Warrior Women & RJ Stewart: Xena and Gabrielle's Impact on 90s TV

Weirding Way Media, So pretty the. World. Hey, just a little note on our audio for this episode. R J was in person for most of it, but we actually did a little extra zoom interview after our in person interview, So if you hear some changes in the audio, please forgive us because they're two different interviews. Thanks.

Welcome to Eighties TV Ladies, where anyone with a heart and a love of the ladies of eighties television can be an eighties TV lady, wear it loud and proud. Gentlemen, Welcome to season four with your award winning hosts Sharon Johnson and Susan Lambert had him Hello, I'm. Susan and I'm Sharon. Sometimes, Susan, you got to step outside your comfort zone. You gotta say.

Sure, we might be eighties TV ladies, but we can also look at nineties TV ladies, and there may be no more fierce nineties TV lady than the heroic villain turned goddess Zena Warrior Princess. Now, back in the day, I knew about Zena, and I caught some episodes when it aired, but just a few. How about you, Sharon, Well, I knew about it, but I did not watch the show. Oh yeah, I was just starting film career and then starting at Disney, and I didn't have a time to watch a lot of TV. I sort of chose one night of TV and it was the night of Buffy and that was it.

But I knew the show had an amazing influence on a younger generation, and I always admired the idea of the kick ass and camping nature of Xena and Gabrielle. ZENA Warrior Princess aired in first run syndication from September fourth, nineteen ninety five to June eighteenth, two thousand and one. It was a spin off of the popular syndicated series Hercules the Legendary Journeys, but ultimately became more popular than its predecessor. Filmed in New Zealand, the show follows the adventures of Xena, played by Lucy Lawless, a villain now trying to redeem herself with good works. She is joined in her adventures by companion Gabrielle played by Renee O'Connor, who grows from naive farm girl into kick butt warrior over the six seasons, and their relationship grows from annoyance to best friend and soulmate.

With some definite romantic subtext. The show was super popular. Zena became the top rated syndicated drama in its second season and remained in the top five for its whole run. Its bond TV movies, comics, video game, role playing games, and books. But it was.

Really in second run syndication in the two thousands when the show garnered its cult following, and I think that was also led by the rise of the Internet, forums, chatrooms and fan fiction. I think we need an extra brain for this interview, so we're going to bring on a brand new nineties TV baby, miss Anna Shekel. I have known Ana since she was but a wee babe. She is the daughter of dear friends Benita and Nick, and she is a big Xena fan and may in fact be a Xena expert. Anna is a visual artist who graduated from Drew University with a double major in Studio Art and Shiny Studies and a minor in art history.

She is an incredible versatile artist who lives in Pasadena. She makes art, she plays D and D with me, and she works as a shop instructor at Art Center College of Design, teaching students how to properly use tools and techniques necessary to create their projects. Welcome to eighties TV ladies, Anna, thank you so much. Before we bring on mister R. J.

Stewart, let's talk about your relationship with Sena Warrior. Princess. Yeah, Z. Princess is a show that I watched in the eighth grade because I recently discovered I was gay and secretly tried to watch every single gay thing I could get my hands on. And I was a little nervous to watch Xena because it was so everybody talked about it.

And then the second I saw the first episode, I think she did like three backflips and kicked a guy and then was like spinning on top of a guy's head. I was like, this is the greatest this is the most incredible. Thing I've seen in my entire life, and then proceeded to secretly watch it in my room. In its entirety, how did. You first hear about it?

Were there ads or were you watching Hercules? Or do you remember how you first heard about it? I just knew of it. In general culture, I feel like there are there's like an episode of Will and Grace where they make a Xena joke. There's like all these different little shows where they refer to it in the context of lesbianism, and I was like, oh, that is the show and yeah, and then I watched it that it was awesome.

So how many times have you watched that you watched every episode? I've watched every episode probably six to ten times all the way through. Okay, so you know this show very very well. I know the show very very well. Well.

I know this show very very well. For a person who is not writing down the plot of every. Episode and who's not like a TV person, yeah, I get you know. So, do you have any favorite episodes, ones that particularly speak to you I find particularly entertaining or. Wow, there were a lot.

I think it depends. I feel like my friends and family have told me that I should compile the many playlists that these would trickle down into. But I think it depends on what you're looking for. There's some really fun, campy episodes. There's some really serious episodes.

I think one of my favorite episodes is I don't remember the name of it, but bas you find out that Xena that all of the soldiers that were supposed to do all the Spartan soldiers that were supposed to fight in the pass of Thermopylae actually died, and so Zena has to fight off the entire army by herself, which in itself is like kind of campy and weird and is a testament to how powerful Xena is. But then there's also this moment where a spoiler if you haven't seen the show that came out in nineteen ninety five, there's there's a scare that Gabrielle is going to die, and so then there's a lot of heartfelt stuff there where Gabrielle's like, go on without me, and she's like, why would I do that? And so all of that was, yeah, very sweet and very poignant.

Are there any particular guest performers on the show that you like or recurring characters that you like? Really? Well? Yeah, I feel like, well, first of all, I think any one who just identifies as a general nerd will immediately recognize Carl Urban, who is one of the few actors that they cast twice as like two important people and kind of just hope you won't know. He plays Cupid and then later Julius Caesar, and he has wildly different haircuts and they don't think anyone's gonna notice, So that's really fun.

I think probably a basic fan favorite is everybody loves Bruce Campbell playing Autolocus, and that's that's really enjoyable. Yeah, yeah, but it's really funny. I feel like I don't know if it's a it's an industry thing or if it's a New Zealand thing, but if you watch zena any other show based in or around New Zealand, you will recognize all of these actors. I feel like I watched another Sam Raimi fantasy show back in high school and I was like, I know all of those people. I've seen all of those people before.

It's awesome. I love that Lucy Lawless is from New Zealand and puts on an American accent in a show that's based in Greece. That's that's so good. All right, Well, are you ready to meet r J Stewart? Yeah, I'm stoked.

Let's do it, okay. R J. Stewart started in eighties television as story editor and writer on one of our favorite eighties TV ladies show, Remington Steele. RJ wrote season one episode thirteen, A good Night's Steal and season one episode sixteen, Steal Crazy. After all these years.

Rja worked on almost two hundred episodes of television, creating several shows including Man of the Year with James Gardner. He has a very. Cool novel which came out in twenty twenty four, the post apocalyptic novel Crazy Hawk, And it was very good show. It's fantastic. It's really really fantastic.

The world building he does in creating this post apocalyptic environment. This it's it's really great. And lots of great female characters in the two, including. The lead, Yes, and a horse that I liked. Yes, Dan Danny.

So fiction is not as appealing as nonfiction to me anymore. But you said it was great. You read it fast, like we knew we were doing this interview, and like the next. Day you're like, oh, yeah, it was great. I was like, what, I have to find out what happened, and so I was like, okay, I got to get it, and I got it, and I started reading the book.

But then I walk and like to listen to stuff. So I listened to the audiobook and it's very The actress that reads it is very very good. So I highly recommend. And yes, in other words, we are recommending whether you want to get the audiobook whether you want to read it. It's it's going to be a great time.

It's a fun story. It's fun. I'm now on the hopeful post apocalyptic novels. It's hard to find them. I think that are a little bit smart.

Yeah, and this one's on the hopeful side. I think it ends on the hopeful. It's pretty brutal, but it's yeah, all right, anyway, let's get him out here. All right, we're in here. We are so excited to have him on the show to talk about our first nineties TV lady show as well as his career in television and writing.

Welcome to eighties TV Ladies, mister r. J. Stewart. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me.

We are so excited to finally get this one done. We've had to reschedule a couple of times, and you came up from the San Diego area, so thank you very much. And it's always fun to have people in person. So thanks you. I agree that's the way to do it.

I'm would just like to start with kind of what made you want to be a writer, because clearly that path. Yeah, the uh, my father was a sergeant and the Air Force sergeant Kenneth eg Stuart and uh he uh would go on a tourist of duty in Ammigia Way for a while, and he used to send me letters and in the letters would be a letter from my mother. This is back in the day, you know. Let's we actually actually wrote letters and uh uh and they would always, not always, but frequently be a story. He would write about my favorite characters.

It would be, uh, Mickey, I like Mickey Mouse in that world, and I like the Peanuts stories. So he would write one or the other, and then eventually he started, you know across the you know, they would cant fiction right exactly, and then it would be you know, and then Snoopy runs in and Goofy's chasing them. So I that was when I was, you know, a little boy. I was six seven, eight years old, you know, and so I h the idea of storytelling, the idea that you could make up your own story, you know, is something that was in my head pretty early on. And then when I was in junior high they call it today, we were stationed Greece.

You remember, my dad's in the Air Force. Yeah, so we're on the Isle of Crete and our teacher was named mister Csaiuna, and he said, I'll give you extra credit if you write a short story. So I wrote a short story every week for the rest of the year. And after a while he said, you know, I'm not getting extra credit. B I said, no, just tell me what you think.

And I know he didn't read it. And I ran into one of those stories recently going through it, and you know what, they read like a fourteen year old read him. I wrote it and so there's no there's no gems there. But anyway, the the that was the beginning of my writing. Then in college, I was in that I always thought of myself as an actor.

But I wrote a play that got produced and and it was about Native Americans. It's called Even the Eagle Dies because I had real good friends in the Native American community and so I dramatized my relationship with them. But when we moved to Hollywood, my wife and I, I was going to be an actor. That was my idea to be an actor, and uh, I started collaborating with people though, you know, not becoming a movie star or a TV star right away, I thought, you know, and I had friends who were writing. I collaborated with a few of them on different screenplays, and eventually started writing on my own.

And the first screenplay I wrote on my own got me the job on Rhymings and Steel. What was that screenplay? It's called Good Company, and it was it was the classic write what you know the script because I was I was working with the job I had was a team star. I was a delivery guy around Los Angeles. Clinice would set in my car one time because sometimes that if it was just artwork or something sends you in a little Honda and Cliniast would send up a car.

And so the screenplay was about my life doing that, delivering. You know, I want to be writer delivering stuff in Los Angeles. That cliche of write what you know it's a little tricky because but I always say, remember your imagination is something you know too, So it doesn't really have to be about your everyday life because that would be a bunch of boarding things. But you know, like I could just as well have written about a guy who delivers to space stations or planets, you know what I'm saying. But you know, take it, take you know, but bring the idea of a driver to it.

That kind of stuff. So they just loved it. Glenn Karen Lee's Lotov, Michael Gleason. These are the people that were doing the eighties show. Yes, Remington Steel.

We have covered it on our It was in our first season we talked about Remington Steel. Okay, well, we're going to get to women characters. I write and remember the premise of Remids Steele Laura Holt Child the Remiss Steele. Well, Laura Holt has a detective agency, but she's having a hard time to get getting work because of the prejudice at the time. He gets hiring a female detective right, which probably was real.

I mean, I don't know if it'd be real today, but probably was real. And so she decides to get a front for the agency. Who's this hollow suit name. We don't know what his name is. She gives them the name Reminge Steel.

Isn't that right? Well, she makes up the name Remington Steel and there's no person there, Yeah, until some guy shows up saying their Remington Steel. And then that's the pilot rights this. Guy exactly, and so so right from the beginning, I was right, you know, and I love the I thought that was a great concept. And Stephanie was what Stemphanie's Embliss is a wonderful actress and a very kind, loving person and uh, Peerce was so charming, so charming.

You know, this is before the show aired up meeting these people like oh yeah, and uh he uh uh he used to love to conflirt with my wife. They're both Irish and so there are a lot of a lot of stuff going on there because my wife would come come visit me and stuff and uh uh. So the they showed me the pilot. Okay, you know, they hired me and then brought me in a story editor and showed me the pilot. One am I, They say, you know, tell us the truth.

What do you really think? It just be totally honest. You already got the job, you know, And I said, well, it's great because I was very impressed, but you know, I got to write more for that guy who's planning that. That wasn't me being a genius. That's what the whole world thought.

A couple of weeks later, you know, when it aired. You know, see what I'm saying, and uh and uh and they they were saying that, yeah, because they were dealing with that issue. You know. It's the studio was already giving him notes. Pierce is so cool, got to write more for him.

Well, he's the mystery, yeah, you know, like and and we're just I think it was so hard for female driven shows that were popping up in the eighties, particularly a lot like this, to stay focused on the woman. It was just hard. But his name, the character, his character name was in the title of the show. Yeah, so I could you know, there's all all these I could see all these pressures going. But it was so perfect because that's what the show is about.

It's such a The show itself is a metaphor for what she's done, which is, no one would hire me. I made up a guy, and everyone will hire me now, and I just have to keep the guy, the pretend guy, somewhere out there in front of me. And then when the real guy shows up, he takes over everything, and. Of course played out in reality. She came into my office one day and said, Argie, I feel like I'm the pack meal for the plot.

Why does peers get all the fun stuff? And I said, because people are cruel to me. No, I oh, I was, you know, I was so low of ittool. Like this was above my playgrade. I think she was hoping to enlist an ally, you know, and I was.

I was. I was totally an ally of hers. But but Peers should come down and charm and charm my pants off too. So that was a that was a complicated situation. Do you know who Peers process is?

I have not seen mom Land. I haven't. I haven't either. Yeah, our son loves it. He thinks it's great.

Well, so so you're starting on this show that that does kind of have an amazing trajectory. It becomes pretty known pretty quickly, and it's got this hot, like this hot premise and a hot young cast, and you get a lot of great people, like in your episode. One of your episodes you wrote is Moonlighting. It's a uh at last Beasley and Annie Potts. Yeah, yeah, did you get to that was like the flashback one.

I think still crazy, steal crazy. You know, we're going to into this a lot. I'm not sure I remember which one. We ask a lot of our guests. But I remember Annie Annie.

It was cool. And then there was also a young Sharon Stone I think in that episode. Really yeah, I. Again, it's very early on, but that was the fun thing about Remington is a lot of people ended up on that show. That and Moonlighting had a lot of guests that you were like, Oh, that person, that person, that person.

Yeah. I went to the Xena convention recently to sell books and there was a room with a bunch of people sitting around, you know. You know, I think it really had brought a special access to us to them, and I went into this gentlemen. They asked me questions about episodes, and they I think they thought I was being evasive for some because my answer constantly was they don't remember that and some of this. One girl was obsessed about stage direction.

She said, why did this character move over there? Then? Oh, my. Not only do I not remember the stage direction, I don't remember the scene. I don't remember of the episode.

Yeah, we won't hold you accupul. Yeah, there's stuff we viewers sometimes forget. But they got upset with me. Oh that's not that's not an honest answer. I guess, Well, we viewers because because we have a tendency to watch and rewatch and rewatch shows that I really love and pick up on all sorts of things and think that maybe sometimes there's there's a reason for something that just wasn't what they were perceiving it to be and it's not.

But obviously that's not always the case with writers. You probably don't go back and rewatch a lot of the things. I met Kirk Douglas, you know, in fifties sixties. He was the guy and there was a movie I Love Coloni on the Brave and he's funny. Here at a party with my wife and I and Kirk.

I'm in the kitchen. You know, this wonderful going to meet Kirk Douglas. You know, he walks into the Michael Douglas's house and and he walks into the kitchen. He says, I hear you're a Willie Mays fan. And it was like my wife was working on him because she was saying, he's a big fan of yours and he loves you and Willie Mays and so so.

So he said, I was at Willie Mays's first game. So we sat down and chatted and and uh uh he said, so uh here, you're a fan. You know, he was kind of milking it a little bit and I said, you know, yeah, I can name your your characters Midge Kelly and John W. Burns and Paris Pittman. And he said both man, and it was there was a Crooked Man, which was kind of an obscurity Kirk movie.

And then and then I I there was a move famous scene and all the other where he's sort of waiting for the abuse of cop to come beat him out, and I said that was it was George Kennedy and you were just perfect in that. And he's saying that they want to shoot him. Yeah, so you know, he doesn't watch the even though that's he said, he said that's his favorite movie. Spilberg has said that's one of his favorite movies. But you know he did he didn't know it like I knew it, you know, yeh, yeah, it's you know, and that's the fandom in television can get pretty strong.

And it was one of the things that made Zena sort of become the cult status. Oh absolutely, it was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Before we get to Zena, I want to go back to the book for a second because I want to talk about what that writer instinct for making stories made you want to write a book. Okay, that's a great one.

Ill you know, you hear people talk about you know, I don't like retirement. Now that I'm retired, I don't like it, you know. I mean, I love retirement. I got horses. I got horses, and I got I start shooting black powder guns as if you read the you know, I bought a ranch in San Diego County.

I just started this new part of my life. And I'd say for ten years, I was just a horseman and a trail rider and this loveless horse Danny and Danny, you know. I dedicate the book to Danny. It's a real life horse, you know, and uh he he died in twenty twenty one. And I guess the simple if I was going to fail, like I say, and that's when I decided to write the book.

But I had decided that I had. I had this this whole new world of experiences I never wrote about. And I'm a writer, you know, so so I started thinking of a novel and well, unfortunately our daughter was diagnosed with stage four cancer in the midst of that. So I didn't you know, I had had like a zero draft and then we were just very much uh take yeah, and she passed in twenty eighteen. And it was really covid.

I mean, I mean, I know you hear this a lot, you know, it's really COVID. This is that. Hey, you know that book that I started before for the Lorrie got Ill. I wonder if that still works for me. I went back and looked at it and had to throw some stuff out, but I said, that's my work.

And then I finished it in twenty twenty three. Maybe no, I think twenty twenty two. But boy, the learning got self publishing was. I thought, you know, I had started here, that self publishing was a real thing. It wasn't like the guy pulling up at the book fair with the books in his trunk.

Now there was a whole world of self publishing, you know, And I thought, why don't I do that? But it was hard. It was a steep, steep learning curve, a steep learning curve. We're all now marketers, and like you, starting a podcast is a whole learning curve. Yeah.

There was a moment when I when the book was released, and I realized, I have no idea how about marketing. She probably did a little research about marketing. I released the book, but but I finally didn't sell some books. And you know, it's been interesting. The original thing was to capture my life, the valley I live in, and that writing world but the closer was Danny passing and and just sort of death.

And because because of her daughter dying and just just sort of death, you know, it was sort of a subject. And yeah, and so Danny is a horse, is a is a character in the book, and is sort of the hero horse of the of the hero lady. And so your horse also had one eye or was blind? Yes, yes, yes, oh you heard that from the I think I did read it. I do a little I did fix onize a little bit, because I do believe it helps you your imagination a little bit if you if you don't if you fix onize a little bit.

And my horse was Palomino, and uh and uh Danny and I here I have him as a buckskin. In two thousand and twelve to thirteen, my failure comes in and says, you've seen his eye. You know, he's out the ferrier. He does shoes and stuff, horseshoes, and uh, what do you mean? It's it's something wrong with it.

And I come out. It's like bulging out like this, and I had to turn out to sea disease. I'm not going to remember the name of it. But uh, and he lost his vision in that but he was always he was better. He was everybody was jealous of that horse.

This is a great horse. I got more credit for being a good horseman because of that. That that horse that I deserve because he was just amazing. It's true that you need to have a good horse. You don't know what the horse is going to do.

You need to have a good horse which you like, and once you have a good horse, you like. I would say horseback riding is the most wonderful hobby you can do. A trail riding. I do trail rinning. I wasn't doingdressage or jumping or anything.

So that's so cool and so that Yeah, so that's what this book was many Well, you know right on the cover was, by the way, another terrific person that this is. This is a woman named Lydia Puccetti who designed the cover. Yeah, she just I thought she did a great job. Where did did you get the idea for this book? I mean, it's it's not it's I don't know that it's I don't read a lot of this subject.

I don't know if it's a big genre or something, but I think. When I was in college, I read a book called Kentigill for Liebowitz and uh uh the uh. In that book, it's post apocalyptic and the post spuggles out there is a nuclear bomb, I mean nuclear war that have wiped out everything, and the first character you meet is a monk living out in the desert and all of civilization's gotten, you know. So it's really not very much like this book at all. But the one thing that I liked about it he was fascinated trying figure out what the world was like before the holocaust, right, a nuclear holocaust and the so I you know, I was playing with that idea.

I said, you know, well, rather than have it a thousand years in the future and everything we wept out, what if there's all kinds of tantalizing clues around, you know, and you see what she does. You know, she's trying to figure out what was the cloud? You know, it was the cloud and the sky and stuff, and you know then then and then of course choosing the main character be a woman kind of fit everything I do, and uh, and then I just started building it around my valley and stuff like that. So it was the charming thing about the post of bacal World for me, is you can do two things at one time. You can create a new world that you have fun with that and hopefully the reader does too.

And then secondly you can comment on our world, you see, because you know they're discovering what our world was. I was fascinated by the world you came up with and how you incorporated and pulled in things now and maybe how things might eve after the mature that. That that that has a lot to do with the horses, because I was thinking at different times when I was just so into you know, doing you know, eight hour horseback rides and stuff like what if we had to ride to get supplies and stuff? What if we, you know, if the only way to get up to LA was a horseback ride riding and so that, And then when I started thinking about this, like saying, hmmm, you know what if what if the law of the world goes away?

I was determined. That was one of my pet peeves is some post apocalyptic things, even in the near future, so much has disappeared, like there'd be some things that maintained, you know, people would remember how to build stuff. And you know what I'm saying, it's like, how do you think we got here to begin with, you know people, so I wanted there'd be slivers of the technology that's still around, like Jube as a photographer, and uh and of course the bees are dedicated into getting getting reviving the technology, and you know, the worst, the worst possible, the worst part of the worst parts of it and uh uh and then the the the trogs hated technology and so it was the worst and you know, so anyway, that's that's uh, that's part of it.

I don't know if the answered that question absolutely. I mean, it's I found that to be just really fascinating because it made sense to me that these factions would break off and would go in the directions that they went. There wasn't anything about it that felt false, if you will, in terms of where we are now and where things could devolve, if you will. Yeah, so I was I was just fascinated by by all of that and that that was just amazing. Well, you think that's great to hear the future tribalism is.

Yeah, tribalism gone crazy a while, all right, but back to the eighties. Okay, okay, it's time for a break, but we'll be right back with more r J and Anna and Zina. And we're back. Let's go. So you you are on Remington Steel and and then do you leave to do movies or do you leave too?

I left to work with Glenn Karen. He eventually went on to do Moonlight, but I and my wisdom, I went on to do other things Moonlighting. Yeah, yeah, no, No, he called me. I worked the He had two uh pilots, and they used to those days, used to do backup scripts for pilots, and I was his backup script writer for each of these pilots, and they write them and and uh uh and so they didn't go. And so I thought, well, he's brilliant writer, because think Karen is an amazing writer, thinking the way maybe he does sometimes that I get the series on to go take my chances.

So I started, and then he calls me and says, maybe I called him, And he says, uh got uh he got I think I got it this time. Bruce willis Sybil Shevard. You know, it's like, oh god, yeah, But I heard that he was kind of this way with everything he had to write at all. So I I don't think I would have been that happy on that show. Although been a great credit.

But he he needed to write a write on. And so when were you When was it like, oh, this guy writes great women. When did that start to happen, because it feels like that was something you started being brought in for. Yeah, you know, I just competed hard for those those opportunities. And I don't remember anybody was saying he's the one because he rich and there's that thing of wanting to get a woman to write a woman, you know, so that I had that a little bit of a hurdle there.

But I was just attracted to those kind of things and fought for him. And certainly when when my agent sent me the video of Lucy on Hercules playing a villain, I said, you know, is he a martial artist or something? She was so believable, so convincing, and uh and said, well you know she's an actress who learned martiall. So so that that was something I really wanted bad and. So you you went after Well they.

Were offering it to me, so, I mean, and he was surprised, he was thinking I was, you know, he thought, you know, you know Galus runing around the leather and stuff. You know that at that point, I don't even know if i'd heard about Gabrielle yet there's an idea, and he thought maybe I would be too cheesy for me, but I'm going to pat myself on the back. I immediately saw that as a cool project. So that's great. So you were brought in to be to try to figure out how the pilot and show would.

Work for right, right, right, there was an outline already for the pilot, and I worked off that outline. And it was one of these things where it was a mutual agreement that I would write the script, they'd pay me for the script, and if it didn't work, we go our own ways. And I felt that way too, because if they're not digging out my thing, I don't want to do it. And then and they didn't want to get saddled with somebody who couldn't write that. And I was I was in uh, I was out shopping and h this was before cell phones, but I think this was carphone days.

You know, we had car phones. And I called home and my wife said, rub tappricole, and I said yeah. He said, he said he's very pleased because he had read the script. And I said, Okay, I know what I'm doing. For a while because that was they already had an order of twenty shoe on the air.

So I was head writer of a show with trying two on the air, like whoa, And I love the idea, you know, So I mean, you know, of course there are bumps and bruises along the way. I mean, doesn't immediately. It was the first sweeps, the November sweeps of it's debuted in September. I'm asking you because I think you know it is September of nineteen ninety five, and we were all kind of insecure and conflicted, you know, and then November sweeps, we just we outperformed Hercules, and you know, just we were them. Yeah, we truly were the number one syndicated show.

The publicist once told me that you always say you're the number one show. Everybody says that. But anyway, that was and so that was it was that changed my life, you know that, I really did change my life that and I loved it, you know, And I gave me a leught dough so I could be a retired guy. Yeah, a horseman. I was just going to say, so, so you're the show.

Where did you guys shoot? Did you shoot in New Zealand. Yes, Oh, Anna knows that I should ask Anna. Yeah, and Zach, maybe we should have Anna asked some questions. Oh, I don't have that many prepared, but I guess right off the bat.

How does it feel to have written a cult classic? A lot of shows just you know, kind of paid off into the etherby. Yeah, there's I don't I have no memory of doing this interview, but there's something on YouTube of me saying, like just two years after the show, me saying, you know, at first I thought it was going to be a cult classic, and then it faded. I don't know what I was thinking two years later that I would know anything but the and then but now I noticed a lot of a lot of talk on it. Well, here we are, what twenty how many is it's been twenty Was this the debut?

It's been twenty thirty years the debut of the Babe. Yeah, thirty and twenty five cents. I went off the air and now like it go classes. I went to that Scenic convention and uh, and it was just so great to say so many people came up to me and thanked me for and I'm thinking, Gee, this is great. Why didn't I come more often.

Steve was so kind to me because he Steve Searushoe you guys know him, and he had a he had paid for a while of tables and he just let me sit at the table and sell. It didn't turnam anything, and uh sel my book can. I sold all my books that I had so it was fun and signed them and I met so many people who were so passionate about the show. Was really lovely. I loved it.

I'm uh well, you know, to say I should have gone more, you know, I wouldn't have had that experience. You know, it wouldn't have been such a wonderful experience if I was there all the time. You know, you know, uh Steve, Steve's like you know, he's that's his society, you know, it's his world, so he thrives there. But for me it was I'm not saying I was surprised. I didn't.

I didn't expect people to ignore me or any but you know, it was very you know, people came up, younger people, younger people, uh probably younger than you would come up and say your writing has means so much to me, and I want you to know, like really pointed, I want you to know how much we appreciate you. I said, Oh, that was worth the drive up. That's awesome. Yeah. No, writer likes to hear it that.

I did not know that Xena conventions were still going. I feel like the last time I looked it up when I wanted to go in high school, they had been canceled. That's the creation. I guess does that because they called me for that and said it's the last one. You want to come to this one?

And we actually it was a good reason we were going to go on on trip and uh, and so I said, sorry, I can. That's too bad. Yea. So I said, see, I missed the last thing and that was probably have fun. Hello, Uh, did you want to come to this one?

I said, you know, I missed the last one, so you might have got into some of that marketing gimmick. It's really cool. You wrote the majority of the early episodes, including the pilot, And then I did read an interview that you had on woosh dot com, my favorite Xeno fan site, and you also wrote you wrote a lot of the pivotal episodes, like a lot of the the ones that really kick off, mostly for Gabrielle, but a lot of the big moments that kind of steer them in their next arc of their story. And I guess my question is, were you kind of like the ringer? Did they like call you in when they were like, Okay, a big change is going to happen in the series.

We want you to be the one to write it all. Well, Uh, I used to want to write them all. I did want to write them all and uh and Rob would laugh and say, well you can't, you know, we you know, we got this writing staff and stuff. And he was right, because I'm not David Kelly you know this, or Glenn Charron, who there are people that have have to write it all and they can, you know. But I if I had to write every episode, they would have broke me.

So, you know, Steve really came through in that first season. I mean the whole time his area came through. But he really saved us that first season. But able to like writing subscripts, it didn't need a lot of work because you know, from my point of view, when the script comes in the and it doesn't work, you know that means uh, no weekend you know here on it. But as far as the ones that were juicy and I wanted them.

I had, you know, it wasn't all powerful, but I had enough power there as head writer, I could I could pick the ones that look good, and of course a couple of them were my concepts, like the ecalisto serious, you know, and that one was I felt really strongly about because I felt that, you know, the whole charm not charm maybe it was the wrong word, but the whole cook of the series is this was I believe the only time in history that in television history where a villain and out balls and of all villain, this isn't just like a charismatic bad bad girl. Now, this was a real bad woman had got her own series right, and it just felt like somewhere along the line, we have to pay that off and both both both conceptually and fun, but also in morality wise.

I mean, she got away with being a war criminal really, and so you know, I came up with the idea of what if there's a person out there whose life was ruined by one of her raids and that person has evolved into a horrible, uh person? And when and what triggered it? What led her to that was what what what Sena did to her family? And then then we cast Hudson like and everything worked. And so how often were you in New Zealand?

Did you go a lot? I went every year for a couple of weeks. The last year I was there for about six weeks. And where and I'm sure seeing people know this. Where where on the islands did you film?

Yeah? Both both the in the China episodes. Down for the China episodes, we went to the South Island to get some of the great thing. I mean, I'm sure they did it more than that, but that's one time I went with them over there to the Southland, but mostly in the North Island and uh Oakland area. It's such a beautiful country.

I got to go once it really is. It really is beautiful right on it. What else are you going to or well, my other question was kind of answered already, which was just kind of generally I am a fan, but not in the industry so to speak. So I was wondering how much power you had as a writer, like are you constantly communicating is there a big overarching story or how much are you allowed to say this is what I want to happen to these characters? Yeah, Rob and I would sit down at the beginning of every season, try to work out the art for the whole season.

And you know I had actually kind of this throughout what about Roseberry Baby one time? And that became that all thing, and uh, you know, and and he he had some pet things he wanted. He wanted to do that those China China episodes. It was like passionate about that and and I'm you know, I wanted to write them because they were cool and so U the uh it varied, but it was Rob and I working it out together. And uh, he was definite.

If I don't think he ever told me I couldn't do something I wanted to do. Maybe maybe maybe practicality wise, he said it wasn't practical. Well, you know we did that. You know where she would screw up the myths. She was going to say, how how much?

What was it? What were your rules for for the mythology? Because you got to do a lot of your own. We were Steve, and I actually thought where there was something, it is the case where it was an argument Rob, but I give it to him. He was two hund percent right, is that Steve?

And he wanted to do Julius Caesar right, And we were saying, well, we're in the Greek world's going to be Alexander or something. Care we could pick out a you know, and he said, no. It's gonna be us. We've kind of the there's a lot of tension there and we we we surrendered and it turns out like who would care, you know, we were doing we were doing the Middle Ages later on, you know, like nobody would care, nobody puzzle would get. I was going to say, and did you did that evolve?

Did you go, oh, we can kind of do whatever we want, or did you did you? I think I was more concerned. I wanted to do the you know, a a version of the Greek myths. I didn't want to be slavery slavishly accurate to the Greek myths. But well we never even tried that.

But you know, but you know, and one of the things I loved writing is I love this that she's she's quoting, She's she's talking about Oedipus and uh Gabriel in the first episode in the pilot, and uh, you know, that's where I would be like, we're gonna, we're gonna, we're living, We're going to do a world, whether Greek myths are really happening, and we're going to intercede, you know, and penetrate their world every once in a while. But as as it turned out, we did everything, We did all the myths, and that was the right thing to do it and it was a lot of fun doing it that way. Right, did you have any rules or did you you can't do this? Liz and Rob used to say, no magic, and I go, I don't know what they're talking about.

I never under said. What seems like a lot of what we did was magic, but uh, that was not really not very very very few rules. All right, let's talk about oh, hero protection, that's what it was a big thing for us. We were conscious of that we had a female lead. We wanted to be careful that, you know, she had to be just a little bit better than the men and a thing although I was the voice of you know, she's got to have her kryptonite, you know, and the cryptote became galiesto and so you know, somebody that could compete with her and endanger her if she's really just you just know all the time, you know, and you know, I mean, actually I like Jason Stathan movies.

I'm a kid at heart. I like exceous movies, but sometimes he's just too good, you know, it's like, you know, so it's helped if they're in jeopardy sometimes go ahead. So Gabrielle and her journey, did you know exactly where you were going every season or. You know we started. Keep in mind there are two kinds of well there's more than two, but there's I think in a very broadway classifying movies about women empowerment, there's two kinds of stories you can tell, or are frequently told.

There's the woman who is not empowered and then becomes empowered, and then there's the woman who's already empowered and how she handles the thing. Well, we had both right there. You know, it was so rich to her story. Gabriel story obviously became a thing about her finding herself and her becoming empowered and becoming a formidable person on her own and the and Manzino, of course, was empowered of anything. She had to de empower a little bit unempower because of you know, she had an issue that that that that uh fortuitous thing that happened that that Rob Rob sold the show to Tribune based in the villain in the other thing that that that gave it such a rich quality, such a rich quality.

So the you know, Sam Raimi wasn't involved with it much really just said in a few meetings, but he did say I remember a meeting where he said, got to do the past, got to do the past, you know, and you know that that she was a villain and so so yeah, it that was the that was the gravitas of the show, that she was once evil, now she's good. And that's the way I saw it as is. You know, she's shown a redeemer off too. I mean we all do that. I mean we all make mistakes and try to redeem ourselves, I hope, and the you know, so it's a very relatable thing, although hopefully not not many people are redeeming themselves for committing mass murders or stuff, but hopefully not.

But if they are, that's what they have, that's what they want to themselves with. Hopefully they're redeeming themselves in prison. Something that. Working with Lucy Lawless, working with Renee O'Connor, how was. That just wonderful.

You couldn't get too nicer people. They're just so warm and and uh, just just great great, great people. There's you know, I was thinking, not this interview, but another interview I did a few months ago, I should say, so I come up with something that humanize them, so I'm not just saying all the time they're great people. And you know, there were times that I got a phone call or two from Lucy where she was complaining about something about her character, and I don't think I ever did with Renee, but really no, they're just nice all the time. And it was it was wonderful, rewarding, and the dailies were so great, you know, you know, you know it's not always true, you know, the dailies are I mean, I'll even admit to the first script I wrote for Regen Steelee, I was a polled at the dailies and everybody had to keep telling me there's nothing worse than dailies, And there's nothing.

It's never as bad as the dailies, and it's never as good as that first cut with when you have the music in it. Those are two extremes you got to keep away with because when you finally get the music and the sound right and stuff, there's still a lot of editing to go, probably making it shorter, but you're so relieved that it's not that horrible thing you saw in the dailies, so then you think, oh, hemmy. So at first it's like, I'm you know, and got to hang myself. But by the time I got to Zee and I was a little more ready for that. But it was no problem because it was Lucy and Renee were just so good all the time, and it was just snow.

And then when I go down there, they're always so warm and charming and and such good people. So now did they ever go okay? You know, there were walking on the horse or whatever, you know, was there some point where they were like, uh, this is crazy, this is too crazy. I was. I don't remember it, but there was some controversy with Renee's hair when she cut it short or nodding.

I don't remember what it was. Either she didn't want it or she did and DROP didn't monitor to something like that. But I I never heard, you know that, I you know, when you're writing. I don't think I ever mentioned hair length and any script I wrote, so I could care less and she looked great either way, you know, so I didn't, But there was there was I remember some controversy about so, you. Know, maybe not in the context of Rene's personal opinion, but I remember the lesbian following was very upset about it because they it made Gabrielle more butcher than Xena, and everyone was really upset about Oh wow, big, They're like, they're not allowed to do that.

Gabrielle is the more feminine one, and it was. Wow, that was something. I mercifully I did not know that, but I know there was something in the I would tell you because that would be like a simple one to give some textion to it. But I just don't remember whether she liked it or didn't like it. I think maybe she got the haircut and Rob was Yeah.

I think maybe that was it, but I don't know. Well, we have noticed in eighties and nineties television women's hair is very important. There's a lot of discussion at the network level. There was a lot of discussion in Scarecromssus King when uh, when Kay Jackson cut her hair and everybody freaked out. Yeah so no, no, this is second hand, but I thought it throws some juice at hey.

Yeah, evidently k Jackson was the hardest person to work with in the history. Have you heard that about your Yes, I've heard different writers who are like battles scar beat up and they come in to Zina try to get work, and then I'm going, and how was it working with k you know, so of course I did. You know, that's total second hand gossipy stuff. I know, so I throw it out there now it is, it has come up, because it comes up a lot, and and then there's that thing of like well but in some ways, so was Glenn Gordon Karen or so was you know, like it doesn't get quite as turned. I think when it's men doing it, they're just being demanded.

And I heard that after I left. Nothing new with me. But you know, after the Peers u after the Remington became big, price became difficult, and then after you know, I remember what they did to him with the Bond. Yeah, yes, evidently he was a handful of. Bond Remington Bond.

For the listeners who don't remember the he was offered the part of James Bond a few years before he actually started doing it, and NBC wouldn't let him out of his Rams Steel contract even though when he got the offer. This is what I understood. I was not with the show at that time. But from what I understand, they had didn't plan to make any more episodes, but they still had him on the contract, so they made a few two hour movies just to keep them on. They made them come back the show.

I'm standing in line at a movie theater I wish I could remember which I think it was in Burbank. And I look over and there's Pierced and he's, I guess, with his family or some and he you know, you know, you can tell he recognized me, but he can't place it, you know. So he walks over and he extends his in and I said, r J Stewart, I was on Remmington And he said, oh yes, r J. What are you doing now? And now at that time, I was doing features.

I said, I'm going to some features here. And the w was when that controversy was going on with NBC and he did not like that. He was very clearly on it. And I said, yeah, I heard what NBC did. Do that's he said, oh yeah, oops and uh and so uh anyway, so he but he did very well though he did.

It turned out okay, it all worked out, but it was it was so I in my memory based on what we learned when we covered the show. They had canceled the show. Then it was announced he was going to be and so then the reruns of the show did so well because suddenly they're like, brought all this attention to the show, and so then they're like, well, we still have we technically can still pull it back, and they pulled them everybody back. So Stephanie had been cast as the female lead and RoboCop really and she had to leave that show and she was fully cast. It wasn't just an announced gossip.

But yeah, So then I don't think either of them were not thrilled to come back for that. But yeah, but yeah, television, man. I'm sure many people have learned about that, learned from that situation in terms of either when they make announcements or what they have in their contract about being able to get out of it or time, you know, timing and all that other kind of stuff. So yeah, because that was that was so unfair. I think to both of them at the end of the day, that was a brutal I could I could see, yeah, and I could see the tension in him.

Yes, just I'm trying to get bond. That's you know, this guy who I barely remember his name is working in features but I can't get and they offered me the art, you know, and I can't get there. But he got there exactly. He eventually eventually we need to play a violin for him. Well he has had tragedians left, but he the his career went very well.

What what a what a cool guy. What a cool guy? What a cool guy? And so all right, so let's go back to Zena and Gabrielle for a minute, because there's there's a it's a it's a buddy story, it's a friendship story, it's a love story. Did you know what line you were drawing for that female relationship?

Uh no, but we were informed by by the audience of it and uh and in the developing, the subject to start becoming a part of story sessions, you know, like, oh and this would be cool in uh the the episode I wrote called uh Day in Life. I had originally imagined them, you know in the old Westerns. They they they they would would after a cattle driver something. Uh they be uh uh get their their their tub, their hot order tub, you know, and they'd be you know, side by side, you know, Lee Marvin and somebody else. I remember one with Glenn Ford, Jack Lemon and uh the uh uh, And then we were going to go there, but then I was writing and I said, what am I doing?

They got to be in the bathtub together, right, So so we. We went that way. There was no question of that. But now it it, you know, when they came to me and said, uh, you know, this is a huge lesbian following, us said oh cool, you know, let's let's see what we can do. Did you get any pushback from the studio or anything at all?

None, in the slightest the The studio was Universal, the distributor was Cha Tribune, and neither one of them. They just if it makes if the numbers are good, they were fine with it. And uh so, yeah, no, no, I didn't. I never heard it. Anyway.

I think Rob is probably good at keeping some of them away from us, you know. So that's part of the job of the executive producer to deal with a lot of that, you know, because it has it is now kind of known that it was this powerful show for lesbians. M hmm. Were they or weren't they? Am I I'm allowed to ask that.

Like I'm curious what you think. I'm curious. You know, we're Xena and Gabrielle in a romantic, intimate relationship. Were they in a gay relationship? What would you say today to that answer?

I leave that up to the fans, and the fans have decided after thirty years, thirty years this year of when we first premiered, they're gay. There's no question they're gay. I know that because I go to a convention. I went to a convention this year where they celebrate them being gay. It's held every year.

I'm not saying everybody that goes to the convention is gay, but I think everybody is fine with them being gay. And I recommend everyone go to that Zena convention because it's a beautiful thing to see so many people who get so much meaning out of that relationship between Gabrielle and Zena. It's really inspirational. Well, I'm curious, though, what it meant to you, because I think it meant a lot to women to see women female friendship is rare, close female friendship very rare on television, and and obviously at the time, a same sex relationship very rare, and especially lesbian. It meant something to generations of people.

I mean, it's interesting sort of what I was talking about earlier in the in the intro is, I had been on a quest to find anything that had two women in love and kind of got answered, and so I had seen things of that in a more commercial or explicit way, which is to say, there are like a handful of lesbian rom coms that existed back when I was looking, not now they're a lot more. And so while it was something that I was sort of scouring for, I think I was just so charmed by the show that it that while it was the inciting incident to watch the show, it really took a back seat almost immediately. That's another thing too, is that you gont to understand where what was my job is to get the order for the next season, then it's successful, And you know, we weren't.

We were looking at each episode what we could do best to get the most eyeballs on our show, and that's the way we went. And we had a lesbian working on a show, Liz Freeman, who's probably my well not probably, she's my best friend still working in the business, and she was not going that direction at all. She did not enthusiastically support anything like that, not that we ever discussed that seriously because we were going episode by episode and trying to, you know, worry about ratings and getting that order for the next season and uh and so were just one of the things I've seen in different articles is different people have suggested it was discussed. It was never discussed in the sense of they're definitively gay.

That was never There was never a meeting. I was aware we're committing totally to them being having a gay relationship. Well, and I think because it takes place in such a flexible world, both historically and magically, like it sort of fits a little bit to not answer all the questions, But where was the line comedy wise, right, humor, because there's there's a lot of humor, there's a lot. Of like, well, with me, it was much further with Rock what's this thing where she they they're trying to get the sword out of the thing when we jump to the Middle Ages, and then she comes in and takes sort out and says it's a joke. It's a joke.

He says, nothing to do with the story. It's a joke. Jokes are fun. So yeah, look, if when I I did u, uh, rewrite on a comedic episode and uh and then give it out. And I heard people laughing in the other room.

Fel great, and you know, so you know I I I think when the one thing that didn't work is really silly stuff, I thought they it was. It was a point I didn't wasn't with the show. I was working on Cleopatra and they did a couple of shows. I don't know what the o they're doing, you know, I have no idea what they were doing. And they were attempted at comedy, you know what I'm talking about.

I think, so I don't. I can't remember what they were. But when I when I came back to the show, I watched all the episodes of I said, what the hell is going on with that show? And he said it was your fault. You weren't here to stop me.

Yea, that is I feel like Zena is a pretty you know, there are episodes that are really wacky, and so it's like, oh, that's fun, that's campy. But to this day, the episode Married with fish Sticks, if you guys have never seen makes that's it feels like a fever dream. Yeah, it was a crazy episode. Who gets the writing credit in it, and I don't know. I don't know there's a j R.

Stewart. So one of the other TV shows that you created, A Man of the People, working with James Garner and Kate Mungrew, I would just I just like both of those actors. Yeah, they're both great. I mean, Jim was just the hardest working guy he when we did that show. He had a lot of problems with those legs, so that we would limit it in how to do it.

I wrote it for as an hour dramatic and he wanted to do a half hour schedules because of that very reason. Kate and I share the same birthday April twenty ninth, with we who listen to the people born him on our birthday, Willie Nelson, Michelle Pfeiffer, Daniel day Lewis, the Duke of Wellington, Jerry Seinfeld. Is that a loaded birthday? Wow, that's a loaded birthday. Pretty good.

It's a good day to be born. My granddaughter was born. Oh so yeah, you know we'd make jokes about it. I really to this day, like the script I wrote for the pilot a lot, even the cutdown version and a half hour version that I had to do over a weekend. By the way, some movies that I had questions about you worked.

You wrote Lovers, Partners and Spies, which was directed by jan Eliasburg, who we have interviewed on the show. Do you remember that, yes, yes, absolutely, it was a pilot. It was a pilot. Oh, okay, that was a pilot. Yeah, worked with her in Mexico.

Don't remember a lot about it. Well, it was nineteen eighty eight. Yeah, during the writer show. Oh that's what I remember. I'm down in Mexico and it's a writer strike and of course I'm the writer and they expect me to be making changes for the writer's skills, telling me you cannot make changes.

Okay. So that was terrifying. That was very high stress because you know, there's yeah, I mean and so one hand, you can always use an excuse not to make a bad change, knowing I can't. I can change. I'm sorry, but sometimes I God, this needs to be made change.

You know. And I took the strike seriously, you know, So it was very that was tough. That's a tough way to do it. And you know, people are you know when I you know, simple things like we need to you know, we need a different out here. I would just do it on the set, you know, Oh, crucify me, you know, for for for changing a line at the end of one scene.

But if they really wanted to, like, you know, developed scene, I was really uncomfortable with that. Oh my God, all right, and God created a woman. Yes, Working with Rebecca in the morning. Working with Rebecca was wonderful. I got to visit her at the hotel Momont where she was staying, and we went over the script several times, and U you know, it's Rebecca's performance is the main reason to watch that movie.

The uh. She took them on fair criticism at the time. I don't know why, but in retrospect she's very convincing and of course incredibly beautiful and sexy and and that's that's the reason I watched Singa Create a Woman. Working with the deam was fun. He's a charming guy.

He uh. In some ways in the nineteen eighties, the movie seemed anachronistic, even you know, for the nineteen eighties. It's interesting that that today young people watch it, they kind of write off that anachronism as that's of the nineteen eighties, you know, and even though in the nineteen eighties it was an achronistic, you know, in some ways. I mean, you know, Roger Vadim was a giant in French cinema in the fifties and sixties, and by the eighties. I don't know if America was waiting for the next rojer vide movie.

But I talked to young people today who like it, and some of them will love it, so, you know, I think, and what they love is Rebecca Derney is definitely makes it worth the price of emission. Yeah, she's pretty sure me. You know, when you say anachronistic, I mean there was also Roger Vedeen directed another movie in nineteen fifty six called and God Creative Woman. But it's a completely different that's right, it's a different story. Ebert said, I'd be you know, he said, I think this is the This is Roger Ebert's talking.

He said, I believe this is the first time a title has been remade by the original director, not the movie itself, just the. Title Amazon high with Selma Blam. Yeah. Now that's kind of a weird one because it tested very well. But here's this is an inside Hollywood h here you have to have the star locked up.

If you're going to do a pilot, and no matter how charming and wonderful and cool the star may be, if you don't have her, him or her locked up, do not go down that road. Because we could have gotten a series out of that. It was tested very well and uh the but but we didn't have some of locked up and her career was taken off. So a big mistake. Oh my gosh, that seems that seems kind of normal in terms of what would be done in terms of deals for pilots and things.

Wow. A few arguments about that, all right? And then the Rundown two thousand. Yes, that was the script I wrote for Warner Brothers. Did they eventually person no universal perusin the uh and it was my calling kind of script for many years, you know.

I mean I wrote the first draft in uh uh eighty eight. I think you come right after right after those strike, right after those strike. It would be eighty eight eighty nine. That's when I was working on it with Scott Ruden. You know, people love the script when I turned it in, and I've kind of disappointed didn't go anywhere.

A long story short then back and then in the the Rock appears in a movie called The Mummy. He's and they're just so convinced he's the next star. And so my two producers I know very well. Unfortunately both of them have passed away now, but Chris Chester and Karen Glasser were able to get the script to the Rock and at that time, excuse me, they got it to Vince McMahon this is that's right, and he loved it and sold Rock Is this should be your next movie. And so, h uh, the and I had the script and turnaround, you know, a turnaround is you know at a certain point when the when the when the studios ignored your script enough, you the writer gets it back.

And so I made a sweet deal out of that and became a pretty good movie. Part of the retirement, Yeah, part of the retirement. Yeah. That and Brasilia Rosario Dawson was in that. Did you go on set for that?

Yeah? I did go on set, but I never saw her the days I was on set. I mean, that was one of those obligatory things they had to let me outset because I wrote the first draft and uh, but she was never there. I met the Rock. Christopher Walking's fun as always there.

Yeah, Oh, this is a story I got my our son. I got him a job on I think because I knew both producers and that to do so. He uh, he was getting the cover sign by everybody on the show, which I have hanging on my wall. You know that, you know of the script when it was called Eldorado. That was my title for it, Hildorado, And so everybody's signing it and stuff, and and he goes up to walk in and he says, uh, what is this for?

He says, that's from for Orgie Stewart, he's my stepfather, and blah blah blah blah blah. And uh, he said, where's he? Uh? He should be here, I said, I buy myself would would tell it much better than I. The point is that he was.

He didn't like all the rewrites that get bringing him, you know, so he signed up for my script. You know, it's interesting I want to go through that that. I look at that way once a while, the thing with all the signatures on the zero dos, and you know, and h it's amazing you can read them all. And that's not true. All the time I saw the thing from Rammings and Steel that everybody signed, I can't read much.

Oh my gosh, Anna, do you have any last I. Think, any last questions? Yeah, So I will just end on a comment, which is that I extremely love the show. It's my favorite show, so thank you for that. And it has kind of going back to an earlier topic, I think it's incredible that women are in every single role, the hero, the helper, the villain.

Is incredible. I feel like you and your team have done incredible jobs or an incredible job at writing characters that are women instead of writing women characters. And thank you so much. It's been really nice. By the way.

The crazy that it also has a almost every key character is a woman, YouTube being the exception. Well, do keep us posted on the progress towards getting it made into a mini series. I would. I'm chomping at the bit to see it. I think I wrote it as a novel, so I mean, if he gets that's icing, you know, that's that's it's a distant success here.

But I wrote it as a novel, so that's why. And will you where there will be another novel or there will be Thank you so very much, thank you. I really enjoyed it. You guys are really good at this thank you. Yeah, we appreciate and appreciate you, you know, taking the time to come up here and talk with us, And.

It was not it was not stressful at all. It's really a delight and you are our first like nineties TV Ladies, Yes, ladies character. So was the No, Lindsay Agne was the seventies, right, she was seventy. So we definitely we've always said we're ready to go to the seventies or the nineties because they're very informed by or reforming of the eighties. But we tend to stick to shows that are led by women.

So an eighties TV Ladies show and everybody kind of gets We used to discuss it a lot in the early first season of what it meant, and I feel like it's where the woman drives the story. Is an eighties lady show. All right, Well, thank you. Thank you, thank you both. Yes, Anna, thank you so very much for coming on the show with.

Us, having had a really good time. I was so delighted to have you join us. I love our nineties TV babies. I don't know if you've listened to any of those episodes of eighties TV Ladies, but now you're officially a ninety TV babies as well, so we might have to get you back on show you some eighties show. We're going to see what you can make heads or tails of.

But I am you know you're my daughter from another. Mother, nineties TV NEPO baby. And I was really glad when when this came up. I was like, I have to get on this show because I knew you knw Zina back and forth. Yes, thank you so much for the opportunity.

This is truly a once in a lifetime chance for someone who loves the show. And I think it was clear that he really appreciated how much you loved the show as well, so that was that was really lovely to. See he really thought I knew more dates than I did, but that was very kind of it. Anyway, thank you for coming on the show. Thank you for having me.

And here's a little trailer for the book that we got from r J himself. Deirdre lives for one purpose, to get her sister back. If she has to kill the kidnappers, that won't be a problem. She's good at that. Crazy Hawk by r J.

Stewart in today's audioography. You can get the novel Crazyhawk at Bookstore dot org or your neighborhood bookstore. You can listen to the book on Audible. It's narrated by Katie Hageman and I highly recommend it. She does a great job.

You can find out more about r. J. Stewart at IMDb and links will be in our description. Hey guys, we have one last show of Richard Adams Paranormal Bookshelf Light in the Dark Tour. We're going to be in Long Island, New York for a special performance at a private home and you'll get to go through a really fun haunted house before the show.

It'll be Saturday, September twenty seventh. Please join us. You can get tickets at RHPB dot event bright dot com or off Richard Adams Paranormal Bookshelf dot com website. As always, we hope eighty Stevie Ladies brings you joy and laughter and lots of fabulous new and old shows to watch, all of which will bring us closer to being amazing ladies of the twenty first century. So pretty Into the City