9: Under Siege

Hello, and welcome to a very special episode of the Ensagal Podcast. I am your host, Trevor Grumble joining me as always is the beautiful road Runner because he never gets caught. That's so says Tommy Lee Jones and underseage. No, I am Chris dash You. I am here, and like Trevor mentioned, we are joined for the first time on our show.

We have our first guest, and it's kind of fitting in a way because well, his book Seagology kind of put me on this path of Seagal to begin with. So there you go. We're talking with the one and only Verne or per his zoom name, the Outlaw Verne or Outlaw Vern. Hello, thank you, thank you for having me, so Verne. I think the question on my mind, on Trevor's mind, on probably people who've read your book, which is available on Amazon both in kindle and physical copies, is it here fucking fumbling my words like an idiot?

Why Stephen Seagal? Vern? Well, I love, I love Steven Seagal's movies, especially as early ones, and I love a lot of different action movies, and he's not necessarily my very favorite one, but I just became fascinated with them after I mainly because of because of On Deadly Ground, and after I had seen On Deadly Ground and all the you know, the political aspects of it, the way he talks, has the big speech about the environment at the end and everything, and a lot of the philosophy that's in it, which everyone made fun of at the time, but to me it was like very interesting, Like what is up with this this guy who's this action hero and goes out there and that's how he decides to use his cloud is to make this particular movie.

Um, that's such a weird, a weird combination of like really awesome action movie and absurd kind of hard on his sleeve corny nous. Um. I just really love that movie. And then and then afterwards I started seeing a lot of the straight to video once he was doing, like in their late nineties early two thousands, and I just really it fascinated me how much he seemed to have seems that he would do over and over again in these movies, more more so than like Bruce Willis or even even Jean Clay Van Dam would be playing a character that's that's different in each movie, but so Gal seemed to be like, I'm the same guy, except this time I'm ex Navy seal, or this time i'm x CIA, or this time I'm helping animals and this time I'm a chef or whatever.

But always x something, always exactly, always were always go from He always goes from x x UM covert operative military or whatever to man of peace. Yeah, yeah, And I love that sort of archetype, And so I thought that was so cool, and I literally there was a point where I literally had a chart that I made where I put different categories like like what his background is, whether or not he has an old friend that he hooks up with that gives him advice, and whether and like what the politics are of the movie. Like that was on one side and the other side was like a list of each of his movies. And I was filling in this giant chart, and and it just got to a point where I was like, you know, I made up the name psychology, and I just thought, if if there was a book that existed that uh, they looked at all of these movies seriously, like with the sense of humor, but also seriously trying to analyze all those things about it that would be in itself would be kind of hilarious that it existed, but also would just be like the exact book that I would want to read.

And so I spent a long time writing and I originally self published it and then uh, luckily a publisher was interested in it and and a lot more people got to read it, and and yeah, that's it. I was about to say, there's like the pedigree the people that you know are have vouched for the book or some pretty big names. Yeah, you know you have David Gordon Greene who does the the forward right to the book. Um, yeah, who's become a lot bigger since then, which is yeah, yeah, that was very nice of him to do that. He Uh, I used to, but I'm friends with a guy that works with him, and so I kind of like he seemed like a big name that I could ask to do it.

And then I really didn't know until I asked it. He actually was really into Sigal movies and was excited to write it. So that was pretty great. Why hasn't he put Sagal Halloween? Damn it?

Come on, Mike Myers against Steven Seagal. It would probably be like Mike Myer or Mike Mike Tyson versus Steven Seagal five minutes of the two and a half hour movie. We'll get into that. And also Gamel del Toro also had at a pretty nice, pretty nice little buy line for your book, which is super Yeah, that's a little bit misleading. He Uh.

That was thanked to Drew mcqueeney, who I knew from I used to write any cool news back then, and he hooked that up. But it was actually originally for a book that I self published as a collection of reviews. Um so it was a great It was a great thing that he said about me. That's amazingly flattering and everything, and then the publisher decided that that would apply to the Seagale book. Hopefully he wasn't offended by that.

I have no idea if he ever hasn't. He hasn't served your papers yet, has he? So I think he's cool. Not so far. Something weird, weird paper with tentacles and spirals on it.

Yeah, let me ask you. But to be fair, if it's Germo del Tour, it may never show up. I mentioned manuscript. Yeah that's true. Yeah, it's it's lost with his haunted mansion project mansions of man or the Mountains of Madness project as well at Halo and all those other things.

Let me ask you you you said you worked for any Cool News, right, you wrote for any cool those Yeah. I wouldn't say worked for it because they never paid me. But oh right, Yeah, did you ever get a chance to Did you ever get a chance to write about Seagal while you wrote for them? Yeah? I should have mentioned that that was sort of actually started the genesis of it, because I mean I was interested in Seagal, But then also I had to hook up with a video store that I was getting these preview screeners of movies.

They were they were VHS back then, Yeah, and um and a lot of the cigal ones were coming in. So I was watched because I was into him. I was watching those and reviewing those because because it was something that I could review early before it came out. Yeah, and so the process of doing that is kind of what got me more fascinated with him. And yeah, I used to I also I used to work at a video store.

Um, and we used to get VHS screeners too, but they were only from like the Disney companies, So we would get stuff from like Merrimax, or and this was back in early two thousands, So we got we got the like gone in sixty seconds. We got like the Freddie Prince Junior riantic comedies. Uh. The one screener I know this is a little off topic, but the one screener I used to take home all the time was high fidelity. Um, because it's a good movie.

It's a great movie, and it was so much so that um, they just said, just just just take it, just keep it river. I wish we'd gotten like more like studio different studios screen of films, but like especially with Seagal films, because I definitely want to check them out because in the early two thousands that was like the infancy, I would say of his like direct to video because the first DRECTI video I remember, correct me if I'm wrong, Verne, but the correct The first one I remember was The Patriot. Yeah, that was that was literally the first straight to video one he did. Yeah, and that's a weird one because it has like one action scene in it, but because he's a doctor, right, like a doctor unalogist or something.

Yeah, but we've gotten and the villain is one of the guys from the ernest movies I believe. Oh wow, Yeah, it was around a few years after that I was reviewing, Like I remember, I did. Out for a Kill was one of the ones I was excited to review, and Belly of the Beast, which is one that I really love, and uh and up through UH. I think Urban Justice maybe Urban Justice I reviewed, And I forget if that was rain It Cool or if I had left by then, but that was that. That might have been the last one I did for them.

I'm not sure, Okay, so Verne, I'm curious because again you again for a lot of us who like Steven Seagal are intrigued by him as you are. He seems like an interesting guy. He has his massive personal problems that we have talked about multiple times. We even had a long discussion at the end of the last show about it. Um have you ever heard from anyone that he knows about your book?

Yeah, early on, even even when I had only self published it, there was UM. I wish I remembered the name of the person, but somebody emailed me and told me that they had. They had brought two copies to get one. They got him to sign it at some some something, and uh, he had he had a copy for himself and a copy for his brother who's trying to get signed, and Sigal was like, can I can I take this? And like talked him into taking it.

So that was the first I heard that he supposedly had seen it. And then UM, like this idea that Steven Seagal wouldn't just buy a copy? Can I have this thing you brought and me to have itside I think that was the first he knew of its existence, because it was it was like I saw a few hundred copies, you know, and then it's a very Stephen Seagal story, Like I just if imagining him sitting there like can I can I keep this? Like are you gonna tell him no? Are you gonna be the guy that says you can't?

I don't know that's how this guy felt. Yeah, And then uh, I've heard over the time about supposedly people have told me that they, like true members, had had the copies of the book on the side of movies and we're and we're looking at it and stuff, which kind of in a way kind of disturbed me because I didn't want to. It was it's like the uh, I always forget the name of the Star Trek rule of not interfering with a with a society Prime directive. Yeah, the prime directive, I don't you know, obviously is not gonna happen. But at the time, I was like, I wouldn't want them to start being self consciously looking at the things I was pointing out about the movies, you know.

But yeah, I'm surprised. I'm surprised the title of a Seagal film yet Seagal prime directive. That sounds just like um. Yeah, Like I told you, I've read up to under Siege, um, because you know, I want to be fresh and surprise for the podcast. But I was really happy to mention that when you were talking about Out for Justice, you mentioned that that was one of your favorite segall films, which kind of made me happy because I feel it's kind of underappreciated.

Um as a yeah, I think I think it doesn't. It doesn't get like the praise that like Marked for Death does, or the you know, Understige, because that's more big budget like you mentioned. But I think Out for Justice I I was reading, I'm like, yeah, it is. It's more grimy, it's dirty, it's dark, it's it's Seagal just absolutely just tearing ass through. I think Brooklyn wasn't supposed to be Um, and it is very well directed.

Um surprisingly uh. And one of my favorite pieces of trivia was um Seagall actually going up to William Forsythe and telling him, you know, you really need to work on your accent, which Forsythe goes tells him, trust me you do. And I thought that's perfect. And Um, considering the directors like previous work, I'm like, wow, that's kind of a jump um because he was directing I think was commercials Now, He's done some great John Flynn, He's he was a great director. He did, Uh, Ruling Thunder is his best movie.

If you've ever seen that Fatuator, that's the total classic I recommend to anybody. Yeah he uh, let me see. I'm I'm spacing on other good ones he did. He later did that movie brain Scan, which is kind of a crazy, weird, dark Oh my god, I love that film. Love that film wild.

It's like the only other thing Edward for Along's done. I mean, I mean besides pet Cemetery too and Detroit City. Yeah okay, pe Yeah, but I mean you look, I mean I think of Edward for along, I think of one thing, Yeah, the same thing all of us. Yeah, I kind of honestly, you know, brain scan. Um.

I always forget that he's in Detroit, Rock City. But that's like what like six years after Terminator, But that's old, that's early two. Yeah. Yeah, so it's like yeah, yeah, So I mean John playing another actor. You could write a book about Edward for long.

I'm sure, jeez, Louise, interesting guy. So I mean John Flynn actually, you know, he did direct it with definitely a certain style of just gritty, like I think you mentioned in the book is like from the seventies, you know, kind of that kind of um filmmaking style. Yeah, I think so, like most of it anyway, there's a little there's you know, the part where he is confronting the guy with the dog is a little cheesy and stuff seems like it's from this It seems like it's from another movie. Yeah. You mentioned how they're pissing on the head at the end is not a good way to cap up your silf.

But I mean like the opening, I mean I always go to the opening where he where he like interrupts the steak out to stop the pimp from from from Beating Up, grabs grabs him by the tie and throws him through a windshield of a car, and and the cameras like inside the car looking up through the hole in the windshield, and it freeze frames on him as it says Steven Seagal like, I, uh so, I forget which year, but several years ago I got to be at a marathon at the Cini family in la where they showed for for Seagal movies and I was lucky enough to be with them co hosting it. And um, we showed that movie and at that moment when that freeze frame happened and it said Steven Seagal, like, everyone just went crazy and it was like the greatest, the greatest theatrical moment.

You know. It was. Well, now, when you were when you were growing up, I don't know how old you are, Um, but did you like see any Seagal films in the theater or were they mostly like from rentals? I I didn't start seeing them in the theater until the nineties, like later in the nineties it, Um, I didn't, Uh, I was actually people, I was surprise. I was actually a few years later on Seagal.

I didn't get into him until like mid nineties. Yeah, my first Seagal film was under Siege in the theater, I mean, my first Seagal film was under Siege two. Actually, yeah, that was my favorite, I mean my first also, and I saw multiple times because it was it was great. Yeah, it's it's got a great it's got a great Eric but Josian performance. Let's let's heap a little bit of praise on good old Richard had him.

He can scars, his ears are probably burning. So I mean, look for you, Vern, I'm very curious, uh you know there, you know in your book you talk about these different ages of Seagal in his career because yeah, like kind of Trevor has been talking about, there is this delineation from his career in certain spots, doing certain things. So we're still kind of you know again, we go back and forth, but we're still in this very early Seagal period for you. Out of the first four before Seagal becomes this kind of big budget actor with under Siege, which of those first four is kind of the one that you return to the most, Yeah, oh, alp for Justice, but then followed by Hard to Kill I love Hard to Kill. Yeah, that's a that's a great movie.

Um the famous line notwithstanding, it's it is an excellent Uh. Plus it's got the great Bill Sadler. Yeah, I say, William Sadler is. And I think the thing that I like about Hard to Kill that seems strange when you watch it is the lack of a lack of a lack of a conclusion. But the climax seems a little stifled because he doesn't kill the bad guy, and it's first of all the ones that we've seen so far that is not the case.

I think. Yeah, yeah, you may have read the chapter in my book that I found a script, a shooting script or something for it that had a different version of it where he actually does, like a Nike do move on him and flips him in and pales his head. You know, it may it makes sense. I mean, the end of test test audiences were shown that, right, So I'm not sure. Yeah, I can't remember.

Yeah, I mean that that may not a bit knowledge when when you wrote your book. I mean, that's yeah, but yeah, I was on Wikipedia. I looked. I mean, I would pay money to see that seed That sounds pretty great, But I understand why they would have him. I think, yeah, I think this is more Seagal making his more political views well known, like, you know, don't kill politicians.

I want them brought to justice. Kill politicians. That's the simplest way to put it. I mean, he's a very varied man, Steven Seagal. Well you you at Ronnie didn't believe in it?

Yes, right, You described him as like progressive back back in the nineties. I think it's kind of and and now thinking to today's Siagal, Um, it's very very progressive, so progressive and fair. Yeah, he wants he wants to progress. Putin too, well, I mean, hey, you know what I mean. I may have made some mistakes there in my interpretations, but one of my favorite all clips of him in an interview, and every time he says Vladimir Putin, it's just have you.

I don't know if you've seen that clip vern do an accent or something, he goes Vladimir Putin. So the answer is yes, yeah, yeah. He loves code switching. He's a master of code switching, exactly. He is.

Sometimes sometimes he's Italian Americans, sometimes he's Russian, sometimes he's you know, from the Bayou or something. Yeah, but always American because you know that's what gives him the out to hell. Yeah, he always has a great accent because he always has the connection in the family with whatever he's trying to convey, like especially now for justice and all that with the mob ties or you know, the Asian uh connections or in Hard to Kill. How he's he's I believe you said, he's shown to me Catholic, but he starts doing like these Asians Buddhists. Um, yeah, healing exactly in in her friend's house, which gets fucked up beyond repair.

That's true. It's like I hope he will not stay there again. Um. So you know, Verne, we're you know, we're going to talk about under Siege a little bit. I'm curious for you, Verne, as you know again as the as the man who wrote the book on the man who would need books written about him to decode what he's all about in a lot of ways.

Um, I'm curious for you when Seagal goes from small, small budget films to the big budget action star of under Siege. In your mind, is it is it a failure or does it or where do you come down? On his big budget portion of his career. Good question. I wouldn't call it a failure.

I love, I love those movies, but my personal preference is for the earlier ones because we get to you know, under Sieges. We'll talk about this is like a great movie and one of the one of the best diehard rip offs, which is a subgenre that I enjoy a lot. And um, but I'm much you know, based on his his his talent specifically is this in addition to whatever you think of his screen presence, it's also like this, uh what was then very novel style of hand to hand combat that he introduced in the movies. And so to me, it's much more exciting to see him in an alley like fighting, fighting some guys with his hand movements and going into the meat store and stabbing the guy with the sausage and all that stuff and for justice, Like I mean, it's more and like you know, beating a guy with the bats as opposed to in this movie, we see a lot of you know, firing a missile that explodes and the helicopter comes in and blows up and stuff like that, which is all fun, cool action stuff.

But I feel like it's not as specific to what he's really good at, like just kind of the street level action is more what I'm into. Yeah, it's it's definitely it's a great film, don't get me wrong. It's definitely a lot more polished and a lot more audience accessible. Yeah, which is why everyone, a lot of people that aren't haven't seen as many of them think that's his best movie or saying, you know, like that one of the best. Jean Claude van Dam Steven Seagal similar careers in a way, right, They're both they both do martial arts and they are action stars.

They are both practicing, you know, martial artists and also action stars in action movies. Is it not a good idea, then, to as a martial artist to go into movies where they expect you to use guns all the time? Is that what this is? Because I kind of feel like it his like Seagal's movies that I've seen that are heavy in the gun play are just not that interesting. They're just kind of Yeah, I mean, obviously he seems to love guns.

If you watched his his weird police reality show and stuff. Yeah, a thing that actually exists in reality, So, um, you know. But but yeah, as for me as if viewer, I much prefer seeing martial arts like I'm I don't I can't think of a Sagal movie where this happens, but I'm I love that cliche of like two guys have guns on each other and they decided to put the guns down and have a martial arts school. Um. I'm with you, like I much prefer to see to see that.

Um and Van Dam does it too. I mean, like I recently watched Double Impact again, which is a great movie, and um, but a lot of that is like trying to copy the Hong Kong style of shootouts and stuff or Hard Target has some good guns stuff in it, obviously, but um, whether it also has him doing spin kicks and that's what I Yeah, that's what I want to see Dam dancing and doing the splits is my That is my nirvana. I mean, just watch that clip on loop for the rest of my life. I mean it is. The look on his face is just I think the other thing for me a little bit.

And as we're you know, approaching talking about under Siege, it seems like early on Segal wasn't taking himself as seriously as he does now, and like Under Siege, he's still having fun under Siege two, but there comes a point where it seems like he cannot um. He starts being unable to let people write comedy for him or even like quips. And it's like strange because I mean, in something like under Siege, they're pretty good. They're a little stilted and weird, but they're still funny and like they're still good one miners. Oh yeah, the cooking related Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, well I also cook.

That's a great how you said you're a cook? Yeah, well that's okay. Um yeah he um. I noticed rewatching Les say he does. There's a lot of like him with his cooking staff, joking around, and it seems kind of improv like dudes joking around with each bros joking around with each other kind of stuff.

Like he seems kind of better at that than delivering. Yeah, that's what I That's one of the things I noticed about the film is like when Seagal is like acting lighthearted and joking around with his buddies, I'm like, I found that kind of really fun interesting. That was the personality of Segal. I kind of wanted to see more of h but as soon as they put his ass in the freezer, you know, it kind of well, you know, his team does get killed, so I guess there's really nothing to joke about there. But it's it's it's it's definitely something of Sigal.

I definitely would. I definitely look for when I see his films. It's like, is he is there any part of his personality where he's you know, showing more of a accessible person. I guess you could say, because in his films, you know, I think, you know, would I be able to approach this man and talk to him or would he be look at me with a death stare and make me piss my pants? Um?

So I always kind of look for that in every Seagull film that I watch. Yeah, I think that's sort of the appeal. And then also what makes some people dislike him is that he's just like a very weird, strange man that's not a regular person. Yeah, Like, holy shit, that's the most perfect way to describe him. I mean, he like Schwarzenegger Stallone, I get the sense of, like even with Bruce Willis, like I get the sense of who they are as a person for the most part, Like I can form in my mind kind of who they probably are.

I could not tell you about Steven, like he is a genuinely like befuddling human being. I think that's part of the that's part of an appeal, that's part of a Yeah, it's like he's he's literally a man with you know, not a man with no name, a man with no background. And I mean we've kind of made that Clint easy would comparison before. Yeah, we have. Yeah, where it's like, is Steven Seagal kind of trying to do the modern day Clint Eastwood thing?

I don't think he has to try. I think that's definitely what he is. I think that's just how he is as a person. At least. I think he's streaming at a chair at least.

Yeah, being mysterious. I'm talking about Steven Seagale, not Clint Eastwood, by the way. Yeah, he I don't think I've ever seen him name drop clinias Wood. He talks about like Robert Mitchum and stuff. But he definitely seems like there's a line delivery, especially in his earlier ones, is very especially like something like Dirty Harry or some of his like other spaghetti western stuff or even his Yeah, it's I don't know.

Yeah, like you, like you said Vernon, there's this this thing about Seagal that I it's just an intangible thing. But I don't What I've never been able to kind of understand is when did people stop caring about what made Steven Seagal intangible? It's strange, right, at some point people stopped caring. I mean that's why his movie stopped being successful, at least from a box office. Yeah, I think people most A lot of people turned against him for On Deadly Ground, which is funny because it's like the thing they we're making fun of is actually the thing that he was undeniably correct about the environment.

Last week, Step was like, the report is out, and I'm vindicated for on Deadly Ground. But that's uh. Yeah, That's part of why his current existence is really like disappointing to me, is just like, of all the things, the fact that he now will support people that that deny climate change and stuff like that, It's like that seemed like something that he for real believed in, and I guess I guess it doesn't matter that much to him anymore. Yeah, he's a Buddhist at least he's a self proclaimed Buddhist. Yeah, which I know a couple of self proclaimed Buddhists, and those self proclaimed Buddhists I have asked them about Stevens Sagal and they have said, yeah, he's not a Buddhist, So you know, I don't I don't know.

I mean for me, Yeah, on deadly ground. I mean, I've seen it. I did a show an episode on on my other show about it. I can understand why people would turn their back on him for that, but yeah, it is. It is like there's some cognitive dissonance going on because, yeah, he's reading that newspaper in Cyrillic in a country that doesn't support climate change, and this is I who wanted to put a two hour speech about climate change at the end of his movie.

Yeah. Yeah, they've always wanted. I sorry, I've always wondered if that's true. About how long the original version was, I don't know, I don't. I've never been able to verify that, but yeah, that's always been a kind of a longgoing rumor is like, did Stevensagall actually have a you know, a longer cut of that speech that you know, the supposedly I I'd be hard pressed to not believe it because it seems like something Stevensokal would do.

This isn't as this isn't saying it as like an to the guy. It's just that when Steven Sacol is passionate about something, he's hard to stop. That's good. That's a good title movie hard to Stop. I don't know.

I mean had variations and yeah, yeah he did well. Yeah, it wasn't one of our first recons, like all films, just another variant on another title Beyond the Law, Beyond the Law, that was beyond the law. Yeah, because we changed it. They changed one word, Trevor, And you're gonna give me a hard time about me changing one word that sounds like something too close to above the law or beyond the law. Hey, this is our this is our rapport man.

Yeah, it's fair. This is what people tune in for. Uh, I forgot what I'm gonna say. Damn it? Do you think?

I mean? I wonder how pissed Seagal was when his I mean, this is the height of his career, right, and you would agree this is the this is like the peak Seagal. I mean, they give the guy the directorship of this movie and they it must it must have broken his heart. And this was like one of the biggest, one of the greatest actors have who ever lived playing the villain. And you think, you think, wow, this is this Michael Kine did not know what he was getting himself into.

Well, it's the Jaws. It's I think Michael Kine takes the Jaws the revenge thought process of it. Where um. When regarding to Jaws Revenge, Michael Kane says, I haven't seen it. By all accounts, it's terrible, but I have seen the house it built and it's wonderful.

Yeah, so say I enjoy it. I like that. I maybe I haven't seen it, so I can't pass judgment. You helped build that house. First.

Just think I'm the audience for for Michael Caine's just for the money filmography. Hey there, there there are people out there. I mean, look, Michael Caine is fun and on deadly ground. He might not think so, but he's fucking great in that movie. Well.

I mean, that's the thing about a lot of Sigall films is that the he They've had some of the most in entertaining villains like William forsythes as one note as the villain was just a guy who wants to fuck things up and cause chaos, doesn't want anything else. He's just a crackhead on a rampage. He was still fun to watch because William forsythe is playing it to the hilt, coming on to under siege. Tommy Lee Jones, one of my favorite actors, just absolutely having a ball playing this um X. I think he was like XU Secret Service or x CIA or x UM Special Forces.

Who the disguise is He's a promoter or something like that in a in a blues band or something. Yeah, Bad Billy and the Bail Jumpers, Bad Billy and the Bail Jumpers, and his his fake harmonica skills are second to none. And then you on the same film you have Gary Busey, who it's you know, it's Gary Busey. And like you said in the in the film, he can't play anything but a villain unless he is playing Buddy Holly. Yeah, and call Meani also yeah, supporting.

Yeah, that's a great cal Media is just a uh, just a great actor. I love col Meni. He plays that. He plays the asshole so well. I mean see Conair.

Uh. He just plays it so perfectly. Um, yeah, I mean under Sieges is it's a fun movie. Yeah. You know.

The thing that I that I really noticed watching it the other day is, Um, normally in a movie when they have those scenes where they cut away to the war room where where all the generals are talking about what's going on, that's usually like the boring movie part of the movie where you're kind of like, you know, wanting to get back to the other stuff. And but in unders in under Siege, it really works like those scenes are they're corny, but they're like exciting scenes. Yeah. Like and you gotta give it, and you gotta give credit to Nick Nankuso. Um you know yeah playing Tom uh Tom breaker was a m breaker Yeah break ci um bastard Cia bastard.

Uh. The funny thing is the only thing I had known Nick Mancuso from was this or the Apocalypse films? Um, from the from the Early to the Do you remember those Verne at all? No? Ay?

Is it like a like a Christian it's a Christian fundamentalist thing and he plays the anti christ um cool to which actually actually one of the films is called Tribulation and It stars Gary Busey, Margo Kidder and Howie Mandel And actually I think, okay, I think one of the films was called Judgment and it had Corbyn Burnston and Jessica Steine, and I think mister T is in it as a bag kind movies. No, these are the Apocalypse films. It's called the Apocalypse uh trilogy or whatever is mister T the president might as well be, I mean about it's about his theocracy as it can get. So, yeah, go ahead for the record. For the record, Trevor, this is from the makers of Left Behind.

Apparently this was something else they worked on that sounds just like the same port. What the fuck? I was excited when I learned I was looked up. When I'm writing about a movie, I always look up IMDBs IF everyone and try to find the weirdest things that they've been in. And yeah, I love that.

Yeah about the book, is that you you said you connect um people Sigals worked with before um at the end of the chapter. Oh yeah, thank you. Yeah. And apparently it happens more often than I thought it did. Yeah, especially with there's a lot of stunt men that will end up repeating obviously, but yeah, yeah, but I um, I was excited to learn that Nick Mancuso was the voice on the phone in the original Black Christmas.

He's like the right, right, I remember mentioning that the weird voice that you're hearing or whatever. Billy. Yeah, yeah, so so for you, Vern, I mean again, we have these we have this area of Seagal's career from under siege on deadly ground, under siege to executive decision, a glimmerman and fire down below you. This is this kind of next set of his movies is under Siege, the best of all of them, is the most competently made, or is on deadly ground kind of where you where you hang your hat. Well, if you're saying competently made, then um, it might be under siege.

Um. I love Under the Ground because of the I mean, I'm sure you'll do an episode about it, assumed, But it's like, um, I mean, I think it has legitimate the feel of a legitimate big studio action movie with a lot of cool stuff in it, and it has all these great like you mentioned Michael Caine, but there's also like early Billy Bob Thornton and he gets some funny lines that seem improvised and like Arley Army has like some incredible dialogue in that movie, and um, John McGinley outside was trying to think, Um, yeah, it's it's like it's such a fun movie. And and and then also it has this kind of all the political stuff that I mentioned, kind of like we haven't you'll get to the scene. There's a scene I absolutely love where he gets in this bar fight with Mike Starr the character Mike Star the Charactercter Max Star, and it's and yeah, and the point of this he's like humiliates him and then kind of they make makeup and talk about the possibility for change in a man's life, you know.

And I absolutely love that because that's like, that's so like who does that in an action movie? And a lot of a lot of people think like that's a negative thing, but to me, it's like, that's awesome. I want to see something like that in an action movie. So so that's why that one's my favorite. But do you think that would have changed the outcomes of like um Mark for Death or out for justice if after the bar fights he just tried to talk to the bartender one about fighting Ko or finding Richie that scene and on Deadly Ground.

I think I mentioned it on my show when we did the episode. I think for me, it's like the best thing that Segal is done is that scene. And I mean, yeah, if I had to pick, you can't really pick your favorite scene out of an entire career where you like a lot of the movies, but that's definitely if I had to, that might be it it. I think for me it speaks to in my mind what Seagal either was all about or I think now in a lot of ways again with the cognitive dissonance, especially with his environmental message kind of getting lost. To me, it seems like that scene is either what Segal was or what Seagal aspires to be your beliefs in like it his core being is like we can all do better, and like he just doesn't subscribe to that.

It doesn't seem in a lot of ways anymore. Yeah, but it's like it's it's like a very it's a very touching scene in a way that like a scene in a movie with Michael Caine with shoe polish hair dye on doesn't normally like that. That that nine times out of ten, that's not in that kind of movie. Yeah, exactly, That's what I know about it. I think one thing we should mention is that, you know, a lot of a lot of credit has to be given to some of the directors he's worked with.

UH, like, especially with Andrew Davis, who he worked with. UM with uh, I believe his first about the Line and an under Siege. And Andrew Davis has proven himself to be just a very competent action director. He knows how to how to film shots and how to um makes it all look good. Um.

I mean he made Harrison Ford a believable action star. Well. I mean, Harrison Ford is a good action star in the things that he's in. But I would not consider Harrison Ford an action star because if you look at the way Indiana Jones throws a punch, looks like an actor throwing a punch. I like, I believe in The Fugitive that Harrison Ford is an action star, and I give Andrew Davis all that credit because of his his direction is impeccable in The Fugitive.

The Fugitive is is a almost perfect movie a lot of ways. It's a it's a terrific film. Um. I mean, like I said Andrew Davis, I don't think gets enough credit as a director, as a competent action director. Um, he's not as over the top style as like John wu or even hell Michael Bay.

But then again, that guy's more um style than substance. UM. But I think he's definitely um. He knows that he knows about pacing, and I think that that that, like me, that makes for a lot, you know, especially in a Segal film. Yeah, I think I think he's good with kind of a texture to his movies.

Also, where like in Above the Lot, he really creates this. He's from Chicago, and he really treats Chicago like you know, the cliche is like treating the city like a character. But he really establishes this world of like these you know, when Segal is fighting a guy in an Ali you see you hear like a dog barking down the street and a guy up in a building going down Adam and stuff like that. He really creates this world. And he does the same thing and in this with the with the just the world of this aircraft carrier and all the people that are working on it, and like the people of the kitchen staff and all the soldiers over here, and he makes you care about the minorist of characters, with which seems effortless the way he does it, because you're they're only on screen for like a mentor or two, and they get sporadic scenes throughout the film, but you still kind of want them to make it out of this alive.

Um, Like especially the crew he rescues from the from the one brig. Yeah, and you know he's they're the ones that help him, like do that big shootout. Uh So I think, um, you're right about Chicago being a character. Um, Like he did that again in The Fugitive. I remember, um the great overhead shots of downtown Chicago, especially during St.

Patrick's day, beautifully done beautifully And Code of Silence also, which is weirdly similar to Above the Law but with Chuck Morris and there's a robot in it, but Henry Silva doesn't it. Yeahs Andry Silva is the bad guy and everything that's that's a good Yeah. I kind of like Chain Reaction. That's another Andrew Davis movie. Oh yeah, I haven't.

I haven't seen it since it came out, where I was disappointed at the time, but I definitely revisit that sometime. Yeah, it's it's kind of weird like it has uh, it has um Rachel Weiss very early on in her career. Yeah, I haven't seen it, but I yeah, it's yeah, it's got Keana Reyes, Rachel Weiss, Margan Freeman. Uh is John anything since two thousand and six though really no. Last movie that he did was The Guardian that Aaron Ashton Kutcher, Kevin Costner movie.

Oh, I mean it's not that William Freakin fell about the Possessed Tree. It's a it's a remix. Yeah, Ashton Kutcher place the Tree. That's his range so Verne with with Under Siege, we have a movie, like Trevor's mentioned, that has Tommy Lee Jones opposite Steven Seagal. And we've seen, now, you know, with the movies that we've either talked about for our show or we've seen, you know, in our own time or you know, in our own lives, we noticed that, like Trevor mentioned, Segal when he's up against someone who is a great actor, seems to really flourish as as an action star too, like especially in Under Siege two with Eric but goes in and this with Tommy Lee Jones.

It's a little disappointing to see in his more recent stuff they don't give that some thought like they do here, because I would contend that Tommy Lee Jones is as good as Seagal is in this movie. Yeah, I mean he's he's now working in a world where partly because of the way budgets have gone, and partly because if his own personal choices that he's probably filming scenes all by himself and not you know, like the people that are playing the villains or people that could come in for four days for a certain amount of money or whatever, and so it's not going to be the same thing obviously. Well, I mean, I mean they can't afford the pedigree of actors like they could back and when he was in his prime.

Um, it's just unfortunate to see it now, like he plays well off of all these people like Gary Busey and Steven Seagal played really well off of each other. Yeah, I mean see from the beginning, there's no hiding this guy's a prick, uh, I mean, like it's not a when when it's revealed that he's one of them, you think, you know, you're thinking, well, that's he's an asshole. Um. I was thinking when he when he uh, after he has been wearing the dress and bobs, and which made some guy go say that like, oh, I guess he's really cool after all, which I didn't understand. He's letting his hair down, but then I'm sorry.

Yeah, And the scene after that was talking to the captain or whatever, the guy who captain Yeah, and he's still wearing the thing, and made me think of that. He was a big adventure where he after they get through the roadblock and he's still like dressed as a woman afterwards, and he's okay with it, and he's looking at him with like that really creepy look. Um, well, Pepe's still wearing the dresses that with the one you're talking about. Yeah, well, just like the kind of Yeah, I like him, but he just the idea that it doesn't it doesn't seem unusual to him at all. He's not gonna no uncomfortable where I wish part of me kind of wishes he'd have stayed in the outfit for the entirety of the film.

Definitely, I don't know that would have many more instring uh with Seagal, though we have this thing where it's like the he really plays well with these other character act. Yeah he does. But but but vern, I'm curious because I have my own opinion, and I I'm curious what yours is. Uh. Steven Seagal and his romantic leads in the movie, it's it.

You've seen all the movies. We haven't seen all of them yet, we're working through them. Is there ever a belief vable romantic comp like a romantic comedy, that's an idea romantic Steven Seagal? Good god? Um, is there ever a romantic lead because that he gets along with?

Because Erica Eleniac sure is not one of them. Can I can I say something quick before you answer? That was the most out of nowhere, unnecessary, um ending scene of a movie. It's like this at the end the kiss, I'm like, where the fuck did that come from? Ericaac is still asking herself.

Yeah, there's no there's that at all. Yeah, I mean, I guess the only answer would be, um, Kelly LeBrock because they're married at the time or shortly afterwards, I forget. But um, even then, it's kind of weird. And then uh, yeah, once you get into some of the prime DTV like the better DTV stuff. They still have like a lot of weird things where he has a woman that's much younger than him and there's a weird kissing scene that she seems uncomfortable in.

She felt uncomfortable, He felt uncomfortable, You felt unable. Everybody's uncomfortable. It's just a bad feeling all around. Uh, speaking of uncomfortable, you can't remove whose Seagal is not in the movie from him in the movie in some respects. Well, yeah, you think I know who he is, so well, whatever, he's paired up with a young, younger woman in a film, you have to think yourself, that has to be Sigall's input.

This is not from This is all a Seagal. You definitely get that. It's easy to assume. Um, there's this one scene and Hard to Kill where we first meet Kelly LeBrock and Steven Seagal is in his coma and she basically checks him out. Yeah, doesn't she like almost actually assault him?

Very civil of you, an, Yeah, And she's like she's very unprofessional as nurses go, Like this woman should have been fired a long time ago, very meal. But since you know she's Kelly LeBrock, and she was still in her prime hotness. You know, guys will want to see that and think themselves, well, I wish I was in a coma. What. Yeah, well, I'll say this in his not really in his defense, but I was lucky enough to be able to see his band play one time years ago.

You'll it's in the back of the book, my review of the show. And afterwards he did he signed autographs, and I was next to these two women who were so into him, and they were they they they had a they had a towel, a sweat towel that he had thrown into the crowd, and one of them caught it, and they were asking other people in line if they had a knife, and somebody had a knife so they could cut it in half so that each of them could get one half of it. So yeah, now that knife has like all sweat on it. So my only point being that there are because of his movie starting, I guess, but there are some people that do find him very attractive, so I guess. Yet, let's talk about his music and his placement of his music in the film, because one of the last episodes we did was called Attrition, and at the end of the film, suddenly they're in a dance club with Steven Seagal's band playing, and they're all dancing and just enjoying it.

And I didn't realize like how much of his music was he made part of his films, how early in his career he did it. I thought that was more of a recent thing, but apparently he's been doing it since, like I think the Outford Justice days or before then. Yeah, there's early on. There's a lot of songs that he has involved an instant and they're not terrible by any stretch of the imagination. I mean, it's easy to say ha ha sak All being a musician, you know he sucks, but you know I've heard a lot worse.

I mean that's not high praise, but um, but they're not bad. I mean, yeah, that was That was the amazing thing about seeing his band is like you're looking up there and he's wearing like an orange sleeveless like um, like Asian style shirt. Yeah, like you would imagine he would be wearing. And he's playing a flying v guitar and he's very tall. You know, you're seeing him a personally going holy shit, that's Steven Seagal.

There's like people there with their out for Justice laser disc they want to get signed. And his I mean, to my amateur ears, like it seemed like he was a really good like guitar player, and definitely his band was really really tight, Like his band was definitely good and uh so it was very surreal experience. And then he's singing and he's he has a song called Alligator Ass and different, you know, and you're he's not as good as a singer as he as a guitar player, and he but you know, you're hearing that. You can tell that Steven Seagal's voice singing and it's kind of amazing. Yeah.

Well, and didn't I mean Stevie Wonder worked with him on that two thousand and five albums, So I think he plays harmonica if I remember, right, Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know the thing about Seagal, there are these things about him that, to your point, Trevor would be kind of you know, low hanging fruit. And I think that again, I think it's because of who Seagal is, not what he's doing. Like you've seen tons of actors go and have you know, pretty fruitful, fruitful music careers or vice versa. You know, musicians becoming actors.

But yeah, I mean once it's you know, like you said, Verd there's six foot four Steven Seagal Satan with his fucking guitar. It's like, Okay, this is a little different. You know, this is not he's the dude's a weird guy. But he's fascinating. Yeah, that's the thing.

And I've always been fascinated with the way every time he does get into a new thing, he kind of claims to have always been like he'll have a story about like when I was a kid, I was sitting on a on the porch with this blues man who taught me such and such, just the same way. I mean, the story is a lot of what he says about Japan. It's verifiable that he really was one of the first, well he says, the first Westerner to run a dojo and that in Japan, and that kind of came through being married to the daughter of the owner from what I understand. But but it is a real thing that he really was there. But then he also claims to have known the founder of Ike do um and he but there are there are photos of him, like seeing him speak and um.

But then also he claims to have at one time he's claimed to have been in the CIA. And then when he started getting into playing Russian mobsters, it was like he started talking about how he had Russian background, which hadn't been a thing before. And when he wrote he wrote a book a few years ago, and in that he claims that he has Native American blood in him, which I don't think he had ever claimed, even in in the movies where he was married to Native American women and when he was wearing Native American garb. Yeah. Yeah, So he's always kind of evolving what his backstory is, which isn't it.

If it was a guy that I hung out with, it would make me very uncomfortable. But when it's a guy that whose movies I watch, it's interesting. Yeah, that's a good point. It's like if you were if you were around this person and he were sitting with you at a table and he started spouting all this, you'd be like, oh damn, look at the time I got to catch a cab or you would just be like what are you your full shit? Like, what are you talking about?

Yeah, but you don't know how dangerous that person is, and that's the I mean, I think that's the thing about Seagal that like, if I'm sitting here thinking about all the other action stars, his contemporaries, Van Damn, there's no question where that guy's from. Schwarzenegger, there's no question where Schwarzenegger's from Stallone cutting to no question where Stallone is from. But Seagal, it is weird if you think about it, and it's interesting. Segal can kind of play all these different like you said, ver Russian or Native American. Like to his credit, I kind of just believe him because he's there's something about him.

Yeah, like you, but part of you wants to believe it because yeah, it's movies. It's its more exciting. Yeah yeah, it adds the mystique of the of the actor, not not just a character. Yeah yeah, I mean, but he does it, like you said, Verney does it in all kinds of stuff. Like thinking about it now, like the whole Russia thing does kind of feel like an extension of his Russia movies in a way, because like whatever I think of his DTV stuff especially is like mid two thousands, I just think of like this was probably shot in Eastern Europe.

Somewhere. Yeah, most likely. I mean, I mean have a good relationship with the countries you shoot your movies in. Yeah, and I mean probably cheaper to film there too. Well.

Well, yeah, they're filming and they're filming in Bulgaria for a reason. It's because they want to fly everybody on the crudibul Gara. Let me ask you a question, Burn Sure. There's a lot of talk in the in your book about you know, his co star buddies in the film, people who play his friends, his confidence. Who do you think was like the strongest and the best confidence he had in a in a in a film.

Probably Keith David in in Mark for Death. Yeah, that's like one of the maybe the only one where the guy is like where the sidekick guy is of equal bad assist pretty much. Well, yeah, because it's Keith David. Yeah. Yeah, you can't really, you can't really can't.

You can't really see his friend and hard to kill being a being a badass. Wasn't that the guy who played the cop in Wayne's World? Oh yeah, I think you're right. Yeah, yeah, Um, I mean he could give you a combody cavity search, but he don't think he could. You know, kick your ass like seagalcan uh yeah, um, he's definitely hold on.

I have a question, Burne speaking of questions, Okay, this is something that Trevor and I have noticed in almost every movie we watched, at least the later ones and the more recent movies. Of the early ones and definitely his later stuff that were like the recent stuff, Segal never lets his opponent get much like the Final Boss of the movie The Final Villain. They have a very protracted fight scene, like Seagal doesn't want to look weak when he fights someone in a movie. Have you is that something that like you have noticed too, or is that just a weird coincidence now? I think I think that's definitely.

His style is to be like the unstoppable tank bulldozer, you know that plows through everyone. And I think this is this is kind of controversial, like a lot of people claim a lot of people like to say that the only way to do it is like the diehard style of like if they're really vulnerable and they get injured and it's really difficult for them, that's the only way to do to do a good action star. And I think usually that is the case. But also Seagal is an example in his best movies of where it can be cool to see the guy that you just know, oh man, they're in trouble now because you know Niko or whoever is coming in and it's gonna take care of this, you know. Or another example I like to point to is Blood and Bone with Michael Ji White.

If you've ever seen that, it's a like a no you I highly recommend Blood and Bone starring Michael Ji White. It's like a two thousand and nine I think is when it came out. It's straight to video movie, and it's kind of in the tradition of the great like the best Van Damn movies. It's like an underground fighting movie. But but Michael Ji White is a guy who just absolutely plows through every opponent that comes after him, and it's, you know, you are never upset that he doesn't get injured.

It's it's always fun to watch. What's funny. What's funny Verne is when you say it that way, it kind of doesn't bother me because it's almost like like some of the best James Bond movies. He doesn't fight the villain like you know, I mean, in a way in a way. I think the issue that maybe I've had and I've never voiced it correctly, is in if they here's a final villain, like say an under siege too, right, you have Eric Bogozian who is not a physical threat to Steven Seagal.

I think the three of us would agree. Stephen Seagal would turn Eric Bogozian inside out unless they were doing a monologue. Right, sure, exactly playing to his strengths. One might say, but yet Everett Gill in that movie is the Heavy. I think my issue in some of these movies with Seagal is there is no secondary villain, no heavy.

And I think if you have the Heavy and Segal fight and then it's okay they had like a you know, brawling fight, and then you have the other guy out in the background waiting or watching hoping that his guy wins, I think that would fix it because I've just every time Segal gets in like a fight with someone, it's like they're dead immediately. I'm just like, whoa guys like, let this climax, breathe a little bit. Yeah, that's true. That is kind of the style of like the bad guy in like in Hard to Kill it's like he's a sleeves ball and he's mean to women and drinks champagne and the hot tub and you hate him, like he's a piece of shit, but he's not necessarily like you don't ever believe he's going to be able to take on Segal physically.

No. Um, so that's just kind of the style, is like you want to see him eventually get past all the henchmen and then just destroy that guy and then and then he doesn't in that case. But um, that said, under Siege, the final fight with with Tommy Lee Jones, you wouldn't expect it, but like that's a great knife fight scene. You know, it's pretty short, but but it seems convincing that Tommy Lee Jones is like a good knife fighter, like you know. Yeah, plus they mentioned his background of Special Forces.

Yeah, so it gives him some credibility. And uh, plus that knife in the head and then that was both they're both bluesmen, so they have a lot in common, right of course. Another thing I noticed about is Understiege is that it's it's different in the fact that Seagal has more help in this one. Usually in his films, he more is a loaner works alone, you know, kicks ass alone and all that stuff only goes to his friend when he needs like information, like exposition. But in Understiege, he actually has people helping him, also with guns, also fighting, and that was kind of it's it's it's it's more different from the usual Sigal find him surprised Segal was okay with it.

Um like that surprised he was okay with it? Well, would you disagree? No, I mean that was I mean again, we have this theory that like Segal doesn't like Seed in control of the screen to anyone else, And I don't think it's a theory. I think it's just I think that's what's going on. But it was kind of it was refreshing to see him partly ensemble rather than Loan Loan army.

You know. Yeah. I think that's also why it's not really my favorite understandable. Yeah, yeah, they do. They give They give Erica a Lineac's character a lot more time than I would have thought they should.

I have a question for you about her, because I've never been able to understand this. At the end, do you think she's supposed to have enlisted because she's wearing a sailor outfit at the funeral, and it seems like they wouldn't be still having the funeral without having gone ashore, would they. Well, I mean, she didn't have any other clothes, sort of like just put this on, but they're having the funeral before going ashore and letting her leaves. Like, yeah, that's what I don't figure. I mean, I have no idea.

I've never understand I've always wondered which I feel like it either means that she what you're saying, that they put the clothes on her, but then why would they be having the funeral not a clue, or it might be like she she she discovered what a badass she is in that experience, and now she's enlisted in working killed one guy. She killed one guy. Do you know what I wonder? She became very serious then, you know what I you know what I find strange. You're talking about her costume.

M Her costume in the movie is very strange because they're just like, okay, here like look like a look look like a male sidekick. Yeah. And I was just sitting there thinking to myself, like was this originally written for a male sidekick? Because that would make the stripper subplot a lot more interesting. But it would make but it would it would make sense as to why that kind of is just like that is just in addition to they could have just had a band come onto the boat.

I think it's just supposed to be her arc that she goes from being like a helpless person to discovering that she can handle herself, and so they visually represent that by having her to be wearing tough, tough guy clothes. And plus yeah, plus I like how you mentioned how it kind of brings the ET thing full circle being that and hard to Kill. They're watching the Oscars and his son wants ET to win and Erica lenniacs and ET and full circle to Rika Lenniac in Undersiege Psychic. You know it all ties together? Therek go man, there you go?

Um? Maybe Ben Kingsley uh from Gandhi wool. Yeah, back in the day he when he was making real movies, that would he would have been a good. When Sega was making real movies, that would have been a good. Villain was making real movies like under Siege three with that would be Kingsley would have been a good I'm kind of surprised that it never happened given.

I mean again, we were we talked about it before we started recording, but we are. We Trevor and I are friends with Rich Adam, who wrote under Siege two. Under Siege two started out as something else, it was not under Siege two. Under Siege was put on that script and it turned into an under Siege script. I wonder if they kicked the idea around for under Siege three at some point.

I would assume that they did, because under Siege two was a financial success. Yeah, There's been a lot of rumors over the years about different supposed like ideas I supposed had, But I wouldn't be surprised if I Understiege, if they had an Understiege three script and it just became another film entirely. Has that happened? That happened a lot in the nineties. Um, there was even there, There wasn't even there was even a lethal weapons script that became die Hard with a Vengeance through you know.

Um, yeah, we got five Diehards and we only got two Undersieges. What really is the travesty here? I mean, there's only a certain well there's actually only four Diards. Oh, God, don't just I just don't acknowledge. I don't acknowledge the fifth Wait there was a fifth one?

I didn't Yeah, the one with one. There's no fifth onthe bro Chris. I'm not going to let they made that movie. They made that choice. They released a goddamn movie.

We all have how hard it is to make a fucking movie. It doesn't just sprout out of the well spring of someone's mind. They sat on stage on set for days filming that movie, and so burn, Yeah this is good. Vern. I don't know if you can see behind me, but I have a Blu Ray Diehard collection that in a Nakatomi tower gift sets, four movies in and a bonus disc of a fan film that you know wasn't very good.

Um fan film that just happens to include Bruce Willis. Yeah, well it's not. He's not exactly expensive anymore. Apparently not. No, some some some fan director named John Moore who wanted to make his own, uh, he made his own omen fan film.

He made you know it is film. Is it interesting that Bruce Willis's career has kind of morphed into sigals too, It's kind of gone that same path, right, I mean Bruce Willis. Bruce Willis is in a lot of direct to streaming stuff now right. Yeah, he's the guy I see on the DVDs now that I would have seen in the two thousands, worst Cigal if he went to Walmar and looked down their DVD aisle, it's Bruce Willis straight to DVD movies, I guarantee you. In the mid two thousands it was Sigals.

Yeah, he's very proliftic, and that's kind of upsetting because I love Bruce Willis. The man is I agree, you know, the man is just he's got personality. He's kept mostly his his figure. Um. But the problem with with with him is is it just he doesn't seem to give a shit anymore.

Yeah. I wouldn't go as far as to say that the worst thing that Bruce Willis ever did was beating die Hard because it typecast him for the rest of his career and he will not an action star. I mean, he was still able, he was still able to do pulp fiction and the sixth sense and all kinds of He had his whole, quiet, quiet, sad Bruce when I was content he might have had those earlier if he had never been an action star. I mean he was in moon Lighting. I mean that was hyper popular.

I mean I think for Bruce willis making die Hard yet it vaults him to the fame and fortune of die Hard for Fox's sake, but it type so it also began a uh the epidemic of Diehard on a Diehard on this I heard that. I don't consider that an epidemic at all. I consider that a grand tradition. Well, I mean it's interesting, it's interesting. So people in your mind, what is the best version of that?

Is it Underseige? Uh? That's a good question. I mean under Siege is obviously one of the best, but I I sort of prefer under Siege too. Honestly, I'm a big fan of under Siege too.

Um Speed speed is obviously a great one. Uh. I enjoy sudden Death uh chunk of Indian um not to be confused and welcome to Sudden Death with Michael Jay White yea, which is okay, but cheap, cheap, cheesy. Uh what am I forgetting? There's there's some other good ones.

I think one of my favorites is is Toy Soldiers, which is die Hard in a school. I guess you could call it. I thought that was kind of underrated. I don't know if you've seen it Burn have you I have? Yeah, Yeah, that's pretty fun.

Um, let me see there's die Hard, I mean, is Cliff does Cliffhanger count all? You mean, so that might be the best that's up there. Die Hard on a Mountain, I mean, I don't know. There were also that Thomas Ian Griffith cracker Jack film, which was die Hard on a Mountain literally is basically the same plot points as die Hard. Even getting Christopher Plummer to play the bad guy is executive decision.

Technically die Hard on another Plane. Yeah, I was gonna say that they probably counts. I mean, it's definitely in that coming out of that that style of movie, whether or not it's based on the template exactly. I mean, Colin Air I don't know if that's really die Hard ish, It's it's more kind of just I don't know, the rock that's Hard on Alcatraz Michael based film. It's definitely coming out of that Air Force one.

Die Hard on yet another plane, that's no die Hard. Diehard with the President is President? Did President die Hard? Yeah? Diehard six President McLean?

Yeah, but I would say definitely, Yeah, my favorites of the Undersiege movies and Speed are probably my favorites of this. But I just in general, when it's well done, I enjoy that Started template, following the Diehard template and die Hard two, and yeah, elevates under Siege in your opinion, I'll be Understiage two to be better than Understiege one because I'm not disagreeing with you, because I fucking love Understage two. Yeah. Um, I mean it's hard for me to say it's better. I just personally like it even more because it's it's hard to say that that Eric Bagoshen is better than Timmy ly Jones because TIMI ly Jones is so great and having so much fun.

But but just it's more more novel to see Eric begoshin as as the super genius villain in an action movie. This is a guy for being a dramatist voice generation, and he gets these great monologues and just the sardonic, sardonic humor, and he gets to have a pretty hilarious death where he blows up in a fiery occasion. And and you mentioned McGill. He's like he's like in very little else yeah, the part, Yeah, the part where he sprays the pepper spray in his mouth like a banaka. I believe it.

I believe it. With never Miguel, I'm like, yep that. Yeah. And you know, I was thinking when you when you were talking earlier about the about Underseige, how he works with the team. I think Understiege two is a little less like that.

Like he's got Morris Chess, mat and Um to a degree, Caine and Katherine Heigel. Yeah, so he's working with them, but otherwise he's just them, and he's teaching them how to how to aim a gun like he does with Erica Liniac. Yeah. And then uh, it's a little more based in like I'm a badass going through this train doing some cool hand may He's on a guy and breaking his wrists and climbing on the and it's got the part where he gets off the train and jumps that truck on off of the cliff. Yeah.

I love how he running. I love how he outruns the trains that are crashing into each other just by mere feet out running them, sheer force of will. Cheer for um. I told Chris the story, but this is my story. How I went and saw underseag Too.

I was fifteen. This was like, um, after my freshman year of high school. UM. I called my body buddy Bobby up because originally it wasn't going to be under Siege Too. It was I wanted to see Clueless because you know, it's a movie I could get into and it looked fun.

So I'm like, hey, Bobby, you want to go see Clueless? He goes no, I want to see Underseage too. I go no, I want to see Clues. He goes, no, under Siege Too. I said, Bobby.

He goes no, under Siege Too. So I'm like, and me, this is in high school. I had no self esteem, no backbone. I'm like, all right, finally see Undersiege two. So I had my dad buy the tickets and that's how we got in.

Um a lot of great R rated movie stories with Bobby. Um. But that's how I saw Undersea Too. And I felt like I was getting away with something because I was watching this um incredible action film with no parents around me. I know that's silly to hear, but yeah, under Siege Too was like it almost felt like a rite of passage watching a sigal action film in the theater, not just on video, you know, because you know, it feels more like an accomplishment when you see it in a theater before you're seventeen.

Yeah. Um, but yeah, that was my first theatrical experience and it might have been my last. I'm not sure, because that was that was towards the natter or well, I mean he had a I mean he has to two more years of stuff. Um. But again, like like we've already kind of mentioned that saw everything after that, I mean in the theater yet, love as far as I guess, Machete was his last one that played in Oh I saw that one.

Yeah, Um, Fired down Below. My favorite thing about Fire down Below is how many just like country western singers are in that movie. Yeah, that's the country, that's the goals country movie. Yeah, I mean you've got Mark, was it Mark, Collie, Chris Christoffersons, Yeah, Travis, Trip, Marty Stuart, Randy Travis, Like what twin daughters are in it? Yeah?

Oh my god, that's right. It's I remember the first time, I think the first Seagal movie I ever saw was Fired down Below, And because I remember seeing the preview and it's like this summer Steven Ciagal is fire down Below, and I was like, fuck, this is great, Like whatever the fuck this is. This was like two thousand and eighteen. I was just on Apple TV just grolling through trailers. I was like, fuck, this all looks cool.

But it's that whole thing with all the country Western singers is strange cool. That's strange. Back on the on the understieged topic, it's, um, it's interesting how this is kind of like we're discussing how this kind of like his big push into the mainstream and kind of more for normal people to watch. But he's still when he's in the military, he's still allowed to just wear normal black clothes. He gets gets criticized for it, but he just wears his black shirt and he and he just gets to talk back to everyone.

And he's legendary because he punched out his his his CEO. Yeah, yeah, are you talking about a job. Are you talking about the time where they got the bad intel information and he punched him when he got back, or are you talking about when he punched Gary Busey? Oh the first one, but he also punched is Gary Busey? That's true?

Yeah, but looking in his so I just love this idea of stevens Agal making hour how much did he say? How much? Goddamn boy, it was a big he says it to He says it to um, He says it to the commander Patrick O'Neill's character. He's like, it's like, Captain, I have like fifty yellards of Buoya Base to make like what of course, and they've ruined all those pies. That's just wrong.

I'm asking your man take my pies out. Take out my pies. They could have those pies. There's no reason to let them burn. No, okay.

One thing. Did he even give a reason why he didn't want to change into attire or was he just being a stubborn asshole. I think it's just to show that he, even when he's in the military, he's an individual. You know. Yeah, it's like, dude, just change your fucking attire.

You're not you're not you're not cow telling to the man here. You're just for a captain's party. Steven a individual man, Huh. Another thing? And another thing, they gave him the most fucking obstinate, stubborn guy to watch him while he's in the freezer.

I wanted to talk about that guy. Yeah, yeah, I hear fun shots. Check it out. It's a shippaide bro. I think that guy's a really accurate portrayal of a certain type of like boot Liquer kind of guy that's like he's just believes what he was told and he so he's like this, you know, he doesn't believe, he doesn't believe sgaland it seems he's lying to him.

I just love how the part where he rolls his eyes size and goes right back. Dude, there's gunshots. You're not even gonna check. Tom Wood is much better in The Fugitive than he is in this movie. Let's just put it that way.

Yeah, he plays one of like he ends up being with Tommy Lee Jones in The Fugitive on the like the squad of people that go to catch Harrison Ford, and then he's in Yeah, and then he's he's the guy that dies in US Marshals. Okay, I didn't. I haven't seen those in a while, but I haven't seen US Marshals because it just it's so good. It's pretty good. Yeah.

All I know is that Robert Downey Junior turns out to be one of the bad guys. Is he's a bad guy. Oh he is. Okay, that's when casting Robert Downey Junior in your movie meant nothing, So he could be although I do love I do love a good Joey Pants film, so I'll probably check out. Sincerely, I think that that character is really you know, he's very hateable, but in a way that I feel is very recognizable as a real type of person.

Like my favorite part is when he hears he finally he hears the gunshots and he finally listens enough to be like, oh, I should go check on that. And then they tell him like, oh, it's just party poppers. And then then it comes back and says to Seagal, Yeah, he's like it's just party poppers. Like he's telling them, like, you're the fucking idiot you believe that it was gunstoppers. Let's let's let's hear the party poppers in the kitchen of this ship.

Day guy. Let's let's let's let's go back here. This man has military training, this subordinate suppose I assume he's fired a gun, assuming he knows how to fire, so he knows how loud a gun is. I assume he's been around party poppers. So I assume he knows how loud party popper is.

I have never heard a party popper that you would have to wear ear protection to use. I don't know, vern this might be one of those characters that like is birthed like pre the scene that they're in, you know what I mean, Like this doesn't feel like a real person. This feels like an actual like baby on screen. Like I don't believe it, Like I don't believe the most obvious things, Like sometimes I'm just like this is unfortunately a plot contrivance in character form. They didn't need a character there at the door Versagall because he could have just escaped the freezer.

That's true, But I disagree about the character. Like I really believe there are people like like right back is correct, Like he's blindly following authority and he just believes what they tell him. Like they're like this guy's a psycho, and he just he just believes that even though any reasonable person would know Gary not to trust Gary BC, but the guy, but he just has allegiance to to power. You know. It's just like people that will believe anything when police kill somebody, and then they'll just believe what the police say about you know, he's one of those type of guys.

And this again goes to our unfortunate state of where Seagal is now compared to where he is men and understands talking about not listening to authority, you know, be your own man, don't listen to them. And now he's senior boot liquor, Comrade boot Liquor, I think is what they were probably hanging out with. Dictators. Yeah, it's it's very strange, the Segal dictator thing. Like again, for a guy who had an you know, had his on Deadly Ground moment, it's some cognitive dissonance that, like, I truly don't get it.

Well, don't forget on deadly ground. He blew up a fucking oil tanker while also espousing the environmental effort. How else are you going to stop them? He imploded it so that the oil wouldn't get into the water. Of course that's familiar, but hope didn't cause any dash correct.

Okay, okay. He did a one hour speech at the end of the movie that got cut out. He's an expert on Chris. I am sorry, I retract my statement. Yeah, true, you heard when they said Forrest is here, that fire as good as it out.

He's an expert. Everyone knows that Forrest Taft is the you know, the very best step putting out oil fires. I love it to that point. I love in How Seagull films there's always at least a line where they where someone has to mention how good he is. He's the best.

I thought you were going to mention how great some of the names of the characters that he portrait, Oh, like Nico Toscani, or Gino or Gino Polino. Mason Storm is Mason Storm. Oh my god, almost sounds like a that almost sounds like a character. Almost sounds like a character that one of the guys from It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia would make up just to meet a woman, I mean in China. Salesman his name is Louder.

You know it's he's I mean, at this point, he's been in so many movies. What are these going to call him? John Smith? Like, come on, we gotta give him something. Lots of Jackson like his early movies.

He's like Jack John Austin Cole Taggard like or Jack Cole and Jack Taggard sound like the same name. As far as I'm concerned. Casey ryback sounds like a drink you order at the bar is a great one that like because they could call him right back, and like it just sounds cool as fun, all the risky with a rye back. I don't know, really like, I would really like somebody to do a study of all action movies and find out what percentage the hero is named either John or Jack, because it's probably pretty hi, it's probably pretty high. Back to the fan film of Diehart Jack later Diehard five.

Don't they yell each other's names throughout the damn film? Jack? John? Jack? John?

Yeah, so there's there's two right there, there's two. I've never seen it. I don't know what is it? What is that real wavd? I just admitted it existed.

You know it's still a fan film. No, it's a fan film. Sorry, I can. Oh, God, forgive me, John McClain or John McTiernan, forgive me, John McTiernan, John McTiernan. So vern you you had mentioned something before we started talking, and I wanted to ask you about it now that we're, you know, sitting having this discussion about Seagal.

You had mentioned that, you know the book, your book had a at a finite end because obviously you're not still writing it. It is how people can go buy it. You had mentioned that people have asked you to you know, hey, Vern, why haven't you, you know, brought us up to speed on Seagal's most recent films. Um, And I know you had mentioned like, well, you know what what what was your what is your answer to those people? I guess?

And can we expect that you will bring another psygology book to to the world at some point? What do you think, Um, I would like to do it someday. Uh. The answer used to be that it was up to the publisher, Titan Books. Um.

But then last year, when I was doing my taxes, I realized that my contract with them had expired and they needed and so they no longer own it, so I actually could update it if I wanted to. But I, UM, you know, you guys have talked about how you've watched the most recent ones, so you've actually seen some Seagal movies that I have not seen. Because there was a point around twenty sixteen when when I started to become very disillusioned with the combination of Segal, you know, like hanging around with Putin and kind of spreading the disinformation campaign that that Putin was promoting during the election, combined with the fact that he did two movies in a row that seemed designed just to make him be able to sit down in a chair for the whole movie.

We've done a couple of those. Boy, have I got some prospective films for you, sir. One of them, the first one was Sniper Special Ops. And I think Code of Honor might have been the second one. I forget, But um, is that one of the sequels to Sniper Sniper Special Ops?

Or is that just it's not No, the Sniper the Sniper franchise is innocent. It is not related to Sniper Special Ops. But yeah, it seemed like he he figured out, oh, I can play a sniper, then I could just film some scenes sitting down in the top of the tower and not have to work with other actors or stand up and um, and it really bummed me out. But then and then also I made sure you've probably discussed that he there were there were rape allegations that came out. Yeah, were not only of course horrible, but also like even on happened during my The my favorite movie of is making it even more influent.

So you know, because of those things, I really, I really have kind of not been keeping up with his movies, which I don't I don't want to say like that. It's I'm not against anyone watching them, and I think I do want to watch them sometime in the few but I just have, you know, but I had nagdi feelings about it because of that. So therefore, you know, I've seen parts of his movies, but this is actually watching Understiege the other day is actually I think the first time in a few years that I've sat down and watched an entire movie by in so um, thank you for giving me the reason to do that, because you know, it just reminds me how much I love at least those old ones. And I number two in my mind, separated from during the during the recording of the first couple of podcasts we did, I was thinking to myself, Wow, we're sure talking a lot about the allegations and the down parts of Sea Gull.

I mean, the unfortunate part is, you know, this is a podcast about Seagal, but you can't really talk about him without discussing the elephant in the room, and especially not in twenty twenty one. No, especially not. I mean, I mean, look, it's unfortunate, but it's an unfortunate reality of the industry. You have to recognize that the man has allegedly done some horror things. Um and but us as podcasters and movie film critics, we have to separate the man from the from the from the films.

So I would go as far as to say it's a personal choice. We don't. I prefer to because I don't listen to Michael Jackson anymore. I prefer to separate the man from the from the film because if we don't, it's I'm afraid it would be all shitting on Seagall films forever because of what he's done. But I can't deny.

Yeah, but I can't deny that I love Out for Justice, I love under Stage, I love Mark for Death. Those are really fun action films that hold up thirty years after the fact, you know. Um. Yeah, So, I mean I try to be as fair handed as possible. Uh, but you know, we do have to acknowledge the problems as well as the as well as the accomplishments.

Yeah, and I have an easier time talking about what I'm talking about for Justice or under Siege. You know, it's we're talking about this old movie. But if I if I review his new movies as they come out, that I'm promoting, you know, encouraging people to possibly give money to support his career where he's you know, allegedly getting away with a horrible thing that he's done by hiding out in Russia and filming movies where he sits down in a chair with a sniper rifle yea or or just a handgun or just talking to people, because you know, if you can make money by sitting down, I mean, what was the film people are paying him to do that? That's on them. What was the film we watched where basically he just sat at the table the whole fucking time, General Commander, That's what I thought it was.

No, that's beyond the law. Beyond the law is the one where he is literally sitting the entire playing. I believe he's playing like a mob boss or something, and he just sits direct Yeah, yeah, your premonition came true. He's working in that direct action. It seems like he's just wanting.

But we do give, We do give. We have given his later works positive out positive reviews. I mean, we talked about Attrition in a very positive light. I've heard good things about that. Yeah, actually I kind of got side checked and didn't quite I would.

I don't have any immediate plans for it, but I do think that someday I would like to to watch all these movies and analyze them, and maybe it would be either to do it on my website or if it was a book, then I think it would be kind of a follow up book that would be probably called Psychology to Dark Territory in order to yeah, looking at but it would be looking at these movies with the with the new understanding of, you know, not trying to make excuses for him as a person, and just analyzing the movies based on our understanding of how you know the dark side of all this and you should and you should get Richard to do your forward. Speaking of Richard, Richard would be over the moon. I mean, you know what happened with that script.

That script was changed Richard. The story Richard told on our under Siege two episode that we did on my show is Richard. The only line of dialogue, and the entire movie that Richard had is Ladies and gentlemen, this is your captor speaking. That's the only piece of dialog. It's the best line in the movie.

Right, But dude, was it matt Reeves that Matt Reeves was a partner though? Right? It wasn't him that did matt Reeves rewrite it or someone else someone else did. Okay, That's why it's this whole like problematic thing because like Richard's like, oh, I love that It's made my career put me in a position to where I am all this stuff. But like, also it was not our movie in many ways.

Uh, speaking of uh subtitles for things. Um, when I was at San Diego Comic Coon back in I was or oh nine, they were asking for people to to uh nominate subtitles for the second Sharknado film, and my submission was Sharknado two into Sharkness or Sharknado two shark Territory shark Territory. I thought that was too perfect and they didn't pick it, unfortunately, because they're un original assholes. They don't know. Yeah, but they're not connoisseurs of fine cuisine like we are.

Fuck them. Uh. One question, Uh, are there any other like action stars that you would think about like writing a book on in going over their career. Yeah. There a lot of people always ask me if I would do Van Dam and I for a long time I said that I wouldn't because I didn't think it would work in this I mean, I still believe it wouldn't work in the same way as with Seagal because it's not the same.

Segal is unique, and that I see him as being kind of an auteur, and that he puts certain themes in almost every movie that he ever makes, and that and that's kind of what I was analyzing in the books. I wouldn't be able to have the same approach I have tried to do a Van Dam. There's a point where I decided I'm going to do a Van Dam book, and then I just feel like I haven't really cracked the right approach to do it. But I would like to do that Sunday because I think he's He's great and interesting and continues to make good movies. Yeah, he does.

And there's another one that I actually don't want to say because I haven't um I've been kind of keeping it secret. But there is another kind of less obvious one that I really would like to write a book about Michael White. I'm like, no, but I mean he's also he's one of my first couple of times. But it's it's it's somebody else. I won't say.

I wasn't asking you had mentioned Michael J. White like three times. I was just giving you a hard time. The title, can I sug just a title for the Van Damn book if you ever get around to writing it, Van Damn Nation? Okay, Okay, I tried.

I tried. I was thinking of some kind of subtitle of like the Splits personality, but I don't think that was and I look a look at it. Yeah, I was trying to do like a duality thing of like showing the two sides of them because there's so many twins. And yeah, you can use the you could basically just use the poster for for um, what was that called again? Double Impact?

Double Impact? Yeah? Yeah, because I get that confused with double team. But that's the moment, Dennis Robin, uh, I hope if you write the book that you're easy on street Fighter, because that's a guilty pleasure of mine. Verne, you mentioned you haven't cracked the Van Damn code.

Yet. How when you were because you mentioned it a little bit, and I'm very curious as someone who also writes, um, how what brought you to cracking the code with because you clearly you mentioned this board that you had. Was that kind of the steps that you took to get all that information together? Yeah, I mean I really in my mind it seemed to make sense that it really was almost like a code, like a mathematical Yeah, like a math. I'm terrible at math, so that's maybe that's why I've made sense in my head.

But it seemed like almost it wasn't mathematical, like if I if I analyzed every one of the movies that he had made, that I would understand this what I was looking at on this chart. I think with Van Dam it's like with Segal, it really made sense to go chapter one above the law and the just each each movie is a chapter. But with Van Dam it's like each movie that he does in a row is going to be usually really different from the last one, and you kind of I think maybe I'd have to bring together related movies, like maybe a chapter that's all of his movies working with Hong Kong directors or you know, or starting with all the Cannon, the movies you made with Cannon. I don't know. I've tried, I've tried different approaches that I didn't feel like we're working.

But someday and schwartz and egger Rology is just two on the nose, right, because what is there to say about Schwartzenegger that hasn't been said? Yeah, he's a pretty open I mean, I mean, I mean, what is there to say that hasn't already been said? That's the thing about Seagal that that's the thing about Segalvern that I really appreciate about your book. And as someone who does a podcast that we talk about movies that don't get enough love, I love that you go into each of these streaming DTV whatever you want to call them movies. I love that you go into it and you give each of those movies a chapter and you don't just say, well, these are JP whatever.

I really appreciate that about your book. And that's one of my favorite things about your book is that you want to read a chapter about Dragon Squad, Yeah you're or you know Black Dawn that's in there or today you die, Like that's in there, and like who else is talking about that? Nobody because everybody else goes that's directive video. Who gives a shit? Yeah, I mean sorry, that's always my philosophy.

And I think I don't know why this comes to mind, but I grew up reading thank Ooria magazine, and in the old days when it was a monthly magazine, I always love that it would be like, well, this this month, we have to cover Dolly Dearist or whatever. Like there wasn't always like a high profile movie for them, but they would still have like a set visit and all this super like detailed coverage. Like to me, that's kind of like like you said, it's like, I mean, I love writing. I wrote an essay about Terminator two and Point Break this summer, and those are I love trying to tackle, Like what do I say that's new about this movie that everyone has discussed already, Like I love that, But really my main thing is, like like you said, like trying to find something that that I really love that maybe I feel like not enough people have given a chance to and kind of express why I'm passionate about it, And that's why I m I actually I didn't.

One of the people I actually tried to do before was I wanted to do Nicolas Cage book at one point, and um, but like I feel like a lot of the world has actually come around to my point of view on Nicolas Cage, so and now I don't feel like it's as important for me to do that. Although I still love writing about those I will say that Nick probably took me one of his, like you know, someone who was a detractor. I was not a fan of his. I was dragged, kicking and screaming onto your side of the argument, which is what Nicholas Cage is. When he's on, he's on, and if he knows how to work with someone, or notes someone knows how to work with him, it's magic.

Is I'm assuming, is that where you're coming from? Yeah? Yeah, or sometimes even if they don't know how, sometimes he just brings it out anyway, right, And and sometimes he's in left behind just literally like a fucking cash a cash grab. But like, so what you get? You get all that, and then you get a movie like this Year's Pig, which is amazing, and it's a movie about a guy whose truffle pig gets stolen.

Yeah, I love that movie. But I think maybe not in every case, but I think more so than Bruce Willis. He'll he'll take those roles and he'll still sometimes give an interesting performance even in like a terrible, boring Well, he never like I mean, in the Nicholas Cage films I've seen, he never seems to I mean left behind, notwithstanding because that film is the only film in Nicholas Cage's career that I've ever seen him not try. Every film he seems to bring something to it, Like it may not be the best performance, but at least he gives a performance, you know, at least you can tell, Yeah, at least you could tell he's I don't I don't know what that don't know what that performance was, but it made no sense in that movie, but it kind of is amazing.

You can tell he's invested in a project, you know, he's like, I'm going to earn the paycheck and I'm gonna do what I need to do, and I'm gonna, you know, at least try. I think he maybe acknowledges in his head that the movie he does may not be very good, but he's not going to stop. It's not going to stop him from giving it what he can to salvage it. Like I said, Left Behind being the exception, because I mean, if you watch that movie about the Superman movie that never got made, and you see those behind the scenes footage, you can tell he's genuinely excited to play Superman. And yeah, I mean he's a huge Superman fan.

But whatever. There are actors who, given that opportunity, would not have given any shits and could careless. But yet you can tell, like you guys have said, he invests himself into the performances in a way that other actors don't. And you know what, I like, Steven Seagal figured out a way in Left Behind to make a paycheck in a movie and not have to get up. I would read a book about Nicholas Cage actually, because I just find him that interesting of a person in general.

I mean not just you know, the films, but him as a person. Because that's the thing about Seagal. Then, like we are, we gravitates towards Seagal in a way too, because he's just kind of like an interesting human being. Cage just happens to be an actor. The Cage is easier to defend.

Well, yeah, I don't know. I think maybe because of the terrible things that have been learned about and maybe it wouldn't happen, but I've always thought about it. I would never write a biography of them because I don't feel qualified to do that, but it would be a super interesting read if someone really did a real biography of his life. Yeah, he strikes me as like very Tommy Wizo is in a way like Tommy Wizou is very cagy. When someone's like where are you from, Like he's like, like you know, he just kind of shrugs and goes, hey, everybody hilarious and like that's Segal, like you were talking about it burn where he's like the Russia and Native American like no, what No, Like it's like self reinvention is a thing that seems like is very important to Segal because I think at one point in his career, is it The Glimmerman where he's like, I don't want to kill anyone on screen for a while.

I think that was the one because he in that film he's playing a very a Buddhist. Yeah. Yeah, and he's got Keenan Affrey Waynes as a sidekick, which is like what I mean, Steven Seagal is very I will say in those early movies. At least, he's very true to himself. Maybe too fauld Yeah, I mean Stevens Got Home.

Yeah, he had a fighting style that was new. He had a fashion that was nobody else followed. Yeah, you still played guitar also, and he had a ponytail that could not be beat. I mean, I mean, you know he uh, he was a trend setter for trends that he still follows. But yeah, you can't.

Did not catch off nobody's wearing neighbru in twenty one. But I mean, I like, I like weirdos. I think, I think, I mean, I guess you mentioned before we have the same issue with Michael Jackson, but uh, Michael Jackson was you know, my favorite growing up and I like my whole life really and he and you know, if we set aside what what what people allegedly yeah what has been alleged, just like everything about him was so unique and bizarre, and people always held that against him, but to me, that was also what was cool about him, and or or in a more positive light, we can say Prince was very much an individual and um, I just I just really yeah, so I really gravitate to people like that and I'm not.

I'm I'm definitely not trying to argue that Segal is on the level of Prince or anything, but I like iconic weirdos. Yeah, I'm with you because well, I think I gravitate towards weirdos myself, because well, I am a weirdo, you know, I always well because seriously though, I've always felt very much an outlier, an outcast, you know, especially during my high school years, I felt very much out of it. So you kind of want to defend the people who don't feel like they're being defended. And also there these are people who they they're weirdos, and then they made it cool like within their world. You're like, you know, Prince is wearing a bizarre thing, but he steps on the stage and he's like the coolest motherfucker you've ever seen in your life.

Oh hell yeah. And uh, you know, to a certain extent, when Segal was at his height and people really liked him, that was what it was too, was like this dude at the Ponytown the weird shirts, and you know, like they're like that guy is so cool. Like that was kind of the the aura that he created. And I would love to live in a universe, like an alternate reality where Seagal is the one who became immensely successful in the nineties and like his career, like imagine if Segal was like Tom Cruise in a way, right, like he's just kind of always been around doing things and popping up and kind of having peaks and valleys. Because Seagal has never like it's been this it's like, I mean, it's unfortunate, Like it's it's sad, and it's kind of sad in a way, you know, again who he is.

Notwithstanding, you wouldn't want this to happen to anyone in their career if they never if they had this taste of immense success and then it kind of just fizzled out. But there's a universe where he was the most successful guy and he's still doing things now, and that I wonder what that would be like. Yeah, it definitely seems like his personality was a barrier to that because you know, but yeah, but but then at the same and you know, that's a good thing. If our world is punishing people for being bricks. Yeah, I'm in support of that, even that.

I love his movies, but he's also very unusual in that he he started at the top like he was. He was Chaelovitz, I Kedo teacher and he and then Michael Evits gave him a screen test and his first movie is Above the Law where he's the main character and it has elements based on his life or things that he claimed about his life, and um, but some of it definitely is verified the real things about his life. And that was his first you know, he had done a little bit of behind the scenes, but his first acting role is Steven Seagal is you know, and so they made a big deal that he was in that movie. It's almost unheard of how his career has had went. Yeah, I agree, I don't.

I don't know anyone to compare that too. I mean none, none of his contemporaries had that. None of his contemporaries were like thrust into that. I mean Schwarzenegger, Stallone bandy, I mean, dam wasn't breaking. Yeah, Schwarzenegger.

Schwartzenegger did like the Hercules films. Uh, stallone did. Uh that's the Talian Stallion, which was called something else I forgot um, but yeah, party a Kidian Kyle's or something something or something like that. But um, yeah, even they started out kind of more bit parts. But Segal out of the Gate got above the law and I'm like he got at least he didn't have to work as hard for it.

Yeah, but he but he didn't. But but I give him credit. He didn't half ascid in his first role. He's like, I'm I'm gonna take this. I'm gonna take this, uh, this gift I've been given and I'm gonna show them what I got and I'm gonna fight.

He was a stunt coordinator before all this. Yeah, and you know, but only on like two movies there. Yeah, right, yeah, he broke supposed Yeah that's wasn't that from for Never Say Never Again or something? Yeah? And then he did something on the Challenge, right, That's that's where they credit him as Steves Ago, friends with him, friends with Stephen, call him.

He probably wouldn't like to be called Steve, Stevie, Steve Yo, Stefan and I mean burned to your point, this guy being you know, a unique individual. Please tell me the Schwarzenegger TV show where he is a law man, you know, like stuff like that, like it just or you know, please tell me about I guess Bruce Bruce Willis is not an example we can use for a music career Welcome Back Bruno, But I have that album by that guy, so do I. Yeah, the three fans of Welcome Meg Bruno. Have you seen the movie? I have it on I have it on VHS.

Movie. Yeah, Return to Bruno is like it was a It was like an HBO special. It's a mockumentary about his great career and they interview a munch and the interview a bunch of celebrities to talk about Bruno and how prolific he was as a songwriter. And the one I remember most was like Michael J. Fox.

Wow, I have not seen that, but I mean like Schwarzenegger's musical career, stuff like that. Like Seagal is is the consummate weirdo guy, like consummate, just like he is. He if again, you know, like you said Verne, As we come to a close here, we have to again make a statement about Steven Seagal is a bad guy because he allegedly has done a lot of bad things and he should be punished. But he's a weirdo and he's never been not true to it. He's always true to himself and can't hold that against him, for good or for bad, because him being himself meant that he didn't get all these roles that he could have gotten because, like you said, n his personality got in the way of his success, and he's being true to himself and he's not playing ball with people.

So yeah, at least he never did a movie where he's like maybe sitting some kids and and it's at least comedy. At least he never did a film where his mom comes to visit and you know, she finds his gun. I mean, there's a universe somewhere where Steven Seagal and Simbad are the leads of Jingle over the Way and Ladies and Gentleman. I would pay to see that movie, my god, I would do. I mean, Jingle All the Way is great, but to your point, and like I guess it's probably a good thing.

We never got the Steven Seagal crisis of faith where he's cast in a children's company, like or Steven Seagal Is Pregnant film by Larry I wasn't trying to this, uh Schwitzenegger. I was thinking more of like The Tooth Fairy and yeah, yeah, and the Pacifier and stuff like that. But yeah, another die Hard movie, a literal die Hard movie, Skyscraper, Diehard, I think on a building. I think over the years as being known as the Seagal guy. Everyone has to do certain things that everyone has to talk to me about, like the story about him getting choked out and shooting his pants and stuff like that.

I don't, I won't go into that. If you you'll, I think you're talking the Gracie thing, right, like Sammy the Bulkano or something like that. Judo Geane that's the one. Okay, now I know, I know, but that would be amazing. Stephen Sekel getting into a fight with Sammy the Bull Gravato.

We we know how that was some some mob guy on YouTube was telling a story about Stephen Sikl shooting his pants and I thought it was okay, I could be wrong, Yeah I could. He did. There was a thing with mobsters. And then there's also a story about him, uh showing somebody crying reading a script and showing him and the script and then he wrote the script. And there's there's a certain story like negative stories about him that become legendary that everyone has to go, oh, like, tell me about it as if I haven't heard it before.

But one of them is that one of one of those facts is that when he hosted Saturday Night Live, like every everybody said that he was the worst. Everyone all the Saturday Night Live people say he was the very worst, and huh So anyway, that's that may explain why he didn't follow the switch Figger. I told this doing some comedies. I mentioned the sturd life thing in uh in one of the podcasts where he had pitched a sketch where he plays a therapist in Victoria. Jackson plays a rape victim or a sexual assault victim, and all through the sketch, Steven Seagal's character tries to hit on her, and apparently he thought that was funny.

So apparently he was I don't think it would have worked. You have you had you heard that? Have you heard that story though? Where? Yeah?

I forget where that came from, but but yeah, he's like never invited back again. I know there's a Saturday Night Live book that mentioned I think David Spade says something, and I know Bob Odenkirk has told stories about it and stuff, so yeah, yeah, I mean, I mean, the story is it? Tom Sagura also has a is he the one who tells a bunch of Ciagal. Everybody's got like a Seagal story. I mean even Richard has his Seagal story, but I mean John Zamo's Siagal story.

Yeah, yeah, where he basically like chokes him out on the set of Executive Decision or something. And Tom Mandold actually recently came out it's a good one involving him jumping off about getting tricked into jumping off about them. There's a lot of them. Yeah, everybody. It seems like everybody has a run in with him, or has an opinion on him, or forgets that he still exists in the in the world.

I don't know. I mean, you go ask ten people if they know where Steven Seagal is, and probably nine of them would say I thought he was dead. So it's strange, it's unfortunate. But yeah, so why he's gotten in his own way a lot we may have already answered this question. So why do you think that he has the appeal for people like us, for a small cult following, because he's the weirdo.

I think also, just it's like everything we've been talking about is makes him stand out as a unique His movies are unique, you know, the way the way that he just passed through everybody is unique. The fact that he uses iq do and so it's a very blunt, like fast style that's different from Van Dame's flying kicks and stuff, which I'm not saying one is better words on the other, but it's it really stands out as being a different sort of thing. Like in understands the way that he's like waving the knives around is so weird, and and then just his whole persona of being a weirdo like we're talking about, and just um, it just creates a very unique thing. So when he's really firing on all cylinders with a great director like we have here and like a good script, and then it just becomes you know, obviously, they just they just stand out among those movies that we love.

I will agree with you his his fighting style is definitely fascinating to watch. Whenever he gets in his whenever he gets into his groove and does what he does best in his fighting style, it's fascinating to watch. And it's almost like choreography like ballet and dancing. Not to be cliche about it, but he definitely has a technique to it that's just beautiful to watch, and and and yet and and when you have him in something like Attrition, he's even better. I mean that movie plays to his strengths.

I really think he should be working like in like in Asian cinema, because like, if he is as good at I Kedo as we know he is, he could be like really raking in the money in Asian cinema, just playing like the grizzled Old Teacher or X something or other. Like It's I've always found it strange that like, yeah, he's doing like streaming stuff, but it's like all these like very saney things like Asian cinema with his background would be something for him that I would assume would probably be worth his time. I think a director like John Wu would really um makes Steven Seagal something to do. I mean he would really I think probably highlights Steven seagal strengths um as well. Yeah have you there of you seen Belly of the Beast yet not yet?

Okay, so you'll come to that eventually. That's uh, that's that's his only like real Hong Kong kind of movie because it's Chin Su tongue the great choreographer and director. And it's right, and it's very it's it's done like kind of I believe after Cratching Tiger, Hidden Dragon and stuff, and it has some other there's a part where he fights a guy who's doing like wire food but he's just standing there and doing his I can tell on him, and it's like, it's a cool movie because it's it's a combination of like having some really well done stuff and just being really crazy. And I can't wait to get to that. Yeah, it's one of maybe my favorite of his state video, definitely one of his most interesting straight to video.

Lens so Verd, I want to give you the final say on under Siege, but I will ask you your your final thought on under Siege and the movie that you anticipate we will not like at like the like the least of the ones that you watched. Which one do you think is probably going to be the hardest for us to stomach? Did you already see Sniper Special Apps? No, okay, I'm gonna say that one. And Against the Dark, which you want, oh, the vampire film, vampire movie.

You want it to be good because it's Sigal versus vampires. But he's just you'll you'll discover why it's not doesn't live up to that, but I guess yeah, those two those are my least favorite but I've seen. And then my final thought on under Siege is that there's a part where he's climbing down a giant chain and I like to look at that and pretend that he's actually really small, like a like a brower. He's a little a borrower or one of the littles. Oh god, thank you for mentioning the show.

Oh my god, just the non secredar of the fucking year. Honey. I'd just like to imagine that he's really small. Honey. I shrunk, Honey, I shrunk the ciagal.

I would watch that movie is Aunt Man with Rick moranis man. Rick moranis is the villain in this movie. Oh that's a good That would be a good choice to come out of retirement for Underseach student. Yeah, wow, I would watch that movie. Man.

Huh. Well, you know what, if we ever get underseage three, which we it's got to be, so let's write the script and make it and make it tell them and bake a studio note. Rick moranis or nothing that's fair so Verne, Um, thank you for joining us so much. Again, your your psychology book is kind of what put me down this path, because again it was came very highly suggested from a friend of ours, the friend that put Trevor and I in contact, our friend Mike White of the Projection Booth podcast. UM, but thank you so much for joining us, Thank you so much for writing psychology from the bottom of our hearts.

And if people want to find you and your extensive works, where can they go to find you? If you want them to find you. Yeah, I'm at outlaw Verne dot com and I post for movie reviews a week, pretty much specializing in action, but I do a lot of horror and just everything else I get into different phase is right now I'm doing Summer of nineteen ninety one movies, which I'm almost done with. And I'm asto on Twitter and letterboxed Patreon. UM, and and thanks a lot for having having me.

It was it was fun and thank you. I would like to apologize for calling Trevor Terry earlier and confusing everyone. It's okay, I didn't catch it, but now when I when I listened to and edit. I'm gonna listen. I caught it, and I caught it and I let it go.

I'm like, am I going to tell the guests? What the hell did you just call me? Did you call me Terry? Because we want to have him back, so I don't want to alienate. But yes, it was thank you very much.

It was fun and I would be happy to come back to time. Thank you so much. Like like I said, this is for me whenever I work on a podcast, and Trevor knows this, like there are people that I want to have on that are like the mount rushmore of people for the show. You are next to Segal in this Oh no, but yes, since the beginning you work one could have like one head separating us buffer head, Yeah, William Sadler, William Sadler's head. Accept that, No, Keith David's head because like you mentioned, he's the best psychkick that would like to be next.

Should we give our our our recommend ponytail up a ponytail? Oh yeah, no pony tailor no ponytail. I guess well we're all three in agreement, right, Yeah, that's great. It's it's a great movie. Okay, I don't know if it's his best movie, but for a lot of people, it's probably the only Skall movie they've seen.

Yeah, it's probably his most accessible movie. That or My Giant, Yeah, or or his stellar turn in Fire down Below where he kills Chris Christofferson or I know, I guess he locks him up, but he kills Randy Travis by shooting him in the neck. So there s now I gotta see this movie. Yeah, that's fucking Randy Travis. A good one.

Yeah, it's a good one, Trevor. Where can people find you? People can find me at Twitter at bad Vertigo. You can find me on Instagram at mad Vertigo, and you can find me a monthly once a month on the Culture Cast with my friend here Chris Stash you. And that's about it, because really I got nothing else to go on on And as for me, stas dot com is where you can go to find my stuff.

That's my link tree. All the links to all the things that I work on go there. So that's where you can go if you have an interest in going there. And on sigal dot com is where you can find this show. We are also on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, if you want to go there, or you just go to on sigal and listen to the show.

It's not that we don't interact on social media, but like I mean, we're still posting the show, so the show's not going anywhere. Be tuned for our next episode. We will be discussing the Seagal film cartel Cartel's cartels with an ass. I wish it was a z that would be like early two thousands. It does have George Saint Pierre in it, so symbol has a minor role is what Wikipedia says.

But he has a centerpiece on the posters, so that doesn't mean anything that Yep, that's true. Who knows. But yeah, and again Vern, thank you so much for joining us Rush