. The movie in a lot of ways has a similar problem, which is there's a lot that the musical itself provide, but the movie, the way it's doing it doesn't.

It doesn't really serve the musical, even I am. It's almost like it's just a Jesus Christ story that they're like, oh right, we have to do the fucking Jesus Christ Superstar thing too, Like, yeah, I can't tell if they're taking themselves seriously or not, which is a problem. That's a cognitive dissonance that I have, because like I feel like there are points where it's just straight up goofy, and then there are points where it's like this but this part, this part, guys, is serious and he's dying on the cross folks, we got sad tears, tears, I lost cell being King herod dancing around as a gay coded character. However, what is that supposed to be? Like that?

That's the question, right, Like what it's like we're losing them. Like that's what it feels like. It's like, all right, we got to do something fun because at this point we're probably losing them. It's like, I don't know, do the people that make the movie are like do they like are they Christian? Are do they believe in this in the ultimate like message of you know, Jesus's teachings and like are they or are are they neutral?

Like? And I like it? That's that's the It's hard for me to understand, like what the intention behind the making of it. Is it meant to be like a parody? Is it meant to be a thought piece?

Is it meant to be just a fun retelling? Like I don't know, is it meant to be serious? It doesn't feel like it. But then like the ending is like hey, tone shift, big old tone shift. Best I can tell with everything that I have read, it seems like it's just, oh, you know, we have this story that everybody knows, and wouldn't it be interesting to do a story about the relationships between Jesus and Mary and Judas and to go more in depth and like give it some like life and body and something that you can really hold on to and like that's all it seems to be.

It doesn't seem like anybody was like, well, we have amusing an idea or we're gonna go in. It's like and like and that's the thing. Like, it seems like other interpretations of this do have something to say or want to say something more than just oh. If not for the fact that there's a couple scenes that really don't jive with a traditional interpretation of the story, this could have just been a traditional interpretation of this story, which is a shame because the things that do stand out, even though I don't like the interpretations of the songs in the scene. And you talked about this, and we talked about cats last week with Rumpel teaser and what the fuck is the other one's name a Mango Jerry Mango Jerry.

Like that version of the song in the movie is fucking god awful, I know, and it hurts and it's not even like a it's not even like within the interpretation of the movie, a fun version. It's just a poor version of the version of it's the song that's really see, it's just lazy. And so we come to King Herod's song in Jesus Christ Superstar the movie. Josh Mostel, Zero Mostelle's son. Zero Mostelle played Heavia on Fiddler on the in Fiddler on the Roof on Broadway, so has has has some credibility.

He was also King Herod. I guess in just this movie version. It is such a bizarre interpretation of a song that I had heard for literally years before seeing this movie, a version that I really like by Mike Dabo, who just there's like a theatricality to it that the movie doesn't. It's not that the movie doesn't hint at it, but the movie's doing something very different, where King Herod is a big character, but big in a different way. You mentioned it when we were listening to the version, because we didn't see the version the Mike Dabo version, just we heard it.

He is a lot more bombastic in a Elton John kind of way. In the movie. It's just to say it's gay coded might be an understatement. It's very flamboyant, but not it's not sung as well. It's a little sing songy, spoken wordy.

I'm not gonna say lin Manuel Miranda because I think Linn Manuel Miranda's sing song is more melodic than this. This is just like, dude, dude, I don't know. It's like, it's not it's not grounded the same way the other the stage version is and love this term. The term you're looking for is go on, girl, give us nothing. Yeah, it's just like it's it's and again, like the version of that song that you like in Cat' twenty nineteen, is it great in and out of the musical?

I do think in the musical movie version of Jesus Christ Superstar that song works because it's such a breakup of everything else that we've literally been seeing. That just is so samey and it's so weird. It helps you get through like the last twenty five minutes like it, which is just a fucking slow I just it just kept going. It just took so long. Well that's the thing.

Like Superstar. The song in the stage play is taking place while Jesus is going up on the cross. You saw it in the version, yeah, we watched. The movie version doesn't do that. The movie version has it happening chronologically, so Superstar happens and then Jesus is on the cross, and then we see hear Jesus giving his final words and then Jesus dies and like and that's it, and like the last song is in the movie version, the last song is Jesus Christ Superstar or it's Superstar as it's called.

And so that's how the movie ends. I mean, like there's not really anything else, Like there's literally nothing else. They just leave and that's it. And so it seems like it would have been better suited to have him dying while that song is being played, because again in the state, and it's very subversive, because like it really speaks to like, did this guy really need to die for his sins? Was Jesus Christ that actually the son of God?

Or as Tim Rice I think said, like he was just the right guy in the right place at the right time, And like that also could be a valid interpretation if you if you want to really boil it down much, can you believe in himself? Right? Right? Is the question that I think most of this is trying to get at, is who was Jesus to Jesus? Right?

And I feel like that's a very interesting question. I feel like that's not something that most interpretations are willing to touch on because, as you said before, like it's very blasphemous, like how dare you question Jesus's intention? And yet I feel like it is such a fascinating lens to look at it through. But then again, like believers, strong believers of this don't want fascinating They they want their pure interpretation, and that's understandable. But as somebody obviously who is not attached to that, but who has been subjected to hearing about Jesus throughout my life, I definitely think it's a very interesting lens that I have not personally considered before, because I mean, I guess I never thought that hard about it, but I like that that's thought provoking.

But then again, that's not the movie. That's you know, that's the stage play, and the movie just kind of took that. It doesn't it's not the movie doing something super interesting on its own, right is still there? The movie doesn't do anything super interesting on its own, And that's the same way that I feel about Cats. The few things that it did try to do that were different on its own that came purely from the conception of the new writers of the movie version were all failing.

They weren't interesting, they weren't fun, they did not meet expectation. It felt forced and so all of the good things, all of the fun things, those are taken directly from the source, and that sucks. It sucks that there's nothing about this that would be better than seeing the stage play, because that's really what it feels like the most interesting thing would be the setting, and there's not that much that happens with it. And again, like maybe that was the intention if they're supposed to be like a traveling troup of performers, Like I get that, like you know, if you're doing a pop up performance, you don't really have a lot to deal with like setting, but like I don't know, I don't know how much that adds or is just an explanation to do less, right, because like that's kind of what it feels.

It just kind of feels like a justification for not trying as hard a limitations justification is what it feels. Yes, And like again, like there is something to be said for like a stripped down, peared down really kind of like they're on location and they're doing weird things, but like again, like that's not even it. It's just like yeah, it's kind of just like whatever. They're kind of just doing what you would expect them to be doing if this were just a thing about Jesus anyways, and in a lot of ways, like that's not necessarily a bad thing, if you know what I mean, Like in a lot of ways, like this just being a good movie about Jesus could in and of itself be okay. I guess, like that's that's what I don't like know, Like you know, the reaction to this movie seems to be like not necessarily positive or negative, but like it is one of the movies that has like been voted on and I forget who was voting on it where, but they were like, this is one of the best movies about Jesus, and it's like, I mean a gag.

Yes, like if it's just if we're just talking about it widely as like a movie about the Jesus story, Like could you do better? I don't know, could you do worse? Yeah? At least this has sort of songs, like there are things that are fun about the movie. Again there when we've kind of talked about it, King Herod's song is kind of fun.

It was huffing to Post. That's where they voted that this was the best movie about Jesus. Sure No, Sure can you, he know, I want to know what the Rotten Tomato score is. The rott Tomato score for this movie I want to say, without seeing it immediately, is I, oh, should we replace bets? We used to do this a long time ago.

I would like ask, like, what do you think the ron Tomato score is? And like this was before became a thing, and then like I stopped doing it when Ron Tomatoes became a thing because I hated it. Uh so, what do you think the ron Tomatoes score is? Audience score forty three audience score, So you're what about the Tomato meter because that's a different thing. The tomato meter.

Is it the average of the two? No, the tomato meter is like the critics the audio critics. Okay, so I think the critics would say thirty eight. So the critics are you you're year off, but you're not off by as much as I think you you think you might be. So the Jesus Christ Superstar movie that we watched from nineteen seventy three has a Rotten Tomato score of forty eight percent based on twenty nine reviews and seventy six percent audience score based on topenty five thousand plus reviewed.

So not a small number on the that's honestly, like, it did not have my attention as much as I think it wanted to. I think that there are significantly more interesting. I feel like, if anything, the audience just gave it extra kudos because it's Jesus. And honestly, I hate that that I don't like. I mean, it's all but again like also like I think I'm I don't I think that also the audience for this is the people who like the musical and that may not have anything to do with Jesus.

Like again, like, I don't think that Christians like this. Christians don't like this because this isn't what they want it to be. But I also don't know if it is it is that popular. No, but I mean, like I love the stage production of Cats. I hate the movie because it's worse, But the movie made money, remember because of how popular the stage plays, which is why this is as what look, there's only one movie version because of people who saw the stage play.

I mean the Cats. I mean again similarly to Cats, just like Cats, this is a mega successful musical that Andrew Lloyd Webber made. So I mean like there are three there are three and only three film versions of Andrew Lloyd Webber plays ivida Jesus Christ Superstar and Cat. I guess four Jesus Christ Superstar and fan about the opera. That's it.

There haven't been anything else, and those are the four, Like like that's the thing. Like you're like, I agree with you. I see where you're where you're coming at this from. But at the same time, I think, like this, in similarity to Katz is like I think this was Cats of the seventies is what this feels like? And like that, And like I think maybe more to your point that is lost in the film interpretation for us in twenty twenty four, like why is this so fucking popular?

Why is there a movie version of this? I don't think that the movie, just like you said with Kats twenty nineteen, I don't think this movie justifies its existence at all because it doesn't do anything differently. And again, if you're trying to like give us a weird framing device, like why not just have it be the fucking story, Like you don't do anything, so just have it be the Jesus story. And like if it had been that, there may have been more interesting things you could have done, but instead they kind of don't do either. They kind of pick both, which for me is it's that idea of like you're a jazz of all trades and master of Nune and it's like yeah, by having like oh that fun scene with King Herod and that fun scene at the end with the ghost of or the Angel of Judas and like the Judas you know, heaving on their minds at the beginning of the movie, like yeah, those are great performances.

Yeah, those are great songs, but those are great songs on state, so whoo whoop de doo, like the movie. The movie in one of the cases of the songs doesn't add anything. It actually detracts in terms of my version and appreciation that I have come to be accustomed to with King Herod's song. But again, like why why do any of this this way if you're not gonna do more with it? And that's that is the failing of the movie, because the questions that are being asked on the stage are kind of lessened in the movie because they're just kind of not doing anything really interesting the way that they're thinking they are.

I think they're being a lot more. I think they think they're cleverer than they actually are, which is the worst kind of trait, right, like a yeah, oi be roight oi big oi be. My My ultimate thought on like why is why was the movie as popular as it was is I'm assuming ninety five percent of the people that wanted to see the stage play could not, right, because they could not get to it, they could not afford it. And so it's like I want to see Jesus Christ Superstar and your mom goes, we have Jesus Christ Superstar at home, Like that's it's what it feels like. It's like you can't experience the good version, but you can at least experience it kind of right, you can experience it like that is like you are you are getting Jesus Christ Superstar.

And it's just like and again, like we live in a time of wonders and magic now where we can see a stage version put on at a point in time that does not exist anymore that is better than the movie version, but that didn't exist then and that technology wasn't around then, so right there you go, and like yeah, it does kind of suffer even now because again it's it's now. It's just now. It's just like a version that you can watch that is lesser because there are other versions out there that are better. There have been. This version was there's a movie version, So there's this one, and then there's the version that I showed you, which I think is from like the late two thousands, and then in twenty eighteen they did one of those like live in concert things on NBC and John Legend played Jesus.

So there is another another version that I'm I mean, that would be interesting. I've seen the there's in Alice Cooper King Herod version because he plays King Herod. Alice Cooper does in that version, and it's kind of like this one. It's weird in a fun it works on that version and wouldn't work anywhere else way. But I mean, for the longest time, this was it.

Like you said, like, if you wanted to see Jesus Christ Superstar, here you go. This is it. If you didn't have the better thing to compare it to, what are you gonna do? Yeah, and similar lead to cats from nineteen ninety eight, that VHS version, it's that in reverse. Now there are better versions of Jesus Christ Superstar to see, and this version is kind of the lesser because again, and yes, it's asking the questions of the musical, but the musical is asking them, so it's not a credit to the movie.

It's a credit to the musical and the people who wrote the musical. Cats different similar problem, different order. The nineteen ninety eight version of Cats, I think is the literal best version of Cats that you can watch easily. I mean, that's the one that you and I kept referring to when we were being subjected to the twenty nineteen version. Twenty nineteen version comes out seemingly for no reason other than Andrew Lloyd Webber's Cats is a megamusical.

We talked about that planning on the last episode, and like you've mentioned already and alluded to, it doesn't do anything. It actually makes the musical so much worse just on the face of it, with those horrifying CGI creatures that we can't even get to look at the story because those things there's such a distraction. They ruin Jesus Christ Superstars similarly here by just oh, we're gonna do something, but we don't really choose anything interesting and it's such a shape. So final thoughts on Jesus Christ Superstar don't watch it if you don't want to. It's not necessary.

It's it sure was. If you're curious and you enjoy movies from this time period, being like the seventies, just for the sake of, you know, the esthetic, or that's just the type of stuff you like, then yeah, you might find it relatively entertaining. If you're a big fan of Jesus, I don't know how you're gonna feel about this, unless if you're open to challenging ideas. Uh yeah, I mean it just it. It felt like I could have gone my life without it if not for the fact that I have heard for so for so long that my mom hates it.

And now I have a much better understanding as to why it feels like everything wrong with an adaptation. It's just other than the fact that, like, I mean, the actors were good for the most part, but they're from the stage. They right, it's but it's just like everything else is lacking, and like I budget, I get it, limitations of technology at the time, I get it, but are those explanations or are those excuses? I feel like they could have done something so much more interesting and they chose not to, And that's sad. I feel like this.

I feel like if I saw the stage production, I would have a much different opinion because it would be so much more engaging. I only saw like a few of the songs, and it's night and day the same way the both versions of Cats are. And that's sad because the source material seems to be amazing and this just kind of gives it a bad rap. And so unless if I go and have like a Jesus Christ Superstar marathon where I just find all of the videos on you to and compile them into like one playlist, I'm sure it already exists, and just watch it all and get my opinion from there. Otherwise, I'm gonna say that Jesus Christ Superstar as a whole isn't all that good, which isn't fair to the stage play.

And it sucks that my exposure to this was the movie, because I bet the stage play is infinitely better. But yeah, you know, if this isn't the type of movie that you would see otherwise, you're not missing out. I think it's interesting you mentioned the seventies aspect of the movie, because that may be the like the overwhelming success of this movie unintentionally is the like seventies miss of this movie. It's overwhelmingly seventies. All of the production design in terms of the costumes are seventies, and like, yeah, like that's a success, but an unintentional success in the face of like so many other things that are failings.

And like you said, in a perfect world, the hubris of filmmakers is tempered by the reality that you can be as engaging on stage with a wide canvas of a landscape just as much as someone with a narrow focus like a camera. But filmmakers really have taken it upon themselves to say, well, we got to make the We got to really take the stage and make it, like make it expansive. And it's like the best stage plays are expansive with doing so little and so like with such a minimal budget or minimal space that that in and of itself is much more impressive than the most amazing CGI creature created by ILM or Wetta or anybody. And that I mean that is Cat's twenty nineteen. You had millions upon millions of dollars spent trying to render something realistic cat people looking, and they fucking failed so hard.

The movie can't ever be a success because of that alone. And Jesus Christ Superstar has the same problem. You think that what you're going to bring to this is more important than what the creators brought to it already, and us what it isn't. Stage is like for so many people, musicals and stage is so underrated as a art form because really, some of the best character studies in media are done on stage, are done through musicals, and Jesus Christ Superstar has one of those, with Judas, a character who literally for an entire religion is the villain and he's not the hero of the story, but he's definitely not the villain because he comes from heaven at the end, preaching that maybe Jesus's message really wasn't that important because there seemed to be a bunch of other ones flying around too.

Look that in and of itself should have been much more important than showing us tanks chasing Judas through the desert. But hey, we got that too, So cool, thanks everybody that for me, so camp it's well, and that's the thing. It's like it could have been, but it really even isn't like it's it's so it's such a failure in so many ways. That, like you said, it's just it, it's an it's how you do adaptations poorly, and my god, I feel like every single Andrew Lloyd Weber adaptation is an example in a different way of how you don't do an adaptation. Cats, the CGI creatures Jesus Christ Superstar trying to do just the Jesus Christ story but not but doing it, but not Ivida, I mean, Ivida is just Madonna can't do what Patty Lapone can do.

And boy, I mean I get it. It's Madonna and Antonio Panderas can't sing either until he can is a cat, which is weird in Puss in Boots, And then Phantom of the Opera is this is what happens when you don't cast people who know how to sing, which like Cats didn't really I mean, Cat's Nicy Cats sort of has that problem, but not really Cats has a different, really big issue the Cat people, But like Phantom of the Opera is like Gerard Butler and Emmy Rossam can't sing and it's a parent because those are really hard songs for even the most talented stage actors to sing. And if you're gonna be on stage for some people at a certain time in your career. You had to be a triple threat. You had to be able to do boreography, you had to be able to sing, and you had to be able to deliver dialogue without forgetting it.

Those three things not necessarily actors can do. And that's why in this movie they have all the people from the stage play. But guess what, can't do anything about it because the movie itself doesn't do anything with it. It just kind of goes, we're gonna do the Jesus thing, and you know, they kind of already talked about it in the musical. So if we just adapt parts of the musical more or less directly, that's enough.

And it's not. And you know what, don't I would say, like, oh, I'd love to see another filmed version of Jesus Christ Superstar, but I wouldn't because there already exists other versions. The tim mentioned as Judas version that you can watch on YouTube is a great example of that where it's, like we mentioned, watching them do something interesting with the source material but not getting in the way of the message, but also amplifying the message in a subversive way. And this movie thinks it's doing it, and it's not, and hey, you know what, more power to you. But to your point, I think for me, I have now seen it the movie, and I think I am good.

I can't wait to tell my mom tomorrow that she was right right, And I can't wait to go listen to the versions of the songs that I like more from the various other versions that aren't this one. Which is not to say that these versions of the songs aren't good in and of their own right, because there are some that are good, but for the most part they're kind of lost in a otherwise mediocre adaptation of what seems to be a pretty popular stage. So on that note, we'll take a break and we'll play some ads, and then we'll play a preview for what we're gonna be talking about on the next episode. From weirding Way Media, Cambridge, and with Shan is a podcast about two guys, obsessions, passions and hobbies.

Those two guys are Mark Bigley, host of Wake Up Heavy Recollections of Horror, and Ronald Zuriggian, host of the Skelevator YouTube channel. Each month, we talk about the toys, comics, movies, books, TV shows, and other cultural phenomena that captured our imaginations and helped shape who we are today. From Masters of the Universe to Saturday Night Live, Star Wars, to Harry Houdini, The Muppets to The Elephant Man. Ronnie and Mark dive deep into the recesses of their minds to pull out treasured memories of things lost but never forgotten. Join us on the first Tuesday of each month over at weirdinwaymedia dot com or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Join me Jamie Benning on the Filmmentaries podcast, particularly if you enjoy stories like design A Nila Rotis, jamiro Convince seeing George Lucas to push him around to help gain the support of his crew on the Ailing Howard, the duck Plam, the door opens its George, everybody gas. George makes a bee line to me, I'm literally back against the wall or here Puppeteer Tim Rose's emotional story behind that iconic Admiral Acbar shot in Return of the Jedi. I believe it or something to be proud of, but not the cell Burg or how Star was. Editor Paul Hirsch tackled cutting so many successful films. The thing that I learned from working with the Palmer is that tension depends on a clock.

You need to have the sense that time is running out. Maybe Oscar winning sound designer Mark Mangini's insightful chat about his work on Blade Runner twenty forty nine. Not a single sound from the original Blade Runner in the new film A great deal of inspiration. That's the film Youmentary's podcast with me Jamie Benning, Hello, Twisted Humans. Do you find yourself wanting to know more about the latest murder, conspiracy, cult or haunting than this is the podcast for you.

In nineteen fifty two, there was a record high of UFOs reported fifteen hundred sightings. There has been evidence of human sacrifice, double worship, and it is haunted by more spirits than can be counted. A family of two adults and two kids reportedly saw a giant flying thing with glowing red eyes. And meanwhile, the family's nanny that helped Veronica to care for her and Lucian's children, was found bludgeoned to death in the basement of their family home. I'm Militia and I'm Sierra and this is twisted and uncorked.

Lis, Sir, I want some more more. The word for Oliver is more it's much much more than a music. Oliver, the internationally famed stage triumph, now acclaimed by the International French as a monumental screen expert the situation can the fella be a villain all his life on Moody is fake? Oliver Read is Bill Sikes, Harry Seekim as mister Bumble Shady Wallace is Nancy Mark Lessener is Oliver. Jack Wilde has the dodge.

He's gonna be a right little You'll have fourteen marvelous numbers, including as long as he needs me and anything anything, it's a mine. It's remember our Odier's right. In the next episode, we're gonna be talking about another musical that is an adaptation of a story that is an adaptation of a musical. So we're gonna be talking about Oliver, which is a stage play based on Oliver Twist, which is by Charles Dickens Cool. I've never seen it, but it has Oliver Read in it.

Who add a tattoo on the tip of his penis, So that's yeah. I had a tattoo of an eagle with its claws out on the tip of his penis. It was amazing, right, I mean, one of the many stories about Oliver Reed. But he's in that and I'm excited to watch that on the next episode. Until then, you can find Emma and I over at Weirdingwaymedia dot com, where we do plenty of things together, not just this.

We talk about weird, spooky and scary shit over in scary stories we tell, and then we also talk about things on YouTube that Emma likes to show, Dustin and I on the Surreal Tube episodes. If you're more into talking about movies and TV like we do here, So those are the places you can go to do that. Head on over to patreon dot com slash culture cast, get in on the ten dollars level because rankin on Bond is going on right now, which is Richard HadAM, the projection booths, Mike White and myself talking about James Bond movies once a month for the next twenty six or twenty seven months, whatever it is by the time we get to the end. So yeah, those are things that you can check out over there. And yeah, Emma, thank you so much you're joining me and again staying up late to watch Andrew Lloyd Weber.

I don't know what that's all about. Well, we've done it twice twice in as many weeks, so it's an accomplishment. I feel fulfilled, but for probably less of the reasons than I anticipated before seeing this. I feel like I've checked something off of a bucket list that wasn't there before. That's the vibe.

I mean, you're two your three no are you seen fan of the opera? Right, so you're three quarters of the way to I haven't seen all the andre Lloyd. I mean, now all we have to do is stay up super late and watch Avida together, which, ah, I will tell you, Like, I have seen Ivida so many times because my parents loved the movie and I've seen the stage play. But it's at least more entertaining than this, Like it was like at least there's stuff going on, as opposed to like it's similarly to this, it's like a very stock in trade version of the musical, but at least like that's kind of okay. It's just Madonna's not great.

So yeah, until the next time we do an episode of the culture Cast, catch on the next episode,