Episode 3: Long, Long Time

We're media hell, every one, and welcome to of Mushrooms and Men, a Last of Us podcast. I am one of your hosts, Chris dash you the host of the Culture Cast, and I'm joined by my good friend. He is one of the hosts of Game of Bros. House of Dragons, another show where we talk about HBO t EV, your friend and mine your shar is that the moment liquor? I don't remember what that is because apparently this is a completely different show.

Now we're talking about the third episode and the Last of Us. Oh my god, it's well, it's it's it's quite possibly the gayest hour of television you've ever seen on a network show. The episode is titled Long, Long Time. It's written by Peter excuse me, It's directed by Peter Whore and written by Craig Mason, and it well, I would say it stars Pedro Pascal and Bella Ramsey, but not really. This episode is more focused on Nick Offerman and Murray Bartlett as Bill and Frank, two men who find one another on the edge of a pandemic, and we'll just go from there.

We're gonna be talking spoilers. I think if you've watched this show. If you're kind of in tune with the press surrounding the show, everybody has gone ape shit for this episode, like hardcore people love it. Yeah, so I'm going to kick it to you, Yeshar, What did you? What did you think of the episode?

First off, do you see White Lotus Season one? I have not, because Murray Bartlett is the absolute MVP of this And one thing I learned listen to an interview with Oh wait wait, you asked if I seen White Lotus. Yeah, I've seen one. I Kate watched one of the Kate watched the show, and I saw him in the show a little bit. Okay, He's just he's unbelievable, Like this dude should be in everything.

But I found out he was actually cast in this prior to Whiteloaded season one coming out, so it's just a happy coincidence. But like, yeah, anyways, I think we're gonna seeing a lot more of him because he's quite the performance. Not in this show though, not in this show, We're not gonna be seeing a single more moment of him. I met um. Yeah, So well, last week we talked about are we going to get a cold open every episode?

So we did it in this episode, but we did get a flash back, so like it the whole episode's kind of all open, frankly, like they've had a flashback in every episode now. So and we did see Anatworv's test center because we had said, you know, we it seemed unlikely we would ever see her again in the whole season. So it's nice, you know that she's still getting checks um. Yeah, so this probably diverges from the game more so than anything we've seen so far. So we have Bill, who's like a survivalist kind of prepper Second Amendment dude who probably doesn't have a lot of friends, and he's well equipped to survive a situation like this.

And actually, I have thought myself it would be good to know a couple of survivalists in case, shit it's the fan. You never know, Like I'm not being facetious, like I've generally had this thought. And so he's like living this life of solitude and I don't want to say happiness, but he's content and just watching zombies are infected to get killed. And you know it's a weird little Tom Zombies. Stop calling him zombies.

This isn't a zombie show. Okay, it looks like a zombie show. It sounds like a zombie show. Yeah, it's not a zombie show. We promise, signed Craig Mason and Neil Druckman, and so like, obviously he comes across this this stranger Murray Bartlett's Frank, and uh, you know, they fall in love and live together for a really long time, like sixteen years, right, yeah, because it's four years in and then it's it's four years in is when he meets him, and then it's another sixteen years because they're effectively The way the episode ends is like it's been like maybe a couple of weeks type thing, like they it's not made clear how long it takes for Joel and Bella to get to them and fine and effectively find them, but they're together a long time.

You know. This reminded me a lot of Game of Thrones once again, like we can't stay in one place too long, but here it works, I think to tell their story. But I'm gonna be honest with you, and this is my issue with this episode. This show hasn't earned this fucking episode yet. We're in the third episode of the show and this is where you're going like, come on, guys, you haven't earned this yet.

You watched West World, right, you watched through the second season to the show you know what episode this reminded me of. This reminded me of the Kicksuya episode from the second season, and that show, as much as you may not like it, it earned that episode. It's set up all the disparate pieces and brought them together here. I appreciate the story that they're telling, it's a great story, but why can't you make me care about Joel and Ellie as much as I cared about these two characters? Why?

I think it's it's hard for me to kind of separate that because the narrative so far that I've been watching I'm not super invested in. But I would have watched an entire show of just them, And that's a problem for a show that's expecting me to now continue on with my other characters that were in this episode for ten minutes total. Well, I think we have a couple of things that show opens with, like a discussion on tests, right, that's the discussion about tests, and Joel kind of does a little like a memorial towards her, and you could just look at it and say like, oh, what's this disparate thing? But it's actually very related because it's the story of a person who he thinks life is almost like just a thing to pass through.

Sure, and you realize it's like worth living for someone else. Yeah, Yeah, it's yeah, they're trying to Yeah, between Bill and I get it, And like Joe, show hasn't earned it yet. It hasn't earned this, It hasn't earned this emotional moment that it's trying to show us because we don't care about the characters from the show proper yet, Like what what have they given us to really hang a hat on? With Joel and Ellie? That's clear, we're clearly going there.

Their relationship is building. But I feel like you're showing me right here and now that you can write compelling characters. So why are you This should have been like end of the end of the first season, maybe even I was talking to Father Malone about this, maybe even the first episode of the second season. But it's just like you're you're really giving us a lot here to unpack, which I appreciate, but your main characters are sidelined already, and you've told a more compelling story without them. That is kind of a problem.

Even if we liked this episode, it is kind of a problem this early in the show. I don't know if I agree with you. I think that I mean, again, this is this is purely subjective mind. There's nothing again, this is a story. This is how I perceive a way to tell the story should go.

Because I would love to have written this episode, but I personally would not have put it third in your season because there needs to be time with Ellie and Joel to grow as characters. Because again, if it feels like they already know that we should know these characters, like we're video game players, and the problem is the assumption for this show is that most people aren't. Or who is the again, who is the audience? Because if you're a video game player, I don't need to flesh out Joel and Ellie because you know what their relationship is. But if I'm not, you really need to give us like a bunch of scenes with them getting to know one another.

And I know that it's going to do it over the entire run of the show, but they've just shown that they don't have to do that. They can just have two characters sitting in a scene together and give us beautifully written dialogue that gives us a window into these characters lives like we haven't gotten with anybody else. It's kind of a problems. It works as a good inflection point because right now we know Joel struggles to let people in, right right, oh yeah, and we as an audience need to understand how someone like that could be convinced to let someone in. And Bill and Joel are like one and the same, and we see that in the scene with him in tests and Frank, where Joel's basically like, I see what you're doing.

You're a protector like me, you know, that's really all we can do. But if you really want to protect, like you can't do it on your own. And Bill softens and sees like the love that Joel has her tests at that point, and that's kind of like after Joel's already failed his daughter, right right, And so then he has tests and then he I don't think he actually fails tests, but he believes he's failed her now and so all he has left is Ellie And from that point on, that's that's the inflection point. You can kind of see when he's reading the letter where he's like, shit, like this can't just be about me anymore, and I think we're now it's set the stage where we're going to see him sort of soften and become closer.

And to your point, if we have only seen Joel and Ellie interaction in the context that they had so far and this was like, let's say, the last episode of the season, I think I would agree with you. But because there's actually a lot of runway for the impact of this to play out, and it will play out, I could feel pretty completing, it will play out, it will pay off. And then separately and then he said like, well, why is this happening now? It is generally following like the story of the game, which someone could argue like, doesn't mean it has to, but about this point in the game they do interact with it is different. So they actually interact with Bill's I could think some game spoilers, so it's similar thing.

They go to find Bill, who works with Joel, and like the QZ, he and Frank were lovers. Like that's all true, you don't really meet Frank. Frank's actually dead. By the time you run into Bill, he's hung himself. Because it's been infected, and actually he's left Bill because Bill's too much like a prepper, like narrow rigid survivalists, and he basically resents him and says like I hate your guts and leads, and that's how he gets infected.

And so Bill doesn't die either, he's just completely alone. But he's completely alone by the end of your interaction with him, which you know some could argue is worse than death. And in the interview list with Neil Druckman, he said one of the reasons they thought this change made sense was in the context of a game, you couldn't just have like an hour cut scene of like Bill and Frank and like no action. You have to be doing something. You have to build around it, which is why goals like working with this.

But in the country of the show you have a little bit more flexibility, so you still have this like Bill and Frank dynamic, but we get to see a planned on screen. And I would argue, even though Bill dies in this version, he probably has a happier ending than he has in the game. I get to be the masters of their own fate, which you don't ever really see in this kind of media. In post apocalyptic media, most of the time, it's you know, We're sitting in a corner together and I've got a gun and I shoot you in the head and I shoot myself in the head and that's it. You know.

I know, Sean of the Dead trafficked in that up until the end of the movie where it kind of injector seats itself. All these post apocalyptic things tend to put characters in that scenario and then either they die or the last you know, the thirteenth hour, they get saved. I appreciate that this story goes no, we're gonna set the limits. The characters know their own limitations and what they want out of this relationship and who they expect to be and who they want to be. And I like that.

It only makes sense that Bill and Frank end up together in bed dead, like it just it makes sense because and they're old, and it felt like they're like like Frank says like Bill says like I'm old, Like like I lived a good life, like I don't need anything else, And I think I just I have a hard time with this episode because this show hasn't shown me that it deserves an episode this good yet. Do you know what I mean, do you know what I mean? Though, Like again, just take a step back from the show and assume that the show will not stumble and it will be a show worth watching for a second season. Not by the end of it us going, man, I will stick around because I've seen the first season, but that the show will land the first season.

It'll get to that point, just like it did with Game of Thrones, House of the Dragon, a show that neither one of us were fucking interested in watching. By the end of it, you and I were like, fuck, I am on board with whatever you throw at us second season. I'm not sure I'm gonna get there with this show the way it's going so far, because because I don't understand what the narrative is, and I think that goes to what you were talking about already. With the cold opens, the show feels like it wants to tell the whole story of the world and Joel and Ellie's place in it, which is fine, But Joel and Ellie just they haven't seemed as much of a presence in their own show yet as I was expecting them to be, given that they're literally the main characters of the narrative in the video game.

Does that make sense? And again, maybe this is just a third episode gripe, but I would have expected in this third episode we'd continue to see Joel and Ellie's character being built out, not them going, oh, we're taking a sidestep to these other characters that you've never met before. Because again, I appreciate that they had a good idea. I watched the after episode like you did, and Neil Druckman and Craig Mason were like, if you have a great idea, maybe you can pivot for an episode. And it's like, yeah, you can.

It's not your third episode, because again, this episode theoretically may have been sent to people watching it early, Like if they're watching this early and this is the first three episodes, by the end of this episode, you're just like, all right, so are they now getting to the adventure part of this show? But I guess is the show like it almost adds more questions for me for what the show is trying to be than it answers. But I also think, like, just go along for the ride, Like I feel like you want the answer now. No, I don't want. I want there to be coherent storytelling about the main characters of your show that you keep showing me are the main characters.

I would rather watch a Bill and Frank's show at this point, and that's after one episode. But it is coherent, Like you have a person who was closed off one and nothing opened up, had like a beautiful love story, right and then and then you have Joel, Who's I mean who Like it's clearly an analog to Bill, and he's a lot except the difference is Bill has never had anything Joel at one point did. And we actually did spend a lot of time with Joel and episode one, if you remember, he just was in a different time period. But all of the things that we saw in this episode were for our benefit, not for the characters. Joel doesn't know about Bill and Frank and any of the things that they've gone through, and he's read again, we're assuming that by Bella or Bella Ramsey, Jesus Christ, by Ellie reading that note to Joel, he'll go, oh my god, I've had this epiphany, and like that is how that works in the context of this kind of narrative, because yeah, it's a show, but in real life, in the thing they're trying to emulate, it's just it's a little hinky.

It just kind of is because like they could have shown us Joel and Ellie's relationship growing without having to give us an analog, Like what's the point of giving us an analog this early in the I get it, but like just show us them coming to that realization, not through the eyes of someone else who they're not seeing other than one time you Joel starts though, to get that messaging from Tess before she dies, right like the hoop, Like it's not like it comes from nowhere. And you do see Joel soft thing a little bit, like he's like explaining the history of the world to Ellie and about planes and talking, and he even wants to shield her from like the field of dead bodies, which is horrifying that we barely even get to sit with that in the show.

Yeah, is that from the game? Do they talk about the government just like killing healthy people, because like that feels that feels like a real drastic step that the show takes. I mean, it is basically what they do to his daughter right in the first episode, and that is from the game. So maybe it's not like as explicas they were just going down like like fields and fields of people honestly don't remember if that is. But and they kind of talk about He's like when Franklin Bill in that one sceneor haven't having a argument like do you think the government or na see, He's like, they are Nazis and then think frank says, well, now they are, but they weren't back then, and I thought that was like quite a funny dialogue.

But does say like, but they are Nazis, right, Like, yeah, now now he thought, but U and are we being led to believe again, not having not played a lot of the video game? Are we led to believe in the context of the narrative of the show that because in the in the game the government is what? What is the government by twenty twenty three? I mean it's it's kind of like Feder Like it's unclear if there's like a president or anything like that. I'm sure there's some sort of centralized power, but it does seem you have almost like these like the q zs are sort of self managed by parts of FEDER but Feder like is federal.

Um, they don't get into like super about the politics. Basically, it's like the tradeoff is you get some stability, safety, for like, you know, as long as occasionally oppressive regimes and like they will ice you if like you you know, give any lips, so um we make it. I'd be interesting if we get more of that, because we haven't got a lot of the fireflies either, and we gets around the fireflies in the game. So I wonder if you'll get to see a bit of that political context. I don't think it's necessary, but it could add a little bit of world building, like even if we've got like a cold open with Fedra, I think could be cool kind of see like what's going on in their mind, because as we saw with that original guard that Joel killed, like they're some of them are just kind of normal people trying to you know, survive and do their own thing too.

So it is interesting. I do wonder. I do well. I do wonder because again, I mean we have this in the show is taking its own direction obviously. I mean, like you said, with this episode, it has changed the narrative for one of the characters completely.

You know. The end point is this is similar. It's quite with Joel and Ellie like in a car, but like all the other stuff is completely concocted for the show, it's not in the game, even if it's kind of hinted at, right, it's hinted at in the game that they had Bill and Frank kind of life together. Blah blah blah blah blah. The show shows it, which I again I think is very smart.

But it's just gonna go down as a really good episode of this show. And I wonder if the show will be as good as this episode is. And that's always a concern because I mean, second episode, second season A. West World has one of the best episodes of television I've ever seen. And you don't like that season A west World and you don't like but you don't like that season of west World at all.

And see that's my point. It's like, how how do you reconcile the two. It's a great episode of a show, but the fucking show stinks. So what does that mean? Does the episode then suffer because of the context that it's placed in.

Could it have look at something like Giermo de Torres cabinet curiosities? Right, no through line between any of the episodes. It's a standalone episode, standalone narrative. You could have taken this script and done it. There just as easily, just as easily.

Again, it's just you're telling a story taking place during a zombie apocalypse. Doesn't have to be the Clickers, It don't even have. We never even see them interacting with the infected. They interact with humans more than they interact with the infected. You see a few of them, like hit is scrap but right, but like they're not They're not into the wall, they're not into their house.

They're not having a fight with the Clickers or the anything. So it could be in any post apocalyptic setting that you want. They're telling this beautiful love story, but it has no bearing on the narrative. And so yeah, you could take this episode. I mean, what what do Ellie and Joel get by the end of the end the end of episode?

A car? That's right, They get the car, and they get the guns and yeah, yeah, Ellie gets a gun, and then you know, Joel, I think it starts to click into place, like right that Ellie is his penance, his chance to like he's messed up not once but twice, his daughter Tess, and like if he's really a protector like Bill was. Bill was there to the end, gave everything and Joel saw himself and Bill just as much as Bill saw himself and Joel, like they had an uneasy friendship, kind of piss each other off, says he wasn't his friend. He's like, I don't like you, but you're my friend. Maybe.

Yeah, He's like, Okay, this is my chance to you know, do what Bill did, but I've not been able to successfully do myself. And yeah, I mean, what did you think about just like the way they showed them over the years, and like especially I think the coolest well is sad the transition between young Frank and old Bill and like how that changed after the last time Joe. So all of my kind of issues with the episode aside in the scheme of this narrative that they're telling what the show Nick Offerman and Murray Bartlett are fucking amazing they're turning in performance. Is that again like the show doesn't deserve in a way, It's like they don't even like they don't deserve to be associated with the show because of how good of the performances are, because of how good the writing is and how believable they are.

I mean, look, Nick Offerman, is this straight, straight, straight, straight, not gay at all? And you know what, I would not have known that it's beyond convincing. The two of them work together. It doesn't feel like a put on. It doesn't feel like this is somehow a forced gay relationship, or that there's a kind of disparity and power between the two.

There's none of that. It feels really like a genuine relationship. And I think for me, as someone who's gay, I really appreciate that this is on fucking network television. We're showing a genuine gay relationship between two male older men. When do you ever see that?

Tell me the last time you saw two gay men in their late fifties early sixties on screen together? Like not in like a season two. Okay, haven't watched it, so there you go. But my point is like most of the time it's often played for laughs or it's an older guy and a younger guy and oh and that weird. But like this is just it's played so straight as ironically, like no pun pun or pun intended.

But it's played so straight with just a sincerity to it that is shocking. It's so sincere, right, Like, do you think it's the most BPK you've ever seen? Beard per kiss so much chest hair and kissing and beards and so much beard. I like, I just love how uncomfortable nick Offerman looks, because it's it's, oh yeah, if you if you read anything, or listen to the audio podcast or do any amount of inquiring on the episode afterwards, nick Offerman was about as uncomfortable as humanly possible doing any of this. But I think it really adds to what we're seeing, which is a man not okay with himself learning to be okay with himself.

Like yeah, because Bill himself is like closeted and uncomfortable, and I guess I guess he's closeted. I mean, I don't not to say closet is like no one knew. It's like it seems like he's just never maybe even been with anyone or like never even ride like so who knows if it's uses like embarrassed about like being found out, or just he just didn't feel fun of putting himself out there because he's afraid of projection. And it was like counter to like he was clearly like a very type of person who probably wouldn't generally be LGBTQ friendly. They would not he might be a conservative homosexual, but he's not invited to the conservative table.

No, yeah, yeah, so which I think. I mean, again, they don't really you know what's more surprising, they don't really like beach over the head with that, which I felt like could have been like a beach over the head moment where it's like, oh, he's kind of like a prepper but he's also gay, Like isn't that weird? And it's like, I'm glad you're not bringing attention to it in a way that like it's just independent things. He's a prepper and he's also gay. Yeah, And he meets this guy and he falls in love with him and they have like a I mean, probably as good of a run as you can have in this environment.

Like honestly, I think they were living a normal life for fucking almost twenty years, like, and they did have friends like like Joel and Tested and like hang out, and I'm sure they there's other people in the years intervening too. And so it's like, yeah, we only saw like five moments of a twenty years span. You know, we have to as audience members, we fill in those gaps with all the things they must have been doing. And because like you said, by the end of it, by that moment where you've gone about as far forward as we can go, which is effectively catching up to the live narrative, we see Bill and Frank, and I guess Frank must have MS or Parkinson's or something, a terminal illness that cannot be fixed.

The creators said, like, it didn't really matter what it was. It doesn't matter. But yet when he says they couldn't solve it when we were on the beginning of the pandemic part of this, don't expect anybody's going to solve it now that they've got other things to worry about, you kind of get what they're getting at. I again, I appreciate where the narrative goes, because those last couple scenes together are not sad. I don't think the word I would use as sad.

They're kind of bittersweet. I mean again, you see these two men at the end of their lives kind of willingly accepting what's happening, and in a way, like we kind of said before, they get to be the architects of their own conclusion, which in these narratives that's not a thing. They're normally lying blooding dead or infected having to you know, he's not your husband anymore like that, you know, I mean, where where's that scene? Like I'm I'm glad we don't get it? Because fuck that, Like that shits so played out at this point, Like I don't want to character have to make a decision to kill his significant other.

Like that's not that's not pleasant for anyone to watch. I mean we we all sort of had it. When they're invaded by the raiders and Bill shot and he's like going through all his you know, his planning. He's like, oh, you know, here's where the keys are and here's the notes, and called Joel and in that moment says like, oh, he really does trust Joel, Like he thinks that's the person who can save Frank, and you know, he goes all these things and that's like where their roles are reversed and Frank is what who saves him and takes care of him and brings him back to life. And I think it kind of emphasizes how despite being very different kinds of people, they work.

Would they have worked outside of this context of like the world ending. Maybe maybe not, but I'd like to believe that it could have worked and like it was like it was just a real relationship, like the you know, he's like the little thing like Frank was just the light that Bill wasn't but right, it was just a joy to watch, like when he went to the when when the Bill takes Frank to the strawberry patch, that was a genuine that was a genuine moment. And then and it was at that point they've been together a while, right, like like they know each other, like it's that it's not a new love. It's like I know you, like I see you. There's like like we don't have to bullshit and you know, he's like how did you get the seas like a trade with Joey's like what did you trade?

He's like, okay, a little one, but it's just like what are those things where Earlier the rest of that would probably set off when he's like I get it, like I'll give up this thing to my partner because I know it makes him happy. And then he embraces with his partner and eats the strawberry and he's like, oh yeah, this is beautiful. That laughs that Nick Offerman gives felt it's it feels real, like that whole scene feels real. Anytime they're together, it feels real. And the casting, I mean, you gotta give credit to the casting.

I've seen Nick Offerman in all of nothing. You you have to understand that, no, oh, not a Parks and Rex fan. I don't like cringe humor. That stuff. Cringe humor is not funny to me.

I can't laugh at it because, like, it's just I've watched The Office and I know that that's not that's not something that motivates me in the world a comedy, and I know Parks and Rec is very much in the same vein. So let's let's cringe humor. But but definitely like but if you don't like The Office, you're probably not gonna like Parks. And also, I'm not going to watch something that has Chris Pratt in it, regardless of what era Chris Pratt it was, because he's just wo bics. Okay, all right, Chris, we get it.

You're literally a complete shill at this point. I mean, he is, he is. I'm not being mean. Why are you cast as? Mario pal Like, what do you bring to the table?

I loved? Let me check my notes Mario on the what was that Nintendo is that what it's called? Like, come on, bro, I mean, we're all gonna see it. I'm gonna see it, but not for Chris Pratt, And frankly, I'm gonna see it in spite of Chris Pratt being in it, which I feel like is most people speaking of video game adaptations, Why isn't he in this? Just walks on the screen and get sh okay bye.

There's another thing we haven't talked about. You like, we spent a lot of time with this, we still haven't really spent much time with Tommy as well, seen him at all the first episode well I've seen him at all. I mean we haven't seen him at all in the present pleasant yet I've narrated so interested to see his dynamic mesh with Joel and Ellie as well. But I think to your complaint or it's it's just it's just an observation. I think if it was the end of the season and we never got the time with Joel and Ellie, I think it would be valid.

I think because there's still a lot of time for it to breathe. I'm I hope I'm less compelled by it, but yet, But you understand where I'm coming from though, right, like, this is a big moment that the show is showing off, and it's a moment that the writers of the show worked really hard on and they want us to walk away from this episode with an emotional impact that stays with us, and I just feel like putting it here kind of gets in the way of the bigger story at hand, which is Joel and Ellie's relationship. Because again, if you've played the video game, you know what Joel is willing to sacrifice for Ellie. It's not a fucking surprise, and I would have liked the narrative to get there on its own without having it go well, there are other people who are doing it, so why don't you get it?

It's like, you know what I mean, Like we I don't know. Back to the point of Nick Offerman and Murray Bartlett. Nick Offerman, who I've seen in nothing, I don't know any of his comedic whatever stylings. He is fantastic in this episode. Yeah, it's just it believable beyond words.

And again as someone who's a heterosexual man playing a gay character who went out of his way to speak with other gay men about that relationship and what that would mean to see that on screen. I appreciate that because that shows a level of foresight on Nickofferman's part and most actors. I mean, I'm not saying most actors aren't going to do that, but that takes a special kind of actor to say I want to do this right because I know people are going to take an issue with it if it's not realistic. Doesn't have to be perfect, but it needs to be realistic. Yeah, And I mean Murray Bartlett is a gay man and he's one actual game in Yeah, he's Australian, pretty good American accent, very believable American accent.

And so I think, like I think Neil Druckman was saying, like he kind of helped guide some of the interactions and way they conversed and things like that, So it did feel It's felt very real, and I mean that's acting right, Like yeah, like Nickafferman was literally like playing someone as far removed from himself. Well, he's into carpentry and stuff, so maybe I mean, you know, he still likes to build things, so yeah, but yeah, so and I think in a show like this, in which we're probably going to have a lot of dark times. It's nice that these little moments of optimism and hope remind us that it's not just an oppressive moment to moment survival, Like there is something to live for and something more than just losing to the next day, right, And I think that's what And yes, it's maybe beating us a little heart of a head, but Joel's finding out that Ellie is that.

And even Ellie is treating Joel a little differently, Like she comes out and says, like, you know, the Test thing, it's it's almost like from a place of defensiveness, like, oh, I'm not going to apologize for test because you guys made the decisions. Don't blame me. But obviously she feels bad about that situation. Maybe she's even scared that Joel will resent her. But then she's also like becoming more comfortable when she starts making jokes with him and like picking at him and being an annoying kid.

And that's actually straight out of the game, where like Ellie is so curious because she's never seen these things before, and she's almost like, yeah, she's reckless because like, yeah, she does about the effective, but she's never really had to deal with them. And maybe she's been a little like, I don't know, more like Joel than she thinks, like when we see her in the arena where she Okay, what's up with that? What? What do you think? Why do you think there's a scene when Joel first goes into the warehouse however, to get his supplies Ellie.

Also, they didn't clear the rooms, which I found a little weird, like the first thing I would do is clear the rooms. But anyway, um, Ellie goes into this little section that Joel's not in and there's a like a scrap essentially infected, and she goes up to it, and you know, we've all been there with bugs and stuff, and that kind of curiously prods it and then she stabs it like very like viciously. And I was thinking, I was like, is this because I think there's two ways you could initially think of that. There's is it her almost doing out of compassion, like you know, this is a horrible existence, Um, I don't want to leave them here. But then I think you see her face and it's almost some more like anger and vindictive, Like it's anger.

I mean, it's it's it's anger. Yeah, it's a dark and I think it's something that's maybe supposed to show us that much like Joel has a darkness for different reasons, like they might be more similar in spirit than either of them would acknowledge. Whereas Ellie probably would never say she's as rough as Joel, and Joel would never say like he has like a soft discarc curiosity like Ellie does. But I think they both have a little bit of each other, much like Bill and Frank, right right. And I think that that scenes interesting with Ellie and the and the infected because but again, like like you just said, like to what end, right, I reserve judgment because again I don't know if they're going to expound upon it in further episodes and kind of give us because like you said, I mean we even though I've never played all the way through the game, I know the depths to which the narrative kind of delves into serious brutal consequences for your actions, Like I know some of the beats to the story, and the character of Ellie is not this precocious child in the second game at all.

Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I'm not sure if they're again I don't right right, an adult and like a full adult. Right in the second game, she's a She's not she's not this character anymore. So we don't know to what ends the show embraces that portion of the game and that are we seeing that already? I don't know.

Or is it just or is it just showing us that there's more to her than is externally, Like I think there's a few different ways. It doesn't necessarily have to be like she does this now she's just killing random people because she's secretly like a sociopath or whatever. Like, I don't think the show needs to do that. It could, that could be a route that goes, but I think it's I think it's more to just kind of fletch out the edges. But yeah, we'll see, we'll see if if this through line goes anywhere.

But it's interesting because again, like you said, I mean I could see it as oh, poor thing, you know, trapped, let me kill it, but not not not the not the role. Not That was not the sense I was getting from what Bella Ramsey was doing, not her facial expressions and like the way she was it was it wasn't like a fear or sadness. It was like I don't enjoy is maybe too far, but something closer to that. She was not not enjoying killing that thing, you know. And again, I mean, maybe it's just as much as like, I've spent the fourteen years of my life running away from these things and having my life and up ended by them, and now I get the opportunity to stab one.

But I don't think it was that either. Again, knowing what I know about the narrative and the where it goes in the video game, it would be safe to say this is a thing that they're going to have to address again. If not, you know, almost immediately, because who knows. Again, I know where the game goes. The show probably is going the same direction, but it has shown it's willing to just throw out what you think you know and replace it with something.

In this case of this episode a lot better because this is better than the than the video game's handling of Bill, right, It's better because it's more interesting. It's it's more interesting from like a viewer's perspective. I think give us that. I mean, you could have done the other way, and that would have been a lot more just kind of traditional action a zombie show. Yeah, and yeah, I don't see like even video game purists really having a problem with this, because, like I said, from like an overarching narrative standpoint, still gets them basically to the same place, like they're following in the same route.

It's just now you understand a bit more about other people in this world. And that's something you don't get in the game because when you're playing a video game, like you're the character, you're who you're playing this third point of view, either playing this Joel or Elliot, like I mean, because otherwise what are you doing? But a show gives you that flexibility, and I do like that they're taking full advantage of it. I'm interesting to see if they're going to do more of these kind of side stories or fleshing out a characters whom we haven't spent a lot of time with. One comes to mind that I'm now that I'm thinking like a potential antagonist later on.

I'm thinking I wouldn't be surprised if we get some like flashback time with them, and I think I think you'll enjoy it if it's what I'm If what I'm thinking is going to happen, I don't want to get to spoilers just because once again, like since I think they're gonna fall the natter pretty closely. Yeah, anything I say is essentially a spoiler that happened. Yeah, but there's there's there's a lot of interesting characters upcoming well, and even like you said, I mean this episode, they effectively get to the same place. Like Bill, the character is in a different place, but you don't come back to Bill in the video game, so he could be him being alive or dead is kind of unimportant to you as a game player, and realistically as a viewer were I might come back to this, but who gives a shit?

Like what what is the point of coming back here? You've said everything I feel like you needed to say or wanted to say, and you left it on a pretty poignant moment of looking out the window, which is effectively just them showing the video games opening title screen. I'm sure you realize that, but that's all that I mean, like it, but it works here, and like what else is there to say there? And even honestly, even in a lot of ways, like having Ellie find that note feels like maybe gilding the lily a little bit, just a just a little bit you know what I mean. Like, I feel like the way this episode ends and the fact that we come back to Joel and Ellie and they go into their house and they see all that stuff, Like, yeah, I get why it's there, I get why we needed it, But like if it had just been that final shot and that's it, and then the next episode is Bella Ella, Jesus Christ, Ellie and Joel coming to their house and seeing, yeah, it would have been, it would have worked just as well.

Like this could have been self contained to its own episode entirely. Even so, again, like I think my only concern is this, this episode gets the show to a height that is here, and if the next episode ain't here and the next episode ain't here, they've hit their peak on episode three. I just don't think that's a good idea as a show runner. If I were running a show, I wouldn't shoot my load the third episode. That's all I'm gonna say.

So unless they unless, unless they've got something, it's too good, it might well again, it might be, is what I'm saying. It might be too good too early. Would you say it's too fast, too curious, No, it's too slow, too curious. Oh, well and again, but you understand what I'm saying right like you, you get it again. It's a concern if it doesn't end up being that way by the end of the season, I'll go, oh, the season kind of rose to the level of that third episode, But if it never gets back there, we'll be talking about how good this episode was and how kind of middle of the road everything else was.

And I just don't know if you want to put yourself in that position in your third episode. I think it's valid. I think any creator wants to wants to put out something that's maintains a level of quality throughout. And yes, this is about as high a watermark as you can get. My concern is if they drop down way below even where the first or second episode was.

I don't know. I'd like to believe Craig Mason and Neil Druckman have the show in good hands. I've seen Chernobyl. It worked, but it was also a limited series. You know, it had a definitive end.

This show just got renewed for a second season. Surprisingly, said no one like, oh, it got renewed for a second season. Yes it did. I'm surprised it took to the third episode to get there like yeah, I was like, yes, yes, it got a second season. Frankly, I'm surprised that this show didn't have like with the Lord of the Rings show, they weren't just like it's three seasons and that's oh yeah, Like I think I do think the one difference is like even the Last Us is a huge fan following, Like I mean, Lord the Rings is a proven on screen thing, whereas there is a Last of Us has a proven on screen thing because it's literally telling the video game without their activity, like the story like the Last of Us is why people played the game, right, I'm saying, like conceptually did talk about like video games?

Sure, yeah, yeah. I think that was the only thing stopping them from just saying like like backed up the brain struck of money and saying, hey Petro Pascal, you know, um, can you take and do you want more money? Do you want to take a break from Grogu to be with other Grogu number two? I think I can do that, Um, but uh well I have to be on screen, like actually on screen or will it just be me in armor? He's like, let me talk to my agent, um, but his an agent who's cashing checks on his behalf when he's just in a in a studio recording the voice for the Mandalorian and not I again, we always talking.

I don't have a clue, he said, voice notes on What'sapp? Like, can you we do that take? He's on golf, He's like, this is the fifth you know, Well, can't you guys do anything in post to fix this line? I mean yeah, I mean you know, bill us a signal, not What'sapp? But yeah, yeah, bro, he's that's a joke that like one person, if I'm lucky, is going to unders I use signal.

I use signal for one thing, and one thing only, buying weed. W Did you think I like it's a It's it's encrypted, end to end. So yeah, no, I got that. I understood that. I was.

I thought we were getting into like the prologue of Taken to be honest. Oh no, god no, it's not that exciting. It's like you have a product that I want and I don't want to text you through Apple about it. Like all right, I used signal for like my one friend who refuses to use What'sapp. That's your one prepper friend.

Yeah, it's not really a Prepperatious is like very like I don't want my data, and I'm like, all right, bro, this is inconvenient for me, but I'll do it. Hey, I guess as a fan of the video game, they finally confirmed where the infection came from. Oh yeah, yeah, I guess. I mean again, people will say, oh, that's just a theory, but that's the show runners telling you what happened. Even if it's like I don't know what happened, the fact that they wrote that down and they're saying it, having a character say it more or less means that's what it is.

I no, no, I think I take that at face out. I mean you can say, like, okay, was an intentional point. It's not a character saying it. It's a it's a screenwriter writing it, Joel. But I know, but like again, when you talk about like any of these like narratives where it's like where did the thing come from?

If they mentioned where it might have come from, I use that as essentially you're telling me it's where it came from in no uncertain terms, Like and the one thing you could say about the Last of Us, they're not really like it's not Westworld it's not like, oh, here's what you think it is and we're subverting all right, this is like pretty one for one. I mean they said maybe expectations as far as like emotive expectations, like emotional connection. But it's not about like, oh, this is about this. Oh just kidding, it's aliens. Oh just kidding, it's a dream Like that's not it's it's this isn't a what's the word mystery box show.

It's not a JJ Abrams producing Yeah. Yeah, yeah, So like they pretty much tell you what's up. I mean, you can maybe have some debates about whether it was an intentional or unintentional infestation of the food spot. It sounds like it's probably like accidental to the like to the first episode and said, right, and then they evolved because if the temperatures got too hot, you know, sounds like a serious of unfortunate events. Really yeah, and then everybody started eating pancakes like yeah, so he is.

So in the first episode of the show, we see Joel like almost not eat four or five times. You remember that where he's like sitting and about to eat and then he like doesn't eat. Oh no, I don't remember, but but I wonder if that is like a callback, Like I mean, it has to be, because they're like there's a bunch of times in the first episode where his daughter is like, hey, Dad, like you didn't get the cake, and it's like, what is this all it's And now looking back, it's gotta be intentional, like they're saying like he didn't eat well, I mean again, like Joel says it as much in the episode, He's like people started eating the food on Thursday, and by Friday people were fucking infected, and by Monday it was all game over.

Yeah, because there's three days, Like that's three fucking days, like the bytes for a wild So I guess. So it's I'm glad that the show kind of finally explains it. And I also like, how kind of just I'm not generic, but just like how like uninteresting It frankly is like it's not interesting, like and the grains were infected, like and you know what, if this were to happen that way, that's probably the way it would happen. Just something innocuous. I like it because it's like it's simple but satisfying.

You're like, oh no, it makes sense, like checks out and wasn't Aliens, wasn't a Colm that coming to earth. It was we did this to ourselves ultimately, like that John Hannah cold open kind of says as much. I mean, that's the smartest thing about this show's cold open is the show's cold open essentially says there was never anything anyone could do about this to begin with, because you were unwilling to change one minor thing, and now everything is changed because of it. And you know, again that Abe is a little too on the nose for our post COVID times or current COVID times. But the fact that they continue the through line with and it was just in the food and nobody knew anything about it, Like, I appreciate that because again, the game never says the game just kind of it's not important to the game.

Not that I'm sure it's important here either. So yeah, So I hope that this is the high watermark that the rest of the show this season holds itself to. I won't be surprised if it doesn't. But rarely does an episode of a show come along like this where it stands out as its own Without the show, you could watch this entire Bill and Frank thing and not need to watch the show at all, So that's a success in my book. What about you?

Yeah, no, amazing episode. Again, we'll see if the show stands up in condition. Yeah yeah. If that's all it needed to be, it succeeded. I hope that the show keeps keeps up the momentum because it's a pretty big shot in the arm.

So so next time you hear from us, we're gonna be talking about the fourth episode of the first season, the last of Us. That episode is titled please Hold My Hand, So who knows clearly getting into some raiders more human beings being nasty to people. So until then you can find you shar and I overt weirdingwaymedia dot com, which is the place that we post all of these shows and everything else that we work on. So that's where you can go as for this show, like rate and review on iTunes or wherever you get the show, and we'll catch you on the next episode.