Episode 5: Endure and Survive

We're media. Hello everyone, and welcome to of Mushrooms and Men, a last of us podcast. I am one of your hosts, Chris Stashu of the Culture Cast, and I am joined by my good friend. He and I used to host a little show about House of the Dragon Game of Thrones, but well it's on hiatus because this show replaced it in the in the run for this year, I guess is this is the next big thing that HBO released. You're a friend in mind your shark.

I think my floors are breathing still. God yep. And on this episode of Mushrooms and Men, we're gonna be talking about the fifth episode, which aired a little earlier, folks, because of a little thing in this country called the superb Owl. Where is the Owl? We will not know until he shows up.

Great, great reference, because I was thinking the exact same thing, right for legal reasons, I don't know, come on down to my house for the big game. Yeah, I mean it's getting my Matthew Berry is getting there. I just keep watching the things that I keep watching things that he's in so that I can see that, like, because the Laslow thing is really just Matt Barry doing the things he's been doing, but a little bit more primarily Garth Marengue's Dark Place, which is a lot more fun than this show is because this show just became like a nightmare overnight, Like this show went bleaker than bleak obviously. Um, for anyone doesn't know, we're talk about what we do in the Shadows, but now we're talk what are they talking about?

But now we're talking about the last of Us, which Endurance survive. Um, it feels more like half of an episode than the first part of this two parter. Did Does that make sense? The first part of this the first part of this two parter because it is a two parter, right, Yeah, Yeah, feels like more of a complete story than the second half of the episode. Um, I almost think this felt a bit more complete.

Yeah, the first part, like it was definitely okay, and then and then I feel like this kind of there was a lot of end thenning and thenning at the beginning of this episode. Yeah, And that's I think what leads to me feeling that way. Is it because it feels like the first half of the episode is almost and then and then and in a way that the Bill and Frank stuff could have been but they instead committed because well, they're not going to commit another entire episode to two other characters, right right, And that's why I feel like this feels a little bit and then and then and then because it's like and then they meet John gets his character, and then it's like, okay, like all right, how about that opening though, fuck you Fedra?

Oh my god, you know what, Like that reminded me of in all kinds of bad ways, just like so many bad things we've seen in the news in the last like everything, it's just like constant. It's like, stopped embarding us with this, please, Although that was taken kind of from the game. In the game, so in the game you don't actually see the overthrow, but you do see like bodies of Fedra hung up and strung up, and so it's it's not like it came out of nowhere, and that took out about like two weeks before when Joel and Ellie came as when they overthrew Fedra. And it does seem like the one interesting thing about the Feders it seems like it's not insistent everywhere, Like the Feder that Joel had in Boston is like not great, but you can manage with them, it seems like, whereas the one that they had in Casey were really good at killing the clickers, but really bad at being humans.

Yeah, really bad at being human to one another. I guess they were murdering and raping and thieving and just like yeah, I guess being yeah, being terrible, right, So like it kind of like made those I guess images in retrospect be like, okay, I could you know, like when any oppressed people fights back, it's usually not it's usually not like a nice, non violent thing, right, It's right, it's like I want to get back to you the pain that you've inflicted on me. So right, oh totally, And you know again like obviously this episode it opens with again more not a cold open, but a flashback, and we had flashbacks too, like you said, Kansas City being taken over and we get to see what Melanie Lynsky is just so goddamn upset about, and it's her brother died because he was given up by Henry, whose brother is Sam, who was sick, who could only get meds from FEDRA, and so he sold out the big revolutionary in Kansas City who happened to be Melanie Lynsky's brother to Fedra, he died and Henry and Sam are now on the run if they aiding Melanie Lynskey, and that's the setup.

Yeah, I mean that shows like why she's so mad and like won't let it go, and why she also has so much um like support from her people to you also understand like what she's brought them from brand why like everyone's kind of ride or die with her because it's ultimately less about her, it's about her brother and they're just sticking around because of her, yeah connection to her brother, because again she doesn't she doesn't seem like a particularly good leader at all, but Perry says to her her, he was like your brother was a great man, but like we didn't remember the exact quotes, like basically we weren't able to get our freedom until you took over, So like I'm with you. So she was effective in getting the things she needed done, But it seems like she was also a bit myopic, like she was I mean, we'll get this later, but she's so laser focused on the one thing and that's getting revenge and maybe that helps her get out of the situation there in but it also like leads to her downfall later in the episode.

So even the opening, she does the trial right. She goes into the group of the whatever Confederate service, the stool pigeons as they would become, and she like, you know, if you guys help us find Henry, I will you know, give you a trial. And she leaves and she's like, no, no trial, like it's just to get information, and they just go execute like twenty people. You didn't you didn't say the best line. She goes, nah, just burn the bodies when you're done.

It's fast, or she is look like she's she's written to the point where she's twirling her mustache like it's just it's unfortunate that the character is given very little nuance, because the character's not given a whole lot of nuance. But it's it's intentional, which is why it's not a problem. Like it's intentional to prove a point about the myopic nous of revenge and what that means to you know, be on the course of avenging someone's death or what have you. Because again you just you beat, like you said, you become so lazy focus that you have blinders onto everything, even common sense, you know, like, nobody in the right mind is going to turn their back to a bunch of infected and start walking towards someone else when there are clickers and a bloater and things behind you.

But that's where we get to by the end of this episode. And I appreciate that she's written that way. It just feels like it's a shame. It's Melanie Lynskey because she's such a good actress that she brings a lot to the character, but because of the way the character is written in the expectations, she's just not given a lot of room to do much with it other than just be evil, like pure evil more or less. But I don't I didn't take her as like pure evil.

I took her as like, there's this through line in the show of you know, love of justifies the thing. We use love to justify the bad things that we do, right right, I we love Sam, so he felt justified in saying like, my brother's life is worth more than your brother's life. And then she's like, well, no, my brother's life is worth more than your brother's life. And if it's plays anything like the Games, it's going to be a common through line that we see more, learn more of and so there's part of me that felt like they're beating this pretty hard into us now at a little too much is kind of my point, like they're almost letting that message get in the way of effective character writing, because it's like, we need you to understand that people are making these decisions already.

So when because like now it feels like this is where it's going, Like yeah, it's like when Joel makes this decision, we want you to understand that he is no worse or better than other people you've seen doing this already. It's saying like we will do bad things because we justify it with love. And you see it in like movies all the time, right when someone willing to trade like like a bunch of people, it's like the reverse trolley role will trade like a thousand lives just to save a loved one and like from a purely rational perspective, like probably shouldn't do that. And there is nothing that says like my family's life is of higher moral value than yours, generally speaking, and you know, who are we to make these judge?

But in a time like this, like that's all these people have is those connections and they're willing to like just completely forsake the things they do, and then there's a lot of consequences. So these are like, this is about consequences, the consequences of Henry turning in Kathleen's brother and the consequences of Joel helping them, and the consequences of At the end, I think Joel starting to feel that same bond with Ellie that Henry and Sam have, that Kathleen and her brother have, and like, what does that mean for Joel? How is that going to change his decision making where he's maybe a bit more objective and now is he gonna lose that? And is he going to put himself in risky situations? I mean, these are all things we're going to see um and I really like Henry and Sam.

The actors were great, the kids, Sam cavan Woodard. Did you hear the story about how you get cast? Apparently they wanted So. One of the key differences is as follows the Sam and Henry, their storyline is quite similar, except Sam's a bit older and they're not running from like Kathleen, but they are like on the run. And one of the big changes they made Sam deaf, which is cool, like it actually works in the context of, oh, this is like someone who's even like less able to take care of themselves without their brothers.

So it makes like Henry like really like I am taking care of this kid. And so they wanted to cast a deaf kid, a deaf black kid right for this role, and they I think it was Craig Mason said, like they basically got just a handful of people trying to try out that no one really like. So he's like living put an open cast and call on Twitter, say anyone who like you know, meets these like young black Death send it or whatever. He said. He got five, just five auditions, and one of them was and he gave on and the kid was like really great because I think he's never done anything before, and like, I mean, obviously him being deaf makes like the als part more effective and like we believed it because he's obviously grown up with it.

But I really loved his like performance and how scared he was and he almost treated Ellie like Ellie treats Joel as in like someone to look up to. And found that quite moving, which I think obviously makes the ending of bit more more sad, and the Mark Johnson's Henry was really great too, Like you could just tell, like he really he's a guy who was self aware but scared and just wanted to do best by his brother, even if it meant kind of feeling wrong by somebody else. Yeah. Well, and again, you know, I think what's really interesting is, you know, having you know, Kevin Woodard with being deaf. It makes sense even narratively, because this is a world where there are creatures that exists that are operating off of ability to hear.

Right, Yes, so maybe his silence actually almost the opposite. I said, like makes him more valuable because it makes it more valuable, but it does make him harder to, like you said, take care of himself because he still can't hear the other infected. It's just for this one specific kind. And again, the other thing is and I appreciate this about the show. The show does kind of at this point, it's it's really making it clear the infected are a threat, but they're not as much of a threat as everything else controllable.

I mean, it obviously depends where you're at, but it seems like, you know, with enough equipment and like the feder has training and stuff, like that, Like they can generally make an area relatively habitable where the things you're worried about as long as you're staying in your area won't be the effect, and it will be it's really the behavior of other humans. It may be just more like what a lot of us normally worry about on a daily basis. It's just in this world people have been displaced by the Court of Sets in a lot of ways. It feels more like you've been displaced by them, and when you intrude into their area it becomes a problem. But it's less that they're like a zombie threat that's a constant, overwhelming threat.

Like yeah, and I appreciate that, but at the same time, like it makes it harder in some of the things that happened towards the end of this episode to believe that some of these characters are that stupid, because like this is twenty years on. They would just like get in their cars leave, is my point, Like you know what I mean, Like I just don't find it back to Kansas City like again, because this is like out in kind of the suburbs, and so I don't know, like it's just what's interesting is the way that they're treating the effected. I appreciate it because the show is so not about the infected in a way that the video game has to be to add that in so that you have something to constantly be fighting.

But I appreciate that in the show we really have taken the Court accepts and kind of just used it as similar in a lot of ways to the White Walkers in Game of Thrones, where they're there, we know they're there, and if you're a certain character in a certain part of the map of wester Rows, they may be a bigger threat than not. But like you said, a lot of the people in the world of The Last of Us are just living in these q z's and that they're just living a normal life best that they can. But they're not constantly worried about the infected infective threat coming into the q Z because in Kansas City, I mean really, they were destroyed from within by people, not by the infected. Yeah, I mean yeah.

And it said, like the one thing Fedra was good at is they drove all of the infect underground and they basically killed them all. Although it's been several years that happening, I guess Fedra had probably been running sweeps and stuff like that, so this was you know, it sounds like Fedra was really bad. But the one service they provided was an important one, right. It was the service that you would hope they'd provide, right, and it was one Kathleen, I think, let Vengeance get in the in front of And the thing is like, this was only two weeks after the fact is all these infected came up, So it was like if they had taken longer to catch Henry, who knows like how much worse it would have even been, right, Which I think is interesting because we do see a character from the video game introduced that would have been introduced what two episodes ago, the Bloater, Right, the Bloater is interesting and I don't I don't know how how do you feel about the way the Bloater just kind of shows up and happens.

I'm curious because again, like in the video game, we talked a little but about it in the last episode. Like it in the video game, it feels pretty ham fisted because you need like you're at the end of this kind of chapter of the game, and yeah, you need a boss to fight or some threat that is a little bit more overwhelming than just a bunch of infected, so it makes sense narratively there. I'm curious what was kind of your take here of just this end scene with the bloater coming up and it's like, oh my god, here's this giant thing that is that almost doesn't even seem like tonally it belongs in the world that it's in. So I think there's a few things going on that follows, like a really intense sequence that's straight out of the game with the sniper.

Right right, there's a there's a sniper holding Joel and Ellie and Sam and Henry back and Joel has to sneak around to a house and this is as they're trying to escape in the game Pittsburgh in this Kansas city that's almost exact same, except it's now dark. The sniper sucks and there's not like just random boons to kill, and so that feeds into this the biggest amount of essentially zombie court of subspience we've seen. Joel kills this like old man who's kind of like suicide by cop um, suicide by Joel Joel. Yeah, and it's quite sad, like he's begging him, don't do it. Don't do it, don't make it, don't make me do it.

But it's like, don't make me do it, like, don't make me do it, because you know what he means. Yeah, this guy, he's done, you know, living And then that lead sequence leads to Kathleen and everyone coming and the accident, which essentially unleashes the Court of Steps and that whole sequence. I thought it was quite cool, and yeah, the bloater pops out, and as someone who liked the game, I was like, I don't know, like it was cool, Like right, it was cool. Rip carry's head off? I mean, could you remove it?

And and like this this episode still generally plays the same way. Sure, but honestly it's cool and sometimes it's coool. Just have cool. Gnarly happened And I didn't really have a problem with it, m but you do get what I mean, Like in the video game, it makes sense in the show, it's like what I have it again, like I have no I am not saying I have a problem with it at all, but you and I do both kind of I think agree a little bit at least see some common ground of like it didn't need to be there. It doesn't add anything.

It does look cool, and it's cool that they're referencing the game, because yes, this is adapted from the game, so why wouldn't you reference it. But it's not like they're like, there's a bloater. It's just like, what the fuck is that thing, which is the response in the game as well. I mean, it's not like they're calling it a bloater in the game, they're just like, what the actual fuck. So remember, most people haven't even seen clickers, right, right, Well, and that's the thing with Henry and Sam.

It's like you saw a clicker. It's like, again, I like that, And that's what kind of was feeding into what I was saying earlier of this idea that like, the infected are a threat, but it's not like everybody's seeing a clicker like, And it would stand to reason if Henry and Sam are reacting that way, that if you run into a clicker, like, your fucking toast dead. And so it also makes sense that no one really would have seen oats right if people right, So it's not out of there of a possibility, And I thought that sequence was pretty awesome. Well, he the bloater kills Perry the way you would die in the games you got near the bloater, which is which is the gnarliest way to die in that game with the bloater just sent sticking his hands in your mouth and ripping your face off.

So I listened to the podcast that they do the last those podcasts, like Neil Druckman, and he said he hugely asked them to see if they could just rip Perry in half. These like people don't rip well across the waistline. So they just went with like what they did in the video game, which is much gnarlier. I think, like having something stick it's like hands into your face, yeah, and then just go is yeah. I mean there's a reason it works in the game.

There's a reason it works here. And the way that they do it here works where it's essentially done in silhouette and you don't see anything like I think that works because again that those creatures aren't even the point of that scene. The point of that scene is Melanie Lynskey getting to Henry and having that moment of kind of you know what, what if he was meant to die? Like all of that just like posturing shit that Melanie Lynsky is doing is so good because she's just by this point, she's just like she ignores the fact that they're infected. Let's just put it that way.

What do you I mean, what do you think about like the way that whole sequence was set up, from when Joe kills the sniper to the rebels like getting there to you know, almost killing Henry and then like all the infected show up, Like how did you feel about it? I thought it was really well done for a show that we haven't seen. Like ostensibly this is like what the second action set piece we've seen, because we had Bill and Frank with that kind of him standing in the field shoot or like in the middle of the road shooting at people. And then there's this right, like you kind of have the one where they infected running with Tests sort of sacrifices herself. Right, it's probably the closest thing we've had to that.

But this is like really like everything's just happening once you if cars going, people shooting, running, infected humans fighting humans fighting infected like like the this is like about as big as it would as anything we've seen in the Last of Us, and the big as anything I can recall in the games as far as like infected being involved. Like in the game, the sequence is actually you as Joel as a sniper shooting infected while Ellie and everyone tries to come to you. Right, So it was cool that they kind of incorporated that as well. I like, I liked it. I will tell you, like I haven't I this is where I stopped in the video I haven't gone to this point in the video game yet.

I haven't played it because I just didn't know pass where I was what, So now I know, and now I know where I can stop. So I will tell you. The setup felt Vario Vario Vario Party. It felt very video gaming. The setup does having Joel like again like that, Like when I saw that, I was like, man, that must be what you do in the game, right, that must be once going on with you in the game looking down the stiper scope and like it is right, which is perfectly fine in the in the scope and scheme of a video game.

It makes sense. I think it works well enough here. I think we've seen things like that before. But to your point, like, if you've played a video game before, you've undoubtedly either been the character sniping other people off or the one utilizing the overwatch of a sniper. So it felt very like, Okay, if this is where this is, I bet it's just like this in the game.

Outside of that, it was well shot and well edited. I didn't really lose track of the action, and there were moments of I mean, there were moments where you know, Ellie is in the car and Zoie girl, yeah, and the clicker little clickers in the car with it like that. That's a nice kind of moment, a quieter moment in this kind of very loud action set piece. So I think it's nice that they even had in these bigger kind of action set pieces, some quieter moments. And I like that the bloater doesn't just show up immediately.

That it's like, you have all of this kind of stuff going on and then the bloater shows up, and that's kind of like the moment where everybody's like, we have to fucking leave now. And I appreciate that too. I appreciate that Jole's not like smile you, son of a bitch Jaws style, like blows up the bloaters and then they just leave. They're like, let's get the fuck out of here, And that would be anybody's reasonable response here, which is why showing Melanie Lynsky's character doing what she's doing at the end of the scene totally works. Where she's like, nah, fuck this, like this has gone to shit.

Now, everything has gone to shit. I am going to come and kill you if it is the last thing that I do, and it is the last thing that she does. Yeah, and she gets it pretty good, Like she gets it real good. She gets the shit beat out of her by and infected like an eye for an eye and in the whole world goes blind, right, Yeah, So it's like that whole sequence she gets Henry, and Henry's like, you know, he's just a kid or a fucking kid or whatever. She's like, of course, I betrayed your brother.

And she's a kids die all the time. And she's so matter of fact that she's right, like even before this world, like kids did die and it didn't justify you know, the kinds of things that Henry did, Like what Henry did, you could say it was a bad thing. But then like now Kathleen's mel this is all it drives her, and it's dooms her rebellion essentially because compounding that book, it's compounding bad things with bad things things and exactly and like that's a through line. It's like bad, it gets bad, and then the decision is do you continue the bad because something bad happened or do you try to do something different? Right, And we'll see where Joel and elligo with this, and like if they learn or if they it's unclear, But the inevitability of the ending is feeling more and more inevitable this show goes on, which which I think, though to be fair, and I've said this before on other podcasts, the best kind of endings, the most satisfying endings, are the ones that feel ultimately inevitable per the way the narrative gives, Like the narrative is leading us to the ending, and if it feels like all the pieces have set into place, whether or not we like it, like the ending, which, like you said, you resonated with the last of us the game's ending in a very specific way, like the puzzle pieces were out there.

You could see how they got to the ending. Even if you don't like it, it felt inevitable. And like now with the way the show is kind of being a little heavy handed, but heavy handed for the sake of argument is what it feels like. The inevitability of where we're going feels inevitable now, Like it feels like this episode, almost more than anything else under this point, feels like, well, if I was confused or concerned that they were going to change the ending, I don't think they're going to. Now.

They may change it a little bit, but I don't think they're going to change the main beats at this point, I agree, And like Kathleen gets a chance where Perry's like go, like go back, and she's like no, And then she gets another chance when she gets up to Joel and them, and like she holds the gun up to Henry and Sam and then Joel's I just leave and she's like no again. I can't even comprehend this idea, Like the clicker gets her and like that's in her mind, that's justice. Justice is blood for blood, flesh for flesh, like and I think what the show is showing us is like it's, you know, a way to think about justice, but it's probably not the most effective way. And like when that like drives you and becomes all you think about, you lose the bigger picture.

Ultimately, the reason they're in situation where there's Fedra and when Fedra's being like shitty and why her brother's leading rebelling is because of the infected, right, and to the point of well, you know, the people. We don't really see it in the show, like she's almost acting like that's not a huge priority, and it is. It's way more than finding Henry and Sam. It's the priority of the world is to keep your people, especially especially you are now the leader of these people. You're supposed to shepherd them and like like her brother would have.

And and that's the thing, Like she is a shitty leader. She is focused. Like shitty leaders do not put themselves and their causes before their people, and they don't hoist their people on the patard of their causes, which is what's going on here. It's like you know the military cus right, like, okay, it's effective at overthrowing, but then you need like actual like not a general or whatever, is a leader. You need like someone who can lead and manage.

So it's like, yeah, she's she can get you there, but she's not very a governing and wartime generals don't make good peacetime presidents. I feel like, yeah, I just and I'm like, Melanie Lynsky's a pretty good I mean again, like you like you said in the game, I'm sure you see the Fedra age and strung up and stuff, but like to your to even that end, it's like would that have been what her brother was doing? Like no, what he know, we know, we know he wouldn't have right, So like again, like it's it's this further kind of like perverting of the message of like all right now I'm in charge and I'm going to utilize his platform to pervert the message and turn it into this like kill Fedra fest because again, like if they buy them killing Fedra, they doom themselves, right, like well, because they don't do the one thing that Fedra was doing, and like they she even says her brother told her to forgive Henry, Like her brother said that to her, and she's like, I don't care.

So it's so at this point, it's not really about what her brother wanted earth keeping his dream alive. It's just doing makes her feel good or it makes her feel right. People that rigid don't last, like and it leads to her doom. And I think it also leads to a really effective rest spit like the ending seems like it's going to be a happy ending, and then you get something. You know, they escaped Kathleen, but it's like, oh shit, Like no, you didn't, Like there's still more bad stuff happening.

And I know we've talked about Ellie and like how much we were digging her and stuff. And I think this was probably the best Bella Ramsey episode. I think her interfaced with Sam, like you could really see that, like she is just a kid, but like she wants to teach and like she is learning, but she can also interact with the adults, and I feel like she's starting to come into her own a bit more. Not this was the episode I think she shined the most for me. I agree, I did myself a disservice by watching some Bella Ramsey and Pedro Pascal HBO like promotional stuff where she looks more like the nineteen year old that she is and less like the fourteen year old she's portraying on the show.

But to your point, her and Sam playing off one another allows her to feel like a kid the way the show wants us to and the way the game does, because the game makes her feel like more of a kid, But I mean Bella Ramsey is good enough of an actress that you kind of forget her actual age being yeah, she looks young enough. Yeah, she looks young enough where it's like I can forget. But again, she's a good enough actress where she can rise to the occasion when when it's needed to be a little bit more adult. But she is also a good enough actress that she can be more childlike and it's believable, and her and Sam feel less like Yeah, it feels like less like an adult and a kid, but more like two kids together, which is not something we've seen with Ellie at all in this show.

It's been her around adults and now her around someone younger than her. She takes on kind of a mentorship brother sister role, but at the same time, like it doesn't feel it feels more brother sister than Henry and Sam do, because Henry and Sam feel more father and son. Yeah. Yeah, I mean Henry is his brother, but I mean he is his caretaker, like right, And I think by making Sam younger, like it makes it even more like that than in the game, Like, did you know where the Henry Sam's story was going? Have you gotten that far in the game.

No, but I knew it wasn't going to end happily because nothing in this show Slash movie ever does show Slash game never does. I mean, nothing happens in the game that doesn't end up having something like negative smashed right on it. Like I love his little like writing pad, Like they're so genius, I feel like deaf, Like obviously that's like the right, right, it's infinitely really usable. Like um, like that conversation here with Ellie though about like you know, an internal monster, and like the fact that she even tried to heal him with her blood, like it shows like, you know, maybe she's starting to kind of honestly like get higher and own supply, but you know, like believe like I can actually do something.

Obviously, just rubbing her blood isn't enough, but but the fact that she was willing to try that, and like her first instinct wasn't to tell Joel and it was like, let me see if I can fix this, because I want this kid to survive. And unfortunately he gets infected and you know, at least to the end you talk of the ending sequence, Yeah, the ending is pretty rough. I mean, the there's no way it wasn't going to be. But Sam attacks Ellie. They do the out in from another room and it wakes everybody up.

Sam's bitten because of the right we never see similarly to tests, we never see when he was bitten, but he was bitten at some point on the leg by it infected and he in the middle of the night turns as you would expect him too, because he's more than likely not immune. And then he and Ellie fight through a doorway essentially into the next room, and Joel goes for the gun. Henry grabs the gun, points it at Joel, then points it at Sam, then shoots Sam, then goes, what have I done? I can't believe I did that, then shoots himself. It is an emotionally exhausting sequence, and I expected it to be, Like I wouldn't expect anything less from this show.

I mean, look, it's a it's a pretty neat little subversion. I mean, I think if you saw this episode and you'd never seen the show or the game, I think you would think something is up when you see them in the hotel after everything happened. I'm sure you'd be like, oh, there's something else going on. Maybe, but that doesn't diminish the emotional impact because we've gone on a journey, even if it is one episode essentially with Henry and Sam, and these are characters that I think are likable and are not like Melanie Lynsky, where it's like, all right, she kind of deserved it. Like this is you understand why Henry does what he does, even if I could not condone it anymore than a lot of people would, because suicide, I mean, suicide something hard to watch in media and like it's it's hard and they don't show it, and I'm glad, but again, like the scene is emotionally impacting enough that I just it's it's it's yeah, it's it's rough, but I think it's I think it's effective.

Yeah, it's I mean that that's taken to h straight out of the game, Sam attacks Ellie, Henry shoots him, and then like in the realization of what he's done, he doesn't even have time to process, just puts the gun on himself because he's lost the one thing that he's been tasked to protect. And there's actually like a quote that Kathleen said earlier that I think is very central to the last the story of the last of us, and she says, you think the whole world revolves around him talking about Sam, that he's worth everything, and like we see, I mean that's like like if I could say that one quote, what is the last Us? That's what I would say. And Henry like, to him, Sam was everything and maybe he could have had a life afterwards and come with them or gone on his own, but he's just so like in it, I can't believe what he's done.

And Joel tries to calm him down, but yeah, it just turns the gun on himself and it is tragic. Like I feel like that was more tragic than anything we've seen because Joel didn't really have a choice when it was about losing his daughter, right, Tess chose to sort of go out the way she did, but she was gone. Like Bill and Frank actually kind of had a weird happy ending. This is not kind of not kind of They did have a happy They had their own happy ending. They were going to get the happiest to bed things that this show will ever grant any of the characters.

I think I could say that. I think I could say that concretely that there will be no set of characters in this show that get a happy ending the way those two did even close to a happy ending. But Henry, even losing Sam could have you know, made a life and but he just couldn't fathom it, Like he could have gone on with Ellie and Joel. Yeah, and maybe if he had more time, like process would happened, but it's just so rapid, you know, and give himself time, which I mean again, like I have never been in that situation, so I can't imagine what a fictional character is going through. But that felt inevitable.

That didn't feel like there was any way that he wasn't going to do that if that happened. So you felt like when you saw that happen, you weren't like, oh, he's gonna go with you thought, oh, I was like there waiting for that moment to happen because he's not going to give that gun to Joel. It's just not going to happen. And again, like it makes sense from the way this character was written and the sacrifices that the character had made for him to go. I just shot the person and that I did all of this four and I didn't have a choice in the matter.

He didn't have a choice, Like he shot him because he wanted to. He shot him because he literally had to and right, And I think it's I think it's that moment of like because I'm sure if you put yourself in the shoes of the character, it's partially I just had to kill my own brother, but it's also putting into perspective everything that happened in the evening before and how now like they're they're on the other side of it. And it did, like you said it, the shadow of Melanie Lynsky's character looms large even at the end of this episode because because of her this happens almost directly. And then yeah, because she pursued them, right, And then you get the sequence where Joel and Ellie are burying them, which is like I was watching that and I was thinking, like, you know, Joel probably wouldn't bury people, like going back to the he's very practical or pragmatic, right, like he cared.

I think he did care, Like I think he did connect right with Henry in san and Ellie did. But I think they did that more it was more for Ellie's benefit than I don't think Joel would have done that in a normal circumstance with someone like, he didn't bury Bill and Frank, right, Um, I also ask, yeah, he's at the first people. I think he's had the opportunity to Bury's kind of what it feels like. Yeah, I guess he didn't bury Bill and Frank. He didn't bury his daughter.

Best we can tell, I'm assuming maybe he did. Again, we never see that. It's never mentioned in the game. Like Tess, he didn't get to Bury in the game, she's shot dead and there's nothing left to barry. I don't know.

I'm with you, I think again, like it goes back to what I was saying last episode, where Joel is a softer character in the show than he is in the game. The character in the game would not have done that. I agree with you, But I think that to have Pedro Pascal not but also but to have Pedro Pascal and Ellie Arabella Ramsey not bury these two characters, I feel like that's more also for the audience's benefit, right, Like you would made you feel like they're not emotionally into in characters, even on a base level. If they're not willing to bury the two people that help you get them out of Kansas City. How did you feel about like, like, what do you think Joel's thinking in that moment as he's burying them?

And you know, I leave, it's that thinks say, I'm sorry it leaves. I mean, I know what Neil Druckman and Craig Mazin have said, and I think that they've done a pretty good job of kind of giving us as an audience a consistent lingering shot on Pedro Pascal is always a good thing because we just get to see the emotions that he can kind of embody and conjure up as an actor. And I mean, look, look, if you don't know where this is going, you're in for it. Let's just put it that way. If you do know where this is going, we're still in for it.

Because like you and I both know this show is ending is going to be rough, Like it's gonna be real rough. I don't think people are ready for it. And I think people are going to be really angry because you were really angry, but like anger in like anger not at the narrative, but anger at this is like this makes sense. I just can't believe you're actually doing it, And like it's that it's that you see that look on his face that he knows he's going to have to make a choice and that choice may impact him negatively. Whatever it is, I think it's that he's he's turning into Henry like, like he's like the way Henry felt about saying, I'm like, for the first time in whatever twenty years, I'm starting to like feel this thing again where I'm gonna put someone above me, right, whether it's right or wrong thing to do.

Like, I mean, obviously, Ellie is like a his like is an analog for his daughter, right. I don't know if he's thinking like this, she is my daughter right now, but we're seeing that open and then he's like, well, you know what happens in a situation like this happens like you know what what would like what would Joel do? And I think I think that's the rest of the season, is what would Joel do? Um? Yeah, I mean yeah, I think you know, obviously the show, this is a pivot point for the show.

Right, We're about to be going to Wyoming. We're finally going to see Joel around a character that we haven't seen him around at this point, which is his brother, and like where it goes from there is going to be drastically different from what we've seen so far, and I'm excited for that, but I'm also kind of apprehensive because I have liked everything that we've seen so far, so I wonder what this pivot is going to look like and what the showrunners are going to have in store for the next kind of half, because it's probably the next half of the show, right I think the next half is probably going to be continuing the story of Ellie's journey to the West Coast because this has been like it's been, that's been the main point here.

But the last couple episodes feel like they're kind of trying to get us to understand the message of the show more than anything else. It's getting us to a place, but also like really starting to solidify that Joel in all the relationship, which I know a few episodes ago you weren't you weren't buying it totally like you weren't buying that it's going to be where it takes to be. And I think they're doing the work. And honestly, three of the five episodes so far, even of the Bill and Franklin, might be more memorable because it's a little more idiosyncratic. This I think was the best episode of the show to me.

Like you had the action, you had, the tragedy, you had the really you had the good joel in Elie dynamic, and like it had it had everything, had the darkness of the people that had the court accepts um and it had some like strangely questions, had some questionable ethical dilemmas. So so I feel like it's like Part and Parcel with the Last of Us at display questions. Yeah, but I mean I was like, this has everything I could possibly want from this show. Was like this episode like it was hard for me to poke any hole or complaining about the thing. I was like, no, this gives me everything I could possibly want.

Uh, you know, if I wanted like maybe I said, oh, it's almost too close the show. But even like the little details they changed, like making Sam younger and death and making the sniper in the house an old man rather than just like some goomba who you know wants to kill you. That's a different video game. Pal, sorry Chris Pratt, don't come back. Let go.

But uh but yeah, I just like I'm like, all right, you know what they realize the stuff that works narratively, and the little things they're tweaking make it a more effective narrative. Like the little changes they've they've done, I think every single one of them, I'd be like, yeah, that makes sense, Like I like it. Okay, let's see what happened to enter agents and who's leading that. Let's you know, let's see what happens, you know to someone who's lived in a world for this long, like that old guy, Like how they would feel if they were given a chance to keep living or not. Like so all of these things I found it just made really good.

And the you know, we take get an extra conversation with Ellie and Sam, and Ellie tries to help Sam like that was all new and just adds context of the characters and change the character, but just makes us a little bit closer because one thing we have in the show where I don't have a game, is like we don't eat constant action or for momentum, and we don't just have to focus on our two leads. We can kind of lift the world around them, breathe and let them like by being more passive and how we're consuming it, it makes this show, I think click from like a more where it's holistic, but like we can see it from a broader perspective, and I find that's working really well well. I think that that ultimately, if you or I or anybody worth their salt as a writer or adapter or producer, we're making this show.

That's the important thing here is less on the ground constantly, but more understanding how the world exists as well and we And again there are ways they do that the video game, like the notes that you can find which they reference here in the game they reference is in the show, and they have that in the bunker that they kind of find, which is again literally only for like a certain group of people who are watching the show, right, because that means nothing, right, that means nothing to a large portion of the people watching the show. So all of that aside, I think you're right. I mean, it would have been a mistake to just focus on Ellie and Joel the entire time, because that is the game that if you want, that's the game, because you don't play as anybody else in the game, your Joel the entire time.

It's the Joel and Joel and Ellie story from start to finish. I like that the show, to your point, is not less interested in telling their story, but more interested in telling a whole story of the world and how the world is existing and these two people's place in it. And I think that the intro for the show does a good job of informing what this show is going to be. The opening animation shows the world and then you see the two people, but the world. I mean again, this is ultimately a world spanning issue that these two characters are at the center of the rest of the world doesn't even know that, and the weight of the world is on their shoulders, and I think that maybe that's being underplayed, But I think it's also important because by the end of the show, we'll get to see what it means to internalize that knowledge and also disregard it in a way.

And I'm excited to see where the show goes from here, because to your point, it feels like from here on out we're gonna get to see the real show, Like we're gonna get to see what this show actually is gonna be for the next five episodes five four or four or five, whatever it is. But this was the halfway point now, so I think from here on out We're going to see a very kind of tonally consistent show, and it's gonna be a little bit different than what we've seen because the characters don't have to be traveling constantly. They can kind of sit around and wait and have more of a quieter moment with some of these characters, like Joel's brother. So we'll see. I'm excited this.

I mean, this is this is the moment where the show may pick up or it may stumble. I don't know. I mean, you know, again, it's gonna it's gonna be interesting either way if it's anything like like you seem to be finding the main beats, like it's not getting much happier, Like we're gonna have I think, a lot more focused on the human element and like the darkness that is within the people and how different people are surviving. And so yeah, it's gonna be interesting to see how that translates to the screen. And I'm interested to see like how much more clicker stuff they're going to incorporate within this show as well.

Like I wonder if it's not a deal breaker anything, but I wonder if, like you know, this is the last we've seen them A lot of clickers for a while. Is that the case in the game. No, I mean they're they're constantly throughout, but obviously it's they're they're rarely the main thrust of the story. It's more of like you're getting through them to get to the next place you want to get to. You're getting through them to get the next place you want to get too.

So obviously you don't need that in this right, Like we don't need to follow Joel and Ellie for four hours straight walking. Yeah, if I clicker would be interesting. But I wonder if, like, are they going to continue to be this just kind of in the background, or we're going to still get more of like the like we got in this episode, sort of more traditional zombie type of feel. So I'm just curious to see how they how they handle I think they've been doing a good job of balancing both so far. I agree.

I mean, it's it's it's a this kind of thing really is a balancing act, because you don't want it to be a typical zombie show like The Last of Us could be, which is the Walking Dead or all these other shows and properties that are just you know, it's just a zombie thing. But like this. I feel like this is trying to be more and I think it's succeeding at being more. But whether or not that success will carry through to the rest of the season and then a second season, yeah, I think, to your point remains to be seen because some people are watching this show for the zombie adjacent stuff, not everybody, but you know, I mean again, like, if you've seen the source material, you know what the expectations are in a lot of ways.

And I think for me, as someone who hasn't finished the first game but has been playing along with the show, it has done a good job of kind of satisfying what I was hoping the show would be from a purely zombie court accepts adjacent thing. I think it's succeeding. I wonder, Yeah, because to your point, like some of this is just about how bad people are, which has nothing to do with zombies or zombie related things. So I think it kind of takes a lot of the things at the Walk and Dead try to do it didn't some way as well, but maybe do the nature just wanting to lasted so long. But I think they're doing it a bit more effectively and concisely.

I think they're being a little subtler about it and a little less heavy handed, and when they are being heavy handed, it doesn't feel overbearing like with Metalinnie Lynsky's character, like that's intentionally overbearing and it totally works. If it were The Walking Dead, it would feel it would feel like Nigan does, where it's like all right, we get it, like all right, like you're gonna keep going just doing that one thing, all right, Like we're just gonna give him a lot of time too, all right, Okay, yeah, and it's like to that point, like you know what a character like Nigan survived that long if they were just like that all the time for a long extent period time, we see like Las what says m you know you got to adapt, Kathy, Right, you're not going to adapt.

You're gonna get fucked by these things because you're too busy focusing on this other thing and everything is dangerous, right, not just one thing. So yeah, great episode, Like yeah, it's like I don't want be like ten out of ten. But I was like I can't really complain about anything this episode, so maybe it wasn't a talat ten again. I kind of just had the problem with the early YadA yadding. But I mean again, like the show hasn't done a lot of YadA yadding up until this point, so I kind of maybe should give it a little bit more of a pass than I have.

But I agree you were you might not seeing enough of the doctor. You're the actor. I'm glad he came I'm glad he came back. I'm glad he came back. I'm glad they brought John gets back.

I mean, hey, I'm not going to complain about that. I mean again, but it was a little like just YadA YadA, like we gotta get like I get it, like I get it. I get why they did it, but like, even for this show, it felt a little atypical for this show. I get why they had too. Should they have given Henry and Sam an entire episode?

I don't know, another if another show might have this show didn't, like you know, I mean again, another show would have given Bill and Frank less and given Henry and Sam more like that. That's in my mind, it's kind of that's kind of where this pivot point is, right, Like, if it wasn't a Bill and Frank episode, they probably would have given Henry and Sam a whole episode, So I think the way it panned out, I'm okay, six dozen half the other I think the Bill and Frank episode was so unexpectedly good that this episode is good. I think this episode had different directions. It could have gone and built those characters out more, but by the end of it, I mean, it tells such a compelling story that, yeah, you're just exhausted at the end of this episode because it's a lot and that is this show, Like this show reflects the video games claustrophobically overwhelming nature really where where it's like you can't everywhere you look, it's awful and you just can't.

There's no escape. Even when you do think you escape and you're in a hotel room and there's nothing and you think you've gotten away, you can't escape it. And like that, I appreciate that about this narrative because yes, it is overwhelmingly depressive, and it is overwhelmingly just like constantly beating you over the head with how terrible the world is. But with this kind of narrative, it kind of needs it because, like they're they you have to understand, like we've been talking about the depths to which society has sunk which couldn't, which then informs the length of which people are willing to go to achieve whatever it is for whatever reason. And for this show specifically, it's talking about how does like you've mentioned, how does love factor into making decisions that are beyond unpalatable almost without any other reason.

So I'm I'm excited. I mean again, I'm still on board with this show. The show is. I think we'd both agree the show's really good, which in and of itself is not surprising anymore that it's good. But if you had told me before the show aired, like we would be really enjoying the show a lot to be like good because again, it's a video game thing.

Yeah, and like video game things, aren't this good normally. If ever, frankly, I kind of forget that this is a video game sometimes, which is you know, a good thing. Really? Yeah, No, I think it's great. Can't wait for next week's I hope we have a super Bowl every week, so we get it two days early, right, super Bowl?

Super Bowl. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, Roger Gadell, I'm sorry. When will the Owl be here? He's given in the brain scrambles, that's the Brain Scramblings episode, isn't it. Yeah?

Yeah, hey, uh see that show. That show is a good palate cleanser for this show. Watch an episode of this show, then watch like four episodes of that show. Actually some episodes of more death than Last of Us does, but it's a it's a lot easier to fault swallow. Yeah, boy, and that the case.

So on the next episode of Mushrooms and then we're gonna be talking about the sixth episode of the Last of Us, which is titled Kin. Until then, Yeshar and I can be found at weirdingwaymedia dot com, where him and I do a little show called Game of Bros. House the Dragon, where we talked about another show that was really surprisingly good, more surprisingly good than this one. Was like, yeah, yeah, this was I don't think this was gonna be bad, but that show I had no expectations for it. So next one's called Kin.

So I mean, Tommy, it sounds like it's probably gonna yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I forget you don't watch the post episode teaser. So I did watch the interview, but I didn't see the teaser for next episode, so I missed that day. Yes, they like the first day in the show was like Tommy like Pedro Pascal saying it and then like them hugging. So yeah, I look, I'm excited to see an injection of new characters and kind of what they bring to the Ellie and Joel dynamics. Yeah.

Yeah, because Tommy's interesting character in the games. I think in one I like him more than in two, so I think I'll enjoy him, and I like Diego Luna. I say this is a ghostwriter truther because he was an agency Shield his ghostwriter for like a couple episodes, like half a season. He's supposed to get his show. But you know, I feel like a lot of people can say that about Marvel.

We were supposed to get this. I'm sure you were any justice for ghostwriter. Maybe someday we'll Maybe someday I will do Agents a Shield something. I've never watched that show, and I've heard how weird it is. It's so good, it's so good.

Oh are you being serious? Bro? Bro? But the thing the Shield is the first season, the first like half of the first season is like just okay, you're like uh, But then when it gets because the first few seasons especially we're really in concert with the Marvel movies, like where things happen then like really went into the show once the Whicher soldier thing happens, where like hydra shield and obviously it's called the shields. Hows it impact them?

Like once that twist happens, it's just straight fire interesting banger after banger after banger after banger after banger after banger, and it's weird after banger after banger after banger. I've know you're the only person I know who watched that show and has anything to say about it. So it's Banger's only bro bangers only bangars bus. They're going on the bus to the bangers. They're going on the bust of the bangers.

Yes, and the mashum everyone in between episodes of Blast of us watching him some shield please. That's a weird counterpoint, but hey, I'm here for it. I'm here for it. But yeah, you can find more of your share and I talking esoterically about pop culture over at weirdingmedia dot com. As for this show, can you find us, Yeah, weirding way Media.

So yeah, check us out there, follow us there, like, rate and review the show. Wherever the hell you get it being Spotify, iTunes, or whatever platform you're pulling us into your lives through. As always, we'll be back on the next episode.