ENCORE: Revisit Cagney and Lacey with Sharon Gless

Baby. Yes, why Sharon, what, Susan, We're at podcast Movement Evolutions this week. It's going to be super fun, Susan. Hopefully we'll learn a lot. I hope so too.

It's going to be amazing, Sharon. We haven't really taken a moment to recognize that we've been podcasting for like twenty months, which is kind of like if we were baby, we would be walking. That's over fifty episodes and over thirty one thousand downloads. So congrats to us for making a podcast we and hopefully some others enjoy. And I got to thank you Sharon for joining me on this crazy audio adventure.

Thank you for inviting me. I'm just so thrilled we get to do this together and I hope we continue for many wonderful years. So please y'all enjoy this encore presentation of our interview with the amazing actress and person Sharon Gless. This episode was nominated for an International Women's Podcast Award for Best Moment of Emotion. Can you pick out which moment we sent in?

And if you haven't listened to miss Sharon Gless herself, enjoy this. This one's a real treat. Jeers. Hello, and welcome to eighties TV Ladies. I'm Sharon Johnson and I'm Susan Lambert HadAM.

Let's get started. We are so joyful to be continuing our deep dive into Cagney and Lacey, the female driven buddy police show that ran from nineteen eighty two to nineteen eighty eight, and it proved the women could be buddies under pressure. A few episodes ago, we talked to the creator Barney Rosenswig, then Tyne Daily and now the incredible eighties TV Lady Christine Cagney herself. Actress Sharon Gless MS Gless is a multi Emmy and Golden Globe winning screen and stage actress. She may be best known for her role as Cagney in the eighties TV Ladies phenomenal show Cagney and Lacy, but she also played the title role in the Trials of Rosie O'Neill.

She also played the dirty mouth loving mom to a gay son, Debbie Nevatny for five years in the Daring American version of Querisfolk on Showtime, and then a tougher but still loving mother Madeline Weston on burn Notice as the last contract player at Universal Studios Gless also guest starred and co starred in many of TV's top rated series of the seventies and eighties, including The Rockford Files, The Bob Newhart Show, Marcus Wilby, MD, House Calls, and Switch Ms. Glasses also starred on the stage in major theatrical productions including Misery Chapter two and Round Healed Woman, and she is an author as well. Gless's award winning autobiography, Apparently There Were Complaints, was published by Simon and Schuster in December twenty twenty one.

Apple Audio Books named it a must listen. Published Weekly called Less a masterful storyteller and I call it a fantastically fun read. She's been married to Barney Rosenswig, the executive producer of Cagney and Lacy, and a guest of this show since nineteen ninety one. Welcome Sharon, Thank you so much for joining us at eighties TV ladies. Thank you, thank you very much for having me and to ask me, how are you doing today?

Doing very well. I'm very happy, I mean looking forward to doing this with you, and I'm very blessed. I'm physically well, and I've had a wonderful career and intend to continue to do. So, somebody did an article on me. You know, I've been doing this book and I'm doing interviews, and this mand interviewed and he said, you know that you've done more television series.

You've done nine television series. You and Florus Leechmann the only two women do honest. Wow, I didn't know that. And he said, yeah. The only person to beat here it was Betty Quite he's done, he's done.

He said, well, I'm gonna have to meet to match Betty that he has gone to the great you know, MCA and Sky, But I still have one more in me. So I don't intend to beat Betty, but I'd like to match her. Yea, I would like to see that. If I had to beat Betty, that means the next way I tried it wouldn't work right, and then I have to do another one. I'm happy to just match your You don't want to jinx anything.

No. That actually brings me to a question. Actually I had correct me if I'm wrong, But it sounds like moving to Florida has really not had an impact on your ability to continue working in television and working in general. Is that correct? Correct?

And very blessed. I moved to Florida because that's sort of has someone to go. He wanted to return, and he had a belief that you cannot retire from Hollywood and live in Hollywood. So okay, So we moved to Florida, and he's very, very happy. And I married to a man.

If she's happy, everybody's happy in her attarnment. But whenever I have got an an opportunity to work, he's the first feminist I ever met. So since I moved to Florida, I think I've done three series. So I was just free to go and travel and be and just continue to be an actress regardless of where I lived. Right, But I want to go back to the first feminist you ever met?

Was it really Barney? He's Bartie Rose saying Barney approached Finner to this series called Cagdy and Lacey, and I didn't realize he was a feminist. My background was I've been under contract Universal for many years, ten years, and in that day and age, even though Gloria Astynam had been out there swinging that bat, you know, I was not made politically aware. I was not aware of all the work that Glory was doing while I was under contract to Universal, and when Barney asked me to do this series, I didn't want to do it, not because it was true women. I didn't want to do into the cop show anyway, He's hiring me to do Kage and they say I started learning.

I didn't realize the impact that this show was having. I knew it was about two women. I'd never start in a show with a woman before. It had always done with men. And what I was trying to see is I never felt there was nobody I was in competitione with.

I didn't have that driver a fight fight for the female because I was the only female. I was the only one wearing a dress. So I always thought I got what I needed and what I wanted. It never occurred to me to ask what the men were making at the Universal. But it wasn't until I joined Cagney and Lacy and I became aware of really what a ideal with we're getting again.

I was raised only with brothers. I don't know how to explain that I was a newcomer in fighting for women's rights. But once I Hooke joined the Cagney and Lacy and I met Barney Rowson, swag You was the first feminist stid of the men I learned, and I had the great pleasure, in the great honor, to play Chris Cagney and to change lives for other women. Leave me, ladies. I did not know I was doing that whatever, shooting Cagney and Lacie, but you were apparently it was.

But do you know I didn't have the person, all the ego to assume I was changing women's lives. I was just doing a really cool character. Probably. I still think you don't mind mis saying. I still think Christine Cagney's were the great characters ever, female characters ever written for television, because she was so flawed, so flawed, and had so many layers, and flawed at a time again that women just weren't given that many layers.

No, No, I mean I I left it. I had. I had never been offended by any role I can given to play. I never felt any of the women I played were less than were treated less than we're boring, we're not interesting. But my mind wasn't like that.

I wasn't in the fighting mode when I first became an actress. I was just so grateful to be working. I'd do anything they'd give me. And I succeeded because I had a very powerful woman behind me, Manny James Talent at University Studios. The reason for my success is a woman, and the reason for the longevity of my career is because of the man in Bartie Wares is fact.

But who put me on that map was a woman who was the first female vice president of MCA, and she saw something in me. She believed in me. I was green. I didn't know anything except that I knew I wanted to be an actress, and she believed. Menique James's background was that she and her business partner Eleanor Kilcallen were the first females to have had talent agency in New York City and their first clients were Grace Kelly and Warren Beattie.

Hi wow, he's women. They were young girls and they started their own talent agency and they had these two really cool actors and Lou Wasserman, he headed MCA. He decided to buy a Universal so Many couldn't be an agel with MCA anymore, and Lou Wasserman bought out Many. James and her partner, Okay, it's the first women ever to have a dal agency, so Manique James and Eleanor Kiggowen became the first two female vice presidents of mc A huge, huge Then MCA bought Universal Studios and agents were no love real loud at MCA to function as agents. The government game locked all their their files because you couldn't own a studio and also use your clients, right, see what I'm saying.

So many James and elean Gowen became the first two female vice presidents of MCA Universal. Minique was head of Chalent on the West coast. Eleander was head of Chalent on the East coast. That's amazing. Yeah, and Eleanor also had Toronto and England as her markets to pick young actors.

But we need pick Bay And I know I'm talking too much for you. No, this is really fascinating because we don't talk about these women that were so groundbreaking enough. That's one of the reasons we started the show. And so I'm very curious about money, thank you, because you wouldn't want to sit here and talk to me because I'd have nothing to tell you if it had not been for her. And you were how old when you and you were the last contract player at Universal, very last one to leave the lot.

Yeah, I was. They signed me when I was twenty six, and they made me lie about my age every one of these Irish months. I was every great beauty, but I passed as a kid. And so she said, don't tell any old her. I said, okay.

So I worked for ten years and she groaned me, and I learned everything she taught me. I know it's in the book, but I'm repeating it because it's searing your show. When you're a contract player, you're taken into a screening, big screen the days when they had huge screens. You feel great to know what that means, you know, But they had big, huge and Norah's screens, and you'd be forced to sit there and watch your film. And she talked to some man.

It's like kind of a movie. She talked to some man in the projection room and say, please run mis Glasses film. God's covering misclass in front of me, you know, I mean in front of other people. She'd call me miss Gliss and he'd run my film and I'd have to look at it, and she told me what I was doing wrong. And she taught me how to do this thing called acting.

That is amazing that it's so hard for actors to watch themselves. I think often I happen to be inactive who never watches herself. I never watch myself. But you were forced too early on. I hadn't you because one of my obligations, and to learn from her.

You know, it's something you simparate. First empt. She see that thing you're doing with your mouth. I said yes. She says, stop doing it, I mean simply, And then she started teaching me to listen.

She said, you listening. She said, you're waiting to say your line. I said, yeah, I am waiting to say my life. She said, I know. And she said, Sharon, if you learned or really listen, listen to you or at your fellow partner, listen to what he's saying, your face will change because your face does that, and your face will change short listening, and they're going to cut to you instead of the person who's talking.

And the truth is that's what acting became fun for me. I started relaxing, really listening to what somebody was saying, and they'd either what they said may hurt me, or they made me laugh or anything. I was able to drop the fear as long as I was locked in seen that fellow actor, So sorry, no, it's fantastic. Do you know if there were any other actors before you that she kind of took under her wing a little bit and helped them make the transition that she helped you make to understanding how to basically act on film the way that she taught you. Well, I know Susan Clark.

I don't know if you remember Susan Clark. Yes, very big in those days, and she was just a peta actress dalin and much more training oxy than I are had and she must be tatah. But Minique believed in her. I saw her, and I don't know if many trained her, because I think she came in trained. You know, butt.

Isn't theater actoring different in a lot of ways than film acting in terms of you know, well, I always joke in theater actor Ea Chalk Louder, I guess there is? I mean Time Daily primary was their background is theater and her father's and she went into the family business. She went into acting because her parents were actings. And I think Time considers herself a theater actor. If I had to discern where I excel, I still call myself a film actor.

It's a different skill, or it's uh, or they'd like to be better on film than they did on the stage. You know, there's just a place where you land. And as long as somebody will listen to me or cry or laugh or I make them feel, whatever avenue that is, I'd love to do it. I think that's in your question. Now.

You very skilled, phil uh stage actor and that is her first love. I'm, however skilled. Maybe I'm more comfortable in term of the camera, one camera. I don't like those four camera sitcoms. Oh interesting, I like my relationship with the lens.

Oh, that's why it's not there. I do know that Monique James, in the article I read about her, is also credited with discovering Robert Redford, Sharon other Sharon, Oh, Sharon's you know that. That's what it was in an obituary that I read about her that they said credited with discovering you, Robert Redford and warm beating. They called her the star maker. Yes, she was very formidable.

She frightened me, but she was wonderful. I loved her dairy and so she was your boss, she was with she was my boss at Universal. She's the reason I had a chance to go to Universal. But then when my time was up at universally they were closing the contract system and I was the last going to lead, and they of course asked her to stay on at Universal and knew some other executive job, and she said she wore as neat and could become my manager, and so she left Universal MCA, she left to manage me. That's that's a pretty big investment.

That's a pretty big honor. And I was the early guy. Wow, I bet you. You both were very formidable walking into a room. Oh.

I never felt I was spawler a little bit. She was scary. It was I never thought of myself as formerle I like someone to see me me that maybe that way in a character or something, but I don't think socially amember former bun. Shot. You never know it by now much.

I talkie, but I am shot. So your last show under the contract was House Calls. It was thank you. It was so nice to be very indebt. Interviewers actually do their whole work.

Do you know that we have such a good time anyway? Thank you. Yes, I left after House Calls. The studio system ended after i'd been there ten years. All the actors left and they helped me back and he said, why are you doing this?

Let her go? You know she could make some money this lord, do Joe make anyot studio? And they said, because we want her to do house calls to replace Lynn Redgrave? Can you imagine? And money said, well, then make her a contract, make her a series deal instead of an exclusive contract.

Theory you should make a little dough So they said, oh, so in I stayed at Universe, but I stepped into house calls with Wayne Rodgers and you're based in Red Grade. If you can match, I. Yes, you talk about that in your book and it's some great stories that section of the book, with great stories throughout the book. Yes, really great stories. But in any event, Yeah, the contract system has always been very interesting and intriguing and on some level, I I'm not sure if they had the option, if the studios wouldn't want to have it back because of the financial constraints that it provides to them.

But I think it's expensive for studios because we got paid every week whether we worked or not. Now Grant I was paid one hundred and eighty six dollars meet I would have paid them. I would have people would say to me, don't sign that contract to Universal. Joe never be heard from mcinn I said, nobody said, and it did the right thing. Being a contract player had its drawbacks.

The producers on the lot resented hiring contract players. They had some sweet blonde off the lot that they wanted to come in and play the role. But they were so we say, encouraged as to read the contract players. You know that's a many James blond. They were encouraged to see us.

They did not have to hire us. The only thing we got is we got the sides, meaning that scene, the night before, so we could rehearse it the night before instead of walking in and doing what used to be called a cold reading. Were handed the script and you were given like ten or fifteen minutes to look at it, and then you go in and you read for it. Well as a contract player, she'd get it to my house. Oh, all of the contry players got the scenes sent to their house the night before so you could prep.

But that was that was solely the only advantage, except you got to hang out of the Westmore Makeup building and Edith Head had her own design studio there so you surrounded with the best, the best in business. It doesn't mean you got to hang with them, but you were surrounded by them. You could see them across the commissary. Yes, yes, at Edith's Head once dressed me. Ooh, I was just gonna ask you that.

Tell us about that. Yes, that's Melissa jumping in. She can't help herself. It's only because I'm beneath chains. I'm Every contract player on the lot got to be in Airport seventy five.

Oh wow. And the reason we got to be an airport said there were stewards or stewardists, and they just paid if we worked. We got to pay me two hundred and six dollars a week, but we were never allowed to speak. If we spoke, then they had to, you know, give us more. But every contract player was made a steward or stewardess in Airport seventy five.

Give in our little fitt I didn't care. I started a Monopoly game on the set because I'd never done a feature before. It takes five hours to light a see you know television it's fast, but in features it's huge. So I started this Monopoly game going and Edith Head did the stewardess's outkits and a parody. Monique has gone to Edith and said, Edith, I've got someone.

It's one of the stewards. It's just just something to a little different. So we all showed up in front of Edith head with like camel colored a line skirts, camel colored heels, shoes, burgundy turtle neck sweaters, and a scarf around our neck. Very stewardess right, And she looked at all this and she said Sharon Glass said yes, Mistead. She said, come with me.

She took me back to the dressing room and she said, take off that skirt, okay. I took it off, and she had trousers the exact same color, same gabardine, same everything. She said, put these trousers on. Okay, she said, he right, I like it. She said, take that thing off around your neck.

I said okay. She had put your hair back in the pony chair. Then nade your neck. Get the hair off with things. I said, okay, And she says, let me wrap this onund back.

So I ended up being in trousers, no blonde hair hanging down, just pulled back with that scarf, no sunny scarf around my neck. I was very tattered, which is really was my style. But she saw it. You know. All she did was do that's swisheroo and I'm it was the only stewardess who looked like that.

That's amazing. I love Monique for doing that. I love her, you know, I know. And then she asked them if I could have a close up with Karen Black, who was the Fema Elite show, and so I had a close up. They're two shot with her, so embarrassing anyway, but I just stood there looking stupid.

And then I got a job. While I was on that movie, Minique had had me reading for a miniseries and I got it. When I got the mini series after four readings, and I got a minises called them It's Centennial. I was going to ask if it was centennial Antennial, right, yes, a period past. Yeah, because we also spoke with Stephanie's embalist and she was in Centennial.

Oh no, it wasn't Centennial, but of course she wasn't sentential. No, it was the immigran and I was the female lead, so that must have been one of your breakout roles. Then it was? It was and Stephen Mack to play the immigrant. Uh it ended up being my lover on Cagney Bendy mid new years later.

I want to take a break real quick. We'll come right back. Hello, welcome back. I love how many people have worked on Cagney and Lacey. Like almost everybody that we talked to, UH or we're looking at to talk to have done something on Cagney and Lacey because it ran for so long and in particular had a lot of ladies up in the uh writing and directing.

So I will shout out Barney for that. Yeah. See we had a female director. We had Karen. You're gonna be talking to Karen right, Yes, yeah, I'll tell you the numbers.

Do you want to know the numbers on Cagney and Lacy because we like to do the numbers on the shows we cover and how many women and we're sort of behind the camera. Yes, And Cagney and Lacy is, by the way off the charts. We've only looked at really closely at three shows so far, but out of forty two directors listed on IMDb, thirteen were female directors. That's thirty one percent. It's way higher than anybody else in the eighties as far as I as we know so far like significant.

So shout out to Barney and the whole team for that. He did it as I say, I wasn't. I gained all the knowledge and the experience and all the things I didn't know about feminism because of that show. I was exposed to that that fight which women had to do. I was so protected at Universal.

I never start with another woman. I'd learned nothing about the female struggle in our industry and in the world until I did. Okay, lay and so what was there a moment? Was there a moment, whether you were doing publicity or someone came up to you or doing the show that you went is something de torch to this story? No about me politically publicity?

No, Okay, I'm gonna give you a story fantastic. My publicist on Kenyon Lacey was a one for waning Pat Kingsley. And Pat said Sharon that we're going to be doing public service announcements for you to encourage women to register to vote. I said, great, I said, I should really get practistered. I swear to God New Year's Time has been out there.

You know, I'm a ration. Barney sits the bat. I think Sharon Barney serious. I think Sharon is interested in getting more politically involved. That means she's considering getting a registered I'm so ashamed of Jody's stories.

Were I havok of a long way? It was not handed to women. I was raised by a mom who worked, and you know, she was a single mom of two daughters. She was a scientist. She worked for CDC in Atlanta, and that was like, she never talked about it.

She wouldn't have called herself a feminist. But my sister and I both grew up going like knowing about it, and then from my sister, who was older than me that she trained me up pretty quick too, because she was off to college before me. And it was the time of Gloria Steinem and it was out there. But I think unless you had a world in which you're watching your mom not be able to buy a house even though she has a great job because the bank wouldn't loan her money, I was like, that doesn't seem right. You're like, you're just like hmmmm.

But I think unless you had an excuse or reason, or were growing up in that and handed that, a lot of women weren't handed that. Nope, weren't handed that they had, that they were up against a wall. They just didn't know it. Yeah, I think I had a credit card when lost. Women didn't have a credit card because they your husband could have a credit card.

Yeah, but I had a credit card, I think long before most women did. I don't know how I got them, because I didn't get married till I was fifty. There were just all kinds of things I took for granted. I didn't know how bad it was until I was lucky enough to get Cady and Racy. I'm so blessed and I didn't even know.

I'll tell you this story of me being a booked but tied and I were invited to march on Washington during the Young Bush. And there we were the front row carrying the batter with thousands of pounds ands of women behind us, and WILLOPI Goldberg was there and Glory Stein. We were in the front room carrying this thing and maybe hundreds of thousands of women and maybe five men. One of them was barring rows in his way, and we were taking on this stage. It's the stage where far far away is the Washington monitors.

Okay, that's where we were. I didn't have any idea what we were doing or the impact that Cage and they had had is really where I'm trying to say to you. And Gloria came to me and said, go out there. I said, go out there. I look at time, don't you?

She said, go out their share. I said, what do I say? You know my dialogue had not been written for me. I'll say. She said, just go out there, time, go there.

So I remember I walked out to this. Some time followed me. They were crazy. They started screaming and clapping and tens of thousands of them and I didn't know why. And it was because of what we had done.

And I didn't know. I didn't know the impact we were having. I got it. Then I got it. Then we didn't have MIC, so I just WAITD so thank you.

You know, we were off stage and everything. But I hope you understand the moment I'm describing to you. I do. You're making me cry, and you know it's it's a it's everybody's used to having access to everything now and then it was not. I didn't know.

Yeah, you were working at me about us, Yeah you were working how many hours a week? And and you know I many weeks a year trying to making this television show and there was no social media, there wasn't Internet. It's totally understandable. How could I say to them thank you? I didn't, Mike, but Glory, you know, she knew exactly what she was doing and I didn't.

I was surprised to recognized this and had walked out on this stage with I mean people were miles back at the Washington Monument, you know, like like like it was the thing, the president inauguration. I mean it was anyway. That was the way I learned that we had impact. I was given the gift of playing that part, and the whole time I was doing it, I never knew that I was giving a gift. I was just lucky.

I knew I was giving the gift of it's okay to see you're an alcoholic, it's okay. I knew that was a rough one and no one had ever done that for no female or had perform in character and then me in real life. But then, I don't mean how I got on this except well we were, Yeah, we were talking about was there a moment and I think that was the moment where you went, oh, I'm I'm doing more than just playing a character on a TV show. Did you end up carrying that back to the show with you, Like, did you feel like, oh boy, we better be careful now. Like, I don't know if you felt that responsibility in the when you were doing it, or were you able to set that aside.

I always felt the responsibilities and accurate, you didn't the finest shot I could. I didn't. I wasn't. I never carried the responsibility. I have to represent whomen properly.

I guessed in my performance. I did. She was a difficult character. She you know, I mean Mary Beth Lacey and her rolled down her sleeves and straighten her bow and everything, and she'd go see the lieutenant and I'm sorry whatever, Jack, you always had this she had. And Race used to be the first female police commissioner and he didn't follow the rules and that.

No, I never knew that I was giving women permission to do the same thing. Yeah, go get a job where there are no women. That's what you want, because there were no women in the elice business when Type Night were in it. No partners ever, never female partners. Yeah, and no female work friendship on television, No like that.

Was that, and even now it's rare. We were talking about the show, like, you know, obviously Rizzo and Iles and and and shows that are kind of clearly following in the footsteps. There's also friendship show, Sex and City and things like that now. But at the same time, it was so that I do remember, you know, watching it, and just the normalcy of two women having a conversation about both work and their personal feelings about that work. Right, Kenny and Theycy were not friends.

They were not friends. They could have been more socially different. Kenny got children, you know, her husband, their children. Keny was sleeping around. It can't be Kegney was ambitious.

Mary Beth wasn't ambitious. She wanted to put it in her twenty and get the retirement fund, helper family. That's who she was. She was a great cope. Met Lacy was but they were never friends.

But their lives depended on each other. Their lives depended on each other. They were partners, but they were never friends. The socialize with each other. She'd be so bored going over there and pretending she was playing with the children.

She did it sometimes, Kay, but Barney used to say in a fairer world. Those two women could have worked at the post office. Yeah, it didn't matter because they were never They weren't pals. He said. The police situation was better because their lives were at stake.

It was more interesting, more dramatic. Immediately, they were pals now ty day and Night today are best friends. We were when we were shooting the show. Not because we didn't love each other and more so respect each other, but we didn't have time to be pals. There was no time.

It was a lot of long hours and you know, horse around after work. She had children she was trying to raise, and she'd be getting home at midnight, you know. But we we loved we supported each other. Yeah, you were partners. Were caddy stuff.

The a lot of the press trying to say you're so caddy. You know, they don't get along. And we're much better friends today. Yes, she said that you were competitive with her. I am for what for coming out when I said you were coming on the show, She says, she's so competitive.

Oh well, I'm equally appy to be invited you. Yes, we're very happy to have you, and I love that. Again, Sharon and I have been friends for a long time. Melissa and I have been friends for a long time, and that ability to be able to sort of work with your friends and create with your friends is pretty special. But one of the things, you know, I think I got subliminally more than with direct knowledge at the time and watching Cagney and Lazy And is the idea that these were two professional women.

They were two very different people, but it showed that you could be You didn't have to be a certain way to do this job. You didn't have to be a certain type of woman to be a police officer, to be a feminist. It just had to do with are you competent and you get the job done. And it's something I to this day really appreciate about the show. You, Jared, I don't remember our ever discussing feminism on the show.

Yeah, it was not part of our what we talked about. I guess we were showing ay, it can be done, it can happen, come on, Yeah, And we never talked about I don't ever remember even talking about the guys are getting better than we are, and we didn't pound that stick. We just did it. There may have been some areas where it's sort of for lack of a better word, indirectly infiltrated into the storytelling. I'm thinking in particular about the episode where there was another cop who was physically abusing his wife and the two of you were like, hm, did we bring this up?

Because it was more but it was more about we're all cops and do we how do we deal with that? Because that's sensitive as opposed to I think anything else initially, but the goal for the two of you was always find the person who committed the crime and see to it that the justice system punishes them. That's what your goal was. And we can do it and to depend on these guys, yes, exactly, Yeah, and we can do it. Yeah.

And it was a gane the job. I'm sure Time brought that up because that's the only place we could as two women talk alone because we were minority. Yeah, and I love it was so interesting how they brought you on the show and if we can talk about you came on. You were the third Cagney. I don't know if you felt as pressure or what you felt.

Well, I was asked first, so that sort of gave me a little bit of an ego bat and I of course turned it down. And Barney is Barney said, actors are not always the best judges of material, and so it went to The Ready Sweet and then it went to a series at the time. Loretta did it, and Loretta had to go back to Mash. So Barney approached me the end and I couldn't do it because I was going to do House Calls. So Loretta came in and did it.

Meg Foster came in and did it for the show. Yeah, Meg Foster, Yes, Fostered wonderful, wonderful actress came in and did it. And the network didn't care for the Perry thought there wasn't enough contrast, so made. Sadly it was replaced as Time Loved Made. So you can imagine here I come the third Cagney and signed, and Barney invites me again, and do you know this story writ inst By going to New York to find out a house He did tell that story.

He told the story that he knew and I felt like it was such a producer moment, like like it was such a I know, I have a piece of information that I get to I was a house calls, right, So he flies to New York, yes, to find out if house Calls is on the schedule for the next year and finds out it isn't, so he calls my manager. She says, I'm sorry, Barney, Dear, I have child. Jane Sharon is in house call and he said that means he's a house called he's got her expired. That is such a that is such a producer moment. I have a piece of information and I'm going to use it to get what i want.

So anyway, it did all work out. Finally jan came right to this house. I invited her because we had billing we had to talk about, and that's a story. But we sat right INSS sousince. She brought champagne and we agreed.

We really liked each other like for another. We worked out the building and the rest is history. I was very fortunate and very blessed to work with her, and I do love that the episode that you know, the first episode of the second season where it's the two of you, it's a big conflict, like you start right off and in conflict a little bits as Mary Beth and Christine because you're I think it's the one where there's been a shooting and whether which of you saw a gun or but if you're going to back up another cop, and it was just so interesting that it was such a great way, but it felt like the deep end, felt like you guys jumped into the deep end of those characters and that show. Right, that scene is used quite often to talk about the series.

Were Mariabeth and Night's fight. Since I saw what I saw on you jumping you started and yeah, I remember now I wanted her to back me up. Yeah, And it's such again, it's so amazing. First as just your like sort of your first episode. It wasn't like, oh, we'll just be solving a crime together.

It was it was very character driven. It was very much about the two of your relationship, and it was also allowing women to be mad at each other in a very real way, allowing women to be mad and angry and express that anger and then also find ground, like, you know, kind of rebuild the relationship within that show. Right, It doesn't seem like it should be groundbreaking, but I could not point you to another show of that time that truly did that. In comedies, there'd be a lot of you know, like Golden Girls, a lot of conflict and then resolution, but really rilliant they did it. Yeah, But in terms of drama.

Did did Barney ever talked to you about how Cagney sort of came to be born in character? No, you can I challenge something. Oh well, you write a little bit in your book when you realize who Cagney was, But tell the story. I don't know. We were in our boss's office with all the men, with all the male cops, also all our people and are increasing and I can't remember what why we were in there.

But Mary bes I said, always world ever season, So it's very proper. And she's a lieutenant. If you don't know the dishes in rape and row it. She was talking about Gone with the Wind, Yes, and I think you guys are working on a rape case or something in the right And he saying, but in Gone with the Wind, you know he carries her up. Well, he did raper, he did rapers.

But it was making me very sexy, you know. Now she wakes that ex flung with a smile on her face. Anyway, Mary Beth Lacey's line is, we'll attend in a f you to know the difference. Great romance, you better problem. She walks out, and that's very end of light, Mary Beth.

So as it's written everything's quiet. Oh, as it's written, one of the guys probably is Becky. Then what is it with her time of the month or something? And I stopped the scene and the director says, what's wrong? I said, I need a line.

I need a line. Guys, I mean, he doesn't get to say that it's a partner. So when you were allowed to change the line, So they call Barney Rose and swank down and said Barney always looked at his watch, always said what seems to be the problem? Always what seems to be the problem. I said, I need a lie.

I need a line. Here is Becky just said about Mary Vance? What is it her time of the month or something? So I need to get a better line to get back at it. He said, no, you get ain't nine at all.

Anybody said you're Cagney, said Cagney. He said, come over, tase me. Signed. He said, this is a lesson for you learning the character. You are playing test a kidding about to your partner.

She's one of the boys. She plays poker with him at night. She wants to be one of the boys. And she's gonna swallow it. She's gonna left them say that about her quarter and not her arrow.

And I remember I said, oh, I get it. She's a coups, didn't she. That's another word for I said, she's a coups, didn't she? And Gray smiled. At least I understood, and he said that she got it.

So she is. She loves her partner. She wants to be one of the boys because she wants to be lieutenant. Yeah, so she was worried to betray her own sex to stay in the Booker game. I mean, I've kept my mouth.

I kept my mouth shut in the eighties as a young person in the work environment. Did you I don't know if I did. I'm sure I did. I didn't. I didn't have I wasn't part of that was very gratefully nassa.

I was never part of the knee too. I never had that problem now that men didn't find me a tracked or they didn't hit on me because I hadn't many James right there in her office and I'd have told or they didn't have anything I needed. There was nothing they had I'm wanting to and I think they knew that. So I never had that unfortunate meant time in my career where I got hit on and my my career threatened right and play right my book, perhaps I just wasn't very No, No, I think you were being protected by money now yep, yeah, no one dare Yeah. In your book also you would, if I'm remembering correctly, you mentioned that when you were cast as Cagney, that that you and Tyne spent some time together working on your dynamic between the two of you working on you know, separate from from when you're on stage, working some things out that way.

I just wondered if you might expand on that a little bit. We did the day before we read together with the with the cast, very very first time I had ever set in to play this role. And there was a reader in front of the cinematographer, in front of somebody keep crew in of course, all the cast and executives from Orian that means God, because this is the last chance right time calls me up. She said, what do you say we run this script alone together before they ever see us do it? Said great, do you mind?

She said no. So she comes over with a bottle of champagne again and we run together. Turned out five times we did it together. I'm so grateful to her. You're the new person.

You don't hate it, you don't bother anybody. So we went and we did set at Ciche with all these people, you know, and we did it. And Darney stood up and said, and ladies and gentlemen, that's how it's gone nice mixed you cry is Time came up with just the very the necessity of course I'm doing it together and not arriving green. You know, she'd had the advantage of playing this character for quite a while, but she knew I had not Yeah and yeah, and what you might be referring to, also, Sharon, is are working together every night shoot. We met in my trailer because I had the bar open, so we met in my trainer and read.

The next days were over over over again until we thought each other's rhythms. That's fantastic, and that pays off in the show. It's so there really is such a camaraderie that comes across in the show. It really does feel like you guys are working partners because you were, we were. And I will always say, certainly I have my own skill.

I certainly I brought something to that character if they didn't have before. But time deity is the reason Time is such a generous actor such a if they wanted to you didn't care, and she just pot you know, and we were kind of put who together. Yeah, I can't imagine. I think we are already planning to basically have you back on the show together, because that's Michael. I have cards with her.

I had a birthday poker game last night. Oh no, your birthday, Happy birthday. No, I belink my birthday is the last day I made. But I like to play with my some friends and my stepdaughters in times always included. So our game last night, Oh that's great.

I lost? You lost, all right, it's so did tying? Okay, okay, all right, so there you go. See that's okay. I'm curious if Christine Cagney would have called herself a feminist in those very early days.

Yes, I think she would add, but I don't think she would have understood the real meaning of a feminist. I think she was a feminist for herself. She wasn't gonna let anybody say because she's a girl, she can at But was she a feminist to fight for other women? No? I think at that tongue cag Will fought for herself.

I think she wasn't Lowhart. I think she I till in the book a story, but I'm gonna tell it to you too. That I went to Time first, to Blibin's character totally was getting who she was who I thought she was. And I said to Time, I have something to ask from you. She said, well missed it, sure, and really said, rows running indoors, you know what the guns drawn?

I said, can I run in before you? She said, you know why I want to say no that this question, So of course I do. I'm asking it, I said, Tyne, I think Mary Beck has a lot of these. She has a husband, she has children. This one doesn't give a shit about anybody.

She wants to be the hot shot, so she is and sometimes two fould and I don't think she's cautious. She wants to win and try and risking to me. And she said, I get it if that's what you need. It said, I don't mean every time, but most of the time our routine. She said, okay, well guess it won all the m he's You know that that show lives or dies on that relationship, and that's why it lives so long and so long in our hearts.

I you know I have I'm not wearing today, but I have a Cagneum Lacey shirt because I like I have shirts of all the shows. And I was in the grocery store the other day and wearing it, and three different people came up to me and they're just like, I love that show, Oh, Cagney and Lacy. It has so much resonance that show. People do remember it. I want to take a break real quick.

We'll come right back, and we won't do all our questions because I'm not sure we'll be able to get through them all, but we'll want to do it embarrass myself like Bartie did do four hours. I mean, Barney was very sweet, he was very kidding. He loves it. It was fascinating. It was fascinating and interesting and fun.

We'll come right back. Hello, welcome back. Carol King did the theme song for the Trials of Rosie O'Neil, and then you had her on the show in a great episode. So she union episode. We saw her manager at the time did not want her to sing on TV, so we got wonderful Jay Manchester man, there you go, thank you, okay, but I got to go the day that there was Carol King and Melissa Manchester together Wow, singing and she's singing the song.

Carol's watching of course because it's her song, and Melissa is singing it beautifully and I'm just watching. And then they took a picture of the three of us together, which was cool to me. Yes, Carol wrote the song. Barney approached her and asked her she break the main main theme to the Trials of Rosinio, and she said she'd love to, and then he asked her she'd sing it, and she told me that her manager did not want her singing anything for a TV series. I think she felt very apologetic about it.

So we got Melissa Manchester. But on the show, Carol told Barney that she's always wanted to. So Carol did come and perform. It's a character on our show and was a reunion of everybody in my college or high school, high school, high school, high school, right, and Carol was one of you know, our besties, our bestest friends. And Telling Arrives also is one of our high school alumni.

Uh and she's a Tony witter from Broadway and Chinna just won her Tony on Broadway. So she played it to the hillt and he's very diva in that exactly. It makes everybody hate her. And but we have a wonderful scene together at the end where the characters settled in each other. But to sit there and sing with Carol King while she's hanging on the piano her song and she's singing it worse than you know, the graduates are singing it with her.

You know, sometimes she just take things for granted when you're happening. I know. It was a weary key highlighted my life. It was beautiful. That episode was really great, and it was a beautiful scene.

And it took me forever to recognize Gretchen Corbett. I never Gretchen was a contract player with me. Oh why she? Okay? All right, So I have questions.

A lot of these questions are from my husband because he's a huge Rockford Files fan and thus a huge Gretchen Corport fan, and he's a television writering producer. And I literally took a picture of the reunion scene and sent it to him. Oh, Caro standing there, and I said, okay, you have to pick out who all these people are, and he could. He recognized everybody but Gretchen Corbett. And I said when I said it was Green Corbett.

He was like, I don't believe that. My trick together. And she did like a recurring role on Rockford Yes, right, yes, yes, and you were on Rockford. You did two episodes of Rockford Files. Yeah, and one was playing a stewardess.

That was great. It was called the Fourth Man. I don't remember. That was my first one was where I think I was playing with stewardess. And I'm excited about it because it was written by Juanita Bartlett.

Is Anita? Can you please tell us about Juanita Bartlett? Now, she moved to carl She passed away and a number of years ago, but moved to Carmel. I know that. And she sort of retired there.

Yes, but she didn't she write with that was that wonderful writer. She wrote on the Rockford Files for many years. And she was a producer and writer on Scarecromis is King one of the other shows that we cover from the eighties. Stephen Cannell, Yes, that's seen Stephen Cannell, David Chase, Yes, Stephen Bosco, Stephen Cannell for all of them. Infect Stephen Cannel used to call me his good luck charm.

He put me in all his pilots. Oh, it's all part one. I did a pilot for him where I was like one of the leads, and then he put me in that Bob Bob Black Sheep gave me one scene in his pilot and it's sold. Not because of me, but he just thought, you're gonna be my good luxury Mama is going to put you do a little something in my pilots. That was the Black Sheep Squadron.

Yes, I used to you really know your stuff. Oh, we grew up on television, watch a lot of TV. I remember that act. I don't remember his name, but he used to do Robert Conrad. Robert used to do this battery commercial commercials.

It off my should Yeah. Yeah, Oh, all those guys, but they were all around Weneda Bartlett's. Yeah, we were all a Universal. Even Stephen Botchko eventually left Universal and went on to you know Greatness. But Stephen Kendell we sort of knew each other socially.

We were both born in la He was a native Angelina, just like I was from Pasadena and I was from Hancock Park. And he died way too young. Yeah. Anyway, his daughter makesed television. I believe she's a director, some kind of television creator, right, yeah, right, I believe I worked with her.

I think Barney hired her. Maybe it wasn't Barney, maybe it was unlike there was one of my other series after that and she came and directed us. Oh that's great. Yeah, I do love it does feel like you guys are always inviting the family back. I believe Meg Foster does a guest on Trials of Rosie O'Neil.

Yes, it had her often play my opposing a journey because he felt so badly at the networks ready forcing him to do that, and he always loved her, you know. So Yeah, she came in and did some wonderful journ express on the trust rooms. Okay, I have a couple of questions, just like about the opening sequence for Cagney and Lacy, in particular the shot walking down the street sidewalk in New York V two together. That's so sort of iconic from the for the show and jest Man, and so you guys went to New York to shoot that, right, Once a year we would go to New York to shoot exteriors and they were just cut in two episodes. I mean shoot them sneaking, you know, doing dialogue, and I said, wait a minute, what happened before this scene?

Because you know, an actor needs an and to see an event, so you know why you're crossing the street. So the writers would give us our scenes and then tell us just what happened just before that scene. So we and we used to love going there. Uh we always went there in I think August hot so hot. We wore the like hot, you know, cool cool clothes.

We're walking down the street. Well then you come to later on in the year and you do that scene the preceding it, and you have to get back in those clothes. We've been eating the craft surface all in year. We couldn't get back into the clothes we'd established every year we had this boblem so fun started putting us even the sheet of August and you're they put us in coats, in half and stuff. We t for us to dilicate that scene or walking.

You know, we could take off that, we could have bigger clothes. That's so funny. Do you remember doing that walking down that that shot that's clearly a long lens. You're walking with real people. I assume yes, I did something was not in the script.

We were not I was told to do, but it just seemed great. We did many walking down the streets. I decided, well, carrid me likes clothes, so even though we're kind of managed closed, but she liked to style, you know, And so I said, I'm the golobole con see it's in the window. So I just stopped in time. When where'd she go?

And without our error planningness, and she goes goes back and guess me pulsy by the arm and then staying it is one of the parts of the main type. That great. I know, I know exactly what your shot you're talking about. That's so great. And then I, of course I have a question about the flasher.

What was I saying, yes, I don't know what I'd like is really you just get some a lip reader, I'm serious, and figure out what you right because you don't remember what you were saying, Well say, because I've never been able to answer the question. But the attitude I can tell was really, they are what we hope to do with that sort of That was my intention, And I knew we weren't miked, so it didn't matter right, But what I mean again, that opening sequence very very lovely, and that flasher shot in particular has stayed with me from childhood because of your look, right, because of your look. Thank you, Oh my goodness, thank you. And thinking about it, it's actually a little surprising that CBS let you put that, let them put that in, because it seems a little for lack of a better riskue for a network television show to put that kind of shot in.

Kudos to them, they were, they were a little more leanent with us. At one read through, Marty cob had her could I see anything in order? Yeah? It didn't cut her out. So when read through, and this is in the script, Marty Cove has a line like saying that she's a and I raised my hand.

I said, excuse me, I mean you know she's like party. Can we see on television? He said no, But I'm going to trade it in for another word I do want to use. That's why you put it in the script seems to bow again. I mean, just a classic producer move, right, like I'm going to push it too far and then I'll give you some ground.

Yeah, yeah, all right, I won't say it, yiss. I'm so I do also want to I have questions about Queer's Folk and how you got involved with that, and again, it feels like a show that may have brought you to another level of awareness and activism. According to your book, Yarry Maxso Queeri's Folk. I was in Chicago doing a play and my television career was slow slowing down. I'd gotten very, very very heavy.

I'd hit like two hundred pounds, and my marriage was fling apart because of that. There is everything that was falling apart. And I was doing this play then it had been written for me, so I thought, one, that's so busy, I'll go and do a display. Well, while I was there, I got an offer to do lie it in winter back East in summer for summer playhouse THEE. So I hired the top drama coach in Chicago to train me, and the man who was my trainer there was also an agent and he called me one day and he said, do you know about Queers Felt?

And I said no. He said, well, it's a British series and it's not been shown here and there's a black market copy show. Tell me, said has about the rights to do the American version? And there's a black market copy going round. Read it.

He said, be out, and there's a part that's perfect for you. Let me have a car send here. Stay at where you are and I said okay. So I stayed in my little apartment and the driver comes kitchen the stript. So I'm got so busy, I said, down.

And I read it well. I read that rule of Debbie Nevatni and I knew. I knew this was my next show. If they take me. I knew I was perfect for her.

And I'd never been aggressive on around. Behalf sure. So I pick up the phone and I call Showtime the network because Barney's ex assistant is now the assistant to the president of Showta. So, I said, Carol, Sharon, I just read Queer's soap, which you guys are making. I said, I want the part of the mother, you know what, the part of the mother.

There's another mother that is very young, and I said, I do Anyway, I just figured out that I was talking about Debbie the body. I said, I do want she should you don't want to be in the shows in Canada, I said, perfect, because Barney and I were going through the divorce, you know, and she said, there's no money. I said, I care. I wanted out, went out of the country. I want to my own series again.

I just wanted the things I loved, you know. So she said, well, let me run it by Jerry. They're doing casting today at casting meetings, talking about anyway, Jerry Offseay gets on the phone. He said, Sharon, Jerry Off say I liked the idea. I said, oh, Jerry, I'm so glad.

He said, yeah. He says, think you'll bring a little class to the project. I said, Jerry, class is not what I had. And I don't know if you know the role of Debbie Novadi, she was not a classic woman. And so he flew me out to meet the two producers.

He said, sorry, just as far as I'm concerned, you have the job, but I don't want to warn rough shot over my producers. Would you mind meeting them. We'll pay to fly you out. I said, not at all. So I flew out and I met them and it was the most fun meeting.

We lacked the whole time, and they gave me the role in the room and retort. I mean, I'm so happy because I knew, I knew I could bring something to it, and I knew I was right for her. I my DeBie Nevodnimus, got a crude and crude looking with the red hair and a thing with the red wig. I mean, it's all kneeling that there are at ear rings, and and I plead her with my mother's heart. My mother is the most was the most refined woman.

Absolutely, if you ever think of the word lady, my mother, my mother. I never raised your books, never said to swear. We'd once she said to a m she spelled I swear word. And I said, but I know my mother is hard and I totally clay were as hard. I allowed myself.

I made up that look because I didn't want to beat the blonde, you know, the two hundred pound blonde. What a cagey and they see gone, I mean Christine, Jenny gone bad. So so when now was my chance to be somebody else and look different than active rented? So that's a long answer to tell us about where's up. It's a great answer.

But I also learned so much. And I one of these people who, like my best friends, are gay, but it's a queer folk. I didn't know the real struggles, the hardship the heartache, all the stuff that you didn't hear about until that show. And I learned. I learned, and then boys would walk down the street and come over and see me I have I'll good mate, start crying.

It just was wonderful. I was able to have impact. Again, do you know a different kind of impact, But I was able to have impact on some people. You truly did. Our marketing person who is not here today is Sullivan and he is a young gay black man who watched your show.

And I watched that show and was like, she was the mom that we all wanted. Yea was the mom we didn't have it. She in such a mouth of her and she slap her sun aggressive face, but she loved and accepted him and everybody around him. George, Oh yeah, anyone was good, hurt, and she was there. I love the show too.

I mean this, This straight black woman absolutely loved the show. Loved Debbie, loved how loving she was not just to her son, but all of his friends and the whole community. And you were so wonderful, and it was it was really great. Loved it. I lucked out.

I just lucked out, Thank you so much, because it was and sometimes it pays to raise your hand and say I want I'd like that heart. Yeah, I know you ever done that in my life? And there it was, and it was a changed my life, brought me back. I mean, what a great yeah you've made. This is the third time Sharon made me cry the respont.

Sorry, but for all the best reasons, exactly, Thank you so much. It was that I've stayed closest to that cast than even Cagney and lacy Tyny and I are inseparable, but the rest of the cast, we worked so many hours. We didn't get a chance to know them or play with them here. We didn't. We didn't get a chance to hang out.

And then Burn, notice that you'd play a completely different and yet adoring mom again. And you know, I want to say something. I never wanted to play the mother snore, but these two particular mothers were fun. I refer to the mother in Burn Nervous as the mother from Hell. I love her.

And Jeffrey Dovan and I got along so well, and it was just an end worked out and we finally stopped the divorce proceedings party way after us. And then this bird Nurse was in Miami, which is where I lived, and I didn't tell them I lived there because I have a home in LA because I wanted to during the pie that I wanted to hang out with the cast in the hotel. You know, I wanted to get PRETDM. It's sold. Like months later, my manager called me.

He said, burndot or sold. I said, it's burd nurse. It was a very odd title, you know. So I didn't it just didn't. I didn't remember it.

I did one day's work, two days work. That was it. And then I went home. And then he cast me a month later burn notice sold whoa. I have to tell him I lived in Miami because they don't want to deliver the scripts and stuff to go.

So I confessed. You confessed, and you didn't get all weights. I said, you didn't get per diem for the entire series before missed the plot. You know, I just wanted to hang out with the actors in the hotel. None of this dead housing.

Oh I do. Anyway, it was It's been the one but and I've stayed trains with that at those actors, and so I'd like, so you and Barney were at the brink of divorce for a while. None here's your yeah, and then we just lived long enough to say, oh, well no, it was very very rough times. What is it? Genie russ Linnings said we had her own first scarecrim as a King and and she said, oh my, she's been had a writing partner her entire career, Brad Buckner.

And she's like, oh that that that's my best relationship. My marriage is hard. Oh it is, oh yeah, hardest, hardest. Well obviously too. It's much easier for me to play it at the character than play myself, so you're when when I'm playing in the series, great, they can't hurt me.

But he could and did, and I'm sure I did my share. So now we've been married thirty one years. Who who thunk? Never? Fuck it?

And you didn't think you'd ever be married? Never? I never wanted to be married never ever. I'd never seen a good marriage. Still very few.

I don't know if it's an if it's a natural state, but I'm single for so many years. I didn't get married. Charms just to about to turn fifty, and I liked me, you know, I got him on fine with me, but I got married and almost and then they weren't a metopause. Well, poor thing, poor Barney, he didn't know it in none of us do really? You lay a lot of stuff bare in your book.

I see I do, but I couldn't do it any other way. Do you know where was it ever tried to go for sensationalism? I just told the truth. Yeah, I keep up with the title before I ever better word on the page, apparently the ways And why is it titled that? Well, I came up with that expression.

I was in Hazelton, and so a lot of the books about my alcohol drug abusse, I know, get in line. But it was the eighties. I mean it's recently been written, but I do, right, I write about all the complaints about my life that when I was in Hazelton there was a lot of scandal and Barnie and I, Barniey was going to a divorce. The press was terrible to it because we were very hot at that time and this was our secret and we'd fallen in love with each other. I mean, it was wrong and couldn't help it and kept a secret from time per year, which is inexcusable because Tyme and Barney and I were a triangle.

Nobody could you know break us up, and this was something she didn't know about eventually, eh Older. But it was just a horrible, horrible time. Anyway, I ended up in Nazeled, which is the harbor of the media apps, and it was all over the press. It was awful. And Cagney certainly was the first alcoholic in a series on television, and it turns out so is Sharon.

So it was a lot of his life imitating our. But she alerted when she did those amazing scenes, and I was not, by the way, I cannot drink and before I'm not that good timing is everything for me. So somebody approached me when I got out of It's a four week program. It was there seven weeks. Hi, seven weeks.

They could yeah, you're going back to one, back to one, honestly, God. And I was very well known in those days. So they used to hide me. They'd hide me like every Sunday was parents stayed to come and see whoever they loved. It was in Hazel.

They hide me in the infirmary because we were saying sharing rests, not live here. They were turned to protect me. So this girl says you were in I said, yeah, do you swop me? Of doing it a something I say. Apparently there were complaints.

You know, I always try to make light of any tragedy and Barney having me standing next to me. We weren't married, but he burst out laughing, and if you burst out laughy, I know I did something for me and it's just always in my expission, no matter what terrible thing happens. Apparently there were complaints. It's such a great line, it really is. Yeah.

Yeah, it was paindul with Machilie. It's like, this is what we used to you know, when I was a kid and we watched Mash. We're like, oh, it's like Mash. You laugh in order not to cry. Yeah, that's right.

I love that. I love that. That was a good show that you included me in this re the g which everything is about to be quartet if you get Aaron in right, Yes, yes, we all right. So we are now down to three questions. What's the eighties ladies driven television show that resonated with you at the time or afterwards.

We usually ask us not to name their own show, but you know, a lot of people were busy in the eighties working on their show. So is there an eighties Ladies TV show other than Cagneum Lacy that resonated with you. No, okay, no, was there another Eighties Ladies Dublin show. No, that's not like Cagneum Lacey. I'm not I'm not Koons.

I'm just it was there there. Well, what we're doing a whole podcast about them. So so when you're shooting your own show, you don't get a chance to watch other people's work. I'll tell you my favorite Ladies teen shows. Yeah please packs.

Oh, we love Hacks and we love Jeane Smart because she was a famous Ladies of the eighties and designing men. But I never got to see I became friends with, oh god, the to the two Brunettes, Delton Berg, Delton James, Yeah, Dixie Carter, Dixey Carter. I only knew Dixie and Delton Coach, but I never got to know the other two women of the show. But so Hacks, Jane Smart is a piece of genius and she plays a woman of her age, so it's like being in the eighties. I mean to me, she's just a absolutely brilliant, down to earth broad and the writers that show are brilliant, and it's about a woman who is fading and does wannu?

And if I think this, everything I'm learning about this show is true, She's not about to fade. She's absolutely my idol. Again, I don't watch a lot of TV, but then I got to be introduced to Jeans Barr in this part phenomenal style and substance. And that's actually the second question, what you know female driven show of today would be your current favorite? So hacks hacks, okay, And I think you already answered this question, which is what's like the most television or scripted moment that you've had in real life.

There was a moment in my life that I would have believed if I'd seen it in a movie, and it's in my book. It's just about my flying from Phoenix to Los Angeles. I had finally admitted for the first time in my life at age twenty six, that I wanted to be an actress. I never told anybody, and I'd wanted it all my life. I worked behind the camera all in my life.

I was a production assistant, production secretary. I was challenged, sure, what do you want to do with your life? You have nothing to show for it, And I said the words out loud. My step grandmother was saying, just say it. It doesn't matter if you can have it, just say it.

That must be something you want. I said, I want to beat actors. She said so, I said, well, Mary, twenty six years old, little old starting And she said, when I was your age, I was into contract to MGM said you were, She said I was. I wasn't very good, so only lasted a year. But anyway, the evening goes on, and she said she would not tell my grandfather because my grandfather disapproved.

My grandfather was a very big showbiz lawyer. She promised she wouldn't tell him. Next morning, your grandfather would like to see you. He said, that's ridiculous. I earned something into his backerup, that's ridiculous.

I said, well, I knew you'd say that, Grandpa. That's why I asked Mary not to tell you. He said, I mean, it's ridiculous. You think I'd stand in your way? I said, oh no, He said, you want to me an actress.

I said yes, crappa. He said, so, what are you going to do about it? Well, sheap lessons? He said, great, how much of the lessons he knew? I didn't?

Never, Penny, I said, they were. I can't remember what they were exat I wrote, let's say it was five hundred, but it wasn't. I think it's like fifty dollars. For three months, he said, you got fifty dollars? Now what he said?

Grand But there was so much money, guys, you have no idea? I had nothing, nothing, And he said, so you want to go the man. I said, no, good, Bay, I came to visit you for two weeks. You invited me, he said, I know. I didn't to go home.

Now, my grandfather is a thoroughbred racer. He trained thoroughbreds, he bred them, and he raced them. And that day he saw a Philly who was ready to rock. Now you have this money, you take this class, or what are you going to do while you're What are you do while you're waiting to be an actress? Says I'll get a job.

I'm a secretary, she thought, And Mary gets your ticket go home tonight. I'd just gotten there the deck before this moment I want to tell you about. I'm flying to Arizona into Los Angers, my home, and I'm looking out the window and I knew not I knew. I wasn't a looker I knew I wasn't young, and I looked out over Los Angeles as I was landing. I said, this is where it happens.

I'm not and I knew I wouldn't. Any year later, I was under contract to the biggest television studio in the world, and I had never acted in my life. And you lasted more than a year. Yeah, that's awesome. That is a beautiful story.

Yeah, it's a beautiful moment. We just can't thank you enough forguring to do this and being a guest in our podcast. It's it's amazing. It's amazing. It's been an amazing conversation, and thank you ladies.

This was an honor. This is me being sincere. This was an honor beyond your show. Thank you very much. You're so cute.

All right, bye bye. Our audiography for today is two websites and a book. The Sharing Glass official website is at sharing Glass dot com and the Facebook page is Facebook slash Official Sharon Gless. The book, of course is apparently there were complaints by Sharon Gless. You can find these links on our own website, eightiestv Ladies dot com, as well as where to go watch the shows that Sharon was in.

As always, we hope Eighties TV Ladies brings you joy and laughter and lots of fabulous new and old shows to watch, all of which will lead us forward toward being amazing ladies of the twenty first century. Hand so pretty into the city, the money, the man world,