Episode 29: The Wind in the Willows

We're welcome to ranking on bass and offhand joke that became a long running podcast. I'm your host, Mike White joining me is a water bowl that people like to call a rat Mister Chris Stashue, I prefer to be called ratty because there's nothing vetter than just putting a t y at the end of everything, or just in some characters case of why also with us as the piper at the gates of John himself, mister Richard had him. But I actually, God damn it, I want to do Charles. I want to do Charles Nelson Riley and one I always have it at the ready until this moment, and now I cannot believe I trip on the rug of Charles Nelson Riley. But anyway, mister, I can't do I can't do it.

I'll do it later. It'll it'll happen naturally, Okayson, Charles lipping over a lot of rug other than the one on his head. Wait a second, it is Tripping on rug is some sort of euphemism for some sort of sexual cranking on ass, but a little different. Anyway, glad to be here. On this podcast, we discussed the works of Earth are making Junior and Jules Bass usually with talk about some of their stop motion and animated work, and we are talking about I'm kind of talking about some bookends here, some of the earliest stuff that Rankin and Basted, including The Reluctant Dragon and Mister Toad show, all the way back from nineteen seventy.

Yes, I know they started earlier than that, and then I believe this was one of their last productions, The Wind in the Willows from nineteen eighty seven. We got the old gang back together, we got Romeo Muller, Morey Laws. But I think even with The Reluctant Dragon, we've got a lot of these same familiar well I can't say faces, but familiar names that we have going on here. This one. You know, we talked about Ronnie McDowell a couple of weeks ago, but he is back, ladies and gentlemen.

He is the voice of reason, the Grasshopper or sorry, the aunt to the Toad's grasshopper. He is Ratty or rat and yeah, the star of the show here, of course, the one and only Charles Nelson Riley as Mister Toad based on the beloved question Mark children's book The Wind in the Willows from nineteen oh eight, and from what I've read, because I've never read When in the Willows. I did see the Disney version when I was younger, but really, you haven't read a one hundred and fifteen year old children's book. No, I haven't. But from what I understand, this is actually a fairly faithful adaptation of things so kind of weird.

I'm glad that I didn't read this because spoiler alert, I think mister Toad is a dick. Hey. I don't know if any of you California or Florida residence now, but you can go on a mister Toad ride at Disneyland because Disney has also done a Mister Toad thing, obviously mister Toad's Wild Ride, because hey, what does mister Toad love more than anything else? Contraptions akaa cars aka being an entitled rich piece of shit. He's he's out of control, like literally, he's like a psychopath.

Where does he get his money from? Where does he get off? It's my question? Fucking generational wealth. Wowo woll this is two woke for me.

I knew this is woke. Okay, oh my gosh. Well, no, I'm talking about Toad being generational wealth. Okay, he got a small loan from his father of ten million dollars. Okay, that's how he came away, right by driving cars into buildings and people and almost killing them.

Well, he thinks he's above the law. There's a one car where he's just like, I'm going to steal this. But then he was tripping and just like you know, like withdrawals. You know, he sees babies on the ceiling and all this kind of stuff, and he's just like, I have to drive a contraption. We're literally watching the final days of a psychopath just burning out in an an Hasche like tour of Inu God.

At least it's horrifying to watch. Yeah, oh well it's it's what's weird, is like, are we meant to cheer for this character or we're so I know what it is. We're meant to find his Peri Delicto's funny, his little his little weirdness. We're meant to find his weirdness funny. Right.

Toad isn't exactly a Gadsby like character, but Toad is clearly someone who welcomes the modern world. He's an early adopter, very early adopter. He who loves the car and the train and the boat and the thing. I get the feeling that he's you know, if with the opportunity he'd have the the Beta Max and the VHS and the LaserDisc player and the three DTV, he'd have it all. And this book sort of came out at a time, you know, of the Industrial Revolution, you know, as it was, you know, sort of gaining its feet through fits and starts.

And I think Toad is supposed to be an indefatigable optimist who is welcoming the future where his more pastoral friends are as animals should be a little bit more content to just relax and enjoy the coming and goings of the seasons and and sort of the life that nature had intended for them, But none of that for Toad. Now we watch it in the modern age and go, this guy's a fucking load. Mister load is more like it. Well, that he can't even control any of these gadgets that he has a boat and the mofo is like ripping the steering wheel off of it, and he doesn't even know what to call it or anything, And I'm just like, what is your freaking problem? And that he's like terrorizing his neighbors with this boat and then eventually he'll terrorize them with his car as well of a serious question, do you think this was deft satire at the time setting it in the world of animals, but saying, look at how people are, what do you think if you're talking about from nineteen o eight.

Yeah, I'm talking about the book like it was a children's book, but adults would read and go, oh, I know what you're saying, Kenneth Bran, I get it. But being trenchant, I mean, that's got to be what it is, right, It's got to be that, like, well, there's more to it, and it's not just about a crazy little toad dancing around and driving his car like clearly right, But the way it's being presented here, it is just about a toad driving his car like this and like and not saying it strips the subtlety out. But this kind of animation in this time in eighty seven kind of does. We haven't mentioned this, but I feel like it bears mentioning. The animation style is at times okay and at other times very off putting, Like certain characters look just kind of I think the word I would use as gross, Like the human characters look very gross and like so exactly like again, like I don't know what other term to use, but if you saw them, they're like all very exaggerated and they almost look like they're made out of like clay.

It's so strange. It's the thing that we end up saying almost every week, which is that they're their three D excuse me, AnimagiC animation is charming and feels like it is theirs anytime you ever see it, you think Ranking and Bass. And then their two dimensional animation feels very unremarkable and very much of its time, and it changes. I mean, they're various styles. We'll talk about reluctant Dragon you know next.

But but and that was very much of nineteen seventy. This is very much of nineteen eighty seven. But but before we even get to that, I mean, I am just I just want to land for a second. I mean, there's very much a story about sort of a group of friends that's really about a group a group of friends who have one friend who's always the problem, who they are always having to contend with, always having to bail out. I mean, it's kind of it's kind of a traditional story.

We've seen it in other ways, and in life you have those friends. So I'm just wondering again if Kenneth Graham was sort of like, oh, everyone reading this book knows I'm referring to Lord Dunstan. Yeah. Really, there were some characters, some neighbors and things that he was throwing in there for his son, because this was allegedly based all on stories that he was telling his son, his son, who was born with severe birth defects. By the way, it was really a sad story to read that.

But and then it was very odd to read too that one of the first stage adaptation of When in the Willows was actually done by A. A. Milne, And I think it was right around the time that he was writing his stuff for his son, Christopher Robin all about Winnie the Pooh, so kind of a weird one and then the other. I mean, okay, so Winnie the Pooh is a good kind of comparison peace, I think, because it's also about animals with very human qualities but but somewhat muted. Pooh obviously is sort of the center of it all.

He's the one who's most prey to human folly. Um uh, you know, curiosity and gluttony, you know, and everyone else has their eccentricities, but they're basically Pooh is the one they've got to keep an eye on, you know, He's the one we got to help out. Tiger does his crazy thing. He's sort of a you know, he's on something. Uh.

But but but they I like them because they're episodic, and I like them because they're kind of dialed down. But because they're dialed down, the the sort of the character comedy, the comedy of manners, becomes more apparent. The badger who doesn't like guests, you know, I don't like having people over, and you just know it's just like okay. So these are when when children or adults in nineteen oh eight read this book, they recognize all those types as people they know. And and in the middle of it is this really exhausting toad that is insane, steals any vehicle he can find and then rex it and and goes right onto the next We have to talk about you.

You mentioned the grossness of the humans. First off, I was very thrown off when suddenly humans are in this and I'm just like, well, the scale doesn't work at all because, right, But I'm like, Okay, this is really weird that suddenly we have humans in this story, but the character designed for Toad. All they did was took Gollum and just change them just a very little bit. The entire time, I just kept thinking of the Ranking and Bass version of the Hobbit, and I kept waiting for Brother Theodore's voice to come out of Dollum's mouth other than rather than Charles Nelson Riley. You know, Richard, you brought this up a couple of times, not on this episode and not on this show, but the Adventures of Ichabod.

The Disney thing, and how much you're a fan of that. That was a dual feature with their version of The Wind in the Willows, right, Um, But that was that wasn't nineteen seventy That was in nineteen forty nine, the Disney. Yeah, it was forty nine. Wait no, but not this animated You mean there was another animated version. There's a Disney version of Mister Toad from nineteen forty nine, and that's the version that they based, Yeah, and that's the version that they based all of their things at the theme park off of.

But what's interesting is I mentioned that only because I feel like that's the iconic illustration for mister Toad is that look. And to your point, Mike, like this is it is Gallum. It's very Again, it's not off. He's not the off putting character. But it's just like, if this is your lead and he's supposed to be kind of charming, he kind of looks like an ugly toad.

Like he's not cute looking, He's just kind of like an anthropomorphic toad in the most literal of senses. Right well, far be it from ranking in bass to not reuse a design, right well? I mean, yeah, of all the characters, I have to say, Raddy is probably the cutest of them. Yes, maybe, followed by Molly, I suppose. And Badger comes in real late into this, and when he does, I'm just like, he doesn't sound like Jose Ferrer.

For like I'm saying ninety percent of it. When he's doing his voice, I'm just like, I don't hear the Padishah emperor speaking to me. And then finally occasionally they'd be like, Okay, I think I just heard some Jose Ferrere in there. But having Eddie Bracken to the voice of Moli. I'm trying to remember if we've had him in anything ranking and bass before, but like I said, for sure, Roddy McDowell had done that voice in the was that the cricket on the hearth?

He's the cricket on the hearth. It's the wind in the willow skin man man. That's the other what the other song was? The other song is what im messing around with? Boats?

Hey? I mean you mentioned the animation styles on The Non AnimagiC Things not being particularly memorable. Memorable Richard about the fact that the music in The Non AnimagiC Things is a real just a real just yeah slug. I mean it's not it's not that it's bad. It's just that it's uninspired.

Like the light word. Yeah, it's just it's sort of there. It's just sort of you know, doodally do time for a song. I mean, that's the thing. Well, it's like this is aimed really young and and the like I would say, I think I kind of liked it more as it went along, as my as my expectations dwined old and I finally settled into what it was because it's fairly inoffensive and the characters and their friendship is pleasant, and I did.

I guess I didn't expect it to be quite so episodic, which made it feel longer. Oh already long ninety minutes, don't you think. Yeah. I paused at about forty five minutes, not knowing what time it was, and I was like, oh my god, I'm halfway through for sure. I was like, just about to the third act.

I was like, oh no, no, no, I thought, oh, yeah, this ain't one hour, it's an hour and a half. Well, and that is the other thing about this it is I don't I didn't need this to be an hour and a half. It doesn't. The story that it's telling it feels I mean, it goes, it goes everywhere, like it goes all over the place. I mean we have them meeting new characters that have never made it to the surface before, and then Toad goes to jail, and it's like, oh, it's like going, It's going everywhere.

It's like, maybe don't try to adapt every bit of The Wind in the Willows. Maybe cut some of the things out that don't move the story along or aren't necessarily particularly that interesting. Well, that's the trouble with something that's so episodic is that it does feel like it could be lengthened or shortened at willum. One of the things though, in our in Our Ranking and Bass, you know the Enchanted World of Ranking Bass by Rick Goldschmidt, which is really a great book and everyone should get it. The quote is I don't know if it was ranking or bass, but it's like you picture me with cigar.

Yeah, we owed ABC another special and it was our last one. We were trying to scrape it off our shoe basically, and uh, and we didn't have any ideas, and we just kept throwing shit at the walls hoping someone would stick and uh. And finally we said, do you want something like Wind in the Willows? And they went, yes, do wind in the Willows? And we laughed because we'd already done that for them seventeen years earlier.

Is we just did it again. I feel like I was in the room right now. I was transported. But it gives you an idea of where they were sort of in their lives. It was like, this is a contractual obligation, we have to fill a two hour slot.

They want wind in the Willows, We've already done it, but don't say anything, let's just run and go do it again and get it done. And they did and this is the result. Yeah. This is around the time that they're also doing what they call the comic strip, where it was the various animated things of Tiger, Shark, street Frogs, the mini Monsters, and Karate Cat. So that's eighty seven as well.

They have stopped all live action productions. The last one was in eighty three, The Sense of Dorian Gray, which we talked about before. The Last Unicorn was in eighty two, and then their next animated feature isn't until The King and I, which we talked about just a few months ago. So they're really like this is like you're saying, like I want to say, there's the Santa Baby thing that we've talked about, which I can't remember if we have tracked that down, but otherwise it's on YouTube and it's entirety otherwise, like that in The King and I are the last things that they're gonna do, and that's gonna be another ten years before they get even close to that. Yeah.

Yeah, And what's funny is if you like, if you go and look at the stuff on TV, like I feel like the stuff on TV, like like was carrying them for a while, right, like like ThunderCats. I mean, ThunderCats was immensely successful and they have a hand in that, Like that's not that's not nothing. But then they have stuff like this and it's like whoa, guys, Like you can't you can't half ask this stuff. Especially in the eighties, you can't half ass cartoons anymore because this is like the time when you have that audience that's the right audience. Like Saturday morning cartoons were such a thing in the eighties and there was such a push for that, and I mean they did a cone Heads cartoon, So like things that don't need cartoons are getting cartoons because they know that they have an audience that they can play to, which is a child or younger audience.

It's how weird is it that we've run across Petty de Foix Gras like twice in the last week while we've been talking about things. I know, Yeah, they were trying to eat it in Barney Miller and now they're singing a song about it here. I love that. This is like it's like we don't have any bad day, Like what the yep? Because a six year old is gonna know what the fuck that is?

Like, it was just so strange because it seems like it's four adults, right, But that's what I was gonna. Yeah, it's like that was clearly the okay, and that's something for the grown ups. They're out there starving, but they don't have any pete de foix gras. That'll that'll give everyone a chuckle at the upper classes. Yeah, I like where you're coming from this with this whole idea of these you know, the wastefulness seeing like Toads Graveyard of all the ruined boats and things that he just ruins everything that he touches and just has enough money.

He's got all those statues of himself in his yard. But wait a second, statues of himself in the yard, ruins everything he touches. A destructive, pompous psychopath who does this remind me of an American politics and it looks like a frog. Well I was with you with Mitch McConnell there, but he's more of a turtle. I suppose.

All right, that's fair. No more bubble, no more squeak guys. Yeah, again, like this is for an American audience, do they even know what that is, you guys know, is right like I thought I did. But I think I keep mixing it up with bangers and mash because when they showed the cabbage, I was like, oh, is there cabbage and bubble? Oh okay, yeah, I'm a squeek is like potatoes and cabbage, right, it's like a it's a Yeah.

Well I thought I thought bubble and squeak was like a was like sausages that sort of make that sound like when they heat up they make. That's bangers and mash on the same page. Yeah, Bubbles and squeak is like potatoes and cabbage cooked together. But they don't bubble and squeak do they? Maybe they do.

I don't know why it's called bubble or squeak. Yeah, but no American is going to know what the fuck bubble or squeak is. I guess not. I mean again, this is for This was written a hundred and fifteen years ago. I don't get stuff that was done four years ago.

So you know we've all got our blind spots. Well, it's just it's weird to me that this is something that someone wanted at that time in eighty sea, Like what a what with all like with teenage mutant ninja turtles and fucking ThunderCats and there are things like that. It's like they didn't even they didn't even attempt to make this lighthearted. It feels like oddly serious too. It's like he lost his house, he's going to jail.

It's like, wow, what can can sympathize with what he's going through or like understand even like well, it's it's so odd. Like my favorite part was when it's like, okay, we finally were his friends. When they it's like they do an intervention right repent. It's like tear its clothes off and then put him in a room in his underwear and badger. You go yell at him yeah and make him feel like shit, and we'll wait outside and then we'll just keep him locked up in that room for weeks.

And the guy's getting so desperate. It's like a heroin fix that he needs to have a gadget, you know, he needs to have He's got the need, the need for speed. He like breaks out of like like rehab and goes on a fucking tear and now it's stolen cars and prison breaks, guys out of control. His whole weird thing of like I'm pretending to drive a card. I'm like, you're having a psychotic break, my friend.

Now that you mentioned the heroin, it does make sense why mister Toad called Badger doctor Penway at some point, So it makes perfect sense. It's it's that scene where the Toad is in the in the tree driving was Oh my god, just like it's like you're fucked man, like, oh yeah, chill, chill, mister t And mister Toad is just a ball of energy. Oh yeah. He's the kind of person where if you tied him down to a table, he'd be walking out the door with the table on his back. People be like, he's like you can't stop me.

I don't care. Like all right, Like we all have a friend like that, right, maybe hopefully not anymore. It's like we we any more. It's a it's a personality type, but it's a very adult person like there aren't I don't know, maybe there are kids that are just like uncontainable, you know, Dennis the Menace. That's what that's what it is.

Obsession. Yeah, no, the whole obsessive thing. I mean, I I have had people in my life I don't try to anymore. But where they just obsessed and obsessed and obsessed, and it's like it drives me crazy. Usually it's about things they have absolutely no control over, as opposed to mister Toby, who can just go out and buy a car and wrecord car.

But it's very destructive, you know, and it's also very dangerous. Who knows who he might kill? I mean he almost takes out Ratty in one of the very first scenes. He ends up stuck in a tree up in his boat. Yeah, when he does the boat thing and apparently creates like a tsunami right destroys at of the town.

You literally see houses. It's like he's destroying people's homes. I mean, is everyone just cutting him slack Richard his house up on a hill. Okay, he's fine, But Chris and Mike all I'm asking he was Why would anyone tolerate such a destructive force who who destroys everything in their path, doesn't really care about anyone else and portrays themselves as a victim. Oh wait a second, I'm talking about that American politician again.

But again, like, I don't know why anybody would, like, why would anyone want to tell that story? Is a very good question. Yeah, what's charming about someone who has so little self knowledge or ability to deal rationally with the real world outside of their own avarice context. I don't know why anyone would would celebrate that me either, And it's weird because that's that is the feeling that it strikes now for me, is like Toad's just kind of a prick like and again, like there are there are good qualities of his character, but it feels like he's overwhelmingly a problem and he has like minor redeeming qualities, which yeah, I mean again like even like people in the real world, like there are people that are just overwhelmingly negative, and yeah, there's still people and they still deserve to exist and experience life like the rest of us.

But doesn't mean I need to interact with them, and it doesn't mean I need to have a story told about them to kids, trying to make it not about how much of a rich asshole the character is. Look, we're a bunch of wokesters clearly talking about a rich Toad cartoon and it needs to be canceled. That's that's the big takeaway here. It's I'm kidding obviously, but It's very strange because these they're not making The Wind in the Willows in twenty twenty three, like that's you know, But I'm amazed at how many adaptations they've had of it. Yeah boy, isn't that the truth?

Wow? As recently as O six, which which made me realize that Bob Hoskins was still alive and oh six because he was in that adaptation. Oh boy. Yeah. Well, let's just say that I think I would rather see Toad in Die Did and Served Time, and I would like it if they locked him up to prove that no one's above the law.

In that version, Bob Hoskins plays the badger and Matt Lucas plays the toad. Boy. Yeah, it's Matt Lucas. He most people would know him in the US as he was both Tweedledee and Tweedledumb and that horrific. Uh.

Tim Burton adaptation of Alison Wonderland also was in What Was It? What Was the It was him and another guy and they had Little Britain was their comedy show. Or if you're a big fan of bake Off, he's been one of the two co hosts for the last three seasons and it's just been terrible. He's not funny, but no Fielding is, and no Fielding is was doing everything he could to put that show on his back to make it funny, because yeah, Matt Lucas is not funny, so yeah, it makes sense that he's the Toad. Another version of the Toad in ninety five was played by Rick Mayo.

Okay, I can see that, and the animated that was another animated m oh boy, Yeah, I can see him really chewing through that. That would be good. And then there was another made for TV animated movie that featured Hugh Laurie as the Toad as well. Yeah, what is this like? Is like Hamlet?

Like every actor must do it at least once? What the flay the toad lay the tude? Well? And then there was so much to bring to this character. I my Immortal Worlds of Charles Nelson Riley.

Well, then there live action Wind in the Willows from ninety six that had like half of Monty Python in it, Yeah, which I was curious about, but I didn't go down that path. I want to watch it so badly. It has Terry Jones as mister Toad. Yeah yeah, and I think he directed it too, uh, yeah, and it's a Steve Coogan as the mole and Eric Idol as the rat and Nimble Williamson as mister Badger, which oh wow, yeah that was very fitting. Yeah, I would watch that, but I've heard of it, which makes me worry that it's not as great as we would hope.

I mean, it's a live action. It's a live action version of the Wind in the Willows where it's actors playing animals. But did they have like animal makeup on or are they just like being themselves? Um? Well, if Terry Jones on the poster, is any indication he's green?

Okay, Oh my god boy, that might be a m I'm sure it's real. Good Jesus. It was positively regarded but was a box office bomb. Very much looks like okay, yeah, this person has a tail and yeah Terry Jones's all right. Well yeah, Eric Idle has whiskers, but that's about it as far as his rat appearance looks kind of surrealistic.

There's a talking son that looks like Michael palin Tho. Yeah, kind of a weird thing. Okay, So so it's an hour and a half. It's Wind in the Willows, it's got some music. It's faithful to the book.

It ends with with a a slightly reformed but not really reformed mister Toad who who basically is now saying I'm going I really am going to repent and I'm going to I'm going to make amends for everything I've done, but then slowly begins embellishing his own um repentance to the point where where it seems very overdone. He's basically saying, it's going to be the greatest repentance of any repentance, right, and and and and it ends with him going, it'll it'll be the most modesty anyone's ever seen, the greatest, biggest modesty ever. Right, you know, I'm a hundred times more to us and now art exactly exactly, and and and you you you know, you're left with oh, okay, right, he's he isn't really reformed, that old Reprobate's that he's he's a buddy guy, like, but but are you going to destroy shit again and go to jail and get away with it?

Like? Are you going to do these things again? Gets into therapy and um and and maybe does rehab and really works on himself. Yeah, mister Toad needs help. He does, he really does.

So should we switch gears here, Fellas, Yeah, let's let's go talk about the version of mister Toad that might actually somewhat be lovable. At least he's cute, he's so yeah, it's very interesting. So the Reluctant Dragon and mister Toad. So apparently Kenneth Graham also had a character called the Reluctant Dragon. I did not up the Reluctant Dragon either, because I figured this is probably a little little field from what he wrote.

But I mean, basically, there's a dragon who is allergic to daisies. I mean, I'm coming in cold here people. The episode we watched, you know, it seemed like it was the middle of the pack type of thing, so I'm not sure I didn't see the origin story. This is the first episode of the show. Why right, Okay, this is the first episode of the show.

They do like a fox and play these out of order or something. Well, we'll hang on to to well, just to be clear to the listener, we're now going back seventeen years to nineteen seventy and now this is the project that Rankin and or Bass was referring to when they had that meeting with ABC, and it's like, we've already done this, but if they want it again, that's great. And this is a half hour Saturday morning cartoon that is broken into three little stories. And I believe we watched the very first episode, which had two stories about the Reluctant Dragon, and then in the middle was a story featuring mister Toad, Ratty and Molly and Badgery. I think that's how every single episode goes, because I'm looking at all of the titles of the episodes and like in the next one, you know, Casey Toad is the middle segment.

Two after that it's Ghost of Toad Hall, It's the middle segment. So I think each one of these was Reluctant Dragon, mister Toad, and then Reluctant Dragon again, and the Reluctant Dragon one is I mean, it's very similar here, and I'm going to have to bring up bowl Minkle. This is super similar to Bowlwinkle. Especially the voice of the dragon reminded me of Bowl Linkle a lot. But with Bowlwinkle, you know, you always had like the one segment and then there was a break and it was either like Asop's Fables or the major mcbragg or whatever the guy's name was.

There was I was that middle section, and then you would run back to the second part of the Bullwinkle story. And that was always good too, because after the first part they would have the you know, stay tuned for, and then they would have the alternate titles for the next one. It kind of reminded me a little bit of Police Squad, but these were actually, you know, two different titles that they would give you or so and so, and there were always great puns which I always appreciated. Well, yeah, it was the guy. The guy doing the voice of the dragon is Hermie from Oh really Rudolf who does and he does two voices.

He does the dragon and and he does the little the tiny Viking. Definite. Yeah. Another joke is the big Viking and the king are both done by and I'll find their name in a minute, but by the guy who's you know, who's the manager of the owl can I think? Yeah, what's his name again, Carol Bannis, Carl Bannis, Yeah, that's the guy.

And then whose is it? Dantist? Yeah, that was pretty good, right, thank you, thank you. I think the version of the episode that we watch as that's it. Yeah, did have a episode segment out of order, because on Wikipedia at least it says one of them that we watched is not from the first episode.

I will say I think I enjoyed this a lot more than I enjoyed the full length narrative, only because this seems to be the right way to do these characters, where it's like seven to eight minutes if that, Like, I don't I don't need to see Toad for an hour and a half, like Holy Moley, Like I'm not sure I need to see Mickey Mouse for an hour and a half either, unless you've made it really compelling stuff like just these, this level of character and this level of storytelling is better suited for a shorter narrative than an hour and a half long one. I think, just a general rule of thumb when we're talking children's animation, children's can't see me. I'm doing quotations in the air, because this is an audio fucking narrative, not a video one.

But I think this, I mean, I feel like the movie was made for kids, and I do feel like it's a hard sell to try to sell an hour and a half long thing for kids when it's literally like, very very unengaged. This is engaging. What's interesting too that I had forgotten that the Reluctant Dragon was also a Disney character. So I when you said, because, yeah, I read about that connection of Wind and the Willows and the Sleepy Hollow story and I was like, well, why didn't they do the Reluctant Dragon as well as Wind and the Willows. And if I was reading about this and I remember the character.

When I look at the character design, I'm like, Okay, I've seen this character before, but reading about I guess maybe it's an early version of this for Disney, where it was an actor playing someone trying to get their animated film made. I'm like, I don't remember that at all, but I do remember the actual I think it was, I don't know, an hour and thirteen minute movie of that, which I imagine is probably very episodic. So it sounds very similar to what we were just talking about. Well, what's crazy is Disney has it on Disney Plus. You can watch The Reluctant Dragon on Disney Plus.

It's part of their animation collection of classic short films. So nice. Yeah, well, you know, and that's the thing I mean Disney and Ranking on Bass have kind of been like going back and forth with what they're doing. I mean, Disney never does an a magic that is a Ranking and Bass thing, and I feel like that was kind of a missed opportunity that Disney never took it a step further into a different medium. They seemed solely contented to do animation, like hand drawn animation, and I kind of wish Disney had been pushed by Ranking and Bass and their success to do something else because we've never really mentioned that on this show, the kind of the Disney connection here, but it's more apparent now than with anything else we've talked about, given that this is a Disney I mean again, I have a I have a hand drawn picture that I got from my wife when we were in Disney World their last time of because you know, they have the people that will like do a hand drawn sketch for you of a Disney character, so they I have one of mister Toad.

That's how I like mister Toad in the Disney version. And like, it's weird because we've never talked about Disney on this show, but it's the first time word Rankin and Bass and Disney have a thing that they've both done, and I actually think that the show version is pretty interesting. I don't think, I know, good or bad is kind of unimportant, but I think it's a better done version of Mister Toad than that movie that they would end up kind of throwing together. From the sound of it, well, from the one that we watched, it feels like they boiled it down where it's every little story is going to be about a hair brained scheme on the part of mister Toad and and then his friends get pulled along and and are the sort of the oil to his vinegar, and maybe they can keep things from you know, spiraling totally out of control, which is about right for a seven minute story for finals.

Well, and again it's it's more about taking those characters and just doing things with them as opposed to the character and the story that they come from. Right. It's again because Mole Badger and mister Toad there's such kind of big characters that you can put them in a scenario and just let the scenario dictate what's going on. But you have these big characters that are well defined. It's like Winnie and the Pooh, right, which I know you had mentioned it before, Mike about a mill.

And also, Eh Shepherd did the hand drawing for the original Wind in the Willows and the original Winnie and the Pooh, So there's that kind of secondary connection as well between Wind and the Willows and Winnie the Pooh. I mean, Wind and the Willows is a big book in terms of like the amount of times it's been adapted, both you know, live action and animated, and the amount of things have been done from it. But it's I just don't think it's a story that has you, you know what, It has a place in twenty twenty three, but you would have to do it the way that we've kind of hinted at, which is make it satirical, make it kind of tongue in cheek, make it more adult, make it like a like you could do like a Mister Toad thing for HBO Max or something where it's like, you know, you've got this asshole who doesn't really I mean it's like always sunny, right, Just make him a terrible character and make that part of the appeal.

I don't know, Like I mean again, it's it's not like we don't have characters like Tony soprano who murder people, Walter White, who's a drug dealer. Like it's not like we're not used to terrible people. It's just there's got to be more to it than you're just rich. Like so we just in other words, it's just like curb your enthusiasm. But with mister Toad, like, well, no I just call him, we just call him Toad.

But but we just cast, you know, a comedian and surround him with you know, Richard Lewis and Jeff Garland and you know, just kind of it writes itself. Yeah, but again like we we have terrible characters leading shows. But yeah, mister Toad, I don't know, he's just rich. Like this god more to you, man, like at least make me hate you, just for more than just being rich. And like a lay about we get Nick Kroll.

I think Nick Roll is the main guy, and then Paul Sheer could be you know, Moley, Mike's favorite. I think Raddy would be better. We've got that gap between this teeth. It would probably work. Well, there you go.

I'm not putting him down. I'm just saying I think that would be better casting. Actually, you know, Jason man sukis would be better as mister Toad because he has that sort of man insanity. I pictured him stealing a bunch of cars. I could see that.

I could see that. Yeah, it's the story that they tell is interesting because there there is this kind of dickishness as far as him coming along and being like, hey, I want your bathtub and dumps Raddy out of the bathtub, or hey, I need this oxygen thing that you're keeping your orchids in, and then the orchids die and he steals the oxygen thing, and then he goes to Badger and I can't remember what he steals from him. Is that the engine or something, the something in his kitchen I think it is. Yeah, and then he's like, oh, hey, you guys, come along with me and check out my new submarine. And then everything goes wrong because he hasn't built everything into it.

But at least he gets out of the submarine and tries to save them. Because I don't see that Toad, that Charles Nelson Riley version of Toad doing that. I would see him being like, oh my god, there's a squid out here. I can't do anything, and then like Raddy would be like, oh all right, let me put on the wetsuit and go outside and see if I can reason with this thing. Why wouldn't you know in the version of the movie Toad, he would just leave them.

Yes, he's an amphibia. Later see you guys, I mean you're trapped underwater in the summer animals. Yeah, see you guys, Like that's what he would do. I did like that. I didn't notice that where it's like, all right, I fucked up, Like, let me go and fix it, and then he like makes octopus for them at the end.

I mean he's trying to be He's trying to be very nice. He is cute. I do like the animation style. I really like it. I like the animation style.

I'm not gonna lie. I like very different from the Reluctant Dragon. Though, you've got definitely got two teams, distinct teams working on this show. I'll take I'll take this and these two teams over Gallam the Toad. Yeah, but how do you feel about Reluctant Dragon?

Do you like him? Are you engaged with the character of I'm afraid of things? No, I mess things up but then things work out anyway? Is it implied that in like his intro he kills a child. Did you guys notice that where he like he goes flames and there's like a child standing next to and they's just like like like what ye Like, he's reluctant.

He'll murder only if he needs to. Reluctant. Don't make me kill again. Reluctant child murdering dragon. What is the reluctant in reference to?

If not him murdering people? I wait to have the definition of what the dragon is reluctant to do. Well, it's kind of like unforgiven kill too many already. He doesn't want to go back to his old ways. He just wants to be left on his farm raising the children he had with the woman he loves.

But the modern world comes back a knocking on his door. Just when I got out, they pulled me back again. It's just like it's just like The Godfather's three. It's I think the reluctant Dragon is fine. That's just a very hard character to get excited in.

Oh, I'm just I'm scared of everything. It's like fukay, like fine whatever. Like this show lasted what one season, right, seventeen episodes? I think, right? Yeah, it was not a hit, No, no, And like I said, I felt that it was cropping a lot from Bulwinkle and to the point where I honestly thought it was one of the bowl Linkle voice actors.

So thank you for correct me on that that it's Paul Souls. But I mean, I was just listening to it again. I'm just like, I hear that Bulwinkle inside of his voice a lot, But Bullwinkle is actually a better character. Oh, Bullwinkle's a much better character. And Bullwinkle he's great that he's that fool that can just walk through everything and never be affected, kind of like mister Magoo.

Yeah, like there's there's there's commonalities with all these characters that that appeal. And mister Toad to a certain extent, kind of walks through unaffected by the you know, and leaves wreckage in his wake. Reluctant Dragon is we're gonna take a thing that children are usually afraid of, and we're going to recast him as the one who is afraid. Casper the friendly ghost for the bull, fernand the bull. We're going to take the We're gonna take the thing, but but kids will identify because it's like you know, because kids are often afraid and kids are reluctant, and so they will automatically identify with and sympathize with his character, which what you get.

And it's like, okay, right, we've we've seen many many versions of that, and now it's just a matter of how how engaging and entertaining is this iteration? You know, the one thing we didn't talk about when it came to mister Toad was the wayfarer and the last apparent voice performance by Paul Freese. So and to say that he went out on that character, but you know, at least he what I'm out working for Ranking and Bass, because he definitely did a lot of work for them, working until the end. I was actually surprised that he was just doing the one voice. Yeah, I was expecting a lot more.

I mean, I was expecting a lot more, only because it's Paul Freeze who does like who did so much. Honestly, you know, if if if you think back on it now, I'm thinking about this animation style and that one that rank in Ambass eighty seven one, it's almost like it's almost anime adjacent, like it's like very rough studio ge like especially the people, the people, but also I don't know, like it's not as competently made, don't get me wrong, but like then you look at this and it's like very much seventies, but it has it feels like it's in the seventies, Like I was, I was trying to think about it more. It feels very throughout like Studio Geeblie early and rough, which is okay, but I personally prefer this like seventies animation style.

I think it has a lot of character, comparatively character kind of character that I like, But then you got to give it interesting characters to focus on, and reluctant dragon is just whatever, we get it. You're a mister Toad guy, You're not a relected You know, one is divided, You're one or the other. Pick a side. That's right, because the final battles come. Guys, it looks like Carl Bannis might still be alive and what bed four years old?

Get him? Yeah? I was looking because he went and became a radio DJ in the later part of his life, UM, starting in eighty seven, so right around the Mister Toad time here UM and he was in UM on a couple Canadian radio stations. And um, yeah, it says that he's still around, so we got to get him. That would be kind of neat though, years right, right, yeah, I'll go up to the Toronto and start knocking on doors.

Do you know, Carl Bannis No, now leave me alone? Right, Yeah, they're they're Canadian. Wouldn't say no? Oh jeez, I wish I did. I just I don't know.

I'm so sorry. So, Mike, what are we talking about? On the next episode of Ranking on Bass. We will be back next month with a look at the ballot of Smokey Bear. And I think there's also a Smokey Bear TV show.

I was about to say there is. Yeah, so we'll be doing kind of a twofer again where we're talking about a special and an animated show. So thank you so much for tuning in. I want to thank Abby Stabby for our artwork, as well as the Great Octopus for our theme music. Be sure to subscribe to us on your favorite podcast platform.

Until then, be sure to rate and review of the podcast wherever you get it, Tell your friends, tell your family, and please stay weird. The sh