Episode 6: Kin

Hello everyone, and welcome to of Mushrooms and Men, a last of this podcast. I am one of your hosts, Chris, and I'm joined by my good friend. He's a clicker who clickly clacks all the way down the track, but not in this episode, because there's is this a zombie show? You're a friend of mine? Hey, Chris, I love zombies.

And how many of them they were in this episode? None? None? Zombies? They don't call them.

First of all, we don't call them zombies. We call them the unvaccinated. Sorry, they're trying to all now I get all. The subtext is happening in real time on this episode of motions, we're gonna be talking about, well, we're gonna be talking about the sixth episode of the Last of Us. HBO's latest add of tape is something that they didn't own to begin with.

That episode is titled Kid. The episode aired February nineteen, twenty twenty three. It is directed by Jezmila Zambinich, and it stars once again Pedro Pascal and Bella Ramsay along with us some new faces. We get to see Gabriel Luna. Finally, we get to see Elain Miles Graham, Green and Routino Wesley as well rounds out this episode's cast, and we finally get to see what Joel's brother has been up to since the last time we saw him, which was literally the first episode of this show, about halfway through the first Stepode.

I guess two thirds of the way through the first episode of the show was the last time we got to see mister Gabriel Luna. But Joel and Ellie have finally made it to Wyoming and we're about to find out a whole lot about what's been going on with his brother, the fireflies and everything else. So y share, tell me what you thought of the latest episode of The Last of Us. I mean, it's just like really good and it's consistent and the performances are good, and it's not that different from the game, which I know I keep saying, but that doesn't matter because it just has such like a good, strong foundation and every time they do something that deviates or just adds a little bit of color to the world, like I really enjoy it.

And it's like to the point that openings even Gray Green and I forgot the actress's name, but like just add a little color to the world and like also we get I like the emphasis that you know, people can live in this world and it's not all just dour. I mean, it sucks, but it's not just momentously like moment by moment, every moment is just absolute shit, misery, porn type of like nihilistic existence that you've seen a lot of other types of content and not The Last of Us hasn't had pockets of that. But it's nice, but you get something a little different. So yeah, I mean it's it's a great show, and I think the Joel and Elli dynamics really coming along a lot more and we've been hitting on that last few episodes.

But I really don't have any plants. I mean, maybe you want a bit more like action with the clickers, but I actually don't. Ever, I didn't find myself thinking about them once outside of just the context of, you know what, the environment of the show was well, And what's interesting about that as as someone who again is playing the show or playing the game while watching the show, it's feeling more and more like the game parts of the game where you're actually doing things like fighting infected in people like now, like the quality of that in the game is obviously really good. It's really well done, right, Like The Last of Us is a really good third person action adventure game. I think we would both agree.

It's funny how much of all of that is just trappings in between things going on. It has never felt so much like that before. But in a way that I don't mind that. It's just like, oh, by the way, if you were playing this, there would be things that are happening that you're not getting to do, like seeing them fighting infected, seeing them fighting more clickers, Like you have to assume that they've been fighting infected on their way to wyoming this hole. Yeah, yeah, for sure, and maybe even bandits.

But like, I mean, it's it hasn't been. There's no way it had just been completely smooth sailing. Like we see Ellie now Joe lets her carry a gun, right, that's like a big leap in the trust since because the episode opens with we see Sam and Henry's death, quite impactful, let's do this please. I Actually at first I was like, oh, that's successive, but then I was like, actually it helped with the three months later to give some context where we saw them last, which is where they are now. Actually I found that quite impactful.

I felt like the last episodes ending kind of undercut it though the way the last episode ended, where we have them actually on the other side of Sam and Henry and burying them, like in a lot of ways, I think it might have worked better if that had been the opening of this episode, so we could see kind of the aftermath and the last episode, I think it would have been more successful if it had just cut with Henry killing himself and then you see it a little bit of the aftermath here, which allows you to give that moment a little bit more time to breathe, because it's jarring to have it open with a flashback and that's like three months later, It's like whoa show? Like, I think it would have worked narratively a little bit better.

I mean, minor quibble, but just in the terms of if you're going to show us this again, it's a thing that again, I'm not sure either one of us wanted to see again, but yet here we are and they're showing it to us again. Like, I think it would have worked better if instead of showing it to us again, it would have just put it put that conclusion of everything where they're burying them and we see the little you know, the payoff of the little thing that Ellie's been writing on. I think it would have worked a little bit better if that had been the beginning of this episode. And then we have them walking off because he you know, he saw her walking off at the end of last episode, and it's this moment with Pedro Pascal kind of staring at her.

I think it would have worked better if he had followed her. And then it's three months later, and then it's this because again, like it's it's so abrupt the way this episode opens, and it's really jarring, like and it was intended that way clearly, but I just think narratively, I don't need to be bombarded with people killing themselves back to back times. Like it's a little it is just a little much. But that being said, like this episode's fine, it's frue. I mean, it's a lot of setup, but it's important, like character work.

Right, It's a very slow episode of this show in a way that is appreciated given that the last two game in three episodes have been rather go go, go, go, go, go, go go go, And we're finally okay, we're able to take a breath they're able to eat a hot meal for the first time and forever. They're able to take a shower and all that. Like best we can tell, a lot of those things were not able to be achieved by them in the last three months, so it's nice to see them kind of get a moment of reprieve. Obviously by the end of the episode that's not the case. But I liked all the stuff in Jackson.

It works. It doesn't feel unrealistic, you know, because again this show is hewing close to realism, which I appreciate because again, I mean, that's the thing I always think about with a zombie apocalypse. It's like all the things that would have to go bad would have to go bad so badly that we would all be gone, like pockets of people finding a way to survive, people out in the middle of nowhere, not ever being bothered by zombies anymore than they're being bothered by real people right now. Like you know, like I think a zombie apocalypse maybe sounds more interesting than it would actually be, because it would be more just like it isn't in the Last of Us, where it's like just don't go to the cities like life has been changed in this world obviously in a substantive way.

But I mean, if you look at what's going on in Jackson in this show, it's not different from probably the way people were living in Jackson before the fall happened. Yeah, I mean it was interesting because we saw this like other way to live, right, That's what Jackson showed us, an actual sustainable way of living in this world past the fall of the Fall of the cities. Again not really humanity. There are so many people still alive, like like we saw in the opening scene, like the best we've seen, like like for an entire size is essentially like the Boston Fedro, which wasn't the best but it was okay, clearly better than most other ones, though better than KC. But yeah, it was cool.

Like we see Joel finally reunite with Tommy Diego Luna, uh, you know, was really effective as like a like sort of a bifurcation, like Joel went this way and Tommy went the other way, where he like is hopeful and optimistic and looking for purpose, whereas Joel is just trudging along actually like actively trying to avoid any attachments um and he lives in the society and the whole communist commune part was quite funny. Uh, Joel, can't let it go brother, Like, dude, it doesn't matter anymore. It cracked me up when when Ellie's like can I have some of that liquor and Joel's like no, It's like dude, what who cares? Like like why what? Like?

What? What? Fucking I mean? You don't want? You don't what?

You don't want a drunk like fourteen year old Like yeah, but like giving someone alcohol to warm them up as a thing, and it's the literal post apocalyptic wasteland. Like I appreciated that little moment because again, like it's it's a moment that makes I'm not chiding it for it not making sense. I'm appreciative that the writers of the show are giving us a again continuing to reinforce that Joel is quickly becoming her father, because that's the response her father would have, not a you know, not just some adult that doesn't know her. Yeah, you know that's good. Yeah, I mean they're really like Joel is.

That's why like the opening scene as let's go back there, Joe, Ellie's holding a gun Joel trust or even the way she Ellie talks. She's like a mini Joel, like she's she's essentially taken on his characteristics over these last three months, and he's softened a little bit to her as well. And as Joel leaves that he has I think people think it's a heart tack, but it's like it was clearly a panic attack because he's feeling like overwhelmed at the thought of fucking up and losing her and messing up and making a mistake, and like it hasn't been all peaches and cream. Yeah, it's like that is the phrase, as weird as it is. Yeah, and you gotta say peaches and what were you gonna say?

I wanted to know whatever the other word is. You were kicking peaches and kang peaches and p It's not all peaches and pea out here, but you know, and then they go to Jackson and that dog like could have just ended it there, and they just got lucky that, you know, the virus doesn't smell anymore, and Joel once again kind of feels like, you know, I could have let her down, even I mean, he don't think he could have really done right. But so it all culminates that when he's in this town that's functional and stuff, and he's like Tommy is in some way stronger than I am. You know, I don't know if I can see this like if I fail this again, like if I fail my daughter again, like I just have, I can't continue existing.

Whereas like you know, if Tommy loses her, it would suck, but like Tommy would be fine. I mean it's a bit selfish because Tommy does have like a family and now like a future child and stuff. But like you can, they're they're really emphasizing that there's attached with the Joel is made with Ellie's almost almost like paralyzing him. I don't know, what did you think about? I felt like they introduced that too late.

I feel like this should have been introduced one or two episodes earlier because it it I mean, you've you got to agree. It does come out of nowhere all of a sudden. Joel's three us right, Well, I know, but that feels that feels like a cop out. Now if that's the you know what I again, like all I'm saying is give us up more of an idea that this is going to be a thing. And again, if he's if Joel is is externalizing it through dialogue.

That's fine, but now it's like a it's an internalization of his of his self, and I just it works, sure, but I wish they had kind of given us an idea that this was going to be a thing, or given us like a moment of this before to see it like kind of ramping up, less like oh, it just happened, but more it's ramping up because we only have three episodes left at this point. I think that Henry sam was like the real turning. I mean it was already getting there, right, sure, I mean again, yeah I could, I would agree with that. But then like Henry and say reminded him of him and Ellie, and obviously how that ended really cemented I think his arena. I think there's like two keys.

It's one is test dying. He went from like I just gotta do this to like, oh, I'm doing this for her for tests, and then with Henry and Sammy's like no, like, I'm actually doing this for Elliott. I need to I am her protector. And I came with the same thing that befell Henry and Sam befall her. And obviously they've gotten even close in the past three months and he's like, now he got from protector to father, right, like he's not gonna say that, And she's like he even says like you're not my dad or whatever.

And the show has been so good and so subtle with it's riding up until this point. It felt like something that a less well written show would do. That's honestly how it feels. Does that make sense the whole like him like oh, and like like I don't need to see I weak, Like it's apparent what's going on here? Like that feels like it's for the benefit of someone who needs that.

To understand that explicitly, I don't know how else to put it, Like I'm not trying to drag it, but as a storytelling convention that has been used elsewhere, and I wasn't expecting this show to use it because this show is a rather well written show that doesn't resort to typical storytelling conventions. Right, That's That's more where I'm coming from. No, I get that, and I guess, like I think about it, and I'm like, could we have you know, got I think the conversations he and Ellie had were important, but yeah, it did. We need to see him have a panic attack, probably not like I would have found it just as effective, but also like I do have the context of the game, So I am a I'm probably not the most objective observer of these things.

Have you seen Ted Lasso? I am Ted Lasso, an American living in England. Okay, that doesn't make you ted Lasso. That makes you you. You also, well, you have a mustache led Tasso.

Yeah, you're Dasso. Yeah. I only ask that because remember ted Lasso. The first episode of that show, when he goes into the press conference, you start to see the inkling of the panic attack that that character has. Yeah, and again, like I get that they're motivated by different things.

But Joel had lost his daughter at the beginning of the show, effectively, like by the end of the first episode, his daughter has passed away, and that is something weighing heavily on him. It's still this is something that I feel like, just one subtle introduction of this specific oh I'm having a heart attack or whatever it's supposed to look like, that just should have been something that should have been mentioned or done one other time. Because again, where we are now, it's like, okay, like again, I haven't gotten to this point in the game. This is not a thing that happens in the game. Is it the panic attack?

I don't think so. But like there is the time jump the three I think there's three months, but there's a time jump. They go to Jackson, they actually don't, so they spend time in Jackson, which they don't in the game. They do more just like helping fix some stuff, which I think actually apparent was for budgetar reasons in the game, but it was cool. I actually like that changes, Like we have to spend some time in this like I said, lived in place where people watching movies, they're sharing things, no one's killing each other, like things work and it's like a nice plus people.

What they said, yeah, something like that, they got to school, they have religion, but like you know, non Island, like everyone's just like getting along. And so yeah, this was like generally following the footsteps of the game and going to eastern Colorado. But once again they just they stopped to spend a bit more time with the world outside of Elliot and Joel, and obviously we needed to see Tommy and you know, get that linkage together as well. Well. And that's I was gonna say that's the thing that works for me is the slowing down of the narrative really letting us see the again, like not the rest of the world, but the way another portion of the world is living.

Because we saw it in Kansas City. We saw the Kansas City yo Yo's. We saw the people underneath Kansas City who were living in the Kansas City sewers. And now we're seeing people that are effectively living, you know, in the far northern reaches of our country, like you know again, like they're living out in the will I mean, not in the wilderness, but like Jackson is in Wyoming, and Wyoming is a state with not a whole lot. And I appreciate that about the show because like again, like yes, it makes sense in the narrow of the game, but the fact that the show runners, obviously one of them being Neil Druckman, recognized that.

Like still, I think it still works because again, they changed it from Pittsburgh to Kansas City, so they could have changed it to somewhere else, but Jackson is such a big part of the second game as well, I think there's like no way to get around it. But I like that this this show has already put us in Jackson and seeing things there because I know, I know in the game it doesn't obviously, like you said, that's the second game. A lot of stuff in Jackson, and then you know, I think this emphasizes why Joe Biden's infrastructure plan is really important, because you know, post zombie apocalypse, you got to have the water Damn's working. I like that. I like how they somehow managed to tap into the electricity, just somehow, like well, you know, I did well, I using hydro power, so sure, I mean it makes sense.

Yeah, yeah, but uh so you were you like the whole Jackson piece, and like, did you like the interactions with like how'd you golt like Diego Luna, Gabriel Luna, I mean Gabriel Luna, Diego Luna. I think that's a different person, and that's indoor, dude. I haven't seen Gabriel Luna and a lot of stuff. To be honest with you, I you know, we I think we've talked about this privately about Agency's shield, Yeah, which you kind of in. Yeah, and I hey, I get it.

I remember I've seen that, I've seen Terminator Dark Faith, so that's the last time. Yeah, he sure is unfortunately for him and everybody else who was involved in that movie. Uh, he's fine. I mean again, Like the character that he's playing is just kind of a Joel, but like in a different, a different angle of Joel. He's very similar obviously because he's his brother.

And I again, I like that he's a more even keeled character. But again we've only seen him in one episode, so we don't know how even keeled of a character is. Best. We can tell he has kind of gone straight, as you would call it in you know, in current day parlance, because he's not robbing people and smuggling anymore. He's living a again, a communal life with all these people, and I think it's I think he's fine.

I like his interaction with Routina Wesley. I think they're good. I like Graham Green and Elane Miles. I wish there had been more of them, to be perfectly honest with you, I mean again, Graham Green is such a recognizable presence and such a fantastic actor, and they gave him like five lines and he's and him and Elane Miles kill it. Like honestly, this episode is really good from a casting and character interaction standpoint, Like ultimately, if you were someone watching the show, you'd probably be like, and you were expecting there to be things happening, you might be like, this is a boring episode, And I would understand where you're coming from.

But this show needs these kinds of episodes. And I'm glad that this episode is essentially just a bunch of conversations being had in nondescript rooms. Like that's really what it boils down to. And let you think about like at especially when they were at dinner launch whatever in Jackson, like how aggressive and abrasive she's like, like I've mentioned before, like she's really taking on more of Joel's persona and is it because like she thinks that's the way to be. I mean part of it.

She probably doesn't like fully trust these new people, but like she is, she has this like fierceness, and I think she's really trying to model herself after what she thinks Joel will find like impressive. Well, and I also think it's interesting that you know, you hear Routina Wesley's characters say like you know, like this isn't the way people here talk. Yeah, And it's funny to me because again like it shows just Ellie is a different person because of the journey she's gone on with Joel, Like she again for all intents and purposes when we initially meet her, like she's kind of a smartass, but not like Joel amplifies it, right, I think we both agree, like he amplifies personality traits of hers that are now like at the forefront.

And I think that obviously with what the next episode is, we're going to see you know where this is all starting from. Man, we're right, like, it's not surprising what the next episode is. Like, Yeah, I saw the name of the A Sudden. I was like, okay, I was, I was like, we called it, like, I mean, right, there's there's gonna be a there's gonna be the flashback episode like spoilers, but I mean but not really almost indicates that it's almost certain to be based on the DLCUM, which has a heavy flashback component. But I think it's it's going to be interesting how they contrast this version of Ellie the most almost fully formed version of this age Ellie, because again Last of Us two has a a more adult Ellie, the Last of Us one is more of a teenage Ellie.

I think it will be interesting to see what the original character was like when she was, you know, in this flashback it's extended flashback episode that we're going to see dah and she was you know, not that much younger than when Joel met her, but not it was like purely just her without the influence of him, right, and not as hardened as she's going to be. Yeah, and I think that will be an interesting showcase for the actress. Um And then we also really like Bella Ramsay by the way she's She's grown on me the last I think the first couple episodes, I was like, she's not bad, but I wasn't particularly taken with her performance. I say the last few episodes have really warms me up to her. Ellie and I'm I mean, Petro Pascal has been amazing.

He's been really emotive to the last few episodes, like his face and like it's got this quiet intensity. But I think we all know he can act quite well, Like really it's not at least when we can see his face. Yeah. So I mean, just because you're good action doesn't mean it shouldn't be noted when you're doing a good job. But I think it's just less surprised, like it was more expected.

So he's it's it's not his performance isn't particularly surprising. Whereas Bella Ramsey, So I'm like, okay, like she can do more than just be like the badass from Game of Thrones, Like she's got she's got some range, and she can do some interesting character beats, and she's changed like episode by episode she's changing a little bit. So um, yeah, I really like that. And then obviously have you not seen did you not see The Worst Wish? On Netflix?

That's the Bella Ramsey showcase? What the Worst Witch? It's a Netflix series based off of a children's book from the nineties that bears a striking resemblance in a lot of ways to the plot, set up and world of Harry Potter. And no, I'm not joking. She goes to a school where they're like sorted into houses and there's a teacher that's antagonistic towards her.

It's like, look, j everybody has an opinion on jk Rowling these days, and that's jk Rowling's fault. But Bella Ramsey is the lead in that show where she's for four seasons. Yeah, I'm well aware. I'm well aware. She's actually pretty good in that show.

Like she's a good part of a bad show. And to your point, if she had never been in this show, she would literally probably forever be known as the character you mentioned, the girl from I Forget What What house? Is? She? I forget I forget what house?

But she gets eaten by a giant or something. No, she doesn't get eat him by a giant. It's like she gets killed in the sheets, the kill we should we ruin Game of Thrones. I mean, nobody cares anymore, I think. I mean, she's a cool character, but she's hardly consequential.

I mean again, like, but she's but she's memorable to the point where one of the reasons she's in this show is by the strength of the performance in that show. Because Mason and Druckman reached out to Bennie Off and Weiss about working with Bella Ramsey because again, and we haven't really mentioned this on on the show, and I think we should mention it. You know what the initial plan was for the Last of Us, right, the show or the game. The game was going was in the process of being adapted into a movie, which, yeah, when Craig Mazin saw that it was and reached out to Neil Druckman through of all people, Shannon Woodward of Westworld, which makes me happy that West World exists in a lot of ways. But I think Mason and Woodward had worked on Druckman.

Druckman and Woodward had worked together because she does the voice for somebody in the last Yeah she's in I think she's Nina, right or Dina Dina who's in the second one, who's like very important character for Ellie, and yeah, and yeah, Craig Maazon like, yeah, it was it was a coincidence. It was like Craig Mazin approached Struckman and was like, hey, they're turning this into a movie. I think it should be a TV show. And then I guess he was like, yeah, you're probably right, which is like here's the thing, Like I do want to mention this because we kind of haven't talked about it. This show would not have worked as a movie.

There's no like the game would not have worked as a movie because it would have to be working three and a half four hours long, like would happen two more? Essentially yeah, or kind of kind of like do you have to think the intermission would have the intermission would have been the three months jump up. Yeah, right, so like and I'm maybe that could have worked. But giving the characters all this time, I think is more what I'm getting at, because this episode is really an hour of people just talking and I really appreciated it because again, like I think, the expectation a lot of people have with this show is it's a zombie show. There's gonna be zombie shit.

It's just like the Walking's on. He's in the show, bro, I know, but it is a zombie show. It is a zombie show for nine out of ten people. Then one person that's the gamer, gets it. But again it's a zombie show for anybody else because that's the expectation.

And if you sit down and watch the show that is going to be completely of your expectations are going to be obliterated immediately. And that still, for me, is being done in this episode. I was not expecting this episode to grind the momentum of the show to a halt, and it did, and it actually succeeded in doing so, which is a feat in and of itself, because when shows do stuff like this, a lot of people are just like, well, I'm not into this anymore, or these aren't very or the writing can't live up to what they're trying to do, and they also so let's talk about Eastern Colorado parts. So obviously, as we mentioned, Joel tries to get Tommy to take Ellie because he doesn't want to like fuck up, he can't he can't handle it.

Basically, he can't handle of Ellie dies. Guys. Yeah, and he's like, if it happens kind of off screen, it's better than you know, if I'm responsible for or like, I think you're younger and stronger and your your heads on more straight, you can get the job done where I can't. Um And he even convinces Tommy to do it, and Tommy's willing to sacrifice that for him. After like a few tense conversations about like you know, Joel not able to overcome his loss of his daughter, but you know, Joel eventually tells Ellie like, you know, you have a choice.

Obviously she's gonna choose Joel every time. And they had the Eastern Colorado University where the fireflies clearly or not. But they're like, you know, let's do some digging see where they went. You have some potentially rabid monkeys. I don't know, something weird's going on with them.

They were escaped from the lab where they were being tested. Sure, yeah, why not, right, CGI monkeys. I'm never going to complain about CJ CGI baboons. To be more, is now that that's the crossover. Nobody knew they were past of Us and Planet of the Aims.

I mean, whoa that there? It is, that's what the court accepts, only infects humans and the monkeys over after. Yeah. Um, so then you know they go and they see obviously the fireflies for whatever reason, have gone to Salt Lake City, which is kind of where the I think kind of climax of the game show is going to happen because that'll be the finale. But that's a different place than where it takes place in the game.

Yeah, I think it was in Seattle. I thought, Yeah, Seattle's too Oh okay, yeah, two takes a place I think so, I'm I mean, I could be wrong, but I'm almost certain Salt Lake City is. It doesn't matter anyway, I mean, look, we're almost at the end of the show anyway. If it's not Salt Lake City and then it's somewhere else, but like best we can tell, that's the show is on this last three episodes, So yeah, two but the show has eight seven, eight nine. Yeah, you're three left.

Yeah, but technically two. The next episode is going to be, Like I mean, if the next episode is not an entire episode as a flashback, I'll be surprised. I think I'll be interested to see how closely it's Jason the deal see, because the deals see for people that don't know, is someone's in the present, like takes place right after the end of this episode and someone's like a flashback probably I don't know how much of that they'll get into, but yeah, and then they see some bandits. Joel gets skanked by one and like he's obviously there in the winter. Ellie earlier in the episode says like I'd be fucked without you, or I'd be dead without you, or something like that, Like she realizes, like even though she's relatively competent, like from an emotional perspective and an actual physical surround perspective, she cannot continue without Joel.

She doesn't think she can in a world like this, And you know, she's not a survivalist, So it's going to be interesting to see how they balance. Like I mean, I think we can all probably go on a limb and say, Joel's probably not going to die in the next episode, but he's not doing well and she probably can't ride all the way back to Jackson in the cold. She i doesn't even know how to get to Jackson. So like that's it, isn't It puts her an interesting spot where like, this is the first time she's going to really have to like be more than just a Joel clone. She's gonna have to be Joel for them, right, And I don't know where it goes past here.

Again, I don't even didn't really know much of this episode because I am been negligent of my game playing. But yeah, like again, like the cliffhanger, the cliffhanger in this episode feels very much like the cliffhanger at the end of that episode where Henry and Sam we're pointing the gun at Ellian. Joel's Like, I appreciate what the narrative is attempting to do, but you haven't tricked me into thinking Pedro Pescal's character is going to die. It's like it's I mean I get it from like a ratcheting up of the tension for the people who don't know the narrative, but nobody who's played the game or knows the game would think that the main character of the game would die in this episode. Like, but I do think it's maybe it does ratchly up, like okay, but what are they gonna do?

Like obviously that's more interesting. He's obviously not just gonna be fine. So I mean something has So it's I guess like that is the thing. It's like we know something has, but we've both thought the show is trying to bait us into thinking Joel is dead. I mean I don't well, that's not me or you doing it, it's the show doing it.

Like that's fine, Like whatever, I get it. I'd be surprised if if the average you're left that would be like, oh, he's dead. I think it's more of like, Okay, they're in a bad situation. How how are they going to get out of this? Right?

It's these like minor flourishes on the show where it's like I I just I'm still wondering if they trust their audience, like because again, like they don't want to assume everybody knows the narrative, that's what this is. And I get it, like I'm I'm on board with that, because again, this is a very deft balancing act that Mason and Druckman have been doing with this show by keeping the people who know the narrative engaged by adding and building to a world that they've been building on already in two games, while also changing things in a way that's not going to again, not that it matters if you piss off the fans, and it shouldn't matter piss off the bands, but also stay true to the narrative as it was told there.

This is a very deft balancing act that they're doing, and they're succeeding, and until they stop succeeding, the show will continue to be very good. I get why they do some of these kind of dorky little things, but these dorky little things that they do, they're doing it for a different subsection of the audience for the show, and I can appreciate it and get it because again, like if you're a video game player, you're just going to keep playing like there is no stop here, Like this was not this way, This isn't the end of the game if you're playing the game. So this moment in the game is being used for something differently than it is in the show, but because of again expectations, this is the way they actually there is sort of a similar transition in the game where Ellie becomes more of a focal point.

Sure, so it does serve that purpose, Like as we are kind of seeing she is now, she is now the like the one that's steering, she's the one that's driving. Maybe not forever. But they put his death at they put his death scene at the end of an episode. That's all I'm saying. I don't think.

I don't know. Look, I would be saying, you get more than like five percent of people watching this show thought he was dead. Like but again, I just appreciate that it exists in the show because it to me, it shows that Mason and ructmen understand that there are people watching this that do not know the narrative. Like, look, if I have told my folks to watch this show, because I think they would enjoy it. Because again, it is somewhat Mandalorian adjacent in a lot of ways, it's like a more mature version of the Mandalorian frankly, I mean she's she's baby Yoda, and he's you know him without a helmet, right, he's he's he's shows up to the set.

Uh, not his body though, his body. But anyway, if someone like that is watching the show, who doesn't know the narrative at all, like that's who that's for, and like that, that audience does exist. And that's why this show has been so successful is because it can bridge the gap between the two. And most of the time video game things don't even bridge the gap. For one, they're not even successful at being entertaining for a commonplace, normal Friday night going audience versus someone who's you know, a Sonic the Hedgehog players since Sega Genesis came out, Like the Sonic movie in a lot of ways, is very similar to this.

It balances the two. It gives people who know the narrative something interesting and different, and people who don't something exciting that they've never seen before. But it's hard to make the two work at the same time. I'd argue it's you know, even darker. Wow.

I like those Sonic movies. Uh, they're great. I haven't seen the second one. I haven't seen the second one's good, but the first one is real good. Second one's really good.

Jim Carrey is just yeah, he could retire after those movies and be good, Like I don't think he has anything else left to say. He's his best villain role. Like it's the best villain he's played, and it's like pure carry like like it's like when you think of Prime Cary his robotic performances or just it's literally ace Ventura adjacent. It's it's all. I mean, it's like it's it's like Jim carresk.

Right, it's like he did that he did that thing from the nineties one more time. Like that's what it feels like because he hadn't done it for fucking fifteen years. Like I don't remember the last movie he did where it was like that brand that carry that on. Yeah, even his comedies, like he wasn't necessarily as over the top, right, and look like again, like we've we've talked about video game stuff on this show, but you know, and again I think it kind of bears maybe talking about a little bit. You and I are video gamers from long like I you you had them growing up.

I actually round them because of you more than anybody else. I actually was told by my doctor in the C section I was playing Pong. On the way out, I would have been playing Super Nintendo dinghis. We weren't born in the seventies. Why why would you be playing Pong when there were so many of the other options in nineteen ninety I'm not asking questions why there was a Pong system, had a game Boy in there, almost a game Boy color, had a game Boy color in the womb.

But you, I mean, that's one of the things that you and I have bonded over as friends forever. I mean forever. Literally, I can't of the things I think of when I think of my friendship and your friendship. Comic video games, and movies. Like our pop culture reference points are very similar.

If we not necessarily agree on all the quality of things. But if you can quote something to me, I will know what you're talking about. For the most part, I'm a yeah, like shit like that Like that for me is again like video games are a big part of the pop culture makeup of the things that I like. Because I still am a pretty avid gamer. I game fairly frequently, and it's not just multiplayer stuff.

It's a lot of single player stuff like The Last of Us because again I feel like, and I think you would agree, stuff like the Last of Us is more a movie even less than a game. I mean, it's an interactive movie and it's a well mated game, but like the narrative is, I'm ultimately the gameplay has to just get me to the next cut scene in a lot of ways, like and if I want to go back through and replay it and do more things, that's on me new game plus stuff. But with something like The Last of Us or God of War, I'm actively invested in the story and the gameplay should be good because I don't want to be bored in between cut scenes. But you could watch The Last of Us as a movie the game and those cuts exist on YouTube.

I mean that's like eighteen hours because you do have to watch some video game playing footage to understand the context of other stuff. But I mean again, that's I feel like more people would be into video games if there was less of a hurdle to actually playing. Man, you know what I mean, like as in getting the actual system, or you mean the act of playing the time the time I guess, well, in the act of playing video games is hard, like some people just don't have the uh not like not skills, but like the timing. No, I like, some people just stupid. Some people are some people are not they're too stupid good at video games this way, a game like a game like The Last of Us one and two, along with a lot of games coming out, have a narrative difficulty that is effectively difficult the zero so that someone who doesn't want to die over and over again, like in the Last of Us grounded difficulty would can play the game and essentially enjoy the cut scenes with gameplay in between.

Is that not what narrative difficulty is? Um? I mean I pretty much right. I guess I've definitely seen that in games, especially story during games where it's like you're not gonna die much, it's gonna be like a pretty simple experience. It's difficult because that's not the point.

Yeah, but Last of Us has that. I honestly don't remember, but I believe you. I think that we're not trying to belabor the point that just it was There's wasn't. There's the adaptation part that I think has been difficult is around execution, not around like ideation. Um No, because video games are made essentially on bol This one was well, sure, but like a lot of video game adaptations that are good succeed in both camps, the ones that people are kind of well, the original Mortal Kombat, right, I don't think in execution in that movie is very great, but I think that they stay true enough to the idea of the game that it's entertaining, right, Like, you know, like they have they have a combat tournament.

There's Lu Kang and Shang Song, characters you recognize doing things you recognize. It's not the best movie, though, because there's some things that are hard to do with a movie where it's just a bunch of people fighting over and over again. I get it, but at least in the nineties. But I mean here, the execution and the idea are so strong that, like the game was so good on its own that again we're it's like, this is a game, but it's already a movie. It's already a movie.

Agreed. Yeah, I think we're just kind of saying we both be like the episode, we're excited to see what goes next. It seems like next episode's probably a flashback. Then the whole thing's gonna be a flashback probably, Yeah, we'll see, and I will say we've got to the point where there isn't an It did seem like there was going to be some sort of flashback mechanism in every episode, like that's there's not. It doesn't seem like they have a template.

Like I will probably see more flashback generally, but I don't think it's like, oh, it has to be this every episode, which I think has its pros and its cons, like I do like seeing those those things, but also it kind of gives them the flexibility to tell the story they want to tell in that hour they have every week. So I kind of miss them because again they're just they were fun. They were fun, right, Like they were some of the better things we've seen, like the John Hannah stuff, the stuff in Indonesia, it was fun. Like I like that because that's because again, if you've played the game, that's stuff that you have not seen at all, Like that is completely one removed from the game. And that's a show.

I mean again, like you want to do another show, you could do a show of that of and you know what, they probably will given that this show has been so successful, A prequel show has already been right, but they like a prequel show to the Last of Us that takes place in the twenty subsequent years. Because dude, that that's so long, Like that's a long TV show that you could do. Can't wait to see the first of them? My god, Oh I'm here, Craig Mason, all you know you can have that one. Just just give me, like a writing look at a little writing credit.

I mean, HBO is doing the thing with it with the IT movies where they're doing what they're doing a like Stories from Dairy Maine, because in the book there's chapters in between of like this is what's been brought on in the city. Well it's sort of like history of the city too, but like they could do it an they could do any time. Yeah, I'm gonna watch it too, because I read it last year and that was some of the best parts of the book, was the world building, less the like big conflict at the center of it and did you did you enjoy the orgy after they defeated the clown. I mean, it made sense in the book, but I'm not going to condone it. It makes sense in the book because the book is very different.

The book is fun. It's fine. It's definitely the most Stephen Kingy book I've ever read. It's like it's the most self indulgent thing I've ever read. I haven't read Infinite Jest, but like it is a there for just like one guy who goes all right, every character needs a backstory, and I'm gonna give each character as a backstory like five pages.

And it's like Jesus Christ, dude, this book has like seventy characters. Some dude pumping gas at a gas station gets like five pages of like explanation. But again it's like Dickenzie and which is Stephen King And that's what I appreciate about this And that's why it's like to, yeah, make a joke that they could do a Last of Us prequel show. They totally could. This world is like so well thought out and the goalposts are rather wide because again, like they've already established different kinds of living situations that people can have.

You can have all kinds of stuff in that twenty years in between, and honestly, like I would be totally interested, because yes, this narrative is fun, but in a lot of ways, this is like the Skywalker shit from Star Wars, like this stuff is interesting, but everything else happening in the world is probably a lot more fun. But this is the you know, it's like the John Snow thing in Game of Thrones, like the House of Dragon stuff is a lot more fun because it's not the end all be all conflict. The Last of Us feels like the end all be all conflict of this universe, does it not? I mean, it is about the Lanisters though, and like the Lanister is obviously like right, you know they are like the Skywalkers of Hood what are you Targarians?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, but but but not really because John Snow is the skywalker of the start of Game of Thrones. John, I know, I know, but again, like that's something I know, but it's like, but it ends up being less about John Snow. But again now but now it does feel like more about John Snow because we're getting a John Snow TV show. Yeah right, which like again like I can't help, but wonder I honestly can't help, but wondering this is what they're gonna do. Fucking quote me, on this ship, the Ice King or the Night King is gonna come back somehow in the fucking John Snow show.

And it's because there's no way that George R. Martin isn't doing what he's doing in the House of the Dragon show knowing that a John Snow show is coming, where he could just say, well, that wasn't actually the end all threat, because whatever the next threat is is gonna be as big or bigger, right, it can't not be well and that's a cop out, but fuck that show. Fuck Game a Throne season eight. It was so bad. If they want to redo it by doing a John Snow show, that's gonna do it.

Wait, Chris, you dislike Game of Thrones season eight. I don't think that's ever heard anyway. Dave Simon is doing Built the New Seat the John Snow season. It's gonna be in nineteen seventies Baltimore and it's actually called John's Snow. He's gonna be like The Wire.

This is the Wire, the prequel to the Wire and Hannibal. Yeah, but again, like Threads, ultimately, with with a lot of these things that are adaptations, this is a very fine line because even with House of the Dragon, again, you had people that knew the narrative and people that didn't, and people who knew it were gonna be bored theoretically because it's and thenning and thenning and thenning, but that show ends up being super entertaining too. So I think the most impressive thing right now is HBO is like operating at full capacity. It's horrifying. But HBO is always executed like it, I mean at least in our lifetimes.

Yeah, that's basically been known for like they don't really have creative lulls or like The Thrones is was it being so bad in the season eight was a big deal for HBO. It was a big deal. But but it's not to say HBO has never produced like a bad season but holistically but like of a show completely, I mean there's been bad I'm sure there's been bad episode like there's I mean, I don't buy it. But there's certain people that didn't like season two of The Wire. I've never seen The Wire.

It's one it's it's on my list of things to watch. Hey man, you've never seen The Sopranos, brother, Like, don't be fucking shaking my head. The Sopranos and The Wire are one A and one B. Like it's okay. If if I ask your favorite show you're gonna say the Wire, right, Uh?

No, The Leftovers another HBO special. It's a real deep cut. I figured that would be years. Every time I see it, I think of you. I've never watched it, dude.

It another post apocalyptic thing. It sort of it changed, like it is the closest to a religious experience I've had while watching a TV show. It's unbelievable, and it's should you know what? You know what? We should cover it when we're done with this.

It's like, what six episodes? It's one it's one season, right, No, it's three seasons. I thought it was only one. No, so it was the first. It's based on a book of which the first season covers.

Seasons two and three were consoled with the writer. But actually, like Game of Thrones, what totally different things, But like we're actually better review I mean, the first was quite well reviewed. The firstson is super, super depressing, which is why a lot of people, which is why some people didn't really reson. It's like two oppressive, but season's two and three a bit more optimistic and a little different, and like are pretty much universally acclaimed. So to bring this back to the last of us, do you think they're going to make any substantial changes to the narrator is moving forward, because this is where this becomes tricky.

No, And I think even Druckman and Mason have kind of said, like it's the first game, Like, don't really like the changes we made are to really make the you know, the world a little better or just to take advantage of the fact that you don't have to be like killing things all the time. But I'm entertaining someone in that way, I don't. I don't think the big story beats are going to be that different. We'll see, I mean, we'll see the splashback episode that I think is based on the DLC and um like. But again they could right like again the second season.

Let me ask you a different question than do you think the second season to this show is going to be the second game? I think? I mean, I think we got confirmation the end of this season will be the end of the first game. Yeah, I mean it has to be at this point a bit broader in scope. I could see them splitting that into two seasons, but maybe not.

Maybe they I mean, they they could do it in one season. But my guess is, I think I know where they're going to end season two. We can talk about that later. I think I know as well. I think as well where they end season two.

Again, if you know the narrative, you know the narrative like you can't escape, you can't if you know anything about the Last of Us two, what we're talking about ties in directly to how people felt about that game, to the point of I guess people not playing that game after about the one third point, which is yeah, well then there's and then there's a whole like Abbey character and just people, which is where even more people checked out apparently. Yeah, I get it. And and you know what, I'm wonder if we'll see Abby. Dude, I was gonna say, I'm calling it right now. The after the credit scene is gonna be introducing Abby.

It's gonna be something. It's gonna be her getting the news of what transpires at the end of the first game. Abbey is a major character in the Last of Us Part two. That doesn't she's not really in part you never see her physically, but another Last of Us Part two. I listened to an interview with Craig Maysan Neil Druckman, and they said the girl that was like kind of creeping on.

Ellie was like they didn't officially confirm, but I think, like maybe Dina, who becomes so very important character for Ellie and the Last of Us part two and we actually never see in part one, so like little they can do little nuggets like that to flesh out and like like I said, even Jackson, we knew it was in Last Us Part one, but doesn't really play a big part of the narrative until US was Part two. But it's like why not, like they kind of incorporated the second game into the first, into the first episode or season of the show. Yeah, so like these these things I think serve a purpose and you don't have their little nuggets like the Dina thing, Like it's cool and it connects the stories a bit better.

So yeah, but we'll see how the finale ends and if we get a bit I mean I don't I don't think. I don't think we're not going to if they again, And that's why I said, like, do you think it's going to have a caster? Have I mean I have it because that's a big casting decision. Sure, I mean again, like they don't have to announce they cast someone for a cameo scene though, like I'm I'm I'm thinking it will be like literally like a like cameo esque thing, like a Marvel Studios type thing where yeah, like turned her back to the cam when someone comes up to her in hands or a note or something like and she turns around, it's like shocked face. And it's like people who know no and people who don't understand the connections that are going on.

Mister Stark. Also want to mention something you haven't gotten to mention. Bella Ramsey is gender fluid, and I find that awesome, and I'm really glad that HBO has two shows now with gender fluid. The actor who plays Um the Targarian on Oh Yeah, the I can't remember her name, forget I forget their name. Yeah, we're so bad.

I guess it's not this show. So it's okay, we forgot. They're the best part of that show. So yeah, and Bell, I mean, look like, as you know, I want to mention this before we end this episode. I like Pedro Pascal.

I think what he's doing in this episode is the best Joel we've seen so far in this show. But yeah, I'm to bring it all the way back to Bella Ramsey. I cannot wait to see a second and third season of this show, especially if they give it a little bit of time for her to age up a little bit more. And I mean not that it's like a huge part, but you know, she probably needs to bulk up a little bit. Get yoked.

Brother, She's gonna be yoked in season two and three of this fucking show. Every funny, she's just like fucking Jack Agoel Oh my god, Ellie side effect of the vaccine. She's just like she can crack a fucking clicker's head in between her arms. Fuck no, I will say that when I've seen Bella Ramsey like outside of being elliet, like she definitely does. She does look young for age, but she does look older than she's playing in this show.

So like, with that, with them probably dressing her more age appropriately of her actual age plus her aging in real time, I think it will be a bit less jarring. And you know what they say, Pedro Pascal and Bella Ramsey are technically the same age as a Ardo DiCaprio and his girlfriend right now. So he O, everybody, that's some slash fiction the world didn't need. It's getting cold. Out here.

It's getting cold out here. Joel, can I use your sleeping bang? No talking about the Last of Us two, not the first one, Jesus, oh man, I'm stuck in a mushroom. Come out, come help me, step dad, step Joel. Did already exists.

This is not something we're creating. This is this exists already, which is just you know, which is just great. Thanks the Internet. I actually had never thought about this ever before this moment. Chris, You're welcome.

I don't know how the fuck you didn't somehow avoided. That's not my fault. That's your own fault for not going through that derivation in your head, because it's like it, oh, just ever crossed my mind ever. Leonardo DiCaprio and his girlfriend at this age, this age, forty forty six and nineteen is that what it is? Forty seven and nineteen year whatever.

I'm not yucking anybody's young, but Pedro Pascal and Bella Ramsey together not that's a note for me, dog. I don't know. I don't know. If you see you are not allowed to write the next season, the Last of Them. If it wasn't called the Last of Us, it should be called the rest of us.

These people shouldn't exist after what's going on out wilderness. Jesus nice. Thanks everybody for listening to Mushrooms and Men. We'll be back on the next episode to talk about This isled canceled by who the mushroom Police? Oh Big Vacs.

Yeah, So we're coming back next episode to talk about Left Behind, the seventh episode of the first season of the Last of Us, And like we've already mentioned, it is a flashback episode. So Ellie, all day, every day, baby, which you know what, Hey, I think at this point, I'm I'm game, So we'll see. Until then, you can find your Shar and I over at weirdingwaymedia dot com, which is the podcast network that the Projection Booth, Mike White and I co founded as a repository and depository for all the fun things that we work on together. Yum yum. As for this show of Mushrooms and Men can be found on iTunes and all other podcast streaming platforms like rate and review.

The show that helps us out and that helps our quicker friends find you a lot quicker. Until then, you can find you shar and Eye there. We'll catch you on the next episode.