The Cook, The Thief, His Wife, and Her Lover

Yeah, weird, weir, So I want to preface this entire conversation by showing my age. It was really weird to see Dumbledore being such a dickheaded this movie. This is good. This is like, without a doubt, one of the greatest performances in cinema history, if not. Like I was reading some articles and I was doing again the research necessary to put on a show of the quality of this one, depending on how you look at it.

And Dennis Hopper is mentioned in Blue Velvet along with our dear friend mister Michael Gambon in The Cook the Thief, his wife and her lover, And I would think that that's a pretty apt comparison, only if you're trying to downplay how in fuck insane Michael Gambon is in this movie, because I genuinely find his character in this movie to be so off putting that I can't stop watching it, which is the sign of quality. Right, Albert Speaker would destroy Frank Booth. Right. I don't even want my beloved Frank Berth to be in the same room with Albret, to be honest and fright, because it's like Frank birth is, like, I get it, but I have like such love, and I feel weird, sort of twisted joy with watching Dennis Hopper as Frank Booth.

I mean blue velvets of movie I've watched numerous times. Michael Getbon is beyond brilliant, well and everything, but he's really like his performance here is so fucking good and he is compelling, But I don't I haven't seen a film where I've wanted a protagonist to get fucking hurt and violated, like I like Albert since like Alex Derenzi's femdo Sade like this guy, I mean, holy shit, But Michael give On. I forgot he was Dumbledore, by the way, because I've only seen the first two Harry Potter movies, and that was Robbie Coltrane, I believe, Yeah, that's Richard Harris. Richard Harris will go. I don't give a ship dropped me.

Robert Coltrane plays ha Rober Coultrian plays Hagrid, which which, to be fair, uh, Hagrid is a great character. And Robbie Coltrane he's perfectly passed. I don't give a shit either. But however, Richard Harris is no I loved. I love Richard Harris's cover of MacArthur Park.

Well, he's the original. His version MacArthur Clark is is mentioned now Donna Soper's cover and it's phenomenal. I I listen, I fucking I'm not. I'm not the Harry Potter burst and obviously no offense. Dave E loves it.

It's been a week. It's been a week. So the lady over here, Okay, look, I get it. I think the thing I'm I'm more angling at with the showing of the age is I understand now why they cast Michael Gambonis as Dumbledore. And I actually there's a moment in Harry Potter that seems very Albert Speaker of Dumbledore.

Uh it is the father Malone. Do you know what the moment I'm talking about? Right? People delivered the line calmly in the book. However in the movie it was not calmly delivered at all.

Elgoing bellowing is the work? Like does he say cool blindly? You wouldn't organized the rape bit of pro Michael Gamblin is the best thing in Tim Burton's Sleepy Hollow as well. I think I think of him out, Oh, get out of here. There's nothing really good in that movie.

Except I don't know, Christopher Walking is so hot when he kisses Britta Richardson and all that blood. Yeah, I know all the goth girls went went crazy. But listen, that's not that's not that does not that is not the headless Horseman. That's that was all a mistake with the file teeth and everything. Anyway, Michael Gambon is fantastic, fantastic here yes singing.

You know what, Chris, I'm actually glad you brought that up because, uh, I knew Michael Gambon primarily from this. This was the first thing I ever saw him in. So when he got to Dumbledore, I'm like, wow, yeah, man, he could just do everything, this guy. But it occurred to me that there's a generation now that's come up with this guy as this benevolent father figure, right and now to looks like on his past. You know, I was thinking today, I want to cut the a little like like Dumbledore remembers like his past, and and and cut in Albert speak of doing all these despicable things like it's got to be jarring for somebody like yourself.

And then Dumbledore told me to stick a train up my ass. Yeah you're right, Yeah, it's it's I again, like I knew he was in this movie obviously, but yeah, it's it's a little disarming for this guy to be so well loved by so many people my age for something that again is very father figure adjacent, even though one would contend his character is I mean again complex and then is ruined. But he's gay. I promise he's gay. And speaking of being gay, I am your host of the Culture Cast, Christasue Still and I'm joined by my two good friends all the way from Noise Junkies and Dark Destinations, Father Malone, You're all Cannibal and all the way also from Noise Junkies and Mondoheather dot Com, Heather Drain.

Good evening, and my apologies again for for vansus fascin about the Potter Universe. That I do love this movie. I'm looking forward to diming in. And yeah, we're talking about a little film that I had never seen before to give it away, but I know was important to Father and Malone and Heather, you obviously wanted to be on this episode. So people have opinions and I want to hear.

And we're talking about nineteen eighty nine's The Cook, The thief, his wife and her lover. It's the controversial film Time Magazine calls excellent, exciting, extraordinary, diabolically funny, raised rolling Stone, the cook, the Thief, his wife and her lover Rayglo. Film is directed and written by Peter Greenaway, and it stars the aforementioned Michael Gambon as well as Helen Mirren and the voice of the ring himself, Alan Howard. Helen Mirren plays Georgina or Georgia as he keeps calling her over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. A couple who well, Michael Gambon is the titular thief who goes and gets himself ingratiated and essentially owns a restaurant by the magic of strong arm.

He goes and eats at the restaurant every night with his troop of pals and players, including Tim Roth and Helen Marin, who plays his wife. His wife then finds a lover at the restaurant, played by the aforementioned Alan Howard, and well, wouldn't you know it, Michael Gambon finds out and all hell breaks loose in what can only be described as some of the hardest to watch scenes I've seen in quite some time, if not ever bother and Bloon. I'm gonna kick it to you first. I am very curious and I know that this movie has a very special place in your heart. You don't have to go into the two personal stuff if you don't want to.

But I want to know when you first saw this what you thought then. And I know this was not a second time rewatching, just for this episode. So I saw this in April of nineteen ninety at the Assembly Square Low's Movie Theater in Somerville, Massachusetts. I was tending with my height school girlfriend and she was he was actually wearing my you know, she was wearing my coat. At the time.

I had read that this movie was going to be in a local cinema cinema plex and not an art house downtown in Boston, and was thrilled to go. And while waiting in line, my girlfriend went got in the concession line and we were waiting on a little holding pen for the next screening. I was standing next to a gentleman with a tape recorder and a beanie, and he evidently was a reviewer from The Phoenix, which was a local like like an LA weekly type independent newspaper in Boston, and he and I were talking about Peter Greenaway, who I knew of but had never seen any of his films. And this man could not believe that a Peter Greenaway film was playing in a multiplex at the end of a mall. Basically, he could not believe that an anarchist film film such as this would be playing in such a consumer nightmare.

And my girlfriend at the concession stand called my name and waved to me, and I waved back to her and of the concession girl, and so my memory of the night was then seeing the movie and then remembering this British journalist years later. It would well not years later, because later that summer I got a job at that movie theater, and the girl who had waved to me, the concession girl, did so because she was admiring the buttons on the lapels of my girlfriend's jacket and saying that she was into every single thing that she was into, thinking it was her jacket. And then she had said, oh, no, that's my boyfriend's and pointed back over her shoulder to me. Seventeen years later, I married the concession So that was so this movie has an incredible place in my heart and and mine.

But I don't want you to think that any of that will will color my analysis of the film. But it is incredibly important to me. It's an incredibly important to me, an incredibly important film to me just in general. But it is also kind of freighted with this life changing moment, Eather, I kick it to you, Well, we should have had like Bumbling go last, because like neither one of us are going to like follow that tremendous, like cinematic, beautiful, magical story. I let him go first because I knew that's what it was.

God damn. Well, now I'm just gonna be like Queen of the horseshit. But that but that's okay. I will wear my crown bladly. No, that's that's beautiful.

And I'm also very jealous you got to see any Peter Greenaway film in a theater period, because that's amazing. My encounter with this film is my two early memories of it was when all the controversy and the ratings battle it happened, Which is funny because if you look at up one, IMDb and even Wiki, there's really barely if any hint of that but this is a big deal, and I think it's really important for people to always remember any sort of potential for censorship and suppression that art goes through. That's why I'm also it's probably reason why to bring that up now with this there is especially after seeing it, because it's like, you know, I mean, yeah, there's nudity, there's violence, it's a it's a movie for adults.

This isn't Pixar. So just you know, the MPa is stupid, is my point. And but I remember the ratings battle. I remember it played on Cinemax and I was like I knew it was like already I knew Helen Mirron was in it, and I wanted to see it. And then on top of that, my English teacher, because I'm in high school in this time period, Ms Ragland, who was a really great supporter of my writing early on, and that was long before I even thought I could ever like write Hubbed like professionally or you know, I had no faith in my any spability in that arena.

But she that we both loved art films, and after class she was telling me about it. But she would tell me about films that she wouldn't mention other kids, because I mean, I grew up in Springdal, Arkansas, I was very conservative area, and but she was like, you know, she's like, there's this beautiful like you know, singing in this film, and like she kept talking about the like the choral boys singing and you know, and I really, this is a woman. I wish I would have kept in touch with she. She's the one that got me to see my to see Breaking the Waves, which traumatized me. But I'm grateful for it.

And unfortunately I only forgot to see parts of this movie. I could never find it to rent, and the one time I caught it on cable, I caught it piecemeal, and because I was still underage and living obviously under my parents room if they woke up and I got freaked out because Helen Mirren's in the bathroom stall with reply, and I was like, oh shit, I'm gonna get in trouble. So I like switched it to you know, MTV, and I never got to finish it until recently, like when you sent us the list and said this was up, I was like, Oh, finally I could finally see this film that's been kind of haunting the periphery of my brain for fucking years and finally see what my teacher had been recommended. Yes, it has taken me that long to see this movie.

And by defense. Peter Greenaway is a filmmaker who, despite being this amazing auteur in one of a kind visionary, his films are ridiculously like almost his entire filmography are out of print. Like still, Chris, I hope when you played the trailer. You played the trailer that's currently on the Plex server, which is the video trailer for Vidmark's release of the film where they make it sound like it's a romantic comedy like Rolling Stones. It's deliciously well.

I honest to god, loved that trailer when I saw that trailer, Like, what is this movie then? Because this is not at all what I thought? Uh yeah, So I had never seen this before. I knew the only thing I actually knew about it was how much of an impact it made on you, father, I think specifically. I mean I had heard you tell that story before, so I was like, I know nothing about this movie.

Actually, take the back. The only thing I knew was the cannibalism thing. I knew that there was some cannibalism at some point. That's all I knew, And as an ex fan of cannibalism, I mean, that's that's not okay. Let me take that back, because there is a world of ways to be taken out of context there.

I'm not a fan of people eating people. I'm a fan of cannibalism in pop culture because when it's done right and done interestingly, it's done really well. And do I ravenous see that movie? They'll never see it. Oh my god, it's the cannibal movie.

Huh. Yeah, that's one with Guy Pearce right where they're like in an old French Canadian like period piece. Correct. Oh, it's like it's just the American wilderness. Okay, American wilderness.

I thought it was like on the Canadian border. Basically. Yes, it's an Indigo teil with Robert Carlisle. It's it's very, very good. It's come up twice in the last month now, so I probably will now set aside time to watch it.

But that's all I knew about the movie was the Cannibal is am Angle. And again, how how kind of important it was to you, father Malone, So that may have swayed me putting it on this list, But again. It also this month is all about movies that are food centric or have food at the center of them. And I mean most of this movie takes place in Little Bees, which is the restaurant, so either in the front of the house or the back of the house. I mean, there's very little outside of that.

There are parts that take place outside of it, but they're not They're not as much as there is in the restaurant. But I'm glad that it's all in the restaurant for a number of reasons that we will does he get to This is a really wild, off putting, intentionally off putting movie. I think it's a visually dense movie in a lot of ways. I think it's also I think there's a lot going on. It feels like an important movie.

There are parts of this movie that felt like they're important for everything ever in terms of in human existence. I don't know how else to describe it. There were moments of this movie that we're arresting, and that is hard in this day and age, as someone who watches as much things as we all do, to be genuinely arrested by something. But there are several moments in this movie that are genuinely arrested. All that being said, what a good horror movie, right right?

Like? What a good yeah, what a good mom strategy, what a great romance? Right like? And that's the thing, like it is so many things at once that it is it is its own thing, and it being its own thing puts this movie in a special group of movies that are kind of under finable, but that makes them what they are in a lot of ways. And this movie is up there.

This is actually a fucking insane movie. I swear to god. Before I watched this movie, I thought it was based off of something else. But to find out this is just its own thing is even more impressive, I feel like. And also I have to say it because again, certain people of a certain age may not feel this way.

Man, she's really good looking now, but Helen Mirren in the eighties and nineties, like whoa. It's like, it's insane, like because she's amazing looking now and it's twenty twenty three. This movie came out thirty three years ago, thirty four years ago. Like, everybody in this movie is good looking except for Michael Gamble. And I mean, you gotta draw the line somewhere at the turn of the century when everyone got hip to Helen Mirren.

I not only thought of her here, but I thought of her from a decade earlier, when she was an ex caliber like she has always been a luminous being on the on the cinematic front. And but to me, this is this is the role I think of when I think of Helen Mirren. And it's a fantastic performance. We see as much as he bellows, as much as Michael Gamban bellows and rages like she does just the same with her silences in this film. It's fantastic.

Yeah, it's I mean, every performance in this movie's fantastic, right, Yeah, and surprising sometimes in that I have seen this movie. I saw this movie once in nineteen ninety. I saw it again about seventeen years later, and then I watched it again two nights ago, and then was struck for the first time that the tall menacing George Harrison look alike was Kiaran Hines from the HBO television series Roam and Munich and every Russian agent of the past twenty years or so. My god, he's so lot. Not only is everyone good, it is as you said, Christ, everyone is beautiful here yeah, like him Roth his first thing, and he's so fresh faced.

It's like he he like he came out of it like somebody carved him. So tim Roth is, yeah, he's baby tim Roth here, but tim Roth in the eighties, Like even though he's definitely more like kind of small supporting role, this role in this film to me almost feels like a progression from you know, he was in Ray Davies short film Return to Waterloo as like this punk is one of these punks that kind of like seemed like quite as menacing here, but definitely a little like scruffy and and honestly, tim Roth has always been such a star because even in that he's in that movie for like three minutes, and even then you're like, oh my god, I love this guy, like he's so he's so good. And think about it this time period, like this is around, This may be a little bit after him.

Try I think it's a little bit after before Rosencrats and Gilderstern are dead. No, this is before it will have to be right, Yeah, following year when I found out that Vicious and the guy from Cook see if we're going to be one of my fucking favorite teenage existential fucking comedies. Holy god, whoa you said? Teet it it's it's still it's still smacks so hard. I love it.

I read it once a year. It's just it's a hard read. But it's a good read. Uh, it's it. I disagree.

I fly through that phane, but you know what I mean, Like it's hard in terms of like the existential dread comes right back every time you read. Oh it's a it's a breezy read. Yeah yeah, oh so yeah that's some I loved him rock. Also, if anybody can get a chance see Return to Waterloo, like it's a crime and yes it's the Ray Davies from the Inks. Uh, like yeah, but he made this amazing short film called Return to Waterloo that is like one part musical, one part kind of like really horror per se.

But there's like sort of a thread of like a killer on the loose. There's possible ancestual lingy leanings like it's it's so it's such a cool thing. But yeah yeah, but here, like Timbroth is totally like this kind of like slimy, like dumb kind of parrot to Yeah, it's like he's he's Albert in training, which is terrible, like Albert, Albert, the one Albert's bad enough, But that was some of the comedy, Like, because both of you are right, this is a movie, this is a horror, it is a romance, it's a comedy. The comedy comes out in these weird moments. So I love it, like because right from the beginning, at one point early on, there's a play on words because where it says speaking like Albert's last name, it looks like it's twisted and says aspect which for anybody unfamiliar, aspect is it's like gelatine, but even just more like disgusting, and like basically people would bake foods in it, because I think people were just trying to stay really skinny in the fifties and sixties.

So it's just like, let's make food is unappetized, it gets awesible, so nobody wants to eat it. Let's suspend it in jello. Let's sad slices of chicken in jello and clear like here's here's shrimp that and you know, a piece of mango floating. Yeah, And though I will say the album Lark's Tongue in aspect is really good. I like that seeing aspect at the beginning spelled out for us.

It certainly didn't dissuade my imagination at the end, the glaze on the body, I certainly had a flashback to the aspect being flashed earlier in the film. Oh wow, I didn't think about that because I think the glaze I was just thinking, is like that sugary like honey, But aspect is yeah. I could totally say that for us made it work. It's yeah, you mentioned Heather, there's like, you know, like the idea of like this the thing you were mentioning returned to Waterloo with Tim Roth, like that has many aspects to it. This there's so much going on here, Like it's really hard to any one thing down because if you take what Helen Mirren and Alan Howard are doing out of the movie, it's a soft core porn like essentially straight up in terms of just the way it's being presented, in terms of the way that it's being presented to the audience.

But then the fact that it's in everything else that there are horror movie aspects, there are aspects of other genres going on. Not really an action movie per se, but again like a mobster film, a crime crime film, which again has its different kind of moments like that. But yeah, there's just so much going on that again, Like, I don't know how to suggest this movie to people, do you know what I mean? It's kind of hard in a way to be like, you should check this movie out. I do want to suggest it, but how do I describe it to you?

Oh? I got Here's the thing. And not only is it an important film because it can it can pop so effortlessly between those genres, which is a near impossible task for any film, but it is also one of the most artistic films and most lavish and sumptionously filmed movies you're ever going to see where you're going to get theatricality because all of the sets are definitely sets. I mean the opening shot is we crane up to this set on, you know, from from behind. So I think this is one of I'm sorry to wax rapsotic almost immediately here, but like it is to me one of the most important films.

It's it's it's in my top ten or top five probably regardless as a piece of living art. Like so, I mean, there are fun movies that you can pop on anytime and watch that can kind of straddle genres and deliver in a in a narrative fashion what you want. This does that too, but it also has a lot more to say, and it has a lot more to let you interpret on your own there, Yeah, I would, I would also, Yeah, I mean this is just art. Like you, if you want to see Sindema realize at its highest potent, at one of its highest potentials, this is that film. The fact that it has these different elements, to me, that's one of the things that makes it a great art, because what is art but a way for us to process the tapestry that is life and life in and of itself is can you know has love and it has beauty, and it has lessness, and it's fucking horrible and it's violent and it's ugly and it's absurd.

This is life, and you know this film captures each one of those elements. It's so funny and probably very telling about people's like sort of puritanical mindsets because a lot so much of the ratings issues and a lot of to talk about this film initially was pretty much almost completely solely seem to be based on like the nudity and the sex. Never mind all the horrible violence you say, Like a woman gets stabbed in the face with a four that's fine, that's fine. You know, having somebody be murdered via forced to and pages of their favorite book into their body, not to mention a beautiful toe haired like angel of a child tortured not a problem. Oh my god.

These two people were naked and they were making out and I saw a penis. Oh lord, oh we can't have that. It's so fucking stupid, Like, yeah, this isn't It makes me so mad that people are so like, I mean, not everybody wants to see gory violence or you know, explicit sex. That's flat. It's a flavor.

But if you want to see something that is well made in art and that has the human experience in the condition, here you go. And to be honest, can I just say about the ratings thing, because I totally agree with you obviously, but they're going unrated rather than accepting the eggs. I think actually got it into my local cinema. Like the fur that it caused. I think made this Greenaway's most financially successful film.

Now, I don't think the ratings board were right, And I think everything in this movie you can just now probably show on television, Like would this even get an X rating? This would just be an R right if that, I mean it would be R. But but it certainly wouldn't go unrated or NC seventeen. I don't think. I think didn't they change didn't they change it to the n CSMTAM for later physical releases?

Because I don't they may have. Did they re rat it to like I think like Buster shelves or something Trub's God, don't even get me, don't even get me starting on that like that. Well know, there are two versions. Two versions of the film came out, like they had this horrible cut to shit videotape version and then they had the original theatrical Yeah, yeah, lest anybody, like any nostalgic for Blockbuster. Blockbuster would never carry unrated movies, like they would only carry censored versions of films, So fuck Blockbuster.

But but yeah no. The think the thing that's interesting, and it's kind of cool because I've actually for a separate project was reading up on and revisiting John McNaughton's Tenderly Furge of a Serial Killer because I've been reading up a lot on the actor Tom Toles, who's amazing. But they had the same thing with Henry because they wanted to write it the NBA wanted to read it x because a disturbing moral tone. That was legit. The reason because of barely most of the violence is imply to that movie, it's not graphic, which is what makes that movie so fucking air.

Yeah, that movie is legit. One of two. There's one of two movies that have truly gotten under my skin, and that's one of the Yeah, it's the same, and it's and it's a masterpiece, you know for you know, because it's a great movie on a lot of levels. But that they just went ahead and released it unrated finally, and that's yeah, I mean, no such thing as mad publicity. But it's kind of bullshit that anything.

But like with with the cook, the thief, you know, his wife and her lover. You know, I'll use the same defense at all use with them that I've had to use in the past with like film maker like Steven Sadian or Roger Watkins, is that you know, fine art has explicitness in it. So when cinema goes a little more explicit, Uh, why is that all of a sudden, like oh this is smut or that's offensive, you know what I mean? Like Picasso has explicit sexuality and his art Egon Schilet, you know, any number, like any number of art, and not to mention if my literature. Of course, a lot of those books tend to get like censored too, but you know what I mean, Like, so what you know, I've always tried to be like like anybody that has an attitude towards cinema should rethink it.

If it's still not your thing, that's fine, Like I don't, you know, like I don't want to watch a lot of movies just because it's not my thing either. I don't want to be a gatekeeper. But this movie is fucking phenomenal. I mean right out of the soundtrack, like the Michael Nymann score. And this is a guy I always associate more with the piano, like yeah, but a great I don't want to call him a minimalist, but certainly like a new wave of uh A orchestral thinking from from Michael Nyman if you haven't heard, because he put out an album and I think it was nineteen sixty eight called n Ray Don Giovanni which is like a near rock version of Don Giovanni.

That's that's a spectacular thing. And and the score here, You're absolutely right, Heather, it's this. It's gorgeous here, it's propulsive and wonderful, like it makes the cello sound appealing Fish Beach. I mean right, it's I don't know like it. The way it's used so sparingly but perfectly throughout them is I had and I had never I felt like I had heard it before somewhere else.

And obviously, I mean I've heard it, probably heard it on it yar at some point. Right, it's kind of what it feels like. It is perfect transitional music. You know, I could have just imagined Irack Glass speaking over it. But the way that it's used in this movie is in one of the more poignant scenes of the film, and it's played throughout that scene, and it is again, it's what it evokes is hard to describe unless you've heard it, But I think it evokes a similar idea anytime you listen to it.

But again, the theme of the movie, the theme of the movie, I feel like, at least for me, the big takeaway is the idea of I guess love existing in the world of reality, and that real love can exist in spite of all of these terrible things existing around it, and that you know there is even in the quiet moments literally in this you know that those small semblances of time that one can take are important because the world is a cruel place period the end, and it is I mean you've mentioned it, Heather a couple times now, the idea of like fine art being you know, having an explicit nature to it. It's just being honest, reality fucking sucks, Life fucking sucks, and finding any moment of solace in life from all of the things that do suck should be important and should be I don't know recognized, is something worth fighting for and holding on to.

And that is again I think that's obviously one of the big themes, if not the big theme of the movie. But yeah, for whatever reason for me, Fish Beache, it sounds like that idea. For whatever reason, you know, Chris, I often thought of myself as thinking of this movie in too fats aula way like and you know, because you've it opens itself up to analogy and analysis and interpretation to the ends degree. But ultimately to me that what I've took away from it the un its initial viewing and each subsequent viewing, is that on occasion in life, there are moments when a glance with another human being allows you to connect with them, and that simple act can start a revolution, which is what happens here, because everyone eventually recognizes in this restaurant the tyranny that they've been under, and how it should not be and how they'll no longer stand for it.

It's that moment and we live in poorish times, I honest to God have I may take this part out of the podcast, but I just want to say it, and I'll be the one to say it now. Has no one ever compared the character that Michael Gambon plays to Donald Trump? How because we're tired of talking about Donald Trump? But you know what I mean, right, because you know what the most horrific and on the nose portrayal of someone without it specifically being about that one person. Greenaway said that he set out in writing the character to make a villain who's a true brute, who you couldn't secretly be rooting for, like we've talks at dinner.

Is just that for me? Was it like he could do. Everything else is whatever, you know what I mean, Like, obviously everything else is really terrible as well, But the fact that this guy is talking about the things he's talking about in this restaurant is just like, but you know what, Chris. It points to the fact that they're always been this type of person, thugs with pretensions toward an air of nobility, you know, thugs who think that they're more cultured than they are, who because they are in the position no matter how they got there, no matter how slimy a fucking human being they are, that now that they're there in amongst the rarefied air that they that they'll now somehow like absorb culture.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's weird there because I think, and this is how I'm i to phrase this is admittedly kind of like simplified, but I find in life there tends to be two types of true what I call true villains, because I think most people operate we're all various shades of gray. Like I find very I don't think most people are truly like ninety nine hundred percent flucking terrible. Some are close, some were very close, but but the true like we're talking like that one percent of evil. It's either going to be that type like the Michael Gambang character, Like its gonna be Albert, you know, or Trump, if we want to call that, or it's going to be the people that basically they're insides or Albert, but they have enough sort of like seschiopathic mimicry to seem like more likable and people like you know, and and that's the only really different, you know, because I find like and I don't give a shit, I'll get okay.

Political art is political. Life is political. And ever people say, oh, I just want to talk about movies or music and not politics, it is fucking political. It is political in so many ways. Six to Sundays.

You want to defend you want that First Amendment right to have art express without censorship. Fucking politics, baby, living is politics. It's that, you know, instead of seeing people defend, you know, prior people in power saying well, least it's not Trump, but it's like, yeah, no, they're probably worse because people were like, oh, but he seems like a nice guy. You know. It's like, no, criminal is criminal.

Awful is awful. It doesn't matter if he wears it on his sleeve or not. It doesn't matter if he talks about eating eating ball sack at the dinner table at a at a at a high end restaurant, or talking about just like I think the thing that really got me was breast milk, Like, yo, dude, what like as you're touching your wife's breast, you're like talking about breast Like, man, you're just without reproach, motherfucker, aren't you. Like it's I don't know, man, Like he he's so off putting in this movie in a way that is like genuine, just genuine, like I'm not sure I can ever see my Gambond as anything else now. And he's so good it so it's like a transcendent performance, but the worst kind, you know what I mean, Like the one where it's like somebody had to do it and I guess it was you.

Man. But there are the scene where where he has his breakdown after he finds out that this bookish Alan Howard is just going going at it with his wife. He goes proper ape shit in that restaurant for what feels like ten minutes because it is ten minutes. It's just it's the most extended scene of destruction in a movie by one singular person I think I've ever seen. Yeah, I mean, and you keep thinking, I mean, and actually there's so many parts in the movie where you you think that, but that one, especially where you're like, surely, to God, somebody's gonna stab him or like put the beast down because just now when exactly, but again, like how many times in society do people do horrible things?

And you keep thinking, Surely to God, somebody's gonna stop this, and nobody does, whether out of fear whether you know, usually out of fear actually, and especially when it's the guy with the money, yeah, you know, and and it just yeah, oh god, he's so awful and the fact that he has the lion's share. And in fact, I loved the point earlier about Helen Mirren's performance because you're right, so much of hers is more just like it's her reaction and her physical presence, and she's so fucked good, which we all know. I mean, come on, if if somebody, if you're listening to this, you're not already worshiping at the altar, fell and mirror and come to the table and get ready because she's a goddess.

But uh, but yeah, I mean, he has so much dialogue and he rolls. It's such a masterful performance and you really really truly hate him. But it's not just because he does terrible things. It's bambun. He ham Been makes it feel so authentic and just like he is.

He is like just a look. I mean, I don't want to say animal because I like animals. Like he's the worst kind of animal, which is human. Is that this is her Ted talks. He's a rapid animal.

I mean, he's just there's no stopping him at any point. The only way to stop him is to feed him his own crime like and force him to eat it. Can I just say that that is my favorite part of that whole character's journey is that he is completely irredeemable. He seems to have no end to his depth, but he is disgusted by cannibalism. So at the not to jump ahead, but you jumped ahead, but to have this character who has we finally brought up something that he would is disgusted by and then he's forced to do it, and then Helen Miron delivers the line the cannibal which which is my favorite end line in any film ever and is in my estimation when people mention the word righteous.

I think they tend to think of somebody like shouting mightily, but I don't. I think of Helen Mirren saying cannibal at the end of this because it is it is such a moral judgment on this guy, and it's the one thing that he did not want to do. I don't know. I adore this. I mean, I'm I'm with you on like it's the journey that she goes on.

I mean, obviously, Alan Howard is sacked on the movie's altar, but necessarily, and it's unfortunate because he's such a likable character. You know what's coming, but you don't want it to, but you know it has to because somebody has to have judgment passed on them for this so that someone else can pass final judgment on that person, which is what happens. But yeah, I don't know, like I feel like Alan Howard almost could get lost in the shuffle of this movie with all the other performances because what he's doing is so understated and so just kind of perfect though for what this movie needed. In terms of the third you know, arm of the I mean the title, I mean again, the cook is the Cook is maybe the least represented, but realistically he's the most represented depending on how you look at it.

Physically not represented, but represented through other means. He's represented by everything. His staff represents him. They're constantly flurrying around, you know, like it's his restaurant. Ultimately, even if Albert believes that just because he forced some guy to eat dogshit that it's now his.

God, I've an Albert, I I know, I've loved the cook, and he really like in a way to me, he's almost like sort of like a moral center because it's like he basically helps love kind of foster and Bloom by giving you know, Georgina and Howard like a safety area. And there's all these beautiful which, oh my god, Like this film is a masterclass. And if I if I actually taught cinema I to like to aspiring filmmakers, I would I would be like, watch this movie and this is a masterclass on color and lighting and composition and texture. And because it's like film, like film is such a powerful medium when it's used properly, and you know, I just find like so many people just kind of like just phone it in. And I'm not talking about like both low budget I've seen like plenty of low budget films like Glitting, like Sean and Gamcord or stuff where they're like, hey, here's a huge expanse of a sky and a color of a field, and you know, and it's like, yeah, they're getting color in the air.

Like you know, Hollywood, why are your films like so bland half the time or more than the time? Like watch this movie like this is it's like going to an art gallery, but like the coolest art gallery, not pretentious or anything, just rapturous, just absolutely rapturous detail. Yeah, you know, what's the right amount of pretentious? Frank Oh, I don't any mention at all in terms of like in terms of just a production. No, but you know I'm talking about in terms of the like the Claw.

I don't know it could be interpreted that way, I don't. I mean, this movie is entirely artifice. Like I said, it's all sets. It's all very theatrical. Like at no point are you given, like even down to dialogue for for the first half hour in this film, Michael doesn't say anything and when he when he does, he finally talks about how he saw a movie where the first where the lead character didn't say anything for thirty minutes, so it is constantly reminding you how fake everything is, and yet a part of the alchemical magic of this film.

What the artifice does is it makes the characters deeper because we're never given really any rich backstory to anyone, but we don't fucking need it somehow, with all this artifice behind them. It not only makes that occur, but the violence seems to magnify geometrically against this sort of artistic background. It is. The violence is fucking horrific. The disgusting parts are disgusting, and the beautiful parts are fucking beautiful.

Yeah. Yeah, but I'm curious that Chris Late when you feel a like you feel like, did you feel like, did anything come across to you personally as partitious or is it one of those things where you're kind of being like, if somebody's a new viewer, especially if they haven't watched a lot of art House, yeah it's it's not. I did not find this movie pretentious at all, because again, for me, I understand that the way it's being framed is this is taking place on a stage, like the amplification of this I mean, that's the way stage plays are it's operatic and the level of things that are going on, like the again you mentioned tragedy at the top of this Father, I'm talking about the idea that if, yeah, if you were like the uninitiated, would be like Jesus Christ, look at the sets.

It's like, Okay, again, this is intended here because of the way it's being done. But I don't know. I mean, the fact that you saw this movie Father Malone in nineteen ninety in a strip mall is still crazy to me because of how because of how much this movie is. But that's the intent of the movie is It's not meant to not be a lot. That's why John Paul Gautier does what he does for this movie.

He wants this movie to look the way that it does. But it looks like a pretentious movie. But it's not. I agree with you one hundred percent, it's not. But it looks like it.

But that's the intention of the filmmaker. Because, like you've already mentioned to your point that Michael Gambon character is all about the artifice. He literally has no idea what he's talking about with food, He's just spouting bullshit constantly. And but there's nothing behind it, and you would just hope in real life people would see behind the goddamn artifice at some point. Obviously this character is forced, were forced behind it.

We know that there is nothing behind it. But again, like in real life, it's it's not as cut and dried as this movie wants it to. I I with the whole stage setup. I love that. I actually I love it when filmmakers do that.

And it is also a really great thing if you if you're somebody who's super very tuned in on things like lighting and kind of layering, you have so much more control over how things are going to be lit and how colors are going to show up when it's all like a theater type setup, like I know, Like not to mention Chris, obviously it's my favorite the Laker ever in a writing about him, YadA YadA, But Stephen Sadian like whether it's Cafe Flesh or Doctor Calgary, like it's everything's that a natural setting, even when it's a natural setting. But that's but that's why he's able to just manipulate it like this master painter and create a way like legit, I believe I'm a little rest it's sover wrong forgiving he actually has like that that the like that painter background, like the fight arts kind of background, and it shows like even if he doesn't, he might as well be because like the even the way the food, like when you have like you know, day one and it's a different menu, The way the food is laid out on the menus, that alone is so beautiful.

The way the way that the rooms change colors you have, like and the vibrant like here's the you know, like the restaurant interiors fibriant, crimson red. The bathrooms are like a stark white with little pale bits of pinks and yellows. And you know where the cooks are, it's green. It's like an emerald green. Almost.

One of my favorite scenes lighting wise is when it's one of the love scenes, but it's like, you know, they're shrouded by like what listen in the background. Body is a pheasant like dead feel sits but like that back walls like almost like a black kagreen, like black going into emerald green. And their bodies are with this warm golden glow. It's almost like what they call golden hour glow, like when you write right before it's dusk and it's so beautiful. I didn't even think about this film even like I didn't even personally like find it erotic.

But just like the way the bodies are lit, its to me like what you do for portraiture when you're painting, when you're doing nudes. It's not so much about like, you know, hey, guys, check out the dits, you know, stuffing like that. It's more just like, look at the human body. Look at the comedy you know you way is it painter? Uh?

And uh yeah? And obviously and what would struck me then and now even are like all of the sets are set up side by side on the sound stage so you can just track laterally, and they track laterally a lot in this film, and I know it's been compared correctly to the movement of food through the human body, like every time we we we go in and we come out that like that way, like you know, and usually after they've gone to the restroom, which is ironically the cleanest room in the in the entire building. But not only does it mimic that motion, but what I was struck by was it felt to me as if we were seeing a giant mural and slowly walking the length of a gallery, like you track laterally while you do that and go back and look at other parts that you may have missed.

So like the painterly aspects of Greenaway's work like like are sort of fully on display here and and wonderfully So oh man, that's so cool. I didn't even think about the food journey through the himy body. I love that the whole lake theme of the rooms, right down to the colors, made me think of as Roger Watkins, who's probably best in for Last House on Deadend Street, but in nineteenay too, he made a really excellent film called Corruption, and there's this whole sequence where it's almost like descended to the inferno kind of thing, but each room progressively like there's the Red room, there's the Blue room, and then by the time he gets to the Black room, it's literally dap and I kind of like wondered, I'm like, I wanted your greeda wastes all this film, Like maybe not, but it's both films will be kind of an interesting like double feature and right down to like there's that great sort of dialogue the cook has towards the end about when Georgina asked him about like, well, how do you price things?

Like but the menu changes and he talks about how black foods are the more expensive, like black coronts and black grapes and caviar and truffles, because like it's people eating death and it's giving them the false solution that you know, one can conquer death, and it's just like wow, I love that whole bit. The Cook is such a play he's such a cool character. I loved Richard Bowinger's performance as the Cook. It was really nice to see and eat. Like a film, an English language film have a French character that is played by a Frenchman, because sometimes when people that aren't French do French accents, it's some it's to me, it's always a little bit in danger of sounding like John Cleese and holy it's my altarench it's myridge just runs exit, you know, like we've all we've all seen some of those films.

Okay, it's kind of like when people not from the South to Southern accents it all said, it sounds like he hawk, it's not it's not good unless it is comedy. Yeah he haws, fine, but yeah, like did you did you guys love like I love some of the real small characters in the kitchen, Like they're like the saucier, the long haired saucier that's like he's shirtless and up until the very like end and then he puts on his finery for like Albert's you know, Cannibal, it's Annibal Robert. I love that fucking guy, Like I don't know what the saucer. He looked like a member of the French Prague group Magma, and I was down every time I saw him on the screen. I was like, there's my boy, You's a saucer.

I love. It reminded me of the Flying Karra massof Brothers, a troop of jugglers from that in nineties. Like you know, we first meet him. The movie starts and we're tracking through the restaurant for the first time in which we're going through the kitchen. We spot this guy and kind of like I thought, was man, the health codes ain't direct, like you know, you know, he makes the best sauce though, like anybody's worth in the kitchen.

The the hell the guy that's the closest to the health code violation is gonna be the guy that's like it's like you either you eat the food and you're like, dude's legit. He's probably on math. You might not watch. He's the bread guy. It's the guy that Boordain talks about in Kitchen Confidential as the bread guy is the guy who's like in the basement of the restaurant making bread and it's like, you know, wizardry and alchemy coming out of there.

But it's like we don't ask questions how he does his thing. I see to right. I do like the amount of food on screen in this movie. I do like that, you know, because again movies about food, sometimes the food is not given kind of the moment that it needs and the importance. In this movie, I think does a good job similarly to yourself.

On the last episode, we talked about Bebett's Feast, which took me seventeen years to watch, and it was worth the wait. So I don't know, like this movie treats food the same way that that movie does, with a level of reverence that it is transformative for the people involved in the meals, especially at the end of this movie, but I think also throughout it's just every meal is one more nail in this Motherfucker's coffin for all of these people, and it's just at some point there's no more room to put the nails in the coffin, so now we got to bury the guy. But you know when it takes a long time to get there. But I'm glad that the food is given that moment of like, yes, this guy is a boorish asshole, but we do get to see him eating good food.

It's just this guy, you know, ah pla saw it. Yeah, it's like fuck man, Like, I reviled by this human being, which is perfect. All the disgusting things he does in this movie. Uh, the one that actually turns my stomach is that the cook keeps making special dishes for Georgina, little desserts, and at one point she goes up to the lou she's actually going off to meet with Michael and the thief. Albert like lifts the dome and then pours like generous amounts of salt on it, and then he dumps into like vinegar on the table, and then he knocks his own glass of wine into the plate, and all the while doing this thing that like lots of British comedians would do, which is like look in the air like whoopsoo, whoop, what a bad boy am I?

And what ends up on that plate is so goddamned like worse than anything I'd seen in the movie or to come up. Yeah, I don't know, Like I like, Michael Gambon is tapping into something that feels so real that it's just I don't know, Like he gets lost in this performance and it's fully realized, fully realized. And again, like I'm not saying that every actor doesn't do this, but for whatever reason, again, because Michael Gambon is a fantastic actor. He just every scene that he's in, it's just it's a one tick on the dial worse than it was the scene before. And I mean that had to have gone into this performance because by the end of the movie, he is a babbling idiot even without the cannibalism going on.

He's completely lost it by the end of the movie because of everything that happened, because he's been emasculated, as he believes by someone else, but he's I mean again, he has been emasculated by his wife the way he perceives, and then she fully emasculates him at the end deservedly. So you know, Okay, you spoke at the top of this Chris about this character. Is Albert Speaker is a homosex? Is that because you know, at a certain point Georgina says, like, I don't he doesn't even like girls, and everything we hear sexually seems to be non sexual. It all just seems to be king, which I'm not kink shang yiming in any way.

And like the kink part of this character is not the despicable part of the character, except the way he goes about it, which is just seems to be more violence. Right. So, now I've heard it argued either way that like he's a heterosexual with this with this problem, or he's a closeted homosexual and like that's driving it, part of what drives his rage. But I would say that he's just non sexual. I just think he's a fucking horrible human being who's gonna hurt no matter what gender he's involved with.

Yeah, I don't know if I Yeah, I don't know if I would personally read his character as homosexual. But the the the kind of the the intense insertive predilection that is mentioned by Helen Mirren's character is yeah, Like and I don't know. It's it's a it's yeah, it's a kink. So I don't know, like, yeah, I didn't read it that way, like I don't know if anything like some of the other things I read was like this is Greenaway's take on Margaret Thatcher's Britain, and it's like, I mean, okay, sure, but I would say most of this movie still fucking rings true right now, which is you know, I mean again, it's the eighties again, folks. It's just not as fun as it was back and then back it wasn't it wasn't fun though, I know, I know that's it.

I was being ironic. People were more blind because they had the sort of American rhetoric of like, oh, Ronald Reacan, he's just he's a good old boy. What do you mean I think that girl's on film? D Duran song? Yeah you got Dan, you got Duran Durant.

Everything's all right and fine, don't you dare bring Duran Duran. I love that. I do. I'm not saying it's bad, but I mean I get it. Like I was made more making a joke of like, let's remember the eighties through the lens of fun songs that came out.

It's like, don't remember all the shitty stuff though, Ran Duran and Flock a Seagull and they always said, like forget about the boat video, like that wasn't thoughts like that. That was just part of the real good thing that they wanted up to be. So I understand what you're saying, Chris, But like take Deuran Duran off the tip. Oh I love Dranda. I'm not throwing shade of Randa in one of the best Bond songs, uh, I mean hungry like the Wolf New Moon on Monday, which is a criminally underrated song.

Love that song. Seven and the Baby, Yeah, baby, that's it. Who likes that album? That's a good album. Yeah, Actually no, I totally get it, Chris.

And that's a problem I think with nostalgian general though. I mean to think about like how I've seen like the whole fifties trip and not to get too sadrack hit, but like in the seventies, like you have happy days and then even in late sixties you got like shout it on, you got all this like that you talked about Forrest Gump earlier this year. I mean, that's a fucking part and parcel to that and the facts were fucking horrible. Like simpler time, I ass not if you're African American, not if you're gay, not if you're a woman, not if you're you know, any minority. Basically like come on, like humans, this is there another ted talk courtesy.

People are terrible. History is terrible because people are terrible, but people are also beautiful and amazing and are capable of great acts of love. And we see all of that in the Cook the Thief, you know, his wife and her lover and and I love that because we do see the full range because like there's that character Pop, you know, who's the little like singing dishwasher boy, and like that's a role like we've talked about that before the show where it's like when you have kids and movies that alone can be kind of dicey because if the kid's annoying, even when they're not supposed to be, they can kind of like put a damper on a movie. And Poppy really do like you don't want to see him mess with because he really is like this little anchel well like he's this like sweet id and it's just like and the that's the thing.

There's so much like so many of the side like characters, even like the nurses in the hospital later on, when Georgina goes to visit Pump. I mean, I don't think i've seen I feel like the last director I've seen that's like as good, like equally as good about both visual flair, but even having like a character that's on screen for like two seconds visually fit in with like a painter would do. Is Ken Russell like, because Ken Ken Russell's a master of that too, where it's like you could you could be like a person in the background, but they every single person is cast with such precision and has such a physical like visual appeal about them that it just kind of makes everything you're looking at even richer.

I've always thought of Greenaway as a restrained Ken Russell. Oh I love that. I love it, and God, I love Kid Russell cannot help himself to go further than anyone should, but the Greenaways a restraint like let's keep it artistic, and everybody I've been anarchic soul at heart. So my God, God bless Ken Russell. If I ever get, if I ever got had to get like tattoos like Cecil b demanded style.

I would be very tempted to get a Ken Russell one, but by Peter Greenaway God this is and I just you mentioned pop. I just want to bring that character up because you know, here here is a very definition of an angel in amongst all of this horrific nightmare, this dystopian kitchen. A side note, don't you think that this movie could be taking place in the same universe as Delicatessen? Oh a hundred percent, one hundred percent, Oh my god. Okay, but okay, So the angelic kid, he's singing a psalm.

This is a boy soprano. They're sort of they're they're leaning toward castrati here, but this is a boy soprano singing, and he's singing a song which is, you know, effectively a call for God to walk to take away one's sins, but it's it's set. The lyrics to the song themselves are like, you know, wash away my iniquity and anointment with high song, and it sounds remarkably like a recipe, which I only noticed for the first time watching it again, Like even even the call to God is somehow a preparation for a meal. I love that I know I seriously and maybe want to google what heysup. It's because I didn't seen that word.

I think probably since like when I, you know, was like forced to read they but totally like a recipee, I'll say, God, what a great that would be an at the Great Double Feature because Delicatessen, because and that's another film where like a lot of that cast would fit in I think physically just like facial feature wise. So well with this movie, Oh gosh, that's somebody have us do a film festival. Well, well, we'll program up the hell out of it. I think it's also funny, you know, you mentioned, you know, remembering you know, certain different times in the way that they're perceived this movie. The lavish nature of the eighties perfectly in the in the dining room, I mean it is I don't again like the set design is is beyond beyond.

It's just every you know, everybody talks, you know, Stanley Kubrick, he placed those cans of Calumet baking soda just right, and it made sure that it was indicative of the plight of the indigenous people. Like okay, room two three seven, don't get ahead of yourself now, Peter Greenaway I feel like this is that same thing though, where it's like every singular minute fucking detail is taken into account again, because like you mentioned Heather and Father Malone, this is every single shot is crafted in such a way that it is composed. Every shot is composed in this and that's not necessarily something another director is going to even worry about, because man, it's not easy. It's not easy to make a movie, but it's even harder to make a film where every single shot looks like a painting, every single shot has and ideas put into it.

And yeah, every lighting fixture is taken into account. The way the lights interact with the set is taken into account. Like it's I don't know, like it's the amount of time and effort put into this singular movie. It's exhausting to comprehend. And that's indicative of all of his film you know, you mentioned Kubrick, and I think about Kubrick a lot when I think about Peter Greenaway, and I think Kubrick was obviously much more interested in narrative when it came to cinema and more traditional, even as beautiful and spectacular and genius as Kubrick's movies are, they still sort of maintain the basic react structure that you're going to get from any drama.

Ever, whereas Greenaway was less interested in that narrative, even though there's a very strong, if easy narrative going on here, he's more interested in the way he's telling it, which is just as as you said, Chris measured as Kubrick is as thoughtful, like everything you can tell is placed there on purpose. But he's also willing to throw caution to the wind, Like if I were to recommend any other Peter Greenaway movie after this, I would recommend this first to anybody. It's his most accessible film, and I think it's his best film. But the one that actually tugs at my heart is a film called Drowning by Numbers. It's the film he did directly before this, which is effectively a story of three generations of women who are sick of their husbands and are going to dispose of them by drowning each of them.

But it also is this weird like puzzle where he's hidden the numbers one to one hundred in every scene and dares you to find them, like he's interested in doing that as well. He's interested in, you know, showing you the artifice behind what's going on. So he's much more deconstructionist than Kubrick when it comes to the art of cinema. But to me at least as important, if not maybe more than Kruebrick. Greenaway writes his own stuff by himself, right, like everything he's worked on.

Yeah, I mean it's always inspired by something like Prospero's books. Is obviously the Tempest, and you know he says that this is based on the old Tizzipity. She's a horror play, but like only vaguely. I'll say, yes, you know what I mean. You know where I'm going with that line of talking in terms of what your hot take was.

Yeah, No, their whole cloth, Peter Greenaways, whereas Kubrick, you know, adapted books and you know, did whatever, and he did right by them. I'm not look their apples and orange. It's not everything has to be a contest. They're like, you know, they're tro I love them both equally, but for me and for my postmodernist heart, and Peter Greenaway is nothing if not that uh uh. You know, he speaks to me more profoundly than Kubrick does.

The the sort of the alienation that people complain about about Kubrick's work, the sort of coldness that he comes to his characters with a detachedness, you know, that sort of they say plagues the Coen Brothers as well, is absent to me in Peter Greenaway. He cares desperately for all of his characters, and I do with him. Oh God, yeah, this this film. I wasn't especially like God, Like, I wasn't expected to like be moved to tears, but there I was, Like, I mean, Helen Mirren a lot, so much of that as her performance too, but just like her her depiction of just like of the full realization with Michael is gone, just that hint hard like that, And I thought, somebody that's like, I mean, as much as I mean art, I detest religion, but I mean if I was religious by I think it is like art and expression and that makes top pretensious, but fuck it.

You feel what you feel. And but you know, I'm not somebody who's like easily like we be with films, and that just I was just like, oh my god, that was so and it's maybe love this will be more because man, the emotions you go through this whole film and that it brings to the table and the way it's done is so beautiful and it is and there is a purity about it, like for as much artifice is going on, it's like the humanity of the story and the immunity of the performance is coupled with that is just banging. Yeah, I uh that scene to see that. I mean, Helen Mirren I think carries the second half of the movie. I think like Michael Gamban carries the first half of the movie because his performance really there's almost like again because it's so theatrical in nature, that moment where he says, and I'll kill him and I'll eat him, Like that's the moment where the curtain comes down.

Intermission time, folks, and we come back to the story for the second half of the story, you know what I mean, Like there's there's that The way he's even lit in that scene is very theatrical. And then it's again you could imagine curtains come down. Here's the intermission. We come back for the second half of the play. But the second half is I feel like so much Helen Mirren's movie because of her performance and everything that she has to do to get her character to the moment at the end of the movie where she makes the decision that she does.

We have to see that with her performance, and the first half of the movie has been so much of her performance just do it again. It's way harder what she's doing the first half of the movie, which is, like we've mentioned, to performance in silence, with glances and looks, more physicality than necessarily delivered lines. But yeah, I mean, well, you know what, in that half, You're right, I think I don't think it's actually harder in that first half because I think Georgina, no matter what's going on, is having the best time she's ever had in her entire life. The brutality that we see is normal for her, right, So I don't, you know, I'm not saying that Georgina is happy and in those scenes, but she is, you know, and I think I think some of that liveliness of her performance comes through a lot of it, actually does.

I think that the performance at the end is much more difficult, specifically the scene and the scene after your you mentioned Heather, like after she finds Michael's body, it's it's the next more she she you know, she confides in him all the horrible things that Albert had done to her in the past. And this is a confession that I don't think she was ever going to give him in the way that he said like early on that a character talking like you know, would become boring, and he didn't want to be back to her, like I don't think she wanted to scare him away with like how scarred she had been as a person. So it's extra heartbreaking that she's giving it to his corpse. And it's that scene alone is I don't know, I just I can't say she's working harder in the first half of the movie than she's working during this scene.

It's the whole movie to me. The scene afterwards between her and the chef, the cook, where she's imploring him to cook the body, that's what everyone takes away from that, But like you know that that scene is more about her trying to elicit acknowledgement that somebody saw the love like that it will live on beyond her own recollection of it, which is important to her. And that those two scenes, to me are are beyond anything she does in any of the rest of the movie. Those two scenes might be better than anything she's done in the rest of her career in my humble opinion, and it has one of the best jokes in the entire movie, I feel where she goes no, no, no, no, no, no, no thought eat him. I found that to be such a funny fucking line in this in this really emotionally intense scene, because she's like, oh, okay, you you thought I was good?

No no, no, no no, We're gonna feed it to this asshole. He's gonna finally get and then he's like okay, he's just like there's no other words need to be said, like and that and that is genuinely I laughed out loud. I was like, wow, movie, you did it like it does that thing where it threads the needle so perfect, where there's the scene of intense emotion and then it is put a button on with a genuinely funny like moment between two characters, a genuinely funny moment of misunderstanding about the consumption of a huge who's truly eating this man's corpse? We don't. That's the problem here.

It's who's eating it that it's the problem. Ultimate that was on the big Oh. I got the fact that he didn't even want to take her money. It's like it's like, oh, it's it's like all the only thing Missy was in thing? Oh are you kidding?

I'll do that shit for free. You can't fucking save to favor to humanity at this point, for fuck's sake, job, you know what in his skill in the culinary arts, Uh, do you think the body was actually quite delicious? It must have been, right, I mean, he would have prepared it to be. You know what they say about long pig, that human meat is the tastiest of me, Like Alan Howard makes a good suckling pig stand in right now, I'm grossed out, Crispy said, I mean my interpretation was like like a duck ella range at the end, like a crispy skin with like with like lacquered on marmalade like ros. But at the same time it looks pretty good.

Not gonna lie like again, that was the intention. So they say the most tastiest kind of pork is human pork. That's right, Yeah, nobody worry. Okay, for the record, for Thanksgiving, I literally have a to furky you get roast in my fridge. I'm a vegetarian cause I think the last time I waxed rhapsodic about long pig on a podcast as a joke, I got, I gotta follow on.

It's for me some kind of like cannibal theme pots, but I don't know if it was about cannibal bear fits are cannibalists the idea of I just want to say, fine print, I don't so don't eat people, you know, it is fun to talk about. And the fact that like they call humans long pigs, I think is it delights me. I like the shoes. I like the way cannibalism is used in this movie as it is like the fine for all of the things that have happened. That is the one bridge, that is the crop, that is the literal crossing of this movie's rubicon is the consumption of human flesh.

The And what's what's also ironic is there's actually two acts of cannibalism in this movie one and they're both forced because Pup is forced to eat his own belly button, which is just like, somehow the worst thing I didn't think anybody had ever done in the movie, but now I've seen it, and like, but that's what it's forced cannibalism forced to not only yeah, force cannibalism that he's forced to eat where he once ate from. Right, it's effectively like eat his own mouth. Yeah, yeah, I hadn't even thought about that way. Shit. And you know, so cannibalism at the end is actually see, any actual perfect movie has an inevitability to it, and this movie, which has been treating everything as either consumed or consumable or one or the other or eventually going to be there like it's all meat and it's all going to decompose, it's all going to be consumed, and then shout out, we're all going to make our way left and right down through this the kitchen into the dining room and then back out again to the parking lot here.

So yeah, of course the body is going to be treated as as everything else has in the movie, something to be taken pleasure in the eating of even if it's the working on Earth and a perfect revenge. And it's the first and only dead body in the entire movie. And that's the way the first and only dead body in the entire movie about food is treated. It makes perfect sense. Like you said, there's an inevitability to it.

And again, like I mentioned, with the idea that there could be an intermission when he says like and I'll eat him Like you said it, you take the intermission. We know as the audience that it's coming hell or eye water. There's gonna be human meat in this man's mouth at the end of it. And you know what, He kills Michael by making him eat pages of a book, making him eat those words. And then at the end Albert himself has to eat his own I'm gonna kill him and I'm gonna eat him.

Yes, you are who did before we wrap up? I would be I will never figure myself if I didn't mention a side note or a side character in this case. So Ian Derry is in this movie, and for my listening, you're like, whre's Ian Derry? Heather come with me children real quick on a musical journey starting going all the way back to pub rock in the seventies and then punk rock, post put New Way what everybody call it. I Derry is an awesome musician, and he also was in a number of acting roles made he's the nineties.

He's in the Rucker Hower film Split Second, which is a very full science fiction film. Ian Durry plays I believe it's a fletch. He's like an associate, and he looks like a fucking werewolf pamp in this movie. He's got long, kind of greasy black curly hair, this amazing facial hair, this shiny red coat and he and he has the great line Fitch. He's mister Fitch.

So they're like, I can't I can't take no more jumpy worse. I'm not even gonna say it was the line of gotta have a nice, nice girls in here for my daughter, none of that smut or filed or whatever he says. It's like, man, I think we might have found a guy who's second to Albert speaking. Oh no, no, he's he's way better than Albert. But but but I did Albert did correct me up though, where he's yeah, just bitch is complaining about I don't want it noisy, and he's like, or was it like you want mute nuns or something like it can like something like because he wanted a classy But yeah, Durry's not in the film for very long.

But I I thrive and live for this ship to quote Vin Diesel from Triple X, and I live for Ian Derry as everybody should hit me with the rhythmstick. Indeed, so that's also in Judge Dread. I wish you guys did it before Barting, Yeah, he just judged. Like the Stallone Judge read with demolition Man, I'm like, I'm like, what are because I'm like over she I know, well, I'm like, which one has taco bell? And oh it's demolition Man.

That Demolition Man is clever. That that one was written by Waters. I take back what I said, then I written by the same people. No, Judge Reread is not a good movie. Pred Dread is a terrible movie with a really good performance by Armanda Sante.

I'll stand by. Oh I loved Arda. That was the one time we got to interview Armanda Santi was for Judge Dread. Holy shit, sure I was twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen. Yeah, I love that movie.

Armanda Santi going oohraw is really us the best line reading of that word ever, like if there were like a dictionary of film words, and like the best way it's ever been delivered, the word law being delivered by Armanda Santi opposite Sylvester Stallone having to one up Stallone really like he went over the top and that in that moment really so oh, he's perfect. He'll never give a better performance than that. It's perfect. It's way better than the movie. You wish you could pull him out and put it, put it into a better judge dreadwaving.

Yeah, but demolition Man is is is the better too, And yeah, the sindemaniac to catch a maniac also a great line delivered by Sylvester Stallone. But yeah, I do like the the I do like the character of Fitch because he's he's again like I genuinely feel like if the if the movie had then gone and followed him, we would see like, this guy is probably as big a deplorable piece of shit as Speaker in just a different way, because this guy has his like family at dinner with you, and it's like, whoa, this guy's weird in a different direction, Like he's he's fucked up in a different angle than Speaker is, because this guy is like instead of just being like against speaking with his own predilections, like, this guy has his own things.

It's like what would that be? But again, testament to Peter Greenaway for like making a movie where almost every single character you want to spend more time with them other than that one character that Michael Gamblin plays because we spend more time with them than almost anybody else, So I yeah, I don't know. It's almost like maybe Fitch. It's like going back to Henry. It's like the Henry Outis factor, because i Otis was always what bothered me the most of the two, like a Tom Tole's like the range on that guy.

I love him so much. He is so fucking creepy like that, he, like Otis, makes Henry look kind of better even though Henry's fucked up and he's aplurtment. And it's almost like maybe if Fitch is like that, like Fitch is like Fitches, I mean yeah, if he's in a style shit of Speaker of Albert, then yeah, you it's a piece of shit. But it's like maybe comparatively, he just seems like, well, he probably doesn't beat his wife, and that's like the standards we have very low, bare minimum. You're just be beating your wife.

What do you want a cookie? Yeah? I'm really glad we uh we we we watched this movie though. I'm glad I finally saw this movie because yeah, this this movie will probably live rent free in my head. For quite some time.

I've already watched it three times and again, Like I was talking with my folks about it because they're here. My dad was like, is that the movie you were talking about? Because it was like paused on my computer. It was Alan Howard and Ellen Marin We're in the throes of love making on my computer. My dad like walked around's like, well, is that thing you were talking about?

I was like, sure, is this movie where there's a lot of a lot of a lot going on all the time. But you know what, I miss movies like this, But you know what that that's not really a thing because like there there aren't many, but when you find them, you kind of want to hold on to them like anything else, like what this movie talks about. When you find these things in life that are worth getting excited about, or worth investing time in, or worth sharing with other people and you know, sharing personal stories or anecdotes or opinions, you want to talk about it, and you want to share it, and you want to engage and and and make it something that you cannot only you know, talk about yourself, but hopefully have other people enjoy and like as well.

And this is a movie that. Yeah, it's like, it's hard for me to suggest it to people because I don't know who would like it. But if you watched it and you enjoyed it, we're probably gonna get along in terms of our like thoughts and beliefs on cinema, probably or at least our ability to enjoy this kind of cinema, which is again, it's not for everybody, but for the people that it's for, like I'm here, we're here, this is this is this is high level filmmaking done really well. Amen. Yeah, I'm gonna kick it to you, father Balone.

Final thoughts, it's that there are many perfect movies, but this is definitely one of them. I think it's it's an important film. I think it's a I don't know. It's hard to say anything after saying it's a perfect film. Honestly, I think it's definitely worth checking out.

I don't know how available it is, as you mentioned earlier, Heather, like, I don't know, like, but it's definitely one you should see. If you're going to see anything in Peter Greenaway's see this one, but then check out everything else because it's it's never not fascinating, but this to me is the sort of pinnacle of his achievement. I loved it in nineteen ninety I thought it spoke to me then, and it spoke to the times. Then upon revisiting it seventeen years later, same thing, and now again in twenty twenty three, same thing. It is absolutely relatable and and it speaks to me on a level of appreciation of cinema that made me appreciate cinema.

If that makes sense. Yeah, what about you, Heather, this when people talk about cinema, this is a film that should come to your mind. This is this is cinema in all of its high, wiggling thry, the pulsating, lush potential. I cannot recommend it enough. And uh and yeah, I mean seek this out, as father Milan said, seek out Peter Greenaway.

And especially because I think a lot of times people it's so easy to get locked into like what is the current thing? And if you're like a little bored with things, don't don't let cynicism overtake you, like, seek stuff out and seek this out. And it's it's not it's it doesn't seem to be in print in the US right now, but it is attainable. And uh so, definitely seek it out and and yeah, enjoy. Yeah, I'm gonna obviously echo what y'all said.

I mean, the fact that it's the fact that it's hard to find is an unfortunate reality of the times that we live in, given that you would think everything is available, But you know, I mean, you can find it on the internet. Folks. You're resilient. If anything, if you listen to this show, you're not going to be stopped by it not being on streaming. I would fucking hope, and you shouldn't, because this is a movie worth finding.

Chris, I gotta jump in because here's one tidbit that I forgot to mention. Evidently, in twenty fourteen in Baltimore, there was a stage production of The Cook, the Thief, His Wife and Her Lover, in which it was a dinner theater. It was four courses served while they performed this around you. I can only imagine the review I read was light on details but overall that this was really good. So I would like to see this done a lot, and I would like to go a lot.

Is this like Michael Gambon's role, is the role that any actor would want to play? Like I don't know how to put this, but if I were an actor and I wanted to be in a movie and I read this script, there's only one role I want to play, and it's Michael Gambon's character. Period. It's everything you would ever want from a role. It's the most It's one of the dynamic roles I've ever seen.

And if you could see that in person, yeah, holy shit, what would that be like? Like nutzoid. So each of the characters when Peter Greenerway wrote the script are named for the actors he wanted. So the cook Richard is the actor he wanted playing that role. Obviously he did not get either the wife who is named Georgie, and I forget the actress Jorjaniahal who is in Can Wrestles the Devils.

There you go. And but the character of Michael the Lover was named for the actor he wanted, who's also in the movie, just not in that role. Michael Gambon. I cannot Yeah, I saw that, and I cannot imagine Michael. Michael Gambit is so definitive Albert and now I'd be like finding out that Belle Legosi was gonna play Renfield.

It's not that he couldn't do it, it's just he's at it. I think I think he would shine in the Michael role as well. It's just what would you put a against him? Who would be threat to him? Yeah, and boy what intensity?

Well, you'd have a different kind of intensity, I'm assuming. I don't know. Like again, like to both of your points, Like, the idea of anybody else playing this character is kind of wild to me because it is such micro gambon and that's it, Like I couldn't. Yeah, I don't know, like I think for me, Yeah, you've both mentioned it. Like, this is a perfect movie.

This is a movie that deserves to be watched outside of a film class, but definitely in a film class, regardless of what they're teaching composition, screenwriting, direction, whatever it is. This movie I think checks every single fucking box possible on top of being a film that cares about the composition of the shot. Like, there are plenty of great movies that are great for plenty of other reasons, and composition of shot isn't one of but this movie is is so intense in its focus on everything. Everything feels so again well manicured, well maintained, that it's Kubrickian in its level of focus. But I think to Father Malone's previous point, one might say Greenway and is a better is just as apt a fucking way of looking at it, because there's so much in this movie going on that we could have talked about didn't And maybe to do another episode in the future about another Peter Greenway movie.

This movie will probably come up again, if not doing an entire month of Peter green But I'm glad I watched it. This is again another movie that like it's gonna live rent free in my head for quite some time, just like Babbett's face in terms of the themes, in terms of the quality of the filmmaking, and yeah, I mean one of the great film villains like the green again, Like that's the thing. Where are these lists that are being made? Go watch this fucking movie and then put him anywhere other than in the top three, Like Darth Vader's a great film villain? Is he though?

Like compared to this? Like is anything as good as this? Like I know it's hard for like I know I'm being hyperbolic, but maybe not. I don't know, Like I don't know, Like because he said, well, watch more movie if they're all available. Personally, I expand your vocabulary, expand the vernacular.

Have feature intellectual curiosity for the love of all that is good and unholy. Fucking feed your mind, Alice. Yeah. So on that note, let's take a break. We will play a preview for the final Culture Cast of November.

A top chef at the height of his career is running out of inspiration. A dreamer who can't get a job has more ideas than he can cause heat. In a cutthroat business, competitors will eat your lunch you need well the cone call Alexander could she didn't moves their ideas they don't called as to be glass on the poli ice g shek. But the best flavors and quiem are always unexpected. You official you together.

They have a perfect palate. Did you tomatolia or did I come a sharp tongue? An exanthing? Bullets by your face and cool and the taste for romance to prefer covering the plini is myth that was usually critical cargo, becusion, moleculear Anachmann, because I'm gonnaive the chef that's right. On the Final Culture Cast November, we're talking about the Chef from twenty twelve, which he is probably just a movie, you know what I mean, just a movie that came out.

I believe it has Jean Reneau in it. Who you know one of the best parts of Godzilla in nineteen ninety nine. If any gudzill in nineteen ninety nine aficionados are out there, hen Hankh's Aria I thought also good in that movie, one of Hank's Area's few starring roles at the time, in terms of being on screen as opposed to do in the voice Formosa is like and on that episode, I'm gonna be joined by none of those people, but Jess fired. So until then, Heather, where can people find you and the things that you were? Well, you can find me over at my website Mondoheather dot com, where I recently wrote an article about the nineteen eighty seven shot on video horror film Splatter Farm, made by the Polonias and Todd Michael Smith.

And that was a lot of fun and I think definitely hopefully encourages people. I think sometimes people get very locked into like film being on film, but there's like there are some stuff shot on video. I used to be a snucked, but I love this film. Of course. You can find me at my link tree, where you see links to other podcasts I'm on.

I am very blessed to get to co host the Noise Junkies music podcast, the only music podcast you should listen to. That's not true, listen to other ones. But you know who's going to take care of you, and that's gonna be myself, the Great Father Malone, and our brother in arms HP. So yeah, linktree dot com for its slash Mondo Heather, what about you foughtdom Alone? You can find all my stuff at fathermlone dot com.

If you want to hear any of the podcasts that I work on, like Noise Junkies or Dark Destinations to half hour radio drama write and produce that I'm working on right now. That'll be probably the first of the year, I think probably, But anyway, I don't want to promise in anything. But you can also check out a podcast I do with Chris and Mike White from the Projection Booth called Midnight Viewing, the Horror anthology podcast. We are currently midway or two thirds of the way through Rod Serling's Night Gallery and we'll be tackling Tales from the Dark Side after that. So that's that's what I'm working on.

That's where you can find me. The easiest of pivots, one might say, just keep on going down horror anthology, laid Baby, I love it. Yeah. No, as father Malone just mentioned, weirdywaymedia dot com is all the things I work on audio wise, and you can't find my stuff anywhere else. I won't.

I'm on X or Twitter. Not on X. I wish I was, but I'm on Twitter. Every time everybody says like I'm on X, it's like, but you're not, and you'd be a lot more fun if you were. At the moment.

No, I'm on Twitter, whatever the fuck. But if you want to follow me there cool but culturecast dot com, patreon dot com, slash culture cast places you can go to help the show financially, engage and like great and review the show wherever you get it, which is more than like iTunes. So yeah, Heather, father Malone, thank you both so much for joining me. This has been a lot of fun. I'm glad that we were able to talk about this movie together and enjoy it having never seen it.

But also, you know, talk about a movie that yeah, deserves to be part of a bigger conversation, more conversations and maybe Peter Greenaway months coming soon in the near future, who knows. Hell yeah yeah, and as always, we'll catch you on the next episode. Listener and distructions