Rebel Moon: Head Cheese

Hey, I'm Marta Kristen, and you're listening to Movie Meltdown. Movie Meltdown. It's showtime. The following feature has been rated R by the Motion Picture Association of America. It is intended for mature audiences and parental discretion is advised.

Our nuclear reactor pumping out one million kilowatts of power. Provide more cooling in the containment chamber. To your citizens, we have a movie meltdown. Well, you've proven yourself to be a pain in the neck, so why don't you just fly off? What's up, and welcome to Movie Meltdown.

I am Brian, and once again, through the magic of the internet, joining me is... Sam! Drag. eating some pizza i'm sorry. Well i mean we're refueling we are uh midway in i assume you're also loaded up with coffee by now so yeah buddy the return of the caffeinated movie geek because we're we're both fueled up and we've already you know i'm i'm assuming you've listened to the last episode where we went on and on about um some charming films yes uh Aside from my crazy body swapping movie, we finished up with a sort of a love letter to very low budget. This one in particular sci-fi movie.

So as we rounded that out, I was like, well, I'd like to swing the pendulum all the way to the other end. And another one that I'd watched all of my own free will. And then you mentioned that you'd seen. I was like, oh, well, then we definitely need to dig into this. Boom.

So as we get back into it here, we I guess should just jump into it and discuss the recent release. It really didn't even for normal people didn't even go to theaters. It just jumped right to Netflix. The recent film Rebel Moon. Boom.

Rebel Moon. It's time for Sofa Theater. When I found you in the wreckage of that ship, I considered leaving you. I was afraid you could bring trouble to us. What do you think they want?

We're just farmers. We're not a threat. They won't just kill us, will they? We're delusional. You think those soldiers will show them mercy?

Stop. Stop. We're gonna have to fight. I am a child of war. I find warriors to fight with us.

We might stand a chance. We're searching for soldiers for a fight against the Motherworld. I could help you. For a small fee, obviously. You may want to hold.

On. I'm here to make you an offer. To give you a chance at redemption. We are beyond redemption. What about revenge?

This isn't just pursuit of revolution. I have found her. The most wanted fugitive in the known universe. It's a new age for the universe. Do you remember the subsection title?

Because it has a whole other title that, again, I feel like will be forgotten for all time. Right. Rebel moon. So child, a child of the moon or something, or moonshot. Part one, a child of fire.

A child of fire. Yeah. But don't you feel like it's trouble when the movie is title colon part one. Oh, when they know ahead of time that there's a part one, like, I don't know. Do you think that adds a problematic thing to this scenario?

Like, would we have had Slave Girls from Beyond Infinity, colon, part one? Oh, okay. Well, if you know, well, I think it's fine if you know you've got it in the can. You know, you wouldn't want to call it Superman part one, you know, but. I feel like it was a joke when, like, History of the World did it.

Right, right. Mel Brooks is a comedic genius, and he was like, wouldn't it be funny if we slapped part one on this? Oh, okay. But now we do it unironically. That's true.

Now we do it. Incomplete and utter yep i made a giant thing and you're gonna. Watch all of it because i said so yeah that's true it's it's very uh presumptuous of them isn't it. I feel like it is both of netflix and our pal zack snyder. Zack snyder and so now after extolling in the last episode uh the the cinematic stylings of the genius, Mick G I'm going to further destroy my credibility as somebody you should listen to about filmmaking by saying that I really do like Zack Snyder as a filmmaker and And as, like, a visual storyteller.

Well, this episode's over. All right. So, I know. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

I know. I know. That really is why I wanted to do this. Because we didn't really say much beforehand, but I got the impression that you liked it. And I was like, wow, that is so different from where I'm coming from.

So, like, I kind of want to hear both sides of this. All right. All right. I watched it and I had a very many, very specific responses and I was just like, huh? So I landed kind of the other direction to some extent.

So I definitely want to hear what your take on it is. All right. Okay. Well, I'll just get into it then because look, is Zack Snyder, you know, Stanley Cooper or some, some, you know, is he like, you know, is, are his movies fantastic? I would say no.

But I would say I think he's a fan. There is something about his movies. Sometimes, you know, watching like Man of Steel, I was going like, man, Zack Snyder underlines, highlights, italicizes, and puts 15 exclamation points in all caps on everything he does. He has a distinctive style. I will give you that.

Yeah, it has like a certain... You know, just everything's so emphasized that it's, like, this heightened thing. And, you know, there is no, like, Evan Flo in his movies. It's, like, everything has, like, this kind of super hyper-intensified reality to that, you know, you go, like, whoa. And, you know, it's, like, to... worse extent in like something like sucker punch which is just all style and visual which but with with a story that's incomprehensible.

But then that's maybe my favorite of. His i think it's like it's also ridiculous but there's so much to it that i'm like i don't know i kind of got to give him credit for that that at least like is it it's still i was i would say. It's his most original because he usually was covering other people's material before and after that. But like, this is his most original concept. But at the same time, like once you dig into it, like, well, none of it is.

It's here's a, a mini episode of this thing that already existed in this thing that already existed. So yeah, it's like, it's just him. taking his things that he's interested in and then cramming them all into a movie together and having no real through line. That's right. It's supposed to have a framework of why this is like this, but it barely does. You're just kind of like, eh, whatever.

These visuals look cool. And then you ride that out. And, and you know, the visuals do look cool. So you can't argue that the man doesn't have taste. All right.

He has style. He has style. I don't know that he has taste, but he has style. Okay. He has style.

He definitely has style. And I like his style. I like how he makes movies. If I feel like the scripts and everything, I'm maybe not the biggest David Goyer fan. And there's just things in his movies that... that it seems like more of a screenplay.

I know the guy, you know, develops a screenplay with them. So he said, it's fine that that's in the screenplay. So, so there's times where I go like, oh man, but as just a, such a completely layered piece of visual piece of what is a piece of piece of visual visual, the visuals in his movies have a certain level of detail to them that i know it's not zach working away in his garage making these things or drawing these things he has probably an army of uh you know art directors and designers and. He would have to for these visuals for these visuals right armies of like visual people working for him that are putting these together the people can't even be in the room when he's shooting half of this stuff so it's like it's a different style just to put that sort of thing together.

Right. Right. And he has to be with all that information coming in. He's got the resources to hire the best of the best, but he, he gets to be the final boss. uh curator he. Is an auteur that's yeah he isn't oh we're coming kind of director you can't just throw anything at him and it's gonna come out looking generic right no offense to mcg no right which was kind of our takeaway on the last one like right they just handed him a project he cashed a paycheck it looks like a made for tv project yeah in its direction really and like no offense to him it's it's fine, but like, you're not going to get that from Zack Snyder.

You cannot hand him that and get back something that could be identified as anything else, but a Zack Snyder project. Like exactly. Exactly. That's what he does. He just exudes and oozes the stuff all over.

Pretty much. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So I think maybe.

Your criticism to the movie, but how you just described it for me was the movie. All right. But, but yeah, that for your point, Zack Snyder movies, you can never say he phoned it in, you know? No, I mean. not visually no no no in other aspects i feel like he does but well i don't know that he's phoning it's like he's sacrificing one for the other he's like i'm not gonna worry about this part so that i can focus so much right i can laser focus on this part right here which is these amazing visuals that's this great fight choreography this action scene like i'm gonna focus on these things so much that i really don't care about what's going on over here that's just like Character development. Right, right.

Or creating a story that makes any sense. Right, right. Sure, sure. It's... Right, right.

So, yeah. You know, he knows where his strengths are, you know, and he pours it into that. But for me, it's like they're all really swing-for-the-fences kind of movies, you know, for me. And, you know, the... Sure, the.

Believable character motivations like Kevin Costner just saying like, oh, don't, don't, save me from this tornado. I'm just going to stand here and get sucked up by a tornado because that's what the script needs. And it looks cool. And Zack Snyder is going to shoot the hell out of it and make it this like iconic Kevin Costner image, you know, I'm going to be blown away. But no, I think it also is that when I just like it, it's because the script needs this to get to the next part.

I'm going to do it. It doesn't necessarily make sense from my characters. And that's what we end up with this. Like, Right. If we're jumping into some of the issues, I feel like there's so much of it that is like, well, why are they doing that?

Cause they need to do that to get them the next part. How are we going to get to the end of this part of the movie? If we don't get through this part in the middle that it says right here, we got to go pick up all the people so we can have a fight. Right. So I feel like there's so much of it that is just, why is it like this?

Because it needs to be good enough. Moving on. Right. Well, shoot the next scene. Right.

Right. Okay. All right. So, Yeah, the movie is trapped in the genre, okay? It is trapped in trying to be a very specific thing, and it is borrowed, to say that this movie borrows, but it, so, yeah, yes, it's got the Hollywood plot of, like, the seven samurai going on for it, right?

That's what I was going to say. We can say it's a knockoff Star Wars. I mean, Star Wars knocks off from the best stuff ever, too, so it's not like Star Wars is above that. but it also literally is a knockoff star Wars. It was a star war, an R rated star Wars script that was pitched to Disney and Disney went, uh, no. And then he went fine.

I'm a Zack Snyder. I'll make it myself. I don't need you. So he went to Netflix or however the process happened. I won't really know.

I just know it was literally a rejected star Wars script that they were like, we're not going to let Zack Snyder make a star Wars movie. And he just went and did it himself. And I think, uh, that's bad-ass. And I think, uh, I like the spirit of that. Okay.

Okay. And now we were on a flashback to free, uh, free, uh, uh, sequel trilogy, star Wars. Okay. And we're going to, I, I, the scene is I'm at a friend's house and we're hanging out in the backyard and, And we're talking about, you know, possible more Star Wars movies and how, you know, the goodwill has been burnt down by the prequels. And yeah.

And so, you know, we really do have, they've got a lot of work to do to, to fix Star Wars. And I told, I told my friend, I said like, if they, it wouldn't take much if we just get like somebody, you know, really like, Like, a good script. Like, if you knew Lawrence Kasdan was writing the next Star Wars, wouldn't you just be there immediately? You know? Put me on board.

I'll pre-buy that ticket. Right. Exactly. And that's what they did. So, you know, that's something they did right.

Right? They brought back Kasdan to work on it. And, man, it got us into the theater. It was definitely there. We want to forgive.

We want to forgive. We love the source so much. Right. We'll be willing to forgive past cinema sins to get to this new possibilities of what we could have Star Wars on the big screen again. That's right.

That's right. All is forgiven. Just come back. It's like the prodigal son. Or it's like, you know, a rocky relationship.

Which, I mean. our like four hour episode of that first movie that we did. That's pretty much what I said. I was like, he just hit reset. It's like, again, talk about sort of an opposite version of a director. They gave it to JJ and JJ is like, look, I know what you guys want.

I know what you're mad about from the last one. I'm going to take all that into account and just kind of give you what you want. I'm going to hand you exactly what you want. He's also a very visual stylized kind of a guy, but he's not afraid to cash a check and tow the company. That's right.

That's something that is different. Zack Snyder is not going to do that. Zack Snyder is going to deliver Zack Snyder no matter what. JJ will be like, what do you guys need? Fine.

I can do that. I will deliver and I will cash that check and we will rebuild this whole new Trilogy of films. It's so funny. It's like you're going like, hey, you got a problem. I got a problem.

We both got this problem here, you know? I can fix it and get us all a lot of money. Get us all a lot of money. So again, that, that is something that happened that first movie. And he, I think the first movie he did successfully, like it rebooted it.

It recaptured everything you loved about the first one, almost to the point of remaking it at moments. But at the same time, it brought a new characters. It took us on a new road to tell kind of different stories, but not too different because we want the same thing. Same thing again. So like, it just barely varies it up a little bit, but at the same time, it adds some new aspects and it's like, okay, and go from there.

Right. And everything was great from that point. Everything. Nothing else went wrong. Nothing else went wrong.

It just, it just, it was like, it was like now when people talk Star Wars, they think the, the, the sequel trilogy, they don't even consider the first two trilogies. It was like, it was like, like, yeah, there's those early six movies, but it's not really what Star Wars is. It didn't really come together and find the focus until JJ got involved. Right, right, right. Exactly.

Until Rian Johnson really took the series in bold new directions. Powell drived it right in the middle. Like, screw you guys, follow this movie. I like Rian Johnson. Me too.

And Last Jedi was my favorite of the new ones. Anyway, so we're moving on. Strike three, Conkle, you're out. I think Rian Johnson is the highest level you've reached so far. Of the Zack Snyder McG trilogy there, I think Rian Johnson's the best of them.

You may be right. Zack Snyder, and the other thing I said to that guy's backyard was, Lawrence Kasdan, and I said, then you give it to a really interesting visual director like Zack Snyder. And so the Zack Snyder thing with the sequel trilogies, that didn't happen. But I've, since, I've always said, man, I would love, now, so I, guess what? There is no bigger target audience for this movie than me, who once said, man, I would love to see what a Zack Snyder directed Star Wars movie would be like.

And it's almost like the A.I. Reached into my head. It heard you. It heard me. It's listening to everything you say.

It is. On this computer and your phone and microphones in your house. It's almost like I've spoken to ChatGPT and said, Zack Snyder's Star Wars movie. Alexa! Alexa!

Make me as a movie, but I want Zack Snyder to be visual stylist for George Lucas concept. Go. Let me know when it's ready. I'll sit down with some popcorn. Thank you.

Yeah, exactly. Movie delivering in 32 seconds. I mean, sadly, we're coming to that. I mean, as someone who created really dumb AI artwork for our last several episodes- I think I'll continue and try to find like more blue monkeys eating popcorn or whatever, but it's the same thing. Like I can, at least within a still image, I can type in that kind of nonsense, be like George Lucas. visuals, Zack Snyder, blah, blah, blah.

And it delivers this amalgam of nonsense that sort of fits what you just said. And I'm like, that's where we're going with film. We're getting to the point where we're going to be able to do that somewhere in the near future. Yeah, for real, man. For real.

So this was like a peek into that where it was exactly the movie I wanted it to be. So it was Zack Snyder-isms. It had that it had that 18 dimensional depth of art direction to it. Yes. That I just did that.

I just get, I get lost in and I can just watch that and a really style it, you know, kind of like the blade runner thing, you know, you just like to watch it. You just like looking at it, you. Know, I can live in the blade runner world. Like I've seen, again, it is one of those, the crossover into the physical world. I've seen them make Lego sets.

In the weird, because they're super like into the Ninjago world and Ninjago world is like one shade away from Blade Runner future to me. So I was like, I kind of want to get those and just create my own little Blade Runner world that you can have your little knee figs running around. And that's kind of like, it's that immersive in Blade Runner. I don't necessarily get it with the Zack Snyder one, but, but I will let you continue on. Well, yeah, because it's all digital worlds, it's almost like, it's not like Blade Runner where, You feel like you're there.

But I look at the images in these Zack Snyder movies and in Rebel Moon and I see so much polish, thought, style, effort into just like the design of it all that sometimes that just really does become the whole experience for me. You can see that. Again, that's all there. It's almost like I was, again, doing a little research on this. One of the people that wrote a review of Rebel Moon was like, the movie, not so much, but the art of Rebel Moon book that's going to come out is going to be amazing.

As he said that, I was like, no, that's kind of right. I was like, it's like, because I don't even know how much where the crossover is of like Zack Snyder coming with this versus somebody sitting in an office doing sketches of concept art. And it's like, then that concept art just gets put in a digital format in the background of what they're doing. So it's like, it almost feels like there's some visual artist somewhere that was like given an assignment and he just nailed it and came up with this amazing visual of super space age looking stuff. And then they just sort of drop it as a screensaver behind whatever they're shooting in front of a green screen.

So you're so minimalizing that artist. I think the artist is amazing, but I feel like it's like what they're doing. I'm like, I don't know. I wonder really, I don't know how much is Zack Snyder personally delivering that versus somebody else is doing that work. And then he just sort of approves it and was like, yeah, this is my, my overall vision.

Right. You know, and then this all gets put in there in, between what he's sort of slapping together with the actors you know it's like it's all way more pieced together than we'll ever know as this astronomical sized entity you know so yeah i i don't know i wonder when we get into these like how much of it becomes all these other because as we said he's employed of hundreds and thousands of different artists that are involved in so many different ways and like how much is them coming up with these cool ideas versus the which is the same thing. Star Wars. It's like, look how many guys were putting together puppets. And George Lucas walked in the room and went, Oh, I like that one.

And that one, but we're not going to use them for here. We'll put them in a Admiral suit and we'll make them Admiral Ackbar, which is how that happened. He's like, Oh, that guy just looks cool. Let's put them in a uniform and we'll put them on the ship. And so like, It's the same thing.

George Lucas isn't the overall mastermind of everything ever created. No. He just built a great team and then went, yeah, I like that. And I like that. And like, so he's still the orchestrator of it.

Right. He curated it. Yeah. He's the curator of all these crazy things. So I don't know.

Like, again, I start to wonder how many other people almost get as much appreciation for creating this visual style as Zack Snyder, which is also true of Lucas. Right, right, right. Well, it's like Flash Gordon we were talking about. I mean, the visual stylist on Flash Gordon was basically the co-director. The one running the show, really.

The one really setting the beat, you know? So, yeah, yeah. I mean, I know he's got his groups behind him and everything, but we'll just say the product that this guy pulls together. from different things. I just think his visuals are at a, I like the way he shoots. I like the way his movies are cut and put together and how they look.

They got that great, you know, 16 depth, uh, layer of detail to me when I see him. And so, yeah, as much as I hate sucker punch and, you know, and, and it's not like I sit, but, and, It's not like I watch Zack Snyder movies all the time, but when I watch them, I go like, man, that guy really knows how to shoot a... Shoot, shoot. The guy knows how to shoot a movie. Especially action scenes.

It's one of those, and this I will give for a lot of... I will question this. On the one hand, you're going to like, I know what pays my bills. I know what my fans want, so I'm going to deliver it to them. I almost feel like if you're an artists like once they're on to you once they see what you're doing you should almost throw that out and i say that also like jj you know it's like jj we get the lens flares so as soon as people started making fun of that online he should have been like all right i'm done with those uh let's do something else now.

Now i'm the lens flare guy same thing as. Like zach snyder shows up i'm like really we're still gonna do slow-mo and speed ramping still like yeah i know people have been calling you out for decades yeah since you started 300 or possibly before like people have been making fun of that so it's like you're still gonna do that like i'm like i get it your bread's buttered right there i get it but at the same time i'm like as an artist when you're gonna be like all right they already know me for that i'm gonna do something else you know like i feel like you'd want to do something else well like he's perfected it like when you watch those scenes it's like yeah i get it like he's he knows how to like choreograph those action scenes and speed it up at just the right moment.

Slow motion of guns firing. Okay. All right. So as you described that, this is our, this is our primary difference of this movie. Cause you're going like yet another speed ramp.

Yeah. And another slow motion gun firing. And when I, when I think about that stuff, I go like, yes, yes. Speed ramping. Another speed ramping.

Slow motion gun firing. Yes. Yes! You know, so I mean, this is maybe the thing. So I'm sure Zack Snyder would love to make a movie without speed ramping, slow motion gun firing.

But then he thinks, but what would Johnny Conkle do? That's exactly it. What about the kids? What about the kids? Average guys show up in the seat.

Nobody goes to seats anymore. Cause they're sitting at home. But if they were gonna buy a ticket, would they buy a ticket without. My speed ramping? And so it was like, he's, he's almost like, I've decided I'm just going to do it.

I want to take out the speed ramp. And he's coming outside of his hotel. And, uh, you know, kid runs into him. He's like, yo, Zack Snyder, aren't ya? It was like, yeah, you got it right kid.

It was like, I can't wait for your next movie with the speed ramping. He's like, well, I've decided I'm going to do rom-coms from here on out. So tough luck, little Tommy. No, Zack Snyder has a heart. And he goes like, I can't disappoint little Tommy.

Who am I doing this for? Myself? Or am I doing it for the little Tommies out there? But there's, again, it's not like I am above a good action scene. I think my issue with it is with your slow-mo firing of guns.

And, like, we've seen that. But we've also seen it done with other movies that, like, if I'm going to watch a John Wick movie, like, I know that that's all fake to some extent. Like, Keanu's not going to get killed in the process. There's some wire work. There's some green screen.

There's some CGI in the play. But there's also some really well-trained action guys that are there choreographing it and actually flipping around and knocking guns out of each other's hands. And I feel like there's some real visceral stuff going on there. Whereas these, I feel like I'm playing a computer game. And that was a well-choreographed scene in my computer game.

But I don't feel a real-world connection to what's going on on the screen with these. Yes, I get you. Yeah, I feel like it's just a difference. I get you. That was my primary problem with the new Indiana Jones movie was that there were scenes where I was like, you know, this is a really amazing storyboard for when they actually go and make this movie.

But the answer to that one is, this poor guy's in his 80s, for God's sakes. He doesn't want to do all this. But we're going to do it anyway, because cash in a paycheck. Right, right, right. We've got to find something to justify it.

Keep this money train going. We got to justify our jobs. And nobody cares about movies anymore. So we've got to do anything. We'll bring back John Woo out of retirement.

We'll get Harrison Ford out of retirement. We got to get those asses in seats. Nobody gets to retire. Does anybody got any ideas on how to save movies? All right.

So Harrison Ford, come back. We have not sold a ticket. in two years so please um. All right fine if i have to right right can i do a scene without my shirt on because pretty ripped old dude i want to check out my chest that was the most disturbing part at the front of that movie when i'm like oh god oh god put a shirt on please jesus dude yeah like there's a reason i don't go out without my shirt on i expect the. Same from you harrison harrison let's know yourself know yourself I liked it because it goes like, look, he's old. He's old.

I mean, it. Leans into that. That is one of the things I liked about it. It's not like they're pretending like he's still a young man. Every step of the way.

Part four kind of was. I felt like part four, it was kind of side step. Well, that was the thing because it had been so long. They came back with four and he's like, look, I'm still here. I still got it.

Five is a different story. Five is like, oh, fuck, I hurt. Everything hurts. As he's walking around with her by the end there, he's like, Jesus, I don't need to be doing this anymore. He's basically saying, I just would like to die now, please.

I just want to go sit in an easy chair and not look for fucking treasures. And I just go relax. I kind of appreciated that aspect. Absolutely. Dude seems like he's in pain the whole movie and that's how it should be because.

He's an old man. People were lucky to walk upstairs at his age, for God's sake. For God's sake. Those moments when they leaned into that, that for me made that movie worth it. I think that's a nice grounding sort of a thing for this crazy old character that's been through a lot of adventures.

Because the problem with Indiana Jones' problem is that it's so concerned about driving tanks off buildings that You never really get to know Indiana Jones as a person with any depth. All right. And that may be blasphemy, too. But. That's only blasphemy because we're in the middle of this movie.

Right. Which is my main problem with this movie. Because I feel like I have moved in and lived with Indiana Jones compared to our characters in Rebel Moon. Okay, okay, okay, okay. If we're switching gears back to Rebel Moon, that's one of my main issues.

Okay, all right. Yes, do you... Well, because there are such... I would argue that these are archetypes And it relies on archetypes. They're caricatures.

They are like big, fully drawn caricatures because they're so leaning into the like specifics of like, look at Turok, the dinosaur hunter. Isn't he cool? Isn't it cool when he rides that Griffin? That's not at all like that scene in class of the Titans. And he jumps on Pegasus and they, no, it's not at all like that.

Listen, listen, Listen, that scene kicked ass. All right. And so when our anime chick shows up and she's got lightning swords and they're on fire and she fights a giant spider. Which again, like in concept, all of these things, I'm like, yes, on paper, this should be my favorite thing. And that part is badass.

It's a cool scene. But again, like all I know about her is she looks like a chick from anime and Even with the hat, the hat is totally anime. And I'm like, she's super cool visually. Look at her. Now what's going on behind those eyes?

No, no, no, no, no, no. I don't know. That's not, we barely know her damn name. This is not that movie. All right.

So the, the, the movie is a chicken pot pie. It's a chicken pot pie of cultural references. Okay. So you've got to have the expanded universe of Rebel Moon in your head when you go into Rebel Moon. And it's not like licensed expanded universe material.

It is every science fiction movie and anime and Luke Basin film that you've seen over the last 30, 40 years. That is your backstory to this movie, okay? I don't disagree with what you're presenting as this movie, but I kind of disagree that I don't think you should have to do homework before a film for it to play in front of you. Sure. Which, truthfully, they are coming up with a prequel comic book to tell you some of the backstory of characters that is not at all presented.

On the screen. I do not need to know their backstory. I have seen their backstory in the 20 other movies that have already done that story, all right? Oh, God. So I'm fine with... anime girl you find out like yeah she lost her kids I know I get it it's the morning mother alright let's.

Go next the best shortcut ever when we go to gladiator planet Yeah. You know, and we'll get, like, one of those guys from Gladiator. No, they really got the guy from Gladiator. Absolutely. And they're like, we don't even have to fill you in on his backstory.

It's in that other movie. Just go watch Gladiator. You are convincing me. And now he's broken down and dirty. That's right.

And we're going to bring him back to his full Gladiator glory when he gets some dirt washed off of him. You've seen his backstory. You know his backstory because you saw Gladiator. And you know the Han Solo guy. You know what they're doing here because you've seen Star Wars.

So that's like their version of the Han Solo scoundrel character. But they rolled him up with Lando. He's Han Solo, but what if he did betray them? That's what I'm saying. It was like, I'm Zack Snyder and I'm going to write what Han Solo would have really done.

Han shot first. He shot our friends in the back. It's like, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Shot his friends in the back. Well said, Brian.

So, yeah, yeah. So it's like, it's kind of, so in that way, it's like fan fiction. You know, uh, you know, it's like, you know, yeah, you know, Han Solo, he would have like gone and blown up a Death Star. He would have turned them in. Because he could have gotten money and all he cares about is money.

Yeah, because that's the Han Solo, the real story, not this Hollywood bullshit version of Han Solo. So, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's that. So you know that guy's story. You've seen, you know, uh you know luke basin movies before so you know you you realize like these these girls are you know killing machines you know and um uh so you know you so you're coming into that you know it's based kind of on the uh telling a star wars story you know there's going to be these things so it's just all this stuff is it's kind of assumes kind of like a tarantino movie i'm not saying it's doing it as consciously skillfully all right all right all right sure sure i did.

See if we're working in the other end of the uh we've done our heroes caricatureness sure i did see this i won't take credit for it i saw it online somebody said for those of you who thought the nazi symbolism in star wars was a little subtle for you they're just nazis they're just space nazis And like so much so, they don't even give him a space uniform. It's just a good old fashioned Nazi uniform. I was like, wow, he really didn't stray very far, did he? It's just the old uniform and he knocked a swastika off and put some other insignia on there and he's good to go. That's the Zack Snyder I know and love.

Everything underlined, everything highlighted, everything all caps. That is a very easy go-to, much like Back to Indiana Jones. Who's the ultimate bad guy? Who do you want to see get punched in the face in every movie? Nazis!

So, like, screw that guy. Throw him off there. Kill him. He's a space Nazi, and I hate him. Like, it is an easy go-to, I'll give you.

Yeah, I mean, sure, sure. Well, I mean, we can't pick on Rebel Moon for going too fascist and showing the bad guys. I mean, I mean. That's the only performance I'm on board with. So that, yeah, I'm not going to take any points off for that villain, because that's my one...

That's the one performance I think that works. Like, he is chewing the scenery, but he is, like, full-on villain mode, and he's knocking it out of the park on that front. So it's like... That guy does not phone it in. Like, no, he's the one character.

I'm like, yeah, I get it. I don't need it. I get it. I don't need a backstory on this guy. He's evil.

I buy it. So I'm okay with it. It's the rest of them. It's like, it's our, our hero that we spend two hours and 15 minutes with. And I'm like, So what's her deal again?

I'm like, dude, and we get tons of backstory. We get flashbacks and I'm still like, so wait, who is she? Why do I care about her again? Like, I don't understand how you can have as much time spent with her and flashbacks of backstory and all this other stuff pieced together. And then I get to the movie and I'm like, yeah, why do I still not care about this girl?

Like I should, she's a bad-ass fighter. I like when she kicks people's ass, but I'm like, I'm not invested in her in any other way. Oh, dude, I cared, man. I cared. I cared.

I wanted her to get revenge on her evil father and bring down the, the, the nation. And I was like, I was like, I'm on your side. You, you, uh, you were, you know, you saw your parents slaughtered, you know, you were thrown into this like military Academy turned into a, killing machine. You got some messed up issues and some trauma you're dealing with. And then you finally found a place where you belonged finally.

And you fit in. And you were finally knowing peace for a half a second. And it all got taken from you. And now you're like... And then you were tortured and beaten and shown what an evil regime you were working for.

And now you just want some... Let's just hide from it. Let's just... peace and quiet and everything like that, but they just won't let you have anything. You know, you finally get a scrap and now the machine is going to take it from you. And so, you know, the robots come or the bad guys come and she's just going like, I got nowhere else to run.

I'm in a back end corner. You didn't get all that? Once again, on paper, I like all of that. In that movie, I'm just sitting there like, so... She's our lead again, right?

I'm like, we've spent two hours and 15 minutes with her. I guess, I guess she's our lead. I don't know. Cause I've seen that girl and other stuff and like, she's good and other stuff, but like there's some disconnect with this movie. And that's why I'm like, is it the weird shooting style?

I don't know. Because I feel like there's a disconnect between her and the audience and her and the rest of the characters. And I'm like, I've, I've seen you in other stuff. You're, you're good. Like I'm totally in as like a character on, even like minimal screen time in like Atomic Blonde.

I went back and went, oh yeah, she's in that. She's not in it for long, but you really feel for her. And like, I don't, in the minute she's on screen in that, I feel for her so much more than two hours and 15 minutes in this movie. So again, I don't blame the actress. I don't, I'm trying to figure out why it's so disconnecting for me.

I mean, it could be, I mean, you may be picking up, you know, their, The fact that these things are all shot on green screen. But I mean, also, I mean, I didn't catch that, you know, look. Right. In honesty, I had to sit. I just took two attempts, you know, and everything.

I had to cut it in half, take a nap, you know, come back to it later, you know, and everything. So it wasn't like all sitting in one moment, you know, because I can see like if you have no connection to the characters, how this would be a slog. To get through because it is so long. And think we're only halfway into the nonsense story. Yeah.

Really? We don't even get started on the movie. Right. This is the putting the band together part. That's right.

And it's two hours and 15 minutes. Right. So we really haven't even started the adventure yet. We're just getting the band together so we can have the adventure. Yeah.

He read it out so much that like, it took this long just to get like, this is the end of the first act. We're two hours and 15 minutes. Okay. And so, and so that's also either that's you. I like the plot device of the seven samurai.

All right. Where you go to those different places. All right. And you see kooky, you know, very defined, you know, team members, you know? And so, I didn't mind that they stretched that out because I like that plot.

You know, it's kind of like the most dangerous game that we were talking about. You know, it's just like you like that story or you don't like that story. But if you like that story, hey, you'll see it, you know, dressed up in different ways, you know. And I didn't mind that it took all day and all night to get to, you know, the confrontation because I just kind of like how that. those, those things flow, you know, building the team. I like the idea of that.

Here's the thing. And this is when I ask on a regular basis on this show now, because we have all these new formats and mediums. So if that's the case, wouldn't this have worked better as a series? Like what if we devoted each episode to picking up one of these cast members and And then we could spend like 60 minutes or more, like getting into their backstory, getting attached to these characters. So that then when we get to the end of season one and teams together, you're like, man, this was an Epic journey.

And like, I'm so glad all these, like, then it sort of changes the pace so that you can really kind of not only have a good arc of these characters, but like spend a little time with each. Cause that's the thing. I feel like it's cool that we're doing the stops and picking up characters. I do like that as a gimmick. I've seen that in plenty of other movies where, And I think it's fun.

I like it more than most people, but I feel like we don't know anything about any of these people. So like we spend a lot of time, we're like spinning our wheels, like got to go here, got to go here. We're fetch questing these new people, but then like, we don't devote any time to them. So it's like by the time we get to the end, we're like, Hey, there's some strangers riding up on horses at the end. Good for us.

We, Got to the next level on this video game. Oh, no. I never felt like I was watching a video game. Now, some of these criticisms and I have felt like I've been watching video games, watching these types of movies. They do feel like the concept art got some animation behind it.

And, you know, we're basically watching. We're watching the concept art for when they actually make this movie, you know, and and so that's cool. I mean, sometimes that bothers me with some of the scenes in Indiana Jones. But for this one, it didn't. And maybe just my expectations are set at Zack Snyder levels.

That's very low for me. But it's higher for me. I go like, I want to see some cool stuff. And it's not going to be. It's not going to be cynical.

For me, it doesn't feel cynical like a Michael Bay movie. It feels more like really coming from a love of the genre conventions for Zack Snyder. I do always kind of put him in that same camp as Michael Bay, which I have a lot of bad things to say about him. Probably more so with Michael Bay. Definitely.

It's weird that he's had this weird resurgence and people totally defend him now as a filmmaker once he got away from Transformers. I've heard Ambulance is really good. I just haven't gotten to it. So I'm like, I will still try to go down that road with him, but I still feel like he's another one of those that's like so much flash on the screen and not really worried about substance. Right.

But then even if we're just like as a filmmaker, like the what was the Army of the Dead? Did you watch that one? Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, yes.

It's not good. OK, I said that's what I was going to say. Here's the damning version for me. I kind of liked it. Oh, did you?

I think it. Was really dumb. Yeah. But I was like it to me. That one worked as like a very cheesy zombie movie that like. again, it's very goal oriented.

We got to get here. We got to get this thing. So like a lot of it is just running and trying to get to the thing and having a bunch of zombies chasing you. It makes absolutely no sense within the like zombie mythology of like, why do they have a King? And like, why do they, some of them are super developed and some of them are just mindless drones.

Like why? Like, I'm fine with that. If you explain how it got like that. But like, we don't like, right. Right.

It sure does look cool. I was at least entertained by the dumb story arc that was got to get there, got to fight through zombies, blah, blah, whatever. Yeah. And again, I don't feel like we spent a lot of time on other bullshit. It was just like, here's our thing and we're running and gunning the whole movie and we get to the end and that's it.

That's right. So like, I don't like, again, as a filmmaker, like there's times when I can get on board with his, like, again, no offense, but I felt like that movie was dumb. And I was like, I can have dumb fun with him. Sure. Let's do this.

So I feel like it was that it's maybe kind of what makes me like sucker punch too. It's like, it's kind of dumb fun. It looks really pretty, but you know, doesn't necessarily make sense if you think about it too much. So I'm okay with those, but it's something about this one because it's trying to like, make a bigger comment, you know? It's like, it's trying to, she's the hero and these people are, have morals and like, they're going against these bad space Nazis.

And maybe it's because it's taking itself so seriously that I also want it to take the character development seriously and the story arc seriously. And then it just kind of phones it in on those. Right. Right. Sure.

No, that is not, it does not seem to be as concerned, but yeah, But I mean, you're right. I mean, a series version. And I'm sure there's going to be probably like a five hour Zack Snyder cut, you know, which probably will have some of that stuff. No, it. Yeah.

That's what I'm saying. We already know that's coming. Oh, OK. Kind of rubs me the wrong way, too. Oh, well, because like they're now they're manufacturing the thing that we got from Justice League.

Like we built up this whole audience. Oh, my gosh. We have to have the Snyder cut. So now it's like they're planning that. It's like Netflix got together and had a meeting of like, well, how can we do that again?

Like, how can we actively set that up? You know, that had to be a thought in their process because it's just money. It's just like, well, if we deliver them the Zack Snyder cut that they want, every one of those people out there clamoring on the internet for it last time is going to come back and sign up for Netflix. And then they're also spacing them way out over this next year so that you're going to have to keep on with Netflix or re-sign up again in a couple months. Ah, you're cynical.

I mean, it is a cynical take, but the business people that Netflix are, this is definitely a calculated move because they're staggering them out. They're doing this one as the PG-13 cut. He's going to release an R-rated... four hour, however long cut. That's the Zack Snyder director cut. Right.

After part two comes out. So you're going to have to watch part one, PG 13, watch part two, PG 13, the beginning of next year. Then he's going to drop the super cut of the first one. And then after that, the super long cut of the second, I'm like, this is now instead of just signing up to watch one, two hour movie. Now you've signed on to Netflix till the, towards the end of next year. no that is a huge business plan for them like we can't pretend like that's not part of their mo whether or not zach is guilty of it or not i don't know but i still find it like again very presumptuous much like the part one that like oh you're gonna come back for my director's cut and i know you are because I'm Zack Snyder.

And I'm like, that just seems like a dick move. I don't think, I disagree. I think they know they're making a big story. And I think there's going to be people who want to, you know, the long, you know, the, the, the boring, the boring, uh, cut, you know, with like, you know, uh, them talking about their childhoods and stuff like that. They don't talk about their childhoods.

Certainly not in this cut, they don't. No characters talk to each other. So they're going to be, they're going to have the longer version where they actually have dialogue. Dialogue. Dialogue version.

What a novel concept. Yeah, right, right, right. Exactly. Exactly. The first cut, that was just the stuff Zack Snyder made the movie.

That was the work print. I mean, we're just figuring this out. We'll get back to you later with the real movie. That's what it feels like. No, no, no.

This is like the writer's cut. He didn't have writers. What are you talking about? Yeah, well, so yeah. I mean, so yeah, it's a big flush together of all those things.

So yeah, I mean, I didn't feel the. I didn't feel the lack of backstory and character development because I see this as, you know, accumulation of the genre. All right. So it's kind of like all that, those little microscopic deatrice of, of ideas that go into making these movies. And you just know the genre.

So, you know who these people are. And so I didn't feel like that movie, this movie was like, lacking and do you want it to tell an original story well that's that's your personal that's really not what he does all right that's not what he does okay that's not zack snyder takes uh intellectual property yeah he usually takes other people's work right And he puts it through his Snyder gun. Snyder machine. His Zack gun. He Zackifies it.

He definitely Zackifies it. He Zackifies it. He Zacks all over it. Remember the oozing I said earlier? Right, right, right.

That's it. So, the thought of Zack Snyder taking something you love and Zacking all over it. If that is abhorrent to you, Rebel Moon may seem like a zero-sum bet game, all right? But if Zack Snyder zacking all over your childhood sounds like a nice way to spend an afternoon, maybe Rebel Moon works just fine. Yeah.

And again, we've addressed all these other characters that I'm upset with because they don't have any character development. But what's maybe the most annoying and I understand. Well, I don't really fully understand. I'm guessing I know why. The best thing about the movie character wise is Jimmy.

Jimmy, our robot. Yeah, that we meet at the beginning. And those scenes are great. And like, I really feel like, OK, we're on the. the, the precipice of this great thing of like, okay, we're working in some, like some, some robotic rules of like, what's he allowed to do? Does he live by a code?

Does he have, you know, I'm going to fight for what's right. Is he more concerned about humanity than himself or, you know, the, the machine that's running him? Like there's all these questions that are thrown out there. And then I'm like, we, I'm really liking what they're doing with this, the characterization, the voice work is obviously awesome. So it's like, we get to him and, And then we leave.

We ditch him really early on. And we don't come back to the last shot of the movie. And we're like, Oh, there's that guy I liked. And he's not in this movie at all. Listen, man, I understand.

They're telling a big story. It's a big story. It's a big story right now. Cause he's the best part of the movie. He's going to, he's, You're going to get more robot.

Anthony Hopkins robot, okay? That's the annoying part. I'm going to say it's signed on to Netflix so I can get my robot part that I want. I know. It's all part of their scam.

Come on. Come on. You know when they're not doing that, you'd keep it because you like the show Nailed It and Cake Masters and all that stuff. You're going to keep your Netflix, dude. I'm waiting for Family Switch 2.

Come on. When she gets back from soccer camp and then the whole family gets switched, but they reverse the genders this time. Oh, my God. There we go. Come on, McG.

Get on it. Come on. Or they got to switch families. There's got to be a trading places kind of thing. Yeah, you went to that version last time, so I think you need to start working on that screenplay.

I think we do. We'll get it to McG. We'll get this thing greenlit. No problem. And so what it is, it's the late 1960s.

And an average American family gets switched with a family in Cambodia. Alright, you just lost your audience. During the Pol Pot revolution. You lost your audience. Audience.

This was way better when it was just a modern day American family. So then we can have the old timey family being like, what's this cell phone? I don't understand. I'm a fish out of water. No, it's a rich, rich 19, early 70s family.

Kind of like the Jeffersons or something like that. They live on the top floor of a penthouse and they're really schmoozy. Deluxe apartment. Deluxe apartment in the sky. And then they wake up and they're in a rice field and they're being made to work under some glorified utopian society under Pol Pot.

Yeah. They have no idea how to plow. They have no idea how to, you know, survive in such a harsh environment under a fascist regime. I think yours has just become a much deeper art film that I don't think McG is qualified to direct. That is the best movie though.

That is the best movie. Start writing this. We're going to start. Start pitching it. We gotta find the right studio to back this.

I don't think Netflix is the place to take it. And we'll get Oliver Stone to direct it. It's an Oliver Stone critique of American foreign policy mixed with a zany Disney brain switch movie. Oh, Lord. I mean...

I've seen equally as ridiculous things that got made. So if you can put this on paper, we can start running it around to some studios. So good. It would be so good. What were we talking about?

Rebel moon? I think it was rebel moon, but of all our tangents, I don't know. That was a good Avenue. I like it. Yeah.

I like going, but that's appropriate of rebel moon, which is basically a hodgepodge, uh, uh, uh, call back to, uh, you know, an entire. Every sci-fi thing you've ever seen, ever. Seen, ever seen all kind of like boiled down into like this head cheese of, uh, of movie. It's like the head cheese movie. And, um, they don't, they don't cut out the, the, the prequels or the sequels or nothing.

They boil it out down. To this jelly. Why is it not? rebel moon colon head cheese cause it really needs to be forget this child of the sun or kid of the rebellion or whatever screw all those other titles skip your scar giver definitely go on with colon head cheese. Oh my god that's awesome Um, so yeah, yeah, they, uh, I think that's, that's, that's a necessity to enjoy that movie. Um, but, but so, so that's, that's where you fall.

I mean, either that necessity is a strength that you feel Zack Snyder has or a weakness. And, you know, people can complain about Tarantino being the same thing. You know, you kind of have to know those movies to get what he's trying to say here. I don't think you have to know him though. I think he's so good at it that he, if you'd never seen a movie before, you'd think he came up with all this on his own and it feels fleshed out enough that you follow the story.

No problem here. I think it's not like that. If you just went in cold, never seen a sci-fi thing in your life, you'd be me going, but why, who's that? Right. Why are they doing this?

So what's their motivation? Where are we going? Who are you fighting? None of that is really spelled out. So it's like you almost that's your crutch is like you have to have done your homework for the entirety of your life on every sci fi thing ever.

And then fill in the blanks yourself. I don't think again, as weird as Tarantino is, I don't feel like he does that. I think he creates a pretty well, especially as he's gone on, he's created more and more of a lived in world in his life. characters that like, I don't think you have to have that. That's just sort of a bonus. Like if you're also a seventies action dork, like he is like, you're like, Oh, that's from that thing.

And that's from that other thing. And he stole that line from that thing. Like, it's just like extra geek points if you know it. But if you don't, I think the movie works fun on its own just fine. So I, so I don't know.

I don't know if I would have enjoyed rebel moon as much as, Had I not had. If you came out of a vacuum. If I came out of a vacuum. If you came through the space vagina from the beginning of the movie. Is there any other way to describe that visual at the beginning as they come through the...

I guess we're going to call it a wormhole, but that's just a space vagina. I'm sorry. I don't know any other way to put it. Are you kidding? That is Zack Snyder 101.

Think back to Man of Steel when they put the... bad guys into basically H.R. Giger dildos and they shoot them up into a gapping orifice in the sky. That's really what Zack Snyder's dream is. He just wants to fly into a giant space vagina. Alright, ramp.

Speed ramp. Speed ramp. I want to get there really fast too. Bullets firing. And they go like, but Zack, Think about little Timmy.

And you're like, you're right. It's got a vagina. Just make it space looking. It won't actually be a physical vagina. It'll just kind of look like one.

Once again, this is the Tarantino thing. If you know what a vagina looks like, you get a little bonus points. Bonus points. But if not, it's just a wormhole through space. It's fine.

For the six-year-olds, it's just a wormhole in space. For the 30-year-olds, it's just a wormhole in space to shove your big old ship through. And they're going like, dang, I can't believe there's a vagina in the sky. But yeah, so that's just classic Zach doing his Zach thing, you know. Zach and all of his space vaginas.

I don't even know. I don't either. I don't even know. He definitely made, for me, the movie exactly that I wished Zack Snyder made a Star Wars movie. He made exactly that movie.

Maybe that's the problem. I don't think I ever had that wish. So I think I'm okay. I mean, it was pushing it with JJ, so. Yeah.

Zacking all over it's a whole other problem. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's exactly what I wanted, you know? And, you know, for it to be standing on its own as its own thing, you know, look, dude, it's... It's probably going to... just go and go with the comic books.

And so, I mean, I don't know, maybe it wouldn't, I don't know. Five hour cuts. And then eventually it might all. Make sense, but all just sort of, you're going to be like living in a world where rebel moon is going to be shoved in your face for the next, you know, 10 years. Or the next 15 minutes until people forget about it.

Like everything else that's on Netflix. Cause that was my thing. I was worried when you wanted to talk about this because it was like last week when I watched it and I'm like, shit, I don't think I remember. I've already forgotten so much of it. I had to go back and check.

And I was like, wait, that, that, yeah, I had to like go do research on it because I'd forgotten everything in a week. Oh, wow. Okay. So, so for me, this was like for all these like Netflix blockbusters. All right.

This was the first one I watched and I felt like I was watching a movie and not a Netflix movie. You know, this was the first one I was going like, Hey, this doesn't look like a, you know, a TV movie with a blockbuster budget. This actually looks like a movie to me, you know? And I would say, and again, We're just on different minds with this. I was going like, I wish I saw this in a theater, is what I said.

Which, again, it might at least visually deliver a little better if you got to go sit in a theater. Right. Story-wise, not so bad. Listen, yeah. Well, then, even just the arc of it, though, because then you're like, okay, this is part of a bigger story, but shouldn't it deliver a better...

Because that was, like, somebody, again, compared it to, like, we just got the part two in the Spider-Verse story. Right. Which I watched that recently, and I'm like, that tells a story. And, like, that, we. we spend so much time with those characters and like they introduce a million extra characters, but our base, several characters, like we spend a lot of time with. Yeah.

And like, you really are like invested in their lives. And this is a part two of an arc of three. So this is really like way more. The first one almost stands on its own. This is a empire Jedi story.

You know, it's like, it is full on leaves you at a cliffhanger, but I feel like that middle part works as its own movie. And I'm like this, didn't really take from that. You know, it's like that. Yeah. I don't know.

Yeah, no, I agree. I agree. Of comparing it to like a recent movie, but you could also do like the, the back to Tarantino. It's like he had a four hour action movie in the studio. I was like, no, cut that in half.

But if anything ever worked in separate movies, like that first one is it's in tone, completely in tone. It's like he almost shot them as different movies. It's true. And like, it's a totally different, thing than the second half versus you know you don't you almost don't even have to have the other half you can just be like oh that was a weird way to end it or that's a weird place that we came in on on the second right but like it still stands on its own as a movie more or less where this i'm like maybe two will work better as a solo movie because you're coming in and just kind of fill in the backstory real quick and get on with the rest of the story. But yeah, this one definitely like doesn't really deliver as its own movie.

It's just set up for the next movie. And so it's really weird that it, that doesn't bother me on this because, because it does bother me on other things. Like even like movies with like a lot, Where the art direction and everything overpowers everything else. I do get usually bored in movies. A lot of movies nowadays where there's just so many characters and you don't know why they matter or what their motivations are.

That irks me. Lack of characterization irks me. Or I can appreciate a movie to a certain level, but I can't really embrace it because... I was never emotionally invested. So, you know, that, that I can, I like the, I can enjoy like a scene taken out of context and go like, that's a really well put together scene.

But as a, as a movie where you have to sit there for 90 minutes to two hours, I need that story thorough line and that empathetic thorough line for me to bring me through these visuals. Cause otherwise it's just visuals. And I don't, I'm not there. So that is, I feel, I'm hearing that that is your problem with Rebel Moon. And that is a problem that I've had with other movies.

But I can't explain why it didn't bother me here. Because I think I just like Zack Snyder's coloring book. That is kind of what it is. We get to see him play and he's got very specific colors in his 64 pack. And like he comes to it and delivers that look that you always get from most of his movies.

I know. I know. As you were describing that, it does take me back to like... the other comparison I would always go to of a visual stylist with bad storytelling skills is your, your Transformers movies. You know, it's like Michael Bay, like had a very distinct visual style and he was all in on making those. And then I got there and I was like, I don't, I don't know who that is.

I'm lucky to pick out the dorky kid from the robots. Cause none of the robots have any characterization. And it's like, I don't even know what the plot is as we go on. What are they trying to do? Like exactly.

So uninvested that I don't. And I've like half of it's me not being invested, but also he's just not explaining it right. Right. For you to be along for the ride. It's just like, by the time you get there, you're like, Oh, that's what they were doing.

Okay. I'm like, you shouldn't be like that with a movie. So, like, I feel like that was a Michael Bay problem for years. Yes. Again, I haven't seen stuff recently, but I know definitely those first couple Transformers fall into that category.

Yeah, yeah. So, Michael Bay, I don't like, all right? And so, but Zack Snyder, I do like. They probably both had the same problems with... Uh, but I always know what's going on in a Zack Snyder movie.

I mean, yeah, I don't think he's on that. Yeah. And again, it's not fleshed out as much as it should be. Hopefully. Well, they both make maybe visually, you could say that they both make visually striking. emotionally shallow movie for years.

That's what I always said about Michael Bay. I was like, he really doesn't need to be a director. Like what if you brought him in as like your cinematographer or he was just like a special effects supervisor and like he could set up your action scene or he could set up a scene in the way that you want it lit digitally. Cause nothing's physically in any of their movies, but, But like, if they know that technical part of it so well that put them in charge of that, but we ended up making them in charge of the whole movie, which also means the story arc and they both sort of fumble it in different cases in different movies. But I don't know, like, would they work or would they work better as a team?

If it was like a Coen brothers, like I, and we brought in a really cool director to be the other half of this team. And you come up with the cool visuals and you set up the fight scenes and then I'll come in and make sure the story lines up. And like, so that maybe they need somebody else to like counterbalance, like they can bring the visuals, somebody else bring the story and like put together an awesome movie. But it's like, I think that's what it is. Is it like an ego thing that they would never do that because they want to be in charge of everything?

Well, you know, they don't usually are, you know, Zach will write one of his own movies, but it's usually, you know, they're working with these writers, but I think you've just, because they're visual, I'm not, I'm not talking, I don't, I don't, I don't like really grouping Bay with Snyder. Cause I mean, I, I really do like Snyder. I like Snyder more, but I still feel like, yeah, they do have some of the same problems. Yeah. But, but their visual Zach's visual style is so different. driving the ship that you have to have a writer of equal ego you know to uh or equal force to try to make a crack in that veneer you know then we get.

To like watchmen how about somebody like alan moore a level-headed filmmaker like alan. Moore i don't know if that's accurate either I would say Watchmen, though, may be one of his stronger movies because it does have that story behind it. It's got a very nailed down story that he has to follow to get, even if you change something really big by the end of it, like it still follows the story arc. Right. So again, that may be one of the easier ones to sort of follow because he has to, he's on train tracks.

Essentially he can do whatever he wants along the way, but he's still got to get to the same end result more or less. Yeah. Right. With, you know, that the comics set up for him. So, yeah.

Exactly. Again, like, he needs something to kind of restrict him and at least keep him on his path of, like, no, no, we're going here. Stay on the track. Stay on the track. Right.

Right. So, I mean, and the fact that it's so... His work has some kind of spirit of true appreciation for this material. He never... is like making fun of it or, uh, no, I think he's fully invested. He is a fan of it.

I think he is a, he has drank the Kool-Aid. I mean, I think he likes this shit and he's got the resources to do a version of it. And I go like, you know, I, I feel like it's coming from a real spot with him, you know? And so with Michael Bay, I feel like, he could be just making Pepsi commercials and be fine, you know? And it, it, except for the ego.

I think he likes, right. He's got such an ego that I think he likes making the big, crazy over the top movies because that's his MO. Like that makes him be the guy he wants to be. I don't think Snyder's as worried about that, but I think post DC universe, he's almost getting there because they, the fans built him up so much with the Snyder cut kind of thing and like creating his own universe kind of thing that I think before that he was a little more of like project driven, you know, I like this. I want to create this version of it on screen.

Whereas now I think he's had his ego built up so much by the fan base that like, it's hard for him to do that. Probably. He's gotta be like, well, I've got to make something bigger because that's what they expect of me. And I think he started, he came from a better place, I feel like, but now he may be ending up in Bay territory, unfortunately. Yeah.

Maybe a victim of his, a victim of his success there, you know, that, that, that, you know, that happens. I mean, you know, Lucas never went and made his little tone poems. I mean, thank God. You know? Hey, did you not see Red Tails?

Come on. You know? Right, right. Oh, wait, nobody saw Red Tails. Oh, my gosh.

Exactly. But, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, you become like... You become like, this is now how I pay my bills. So, you know...

So, there is like a. Zack Snyder may be trapped into... going in these territories, uh, because he's in this moving mechanism that isn't going to stop to let him reconsider. It is an industry. If nothing else, it is. An industry show business.

And they said, and, and, and, uh, Netflix got in cahoots with them and Netflix is, you know, trying to get subscribers. I mean, they're eventually going to, you know, everybody's going to have the subscription, you know, so whether you like it or not, whether you're not, there's, there is a ceiling for this, you know? So he gets, got to keep the people happy. So we don't have star Wars, but. We can get, we've killed that franchise now.

Yeah. Right. Right. Exactly. But Disney doesn't even have Star Wars.

Only Rey can save us. Only Rey can save us. She is the chosen one. Oh my gosh. It's done.

But. Well, we've lost all those big... We also don't have Marvel anymore, you know? It's like they've all kind of tanked lately to the point that I just saw the ad this morning for the Echo. And it's like now because...

I guess they've taken so much flack or people have lost so much faith in them. They're dropping the entire series at once. Instead of pacing it out once a week, like they've done for every other one like this, every Star Wars show, every Marvel show. Now, I guess they've taken so much heat for not delivering lately that they're like, what if we give them all to you one time? Because you guys complain because you have to wait a week.

So how about we like, they just feel so desperate. Please, please stay with us. I swear we're going to deliver something you like. I swear. It just feels so desperate now.

Oh my God. You're right. It's just almost like the customers, the, the, the people's need for, you know, a constant new product. It's like the Sarlacc pit, you know? And, and like, uh, like all these disney executives all these people in suits you know and everything are like just frantically trying to like.

My what can we do what can we do throw. Down the pipe of the sarlacc you know i mean like ah bring back this guy anything anything. What do you want i mean again if ever the audience is in charge what do you want from us we'll do it anything i mean and that's that to me, that's what killed star Wars. It's like, if you had a focused vision from one person, maybe it'd be okay. But it became, what do they want from us this time?

Like it just became readjusting for constant things to make other people happy. And like, I don't know. Once you get to like this movie, it's like, Zach seems like a focused guy that would be hand on the wheel. I'm going to drive this bus wherever the hell I want to take it. But I don't know.

Like, is he, because the fan base is so big now, he's just be like, I don't know. Just do what they expect them. No, no. I mean, I can see that. I can see how this, the industry has to be fed.

Zack Snyder has to deliver the Zack Snyder thing. So he's a trap frustrated artist who really just wants to make Mike Nichols type movies. Really focused art house stories is what I want to tell. But the machine's making him do it. But the sack pack won't let me.

So I think Zach is. No, but I think Zach. seriously wanted to make his version of star Wars and give it his thing and give it speed ramps and give it like a femme fatale character and give it, you know, uh, you know, and, you know, call up all these visual references that he loves and, and, um, you know, and basically make a, an animated version of heavy metal, you know, or something, you know. Which is awesome in its own right. Right. But even that is like, when I think back on that, I remember watching it recently.

Well, in recent years for the show. And I'm like, it looks amazing. And that's what I remember as a kid with those visuals and like, look, this is crazy. There's dragons and girls get naked. This is amazing.

And then like, I sat down and watched it and went, you know, there's not much story to the, I had that same issue. I was just like, this is visually amazing. And I liked the groundbreaking thing they were doing at the time. But when I watch it as a story, there's little there. It's like, there's certain ones that hold up better than others, but like, there's so much of it.

It's just like, look at all the cool things on the screen. Yeah. Don't look any further than that. Just look at all the cool things on the screen. Like, and so it's, it's a trap.

Like you get yourself into that. This isn't, this isn't, you're not incorrect with this. All right. I think for, just because of my personal taste, I allow Zack Snyder to beat me into submission. Yeah.

This is what you're into. This beats me into submission. Bring out the Gimp. His art direction beats me into submission until I become compliant to his movies. Where's the t-shirt?

I'm a Zack Snyder Gimp. They have to start selling those. I'll take it. Whatever he's willing to deal out to me, I'll take it. That's right.

Whatever horror characterization or backstory I put up with, because his art direction is so overpowering that I cannot resist the art direction in these movies. Oh, God. So, yeah, I know he hits. Me, but. He's still a good man.

He's still a good man. I'm going to stay with him because he's a good man. He takes care of me. Sometimes he brings me another movie and I'm like, I like it. I mean, I kind of, I tell him I like it.

And then I get some popcorn and then I wait and he gets me another movie. He showed me a pretty picture the other day and so I forgave him. Oh, so sad. So yeah, it's not, it's not. Okay.

So yeah, it's an unhealthy relationship with a filmmaker. Now that I say it out loud. Yeah. It's not, it's not what you really would have wanted for yourself. Oh man.

Yeah. I really didn't know how to process that. And this just, this is hurting my brain. All right. All right.

Yeah, I mean, you know... Yeah, I mean, I get it. I mean, I get it. But for whatever reason, it made more... I just go, like, I feel...

Now, this is it. I go, like... I mean, there were scenes where you're just, like, quoting the connecting scene from Star Wars, you know? Like, the scene in the bar, you know? And you're going, like.

It's a one-to-one comparison. I'm like, this is what he's trying to do here. Oh, yeah. And you're going, like, yeah, yeah, okay. I totally see it.

And for whatever reason... For me, it works in a chat GPT kind of way. Well, I think, and that's part of what's so frustrating is like, I see the parts of it. And I'm like, again, I like her as an actress. I think she's great in some of these action scenes.

So I'm like, in a better product, I would love to see her do this and her be the leading character. Yeah. And it just doesn't deliver on that. And that's, again, I think if it was without merit at all, I'd be like, fuck this movie and I'd move on. But like, I think because it has so much good stuff and it has, uh, a possibility that if it were like you reshuffle the deck and put it together so that like she comes out as, as a bad-ass character.

And like, we understand why everybody's doing everything and it has an arc within the single movie. And like, if you had all that come together, it would just nail it and like piece that together with his visuals and it would be great. So it's like, I think that's why I get so upset with it is like, it's not like it's terrible across the board. There's so many good things it has. but it just drops the ball on these others that I'm just like, but if you just did this and this, it would like, it would all come together. You know, it's like, that's why it's more frustrating.

I think. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I hear you.

I hear you. I mean, these are valid criticism. You're not wrong, but I, and I don't want to fault you for liking it. That's why I'm saying there's so many good things I see there that I also agree with you at points of like, yes, this looks amazing. And, this is cool.

So yeah, again, I wanted to hear what your thoughts. Are on it. Yeah. I got, I got seduced by a pretty face. What can I tell you?

I mean, it just really happens to the best. I mean, you know, it's kind of like you started talking to this, like, uh, this, this attractive lady at a party. And, you know, then you realize that she's just like a, a series of sound bites from, uh, you know, Fox news. And then you're like, Oh, Oh man, you know, I know exactly what you're going to say next, you know? And they don't disappoint.

See, I was going a different way. I thought you thought she was the girl next door and you were sappily falling in love with her. And then you get to the bed at the end of the night and she asked for your credit card. You're like, oh, I thought we were having a thing, but you're just here for the transaction. No, no, no.

That's not the Rebel Moon I fell in love with. Hook her with a heart of gold. No, no, no. No, that's Star Wars. Star Wars is the girl you loved in high school.

Oh, the overall Star Wars experience. Perhaps I will do it. Again, I was like, original trilogy. No, no. The overall Star Wars experience.

Okay, I'll give you that. Yes. The girl you fell in love with is... in high school and you. Come back to the reunion you come back you come back to town you come back to your old town and she's standing on the street corner you're like oh but I still want to love her now I can for a set amount of money. That's right exactly Exactly.

It's like, oh, hi, Timmy. I ain't seen you in a few years. And you're like, Star Wars? He's like, yeah. I was like, what happened to you?

Ah, times have been rough, Timmy. Times have been rough. Girls gotta do what a girl's gotta do. And you're like, but I still kinda love you. How much?

How much? You have all the Star Wars you could possibly ever want. And yet it's unfulfilling. It's like a Twilight Zone episode. All the time in the world, I broke my Star Wars glasses.

May you get the old gypsy curse. May you get everything you've ever wanted. You know, it's like, yeah, awesome. Anyway, well, the gypsy curse did bring me a Zachified Star Wars movie, which was pretty to look at at all times. And I didn't mind the fact that it looked like, you know, storyboards, animated storyboards like.

I did with any really nice animated storyboard. Really nice. You know, sometimes I can get on board if a movie works equally as well as a limited series of Trapper Keepers, you know, and I do love some. Good Trapper Keeper artwork. I got to say that quality stuff.

And if you saw any frame of this movie on a trapper keeper in 1983, that is absolutely the trapper keeper you would pick up. You're like, mom, that's it. We don't have to go down the aisle anymore. I found it. Grab a stack of loose leaf and some pencils.

We're heading out to the register. I found mine for the year. Which leads me to my bigger question of when are we going to get, I mean, we get these visual stylists that deliver us these movies. When are we getting a Lisa Frank movie? A Lisa Frank movie?

When do we get like a big epic tale told in the visual style of Lisa Frank? Oh my God. Okay, Brian, you just threw me. What is, I don't, who's the Lisa Frank style? Oh, it is made for Trapper Keeper.

She edges a little more towards the 90s kids. Okay, hold on one second. Let me look it up. Google Lisa Frank and you will completely understand. For those of you at home, you know the Lisa Franks.

If not, play the same game. Google it up and you'll be like, oh, what movie? Trapper Keeper. Okay. Oh, my God.

Exactly. Oh, my God. She is an epic visual storyteller that needs an epic movie to capture the visual style that is Lisa Frank. Oh, my God. Wow.

Exactly. That is melting my brain. She is an amazing artist. And exactly what we're talking about here. Yeah, she has captured still images that are phenomenal and mind-bending.

But of a singular style. I'm not saying I like this. But you kind of do, don't lie. No, there's something... there's something shocking about it, but of a unified vision that I'm glad I don't live in Lisa Frank's head. Oh, it would make your brain explode.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, what if, because again, we've seen something like a spider verse that like takes a visual, almost comic book style and like brings it to life and gives us a story. What if we have a character in this Lisa Frank world that's going on with, I mean, it's, it's damn near toontown from Roger Rabbit. I mean, but, think of the insanity that would be completely captured and immersed in this Lisa Frank style.

I kind of want to see it. I can't, it can't, it can never happen. It would melt my brain. It can never happen. It would be the end of humanity.

I mean, I'm okay with that. Humanity has really finished its cycle. It had a run. I'm not saying a good run. It had a run and it's kind of at the end.

If we're going out, we're going out Lisa Frank style. I mean, Lisa Frank style is a sign of the apocalypse. I mean, it is the sign of the end. Amen. Bring it unto us.

I mean, yeah. I mean, it's over. It's over. I mean, this is it. This is it.

This is it. I mean, you know, the TV show. where the singers are wearing costumes, and you. Can't see their face. Yeah, I like that shoe. That's pretty cool, too.

Yeah, well, you're a nihilist. I just watched that. John Schneider was the runner-up. He was in a giant donut costume, and it was the most horrifying thing I've ever seen. Listen, listen.

You are obviously Slim Pickens riding the atom bomb. Yeah. Because. that you get enjoyment from this is a sign of, uh, of fatalistic. Look, we can't fight in the war room. Let's just agree that we're at the end of days.

We have some different side issues with this movie. Okay. Okay. All right. Wrap up all of humanity.

It's the end of this episode. Okay. Sorry about that. I didn't mean to go. I didn't mean to go on the attack.

Oh, no. I mean, I've kind of attacked you the whole episode. So I certainly I'm willing to take my share. Sorry. It wasn't your fault.

It was the Lisa Frank images. Sorry. Because they're epic. Brought a darkness out. But before we wrap it up, I just have to say that in closing, Zack Snyder is... a good filmmaker, but he is an amazing trapper keeper designer.

I do not argue with that statement. That's the genius level of Lisa Frank. I don't know, but I think, I think they're like siblings from a different, you know, lost siblings. I mean, it's almost like, I mean, it's almost like, yeah, they, they came from the same factory, you know? Yeah.

Well, we've covered a lot of ground. We have. Oh, man, it's almost 2 o'clock. Okay, yeah. Wow.

Okay. Yes. I don't know that we've answered anyone's question, but we've covered a lot of ground. We've asked a lot of questions along the way. And we'll let you make up your mind at home of all the ills of humanity.

Yeah. For real. If the world is ready to end right now. And we'll go ahead and just call it and wrap it up. Okay.

Wrapping it up. That sounds good. Not just the episode, but all of humanity. Oh, okay. Okay.

Time to wrap it up. All right. All right. We're calling it. Maybe.

Wow. If not, if humanity comes back, we'll, we'll be back to do more episodes. Cause again, I like when we hang out virtually and have these discussions, even if we're on opposite ends of the spectrum. That, that makes the best. It makes it for a good conversation.

Absolutely. I'm glad we did not agree on rebel moon. That, that made sense. It definitely brought a whole different perspective to it. That's why as we got into it, I was like, well, now I definitely want to have this talk because if we both just agree on all the same points, then we're going nowhere.

So I like having some differing opinions and kind of expanding on all of these things and trying to find an answer that I don't know if we did, but you know. It was a fun ride along the way. And isn't that what you want from a Zack Snyder movie? That's right. That's right.

This is something that the world can learn from. That if two people can still see, disagree about Zack Snyder, but still, you know, have mutual respect for each other. Most definitely. I mean, that's, that's what. That's what's important, everybody.

I highly respect your opinion. Even after these things that you've said. After the love for Mickey and Zack Snyder. And Slave Girls from Infinity. I mean, it's just like, you know.

Well, that one's top quality. So that one, I... That's what saved you, really. Basically, we have established that I like Rebel Moon because basically I have bad taste. Oh, I certainly have been accused by myself of having bad taste.

So I will not sell you down the river on that one. I like a lot of questionable things. Nice. So we're both in that same boat and we'll stay there until next time. All right.

Sounds good. So we shall return somewhere down the line to have more of these ridiculous discussions. Thank you for coming along with me on this journey. And sure. If anyone else is still out there, thank you for listening.

Sorry. Anyway. You side bastards. Oh, it's your girlfriend from high school. She's made a return appearance.

Star Wars. No, what happened to you? Ah, yeah, times are rough. Get out your charge cards, you sorry bastards. It's time for another sequel trilogy.

Yeah, I'll do the robot for you. Boop-beep-boop-boop-bop. That's what you like, right? You like them robots. You want me to use the force?

That's a little extra, honey. Otherwise, that about does it. We're going to return next time. Same geek feed. Thanks for listening.

Thanks. Little devil, I. Can lie to it as little as I can I'm on the level, I like it better I break all the rules just to try to make her understand. I'm under the rage It's a crying shame Teachers seem all the same I'm. Not the one to blame.

I'm a better little devil. I get by doing as little as I can. I'm on the level. I like happy metal. I get away with as much as I can.

I break all the rules. Just don't take me for a fool. Don't try to keep me at the school. And I want to know where to go The look on my face is just for show My plans are messed up, didn't know education Just can't wait for permanent vacation Hey, I'm a rebel, a little devil I get by doing as. Little as I can I'm on the level, I like every vessel Break all the rules, just try to make them understand My mind's in a rage It's a crying shame We all got it the same I'm a rebel, little devil.

I get by doing as little as I can. I'm on the level, I like heavy metal. Break all the rules, just trying to make them understand. I'm a rebel, little devil. I get by doing as little as I can.

I'm on the level, I like heavy metal. I get away with as much. Yeah, I know. I know. I appreciate it.

These things are such a, uh, therapy, mental purge session and everything. It's, uh, it's kind of like dreaming, you know, like let you organize your thoughts and the subconscious. So that's what these, uh, these podcasts are like for me. They're just like, I feel. Like when I get worked up, I do a lot of yelling about movies.

Yeah. I don't know that anybody wants, but I do it anyway. It's like, this is the only way I had to get this out. I have to voice my dumb opinion. Not that anyone cares, but I have to get it out.

It's an exorcism of sorts. Yeah. It's eating me up inside. You gotta get it out of me. I can't walk around pretending to be a normal person all the time.

If I've got these nagging. Thoughts, certainly not. And I can't pretend when I'm overrun with these feelings inside. That's right. Spelled from me.

Right. Right. When I'm like, you know, coming to grips with my, uh, self-destructive relationship with Zack Snyder. I like, uh, sometimes i gotta just talk that stuff out you know. Yeah i think we had a real breakthrough today i think we did i think we did i think i know i've got um i gotta set up boundaries with sex i think we'll revisit that in your next session and uh right really made some breakthroughs today made.

Some breakthroughs today absolutely no that's good i feel like i've uh purged some thoughts there about rebel moon and. Uh spirits left the building. Yeah i got to complain about uh Christmas story of the musical to a wider audience other than my family you. Know which are sick of hearing your complaints I'm sure. I know they don't they're like dad why do you even care about this stuff.

Stop watching things exactly it looks like this stuff brings you no pleasure so I mean why do you keep doing it because he. Really loves me I keep coming back because he loves me. Do the speed ramp like you used to. All right, fine. You still love me.

You still love me. You brought your credit card, right? I'll renew my subscription right now, Mr. Snyder. You do that.

You're not going to get my director's cut without it. Oh man. They should, they should with the AI technology, they should have the Snyder cut of every movie. Well, I mean, they kind of do now like each of these, but that's what I thought was so ridiculous. Like we're planning the Snyder cut before we're even done with the first of this series of movies.

I was like, that is a weird calculated move that like it's different when it was justice league which like got screwed up a whole tragedy in his life a new director came in like at least had reasons in the real world that like okay he didn't get to make the thing he wanted to i understand like that made a little more sense for me but this one just seems like freaking frustrating money grab. Don't worry you're going to get a Snyder cut and you're like nobody asked it's. Different like the Justice League when like people were on the internet up in arms we gotta have it nobody's asking this time the movie hadn't even come out yet calm the fuck. Down I'm saying there should be a Snyder cut of like pretty woman you know that's what I'm saying you should be able to take any movie and hit Snyder cut that one I could.

Actually have You've heard the story of that one, right? Oh, yeah. Like the dark underbelly. Well, I mean, yeah, it's like beginning. It was 3000 because it was named after the money she was getting.

Right. Like the whole thing was like scripted as that. And it was nothing but him as a director going, nah, let's do this. And like, he's just winging it on the day of shooting and like using, yeah, like using cuts of stuff when they didn't even know that the camera's rolling. And like he pieced together a story that they didn't even know was there.

Yeah. I'm like, you know, I'd kind of like to see some of these behind the scene bits and pieces and like make your own pretty woman. Where's the edit yourself a pretty woman? Right, right. Well, man, maybe Gary Marshall's a genius.

I don't know. I think he kind of is. Yeah, he could be, man. In his own weird way. Yeah.

Gary Marshall, huh? Who knew? I need, like, a nap now. Yeah, man, totally. Totally, yeah.

This episode is a production of Movie Meltdown, produced and edited by The Oddity Studios, with opening music performed by The Empires. For more on how to sponsor or support the show, email producer at moviemeltdown.com. Talk hard! This program is a proud member of the Battleship Pretension Fleet.