Thunderbolts* (2025) — "There is something wrong with me. An emptiness."

Weird. We so the Projection Booth Culture cast midnight viewing all that stuff. I'm your host, Mike Boy join me once again, is mister Chris Tashue. That asterisk better means something by the end of this movie. Also joining us, says Father Malone that asterisk is meaningless much like the rest of this movie.

Oh No. On this special episode, we are diving into the electrifying world of Thunderbolts Asterisk. And there are black guys, and they are worse guys. They're stronger than all of the Avengers rolled into one. You are unleash, The Avengers are not coming.

Who will cheap people? We are the Thundercles, Marble Studios, Thunderbolts Gift it gets. Now. We are going to dissect Marvel's unconventional team of anti heroes and misfits, exploring how this film crashes into the MCU lineup. We are going to get into the film's themes of redemption, betrayal, and blurred moral lines.

Yes, we're going to be spoiling things, but hoping to keep that for a little later in the discussion. I mean, I really couldn't believe that Bucky dies. That's really terrible. God oh sorry, oh shit, Oh man, I'm right out of the gate. Oh ah fuck.

Yeah. It's almost like the people who made this movie spoiled parts of the movie ahead of time. Almost almost. Yeah. Yeah, Well I don't know.

I haven't been paying attention, so that's kind of a nice Olly Chris, Lucky Chris, What did you think of Marvel's Thunderbolts as risk sco If you could see me right now, which you can't everyone who's listening, but Father Malone and Mike. I currently have my hair and corn rows because I was on vacation for a week on a Disney cruise. If you want a Disney cruise around the time of movie premieres, you might get to see it on the boat. That is, in fact what happened last week. I got to see The Thunderbolts essentially ten forty five on Thursday night, the night before it but the night before it came out, so it came out Friday Friday at twelve.

I saw it essentially when it premiered. There was a little even snippet. David Harbor was like, Hey, everybody on the Disney cruise Land, this is the Thunderbolts premiere. It's like all right. Wow.

Like, I'll tell you the other thing I watched on the cruise line was Snow White twenty twenty five, which, my god, what a fat baffling, what a movie bowl piece of shit like? And I say that as someone who. Yeah, I was just saying that movie is fucking baffling. That movie is an affront to a lot of things. Remaking Snow White, sure, but wow, lots of choices being made.

Speaking of choices being I got to see Thunderbolts, like I said same, essentially within twenty four hours of you guys getting to see it. I enjoyed it. I think it has its issues, and boy, there are some things where I'm like, and we're and I'm just I sent my clock to it, and I'm waiting and I'm waiting and I'm waiting and here's the thing. And some of it it was like, all right, cool, we knew it was coming. Some of it was like we didn't know what was coming.

I guess. So Marvel did a better job, in my opinion, promoting this movie than they did with say, the movie that had Red Hulk in it for nine minutes, When they promoted it for like one hundred percent of the promotional material was The Red Hulk of it All. I think it's fun. I love Florence Pugh, so I'm probably a little biased in terms of my ability to enjoy this movie. I was already at a little bit of a I don't know, you've got me in the door with Florence Pugh, You've got me in the door with David Harbor.

So I already enjoy that most everything that they're in. So this was gonna be something I was going to watch anyways. But I was actually somewhat excited to watch this movie. All of that to say, it has its problems. I think it's better than Captain America Brave New World.

Maybe I'm and that might be controversial. Father Malone and I may have some back and forth. I don't know, because we didn't really get to talk to Father Malone about Captain America. And there will be only one more opportunity this year for us to talk about Marvel thing with the upcoming Fantastic Four movie. So this, I feel like, is a pretty big movie this year, and I think that if you're going into it hoping it's a big movie and it lives up to what it kind of is advertising itself as as a Marvel suicide squad.

I think for the most part it checks the boxes. It has its problems, but I enjoyed it, I think a little bit more than I've enjoyed the last Captain America movie. And I've rewatched dead Pool Wolverine several times since I saw it last year, and that movie does not hold up really well. The next couple it's a cameo. It's like a couple scenes is what dead Pol Wolverine is for me.

It's like four scenes and pretty much everything else is like just kind of whatever we've seen this before, or the addition of Wolverine made it a lesser movie. So in terms of my enjoyment, I enjoyed this more than the last couple of Marvel things I've seen. But I'm really curious what y'all thought, because y'all saw it in like theaters, I'm assuming with lots of I mean, I saw it with lots of people. People were reacting to this movie in a way that I hadn't seen in theaters in a while. People were clapping and really excited, and I appreciated that more than anything else, that people were like engaging with the movie which felt, I don't know, refreshing in a way, like I actually felt like I could sit and watch this movie and people were sitting around me, laughing and enjoying it and having a good time.

So maybe the bar was relatively low. I feel like that's part of it. So, Father Malone, I am so so curious because even looking down a lot, looking down a whole lot, what did you think of Thunderbolt's asterisk? Wasted opportunity? That's what I would say.

Uh, this is the one I was really really looking forward to from the MCU, from everything that got announced in the previous phase, which is this is is this phase four? Phase five? Is this official? Does anyone know? I think it's Phase five?

Five means Phase five. This is the first film in Phase five, right, this was technically supposed to come out before Captain America Brave New Worlds. Well, this is the fuckeroo. This is the fucko of Spider Man and Doctor Strange all over again. Is really what this is?

So this was supposed to be part of Phase four. As part of Phase four, I would say this is great. This is the best part of Phase four as a step towards Phase five. I don't know what the fuck did derin, Like they've already proven that you can have a disparate band of misfits and turn them into a team, and that we're gonna love with Guardians of the Galaxy. I think Suicide Squad, both Suicide Squad movies over at DC were in reaction to Guardians of the Galaxy, and I think they kind of tried to replicate that tone, the sort of goofy ultimately ultimately tone which Thunderbolts was in its conception was a group of fucking villains.

Barren Zimo formed the fucking Thunderbolts initially like this is their chance to do the team up of the fucking serious people in the MCU, and for the most part they act very seriously once they sort of engage in combat, but then the rest of it, it's all sort of jokesterism that and none of the jokes land. And I don't want them to be like cracking wise with each other. Like John Walker is a piece of shit of a human being. That's kind of what I like about it, because ultimately he wants us to do the right thing, Like these are all terrible people yearning to be better, and what we get is sort of a you know, a glad handing, slapping on the back thing for like a good half of this movie. This movie doesn't begin until like one hour in.

Yeah, if this, if this had been like a Marvel television special where at the end we get to we get to meet the new Avengers. Well, okay, that makes sense, but like as its own feature of film, it's so disjointed and weirdly paced, like, uh like. We just keep we get all of the characters sort of thrown in, but it's an exposition dump like and a very lazy exposition dump as well. The most like, it's the standoff of standoffs. It's like, I'm who are you?

Who are you? It was like Spider manning one another Mike, same question to you. Thoughts on Thunderbolt asterisk. Well, I am unfamiliar with this as a comics title very much, so I have nothing to compare it again, And I'm not familiar with who the villain is of this film. Well, I guess there are two villains.

Really. I am familiar with the Julie Ladrie Julia Louis Dreyfus character who keeps popping up in these Marvel shows and then at the end of Black Widow. Is it weird that I keep forgivving that Black Widow is dead because I keep watching the Black Widow movie, and I mean I always, you know, don't think that people are dead in permanence in Marvel universes. So I'm just like, oh, what, wait, what? Why is she said?

Oh? Here? Sisters said, Oh, okay, yeah, I guess that is a thing. I'm hoping they never bring her back because the permanence of her death seems to actually echo in the MCU. We all know Captain America Steve Rodgers is on his way back at so is he?

Is he? Oh? One thousand? You mean like that old guy, the ninety year old guy. Nope, I don't know.

Joe Biden. Joe Biden, Yes, heard Joe Biden. He just look like you currently on the moon. You'll wait, you wait and see father Milone. Your Mike levels went down again.

That guy is currently on the moon. A little bit more. How about that? A little just a little down from that, how about that? That's good?

Okay, better? Yeah, I hope, I hope to god they don't bring him back. But okay, I guess you know what at this point. I mean, I mean, look, we do get Robert Downey Junior next year, and that's the spoiler. That's literally something that everybody knows.

Like we've known that now for what almost a year. It's been almost a year since they announced that Robert Downey Junior was stepping in his doctor doom. So this is not like, yeah, I mean, I guess I wouldn't be surprised if Captain America was still kicking it. I'm gonna switch networks real quick, because well, you'll be right, and. This episode is already this is we're having a good time.

Oh yeah, there we go. Okay, I'm on a network. Yeah. So I was. Unfamiliar with the Thunderbolts concept.

I honestly thought that the Thunderbolts were a reference to General Thunderbolt Ross, so that it has nothing to do with him and lots to do with Jolena's elementary school maybe even preschool soccer team. I'm like, oh, okay. That is actually a change from the comics the Oh okay, because they are named for General Thatteus Thunderbolt Ross. Yes is what it is. Yes, as Father Malonda and I are sitting here smirking, it's because you were right in that assessment.

That is where that comes from in the comics. Yeah, all right, all right, is he like their team or something? He is, yes, exactly, and Red Hope is part of the oh the team on occasion, he's like both the Dollar and the superpowered chief of It, I guess. And mind you, this is like nineteen ninety seven Marvel. This isn't like nineteen seventy five.

Like this is right, we're talking at the point where Marvel is Oh God, correct me if I'm wrong here on this, Like Marvel is at the point where they've almost gone bankrupt. They filed for chapter eleven I think in nineteen ninety six. Okay, that's what I thought. Like this is like this is like the Hail Mary time, Like this is Marvel swinging hard. Yeah.

So, And I mean I remember starting to read comic books in the early two thousands. That's when I started reading stuff like Ultimate Spider Man and Ultimate stuff that I honestly think the Ultimate stuff is the best stuff that Marvel's ever done. And uh, you know, I know, Father Malone, It's okay, I'm showing my age on this one. Some of it is and some of it is absolute to me, absolutely. Absolutely, Yeah, like Ultimate Spider Man, Ultimate Spider Man.

That's ultimate good. It's Ultimate Spider Man. I would disagree Ultimate Fantastic four, but that's only because that's only because we get the Maker out of all that. And the Maker is the best villain in any comic books. The Maker is just evil.

Read Richard's which is like horrifying. What if the world's smartest man was just like, fuck this shit. I'm a big time villain. And his head is so big that it's a cone. It's like cone shaped because his brain has like large, so much from the knowledge you get.

So that's the only other thing. We're getting here. Soon, aren't we like after doomsday? Aren't they going to war World? Oh?

I hope. So, I mean they're gonna do it. That's they're gonna do Maker that quickly. Wow. Well, I mean they've been talking about Secret Wars for over a decade.

I mean they were just like, okay, well pretty soon it's going to be the Reign of Kang or whatever they're calling it, and then you see the King Dynasty and then Secret Wars. Baby, here we come, get w for the Beyonder. Okay, So I think I think from I think, are we on the same page that maybe this movie is father alone. Are you in the camp that this is not worth seeing? No, I think it is worth seeing.

I think it's a movie that has interesting disparate. Part Okay, and Mike, are you in the same. I'm kind of still in my intro. I don't know. Okay, sorry, I go for it now, I'll go for I think we're just too excited to talk about it.

And that's what happens when we talk to these guy to Marvel movies. I liked it. There we go hey, oh yeah. And people people in my theater were not as in game. I had a couple of talkers and I had quite a few cell phones going on, to the point where I almost wadded up my popcorn bag and threw it at a guy a few rows in front of us because he just kept looking at his fucking phone.

At least it was in dark mode, so that was better than the asshole next to me who was flashing his phone as he's like looking at it and it's just like a flashlight in my eyes. So that was annoying. And I wonder why movie theaters are going under. Ryeah exactly why before I'll say it again, why did the movie theater experience not change after COVID Fuck you? That's why the twelve of us that were in that theater and it was the only screaming today that was not in like I don't know sense around four D blah blah.

Blah, like their money somehow, Mike, Oh, yeah. We have like this new thing. I don't know if you guys are familiar with. At least mjr. Is doing this thing that is almost like cinerama.

They are doing like three screen type of thing. And I'm like, I don't know how you're doing this. I didn't walk into that theater to take a look, but eventually I'll probably see something in that. But yeah, I thought that this was It was an interesting way of going about the storytelling, the whole idea of cutting between the three stories for quite a while, between the Yolena story, the Bucky story, and then why am I blanking on Julie Luis? Yes, yes, the Fontaine and I'm dropping the duh just like fence from defense, that whole thing like which that her her character, I mean, swap her out with gian Carlo Esposito and you've got the boys all over again.

So yeah, it was very very odd. I mean, especially like her talking with Bob and stuff. And yeah, the Bob character was interesting. I mean pretty they pretty much just hand it to you what he is, who he is, what's happening. I mean from the very beginning when Yolena has her first mission that we see her on and I will tell you, I thought she said that she was going to Oscorp.

So I'm super excited. I was like, yeah, wow, we're fro the No Ox group Sorry no Ox Corp. Yes, may I speak to the Valentina? Sure? What a total fucking waste of Valentina as a character, considering we've they've had.

They've been nick furying her throughout, like all of the Phase three, Phase four stuff that has been sort of in the background, showing up in grabbing team members, catches, can villains at back. It's been so exciting watching it happen, Like the fact that this movie begins with a scene where none of them have ever worked together. They're all just sort of separate asset. She's gathered them all, making them all each other's own target, to get them all into one room so that she can incinerate them but it's at a facility where she doesn't actually know what's going on, and like, why does it make any sense? Why does Mook even just begin with them as a team doing a mission to go take out this guy Bob for her, it would have saved so much time and allowed so much more of this The other part of the story, the part that you're talking talking about, Mike, where we get backstory on each of our barracles through these flashbacks, mystical flashbacks.

But you know, Bob can the Sentry can bring you into this nether world. Oh he said the word, He said the word. It's spoilers time, baby, man. It's like, you know, it's like the Red Hulk in Harrison Ford. It really is, Like, Yeah, everything in this movie was spoiled.

Every fucking good scene in this movie was in the trailer. There were zero surprises. Olga cri lenko Oga Kurlenko not making it aft out of the first fifteen minutes is obvious. Hey, yeah, she wasn't in any other shot. Oh by the way, what the fuck, man, that's they're doing a task Master.

That's how they're just going to prove that this is the serious thing before they make jokes for the next fucking hour and a half. I'm so glad I didn't pay attention to any of the trailers because I knew nothing about Sentry. I was like, okay, yeah, here's this Bob guy. Of course he's going to be this Sentry character. We get the mention of Sentry at the Ox Corp stuff, and then we get the you know, oh, here's all these character designs basically for him, and as soon as they hit that little box or whatever, I was like, oh, okay, here comes like the Adam Warlock of the group.

All right, this makes total sense. And then when he showed up and he was like, well, I don't really remember anything, I was like, okay, so he's like Legion then or something, So all right, he's going to be very powerful. At some point he's going to reveal his powers. He's going to be huge. All right, all right, I got this, and I mean, yeah, they just telegraphed everything, so, not even having seen the trailers, I was like, okay, But I was surprised that Taskmaster died.

I was very surprised by that, though, thank you Io nine for saying we can't believe how cheap it was that this character didn't make it out of the first act, and I was like, okay, so one of them's going to die. And when she didn't come out of that room that was Incinerator, I was like, okay, well she I guess she's really dead like I expected her to come crawling out of the rubble. No, she got shot in the head. She got head shot, ranged by Wyatt Russell of all people. Hey, I mean I've seen Wolvering.

He takes a lot of those. That's true. Yeah, it's a bummer, like it's it doesn't work. It's one of the things in this movie that was a real uh problem. And look, they also revealed it when they revealed the cast of Doomsday because Olga Kirilenko was also not announced for that movie.

Thanks guys. I mean that's yeah, that's true. But to be fair, that's also because the assumption is he's going to be in the second move. Yeah, doctor Strange is also I think it right, right, Peter Parker, right exactly. And it's a fucking event.

Uh. Here's the thing about Stint three uh uh And and let me say something nice about the movie before I sort of dump on it, because that's probably would have gonna end up during the entire time. The opening scene where we get Elena somewhat suicidal, uh like leaping off the building. And then in that first mission they tackle a hallway fight theme, which we've seen dozens of ever since Old Boy. Everyone's gonna have a whole life like it, but here they do it.

They give us the point of view so straight down, but it's completely licked from only one side to Bill Awet in shadow fighting beneath it actually went her way through them and it's great shot and it resonated with me while I was watching it because of the fucking trailerst because I know that century is going to be floating in the air and turning people into like prrosiumai like shadows on the girth. Oh wow, they were ruined all that Yeah, dude, like sucks. I mean, bro, I was shocked when that first person turned to that shadow. I was like, I think what was in in the helicopter? And then like when the little when uh the I always want to call on Crimson Dynamo, but the David Harbor Protector Red Guardian, when Red Guardian saves that little girl and then she gets like at first I thought it was dust, you know, kind of a Thanos thing.

But I was like, oh no, this is even more horrific like the shadows, and yeah, I totally thought about Horoshiamat. I was like, oh fuck, this is really bad. So I had no idea that was going to be happening. That effect is fucking fantastic. Yeah, I wish it hadn't been ruined for me.

I mean, it doesn't matter, like, eventually you're gonna see the movie, You're gonna see it again, and if it works, it works. But and it does, like it's one of the best effects I've seen in a Marvel film in a while, and sent friend up being one of the best. Dylan Long genuinely a genuine threat that doesn't involve you know, it is the world ending, but somehow not I don't know, it felt more personal. I guess that's because they introduced him so early. But again, like I don't know, the paintings are so fucking clumsy throughout that you know, by the end, because we spend the most time learning about Bob slash Stunford at the end, do you even know anything more than what kind of came in?

Was that a guy who wakes up with Like we find out that he wanted to be powerful. A subjected himself to the thing and now he yeah, okay, yeah, well and his dad beat him and he did mes. So he's the first and he's the first meth powered superhero, which is I mean, Marvel's got tackled for it, which is nice, and it thunderbolts. Yeah, and are terrible people ron with the terrible Marvel. Just commit This is the problem.

This is why I'm glad they fucking canceled Blade. Don't do Blade unless you're gonna make it a horror. Don't do the dark skide of Marvel unless you're going to commit to that. Because what we're gonna get into the hybrid thing where we built we're kind of half giving us but they know that we that has worked in the pan, and half giving us an attempt at something, but it just ends up feeling like like nothing. You're gonna have to get a new mixer very soon.

If that's what the problem is. Yeah, man, holy shit, Oh my god. Sorry, You're gonna have to like check it every couple of minutes, is what it feels like. All right, how about now you're good. Now, you're good?

Now all right, I'm just gonna have to tap it every once in a while. I'm sorry, it's okay. Hey, yeah we understand. Well, yeah, we know you're doing this on purpose, as if you even could any more than anyone of us could. Yeah, you know, it's it's hard to do things, uh this stupid on purpose sometimes, but Marvel figured out how to do it.

Because to your point, Father Malone, I really am and fucking tired of in these movies the things that happen not having any sort of stakes because everything has been walked back, and to the fact that thinking that Scarlett Johansson might come back is a possibility is I think very telling of where we are with the MCU, honestly in a lot of ways, because that's like one of the deaths in the MCU that again, in my mind, you can't walk that one bag. But yet it feels like with what we're about to get next year and the year after, it is going to be one of the mostest like masturbatory multi versus bullshit of all time, which is fine if they do it and then we never see it again, great, But there have been no stakes in the MCU since Endgame, and that was like almost a decade ago.

It makes me want to die that that endgame came out almost a decade ago. It's been like a really long time. Right now we have long long row to hell. Yes, and you're low again, but now all right, I've changed I've changed ports, so maybe now. All right, all right, there's no stakes in the MCU anymore.

None, zero, And that's because of the multi versus stuff, because now you can have like eight different Spider Man and again, sus right, it did it right, it could. It's contained within itself, which is fine, like Spider Man into the Spider Verse is self contained. Like I don't think we're gonna see that version of Miles Morales in Doomsday, but fuck me, that probably is now going to happen just because I mentioned it, because they have the ability to do it. There's nothing stopping, I guess, other than a cartoon character dancing around on screen with live action people, which would be weird even for the MCU, because I'm assuming that the agent was a Captain Britten that we saw in Doctor Strange.

That's not the one from What If, right, that's. Another one that's not Captain Britain at all. Okay, So the one in What If is then agent, But those are two different characters in the MC you right, yeah, okay, so there's a cartoon version of that character running around that's not going to show up at Doomsday. I wouldn't think, yeah, there's no. It's just a frustrating thing that Marvel can't seem to do anymore as make any of his stick.

They they were saying that, like the whole, like the Strange Supreme character is not the same one that we saw in Doctor Strange Multiverse of Mandas, And I'm just like, no, it makes total sense that that it's the same character, Like what why we're why are you doing that? Like, go ahead, tie in What If? I'm really okay with that. Most people have watched it, and if they haven't, it's really okay. It's not that necessary.

And that's the thing too with a lot of these characters. I'm like, well, it's not really even necessary that I watched The Falcon Winter Soldier, Like I knew that John Walker was a piece of shit, but I watched that show. But yeah, they do okay with him showing up in here with the whole I'm watching, you know, I'm watching the baby thing but yeah, he he gets redeemed way too quickly, and because the guy is a fucking psycho and really just should not have that, you know. Like he's a psycho in one scene that's it, Yeah. Exactly, but he shouldn't have instantaneous forgiveness.

You know. And which scene is the psycho? Just the one at the beginning of the movie where it's all of them in the incinerator room. The rest of it's just like laughing and joking, right and that and that's that's your that's your whole, that's your whole, like thesis on this movie, isn't it, Father Blone, Like that's the The disparate tones of the movie are like it's there's one movie and then there's another movie. Pretty much two thirds of the rest of the movie is oh yeah, the third is up into the Incinerator is a serious movie, I would say, up into a point until they escape there, and then everything else just becomes like very jokey when they're No.

I disagree. I think it's really joking from the outset, and I think that's the fucking problem. Like Elene is like, yeah, you're talking to the guy that she has tied up and stuff and okay, yeah, like oh I needed that face, like that whole thing. And then they're like like and then they go to fucking Valentina like in the Senate and like that's sort of jokey too, and they be Bucky and that's kind of jokey too. And by the way, after how many seasons of VP with with Julia Louis Dreyfus playing effectively the same sequences of like her on Capitol Hill being grilled by senators and stuff, all that did putting those scenes in and having this whole impeachment fucking subplot was made me think about VP and how fucking spectacular the dialogue and how leadnit here it is here, Like, were they expecting that, because these are like comedic people, like comedic actors, that they were going to like enliven the script because they didn't.

Yeah, yeah, I have to assume so, because that's the way it came off for me as well. I mean, why else cast Julia Louis Dreyfus in this role. Here's the thing. I when they first cast her, I was like, really, they're they're going with her? And then she wasn't really so so far, when we've seen her.

She hasn't been playing funny, she's been playing rather sinister, and that was that was exciting to me. And she, you know, get a bit of that here and there throughout this, but really it's just another like it's just another misguided attempt at humor, Like everyone is just kind of trying to be trying to be a jokester. And it's inappropriate given all of the fucking seriousness that we're talking about, because there's a lot to be mined out of these people. Well, and I was gonna say, you know, the thing that really makes me laugh about this movie is it also reminds me the most of like an a twenty four Marvel movie, because the Century is meant would have been health. It could have been.

Tree is mental health, just like in uh, well, I'm trying to think the Witch is you know, it's about you know, being you know, it's about you know, feminism. That movie is kind of about feminism and the way we men are treated. Like I would have liked that movie because X's wif. Yeah, I agree, X as y movies. I don't understand why they had to must the tone up.

I don't have halfway through this movie is when they all should have gotten sucked into his brain and then they because once that happens, like ten minutes before the fucking movie ends, it comes to life. Man. Yeah, yeah, that whole thing of them going to his brain. I was like the movies over already like this. I'm like, yeah, they should have been a whole thing after that, and yeah, that should have happened way quicker.

Yeah, the pacing of this movie is very, very strange, and I think it was hoping, Now this is gonna sound a little trite, but I was actually hoping that they would have learned, like, yes, they all like lock arms and they walk up that tube and everything at the beginning, and it ultimately almost fails kind of thing. I was kind of hoping, like just to get out of that room and they do this a little bit with the whole like knocking out the power thing and then ghosts going through the door and all that. But I was really hoping like each person would have something to add to the situation in order to make them realize, like, we work better as a team than as a bunch of individuals. They get together stuff, Yeah, exactly.

And Bob is the only one where you're just like well, this guy's useless, Like he's like the what's that guy's name, Kevin from the Deadpool movies? A guy with the mustache just shoot us up here and there like or oh gosh, there feels like there's another like useless you know. Oh yeah Deadpool literally like the fucking cab driver in Deadpool. Right exactly, yeah, Hinder, I care, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean I was kind of hoping for more of that.

And then even at towards as the movie's going, it until the it isn't until the moment where they lift up that big stone slab that they all finally worked together, and I was like, Okay, that's a little cheap for me, where I'm just like all right, like they they're all, you know, saving. Felt it felt very early two thousands, right, that felt like a Fantastic four moment. Yeah. Well, and then when they when they're fighting in New York, I'm just like, is that the same bridge that Captain America like yeaded Natasha onto one of the Chatari vehicles? Like is this the same like we're now having our Battle of New York?

Like is this basically I mean, this is before they become the new Avengers at the end of the film, and I was just like, Okay, so are these guys basically like, is this the twenty twenty five version of the Avengers? And basically everything is darkness and it's all psychological. And when we go inside of the cloud of darkness and inside of his brain, that's when we you know, like this is where we're at with our country, with our mental health, is that we were just engulfed in darkness and have to find a way out of the darkness through friendship. I don't know, it sounds again, sounds like a Hallmark cart or something, but very trite. Mike, Yeah, I was.

Oh, but I'm with that. I'm totally with that. If they fucking made that in the whole movie, they should have. If they had, if the movie had a point of view, it could have worked like Gangbusters. Yeah, I agree.

I think that's the problem. Like they they almost again like they didn't commit to the bit. You got to commit to the bit you made. You made where Wolf by midnight? Motherfuckers, you did it in black and white.

I mean again, I know Father and Malone, there there were issues with it. I know. Thumbs down, he says, Nay Nay, that's what the horse you say. But it's better than this because they allowed him to commit to more of a horror vibe than they let this movie commit to essentially a horror movie vibe. It's could have been a horror movie.

It's he's pretty horrifying if he turns you into a Horosimus Shadow. Oh yeah, that's this movie's This movie should have been half Winter Soldier half fucking Nightmare Fuel. Yeah. Like, I don't understand why they can't just go, we're making a genre film within a genre, Like why is this so hard? Marvel?

What is the problem here? I don't get it. I don't get the subplot in this and the Hulk Hulk movie. The Ampton American movie movie features the Hulk prominently. I don't get this whole thing a Bucky being a senator and they even say at one point they're like, that's it, You're through, you know, like a no, no full term senator for you.

I think Valentina says that, And I'm just like, are we done with that subpot of him being a senator? How the fuck did that even start? Was that? In Falcon and Winter Soldier? It was they blotted out.

It's how they get it's how they get Sam Wilson to be Captain America. Oh wow, yeah exactly, But who cares? Like have him just go off and beat Bucky somewhere, you know what I mean? Like, this is a guy who, like, why did he have to startingly jump into service? The man's been frozen for fucking ninety years and forced to kill his friends.

Yeah, I don't get it. I was really shocked that we didn't get more of their flashbacks. I mean, show me more that everybody is hurting, Like I understand that. You know, we see the Olia thing, sorry, not only yeah Eleana y Elena stuff a few times, and I'm like, okay, right, okay, got it. You know we see a little bit of the John Walker stuff.

All right, all right, I got it. But like I mean, as as Natasha would say, Bucky's got a lot of red in his ledger, and like all of these people basically have read in their ledger, And I'm just like, yeah, show me how killed. Cat Bucky killed fucking Iron Man's parents exactly exactly in this in this MCU, in this sacred timeline, as this movie would love to well, I can't wait. H I mean, gosh, like The Red Guardian, Like, tell me some of the bad shit that the Soviets made this guy do. No, this movie should have been so fucking sinister.

It should have been like you should have been like paralyzed by the end, like you know what, the trite ending you're describing would have worked like a fucking Spielberg movie if we had waded through all of these people's terrible psyches, you know, reminded remembering all the horrible shit they've done. Yeah, yeah, I mean, even like with ghosts. It's like, I mean, to be honest, it's been a long time since the ant Man Wasp movie, long enough that I have pretty much forgotten it other than that Walton Doggins is in it, so oh yeah, feel free to refresh me on her please. She's in a suit that essentially like she like is constantly dematerializing, right, and I remember the whole thing that's like the one thing.

Yeah yeah, And she's Laurence Fishburn's daughter or like surrogate daughter, I think. Right, And she's in a tremendous amount of pain all the time, and then they had to go, yeah that's how the realm, Right, she's quantum phasing at all times. The suit helps focus her and keep her an hour around, but then she can phase in and out based on that. And you know what, I would have been okay with the flashback of some sort to just like connect me with that character, because I think, again, she could have been a delightful character, but I got nothing from her. You know.

And that's one of those characters where she is so fucking powerful that it kind of boggles the mind. Like a fight scene with her and any regular human is over in two seconds. She can just phase out and phase inside you and pull out your heart like it's it's done, Like even when she goes up against Sentry. By the end, I'm like, this could be really interesting if they actually thought it through instead of just this magic trick of her appearing and disappearing. But they always do the other thing too with her character, where they had to have a way to explain why she can't be as powerful as the character actually is, which are those like sonic imped things that like when she runs up to them and like shocks her backwards.

That's the other one. Yeah, it's like the you know, how do they smoke in space? I don't know, invent the oxygen smoker thing, like it's that, It's that bullshit, Like, how do how do we recap the character immediately by having a magical thing that they can't get through and it's just for that character, because that character. Yeah, exactly, Again, they never explained why an man couldn't just go into Thanos's asshole and expand and kill him. They never explained that.

I mean again, the Internet asked the question. They never explained it. This is essentially the same thing, like she could just go whoop whoop and you're dead, Like why doesn't Marvel? Why doesn't Marvel employ a serious nerd to read the scripts and ask these questions, you know, and then they can decide whether or not, like is this serious enough for us to answer? But sometimes, like with ghosts in her powers, kind of kind of need need it, Like shouldn't there shouldn't Valentina have some sort of thing to back her up.

There's a moment where she's controlling Centric and it's like, wait, why do I have to listen to you? And I'm like, yeah, dummy, why does he have to listen to you? You've got nothing on him? Yeah, yeah, century I mean he's an interesting character. I can't say that I'm familiar with Louis Pullman.

Wow, he reminds I mean, other than being Bill's son, he reminds me a lot of Jake Weber. Do you guys remember Jake Webber from that? Absolutely? I think he's I think he's a more interesting Jake Weber. I liked Louis Pullman a lot.

Actually, I see a lot of his dad in his performance. And he plays he plays sad sack really well, which for me, like Bill Pullman's always had like a little like sad sack edge to him with those like pumpy dog guys and Louis Pullmans. Yeah, Louis Pullman has those puppy dog guy I mean, Louis Pullman's a good looking guy too, like put a cowboy hat on him and like he could be convincingly old Western cowboy too, just like I mean, because there was what there was a Bill Pullman like cowboy movie that came out a couple of years ago. Like broh, he was on that show with Josh Brolin. He was just out of rage.

Yeah he was cowboy and that he was great. Yeah, So I mean, I you know, I think honestly it's probably just they underutilize him, because that scene between him and Julia Louis Dreyfus is pretty scary where he's like, huh, yeah, I don't really need to listen to you. Yeah, I liked that. Yeah, it's pretty scary. I mean again, he's Superman.

Oh yeah. The movie doesn't do is it doesn't make it clear how he's not. It doesn't feel like he's enough of a threat. He's because these Guerman guys killed. These guys kill him.

That's that's that's in my opinion. Ways, well, no, he kills himself. That's fine. Like the resolution in the film's okay by me. Like, if you're going to figure out a way to sort of defeat Superman, the best way is to have to Superman defeat himself.

So I actually thought that was kind of clever. But uh, you know, for me, he's not Superman. He's Homelander. You know he is, so, I mean, Homelander is one of the scariest superhero slash supervillains ever for me anyway. Like watching the Boys, and there's just there's nothing that can stop them.

You know, they've they've been trying for three seasons now and they haven't done anything, and then just the whole like jingoistic thing, like I was actually kind of hoping that maybe we would see more of century before he realizes I don't have to listen to you, like if that's the thing again, just felt very very rush like, Okay, here's the revelation of him in the costume. All the people are there, they attack them. That doesn't work, and then immediately into that why should I listen to you at all? I'm a god? You know?

Oh you're using that g well, you said I'm more powerful of the Avengers. They have a god here I am, and that they're having that discussion in that same room where Robert Downey Junior famously gives his whole like and we have a hulk like that whole thing in the Avengers, the original Avengers. Throw me a bone here, give me something, give me the exact same angle or something, or even give me somebody who tries to come up on Sentry and try to calm a puny god or something. Just give me, give me a little bit of Avengers in there, because I was so thrilled just to be back in Avenger's tower. This shit, you know what she's mooring of this should have been Dark Avengers, not New Avengers.

Well they're different. Well I know, but that but but that's my point. I mean again, like, if if you had gone the direction that we're talking about with this movie, you could have gotten away with calling the stark Avengers, is my point, as opposed to New Avengers, which the tone does not match this movie at all. Because to Mike's point, just now, why set this in Avengers Tower? If you're not gonna do any of those things?

It's been such a long time since the original Avengers came out, since a movie with the title just Avengers came out that was like two thousand and fucking twelve. That's a long like twelve eleven like something like that. I mean, twenty nineteen was ave? When was the original event? The original?

When did the original? Because that's what this movie twenty twelve. Yeah, it's been a long time since the original Avengers. And if this is the movie that is trying to ape that movie with a climax similar and the threat similar and having a team, I don't know, why not go further? What the fuck?

What's stopping you? You literally set the movie in Avengers Tower? Why fucking waste. It's just mind boggling some of the decisions that were made. And it's like you go all the way up to the edge and then you just don't commit to the bit, like you have an asterisk in the title.

I don't even get it, Like you did the fucking time you ever went all the way with the title too, all the way to the the end of the movie. We don't see it until the end of the goddamn movie, and you you couldn't. It's it's I don't get it. They didn't make that very clear at all that that asterisk was supposed to be, like no, it's the new Avengers, or like, I guess I'm the poster it says the Avengers were not available, right, so I'm all right, but yeah, what the fuck man? But yeah, I had no problem with the fucking I have no problem with an asterisk, and then then filling the filling the title in later.

It's just that to everyone's point here, this movie begins one hour into it. If if everything had started with them on their first mission in the first twenty minutes finding this guy Bob, and then Bob in the twenty minute Marcus, Hey, guys, guess what I'm actually fucking sentry and here we go. Then we would have had time for all of this, including a re creation of the Battle of New York with the new Avengers and how they have to deal with it. It could have been fucking great. And you know what, at one point, Valentina is pouring a fucking drink just like Tony Stark was doing.

Like, but what's great is She's like, you know, you know he's gonna be the Minus Heroes, you know, you guys, blah blah blah, I don't care. And I was like, that was the time to recreate the shot from Avengers, right, like her insistence that she doesn't actually give a shit about any of them. And we have we have Robert Downey Junior coming back. We all know this if anyone has seen anything, So like, why not start skewing the angle of the original Avengers because I'm just going out on a limb here and going to assume that whatever Doctor Doom is is going to have some reflection of Tony start baked into it. Well, I mean from them saying that the Fantastic four ship at the end is an interdimensional thing, I'm like, okay, so does that mean now that so Doctor Doom is probably an interdimensional thing.

He's probably following them from that to mention, I'm wondering if they were coming from that dimension because maybe Galactus actually wins at the time. Oh yeah, it's a movie. Failed. The movie is that they lose in the end. That's all the movie is.

They've like Galactus wins, Silver Surfer dies, that's what's going to happen. Yeah, they spoiled the movie already. Like I hate it. I hate it so much. It makes me so upset because like you you you should have released the Fantastic for a movie before this, goddamn because you have spoiled the movie.

And whatever Robert Downey junr Is, however, he factors into all of this if he's the Tony Stark from their universe, which is probably what it's going to be, which is I guess, because they're gonna have a hard time not spoiling it and whatever the last trailer is that comes out for the Fantastic Four movie, They're gonna have a hard time not spoiling whatever Robert Downey Junior is doing in the post credit scene. But I really am bummed out by the way that they did the Fantastic Four thing in this movie because it is so ham fisted, like in a way that makes me wish for the days of Sam Jackson just being like, I'm putting together a team. Well in that end credit sequence for Iron Man and for a lot of those very quick this credit end credit scene with oh my god, well Sam Wilson's trying to form the Avengers, what are we gonna do?

Oh this whole copyright. Oh look at this outfit, you know, like all of these things going on. I'm like, okay, and check the Bob again. By Yeah. The only thing I really liked about it was Bucky kind of giving her some advice as far as like, hey, you're you know you're gonna need to call for this, and you know you should, you should ask for this thing from the computer and stuff.

I was like, oh, okay, that's kind of nice, because, I mean, for as much as he's in this movie, I feel like Bucky gets short shrift. I feel like a lot of people get short shrift. And it's like it's not that there's too many characters, it's a good amount. I mean, there's the same, if not fewer characters than there are in the Avengers, but I sure get a lot more feel for those Avengers, and you talking about how them fighting and everything, I'm just like, oh yeah, just like the Avengers are fighting at the beginning of The Avengers and that whole wasted fight of Captain America and Iron Man and Thor going at it kind of thing, and. Just the thing in the forest starts on a ship and then it goes into the forest because they're because Thor is intercepting.

I watched the original Avengers for this. Like, oh, okay, I thought you're talking about the ship as in like car versus the Queen Shed is what we're just going, yeah, thank you, yes, yeah. But that fight, like that fight is better than anything in this movie. They they don't like each other, they can't work as a team. It takes that sacrifice of Phil Coulson or like basically his sacrifice slash the lie of the the the Collector's cards and stuff, in order to bring them together.

And it's like, okay, like Loki is the one who's basically pulling the strings and like you know, eating this descent and everything. There's you know, like maybe Elena the Valentina character could have been doing that, but no, you know, no, she's not. That's the thing. They ultimately make her, her character completely fucking like powerless in this thing where she doesn't know about Bob. Oh.

Yeah, she sends all of these She sends all of this, this team of fucking badass assassins into kill each other, not even considering that they might decide that they want to live more than that, and that they would come and get her, Like she shows up with a whole other Like why once they figure out that they're they've turned against her? Can't she just nuke that fucking facility that they're in. Why do they show up with a team of people? Like? She just bumbles her way through the movie.

She's like the anti Nick Fury, and I thought she was going to be the even more efficient Nick Fury. Like as slippery as Nick Fury's moral compass can be, Valentina has none. She's the head of the fucking serpent society. At some point, right, she's kind of revel she revels in it, and the movie makes note of it, but it doesn't go far enough. It's this weird They make her inept with.

All of these fuck ups. What's and what is ultimately what tone. Does that serve by not having a villain that's actually a threat, because again, like they take it almost all the way with Bob and then they walk it back right at the end. I don't understand is this is a movie in search of a plot. It has no story at all.

Growing on you not. Fins that the audience can take a serious movie like I don't understand, like Endgame Tony Stark died an Endgame like Iron Man died, and people and they're not walking that back I hope. I mean they're walking. I mean they are walking it back sort of if you want to say, in as much as recasting Robert Downey Junior in your franchise as a different character who's essentially the inverse of the character you already played as a cop out, which it kind of is. But at the same time, I mean, if anybody's gonna do it, and the and the and the prices are down because times are hard and you need something to move the needle.

That moved the needle. It did even if none of us liked it, even if none of us agreed with it, It moved the needle for some people. It got some people eminently reinterested into all of this because people, because Robert Downey Junior is a name that matters. I have a lot of little points about this movie. Obviously, I think the pacing is pretty bad, but I actually I liked it.

I had a fun time at the movies today seeing it. And the last thing that I saw at the movies was fucking Captain America for And It's like, there's just been nothing interesting me between the last Marvel movie in this Marvel movie. And I'm sure listeners will be like, what the fuck, there's so many great things, but it's like, yeah, but to get my ass off of the couch and into the movie theater. Yeah, most of the time, I'm just like, yeah, I'll wait four I mean, Mickey seventeen. I was getting ready to watch that, and then it's like, oh, yeah, this is gonna be out, you know, streaming within like four days.

I'm like, oh, oh, okay, Well, I guess I'll say. It's not the watch new stuff, Mike, It's that you don't go to the theaters to watch new stuff. That's more the point exactly. It's kind of more of a wait and see most of the time. Which I mean, like I don't even understand why anyone could take issue with that, Like, have you been to see a fucking movie?

I saw a movie on a boat for free? Like I you know, I can't in good conscience be like go see this movie like, because again I'm not advocating someone go and drop like thirty dollars for a ticket, which is what it feels like in this day and age to go see a goddamn movie in a shitty experience with a shitty audience. People most well, phone. I'll I'll invite everyone to go spend their money on Sinners, which is still in theaters and still at the number one at the box office. We're that movie, right, it's fucking great?

Well yeah, yeah, and that one you want the theatrical experience, because I watched that little Ryan Coogler video where he's just like, hey man, I shot this in this format and you can see it here and you can see it. And I'm like, yes, please, that sounds great, and I'm hearing nothing but great things about it. And again I'm just like, all right, why why haven't I gone to see that yet? And I don't know why. I have no good excuse.

And Ryan Coogler is a director that Marvel has worked with and have and have kneecapped constantly by not allowing him to do movies like Sinners, which I like fought him alone, has said ever heard nothing but good things. About Well, Black Panther was good, and first one, yea Wakinda Forever. Believe me, Wakanda Forever is a fucking great movie, considering if you if what they had, what he had to do in the wake of all of that with a deadline, and then pushing him and trying to make him put all these new characters and it shit like that was a herculean effort, and the fact that that movie is watchable at all is a fucking triumph. So it is watchable. It's it's fairly you know, but I thought that's gone.

They didn't let Ryan Coogler make the movie he wanted to. He had to essentially make what felt like Age of Old Tron. Yeah, but like, what what movie did he want to make? He wanted to make a movie with fucking with Chadwick Boseman as Black Panther. Like that's not Marvel's fault, Like he they should have taken a few years off and let him, like consider his feelings and written a new Black Panther movie.

That's instead of just putting it into the pipeline and like jamming it out there, because that one should have been more special. That's yeah, that's what as I say, like they didn't, I Marvel just and this has kind of always been thing, like I go back to and again, I know, because again we're just having a broad Marvel conversation. I go back to Captain America. Joe Johnston, who directed The Rocketeer, one of my favorite movies. Like I'm always disappointed that that movie isn't more like The Rocketeer than than it is, and it doesn't have that tone and that fun tone because it feels like, again it was kind of serving corporate masters in a way.

And that's fine, but like Marvel has never been able to get out of the soul play I know, but again, like it's shades of it, like. It shouldn't, you know what. I don't think Captain America should be anything like The Rocketeer. I think Captain America should be like Captain America. I think Joe Johnston like hit the tone correctly.

I think that script failed him. I think we didn't get enough of Captain America being Captain America for a long stretch of the movie because they were worried about run time. They are no longer worried about runtime. I wish they had I wish they had the Thunderbolts fucking asterisk ethos on Captain America First Avenger. But it's not because like that movie is often anyway, it's just that it's hamstrung a little bit by that script.

Yeah, and you know what again, I was really waiting for when uh century goes against Bucky and it's beating the ship out of him and Bucky gets up and goes at him again. I was really waiting. I was waiting for him to say I could do this all day. I was like, please throw me that fucking Boulst opportunity again. Why call this New Avengers if you're not going to take those chance, those opportunities that you're setting yourself up right.

Instead where they didn't, and they're called it Thunderbolts right instead, they're making references to Ubers and stuff. And second, is it's going to come out as New Avengers when it comes out on some sort of physical media. No, okay, it's so okay, okay, so so why even call this New Avengers? Then they didn't know they did. It's in the It's literally was in the movie at the end of the movie, right, just the thing.

It's like, Oh, it's just a thing. Okay, so it's just a thing. Great, That's what I'm saying. If this had been a fucking like a special on you know, Disney Plus, then I would have been like, Oh, this is set up for the fucking New Avengers movie. I actually, I'm still kind of wondering why my question kind of went over so strange.

They literally are making it clear that they at some point might re reference this as the New Avengers. Oh. I hope they don't. That's Mike. They are never why would they ever.

They're not gonna They're not going to retitle the movie the New Avengers. That's ridiculous. Which their Which of their previous titles have they renamed? Which of their previous movies? Have they ever had an asterisk next to the title.

Well, that's infallible. You're right, they're definitely going to retitle the movie down the road. I don't they're letting us know in the future. They're just going to retitle the movie so they can get another fucking you know, twenty bucks out of us for a physical god to be new? Is there ever going to be a movie titled New Avengers?

Is I guess the better question? No? No, I doubt it. I mean, even when Sam puts together his team, it's probably going to be for the next Avengers film, you know, the Doomsday film. We'll get Young Avengers before we get a New Avengers.

And that's what I think, because I was going to say, like, the thing that bothered me the most about the What kind of Forever movie is that it's basically it's a secret Ironheart movie. And I would have been much more interested in just seeing iron Heart than seeing fucking nay More and all that shit. Go ahead, say name more for when the Fantastic Four land on our earth. Please but keep your name more away from my black panther, And I'm sure that they probably Yeah, I know the whole like. Why one Secrets of movie?

Like why do we need a secret Hulk movie in a Captain America movie? Did we need to see a secret iron Heart movie in the Wakanda Forever movie? Like I don't understand why. Well Hulk because they don't have the rights and they have to. They have to sneak him in, so that one I understand, but yes, I don't understand why they keep piggybacking other characters into what should be a one on one situation.

Right, yeah, I mean just like I have we seen Rerey Williams since we kind of forever, like she just no, maybe she showed up in the last season of What If? I think possibly, But well, we were supposed to get a series, the Iron Wars television series, that's right, and then they said they were going to turn it into a feature film, and now I don't even know if they're going to do that. Yeah, that's right. Was Ironworth Armor Wars or Armor Wars? Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right.

This has been this is I mean, it was like graveyards being under delivered times. Yeah, the graveyard of shows that are never coming back. I mean today they're like, oh, there's not gonna be a Hawkayke season two, and I'm like, oh wow, oh Crime a River that first one was so great. Well, a lot of like these fate these phase like four and five movies are just like the ship that they've announced, the things that have come out, the order that they came out, in the orders that with the Spider Man and Doctor Strange movie where that order mattered and they did it out of order, and like it that Spider Man movie works because that Spider Man movie is good. But I think that's probably like the is that not the best movie that's come out in since Endgame?

Right? Yeah, I think that's the most rewatchable. Definitely, Yeah, which is which is not necessarily great because that movie has a lot of problems too. It's has the least amount of problems, which is like at this point like Damning with faint praise, like it has the least problems of Blast Phase four and five movies like great, and that. Movie introduces to the MC, what is the best thing to come out since Endgame?

Which is current? Which is this new season of Daredevil Daredevil Born Again. It's fucking awesome. Best thing that Marvel has done in forever, either. Like nandor is the best thing that Star Wars has done in fore Yeah?

Right, I never really got into the Daredevil show. You don't need to start with Born Again, okay, because. Yeah, for me, I was like, I was a big fan of Jessica Jones all the others. I was like, yeah, you can keep that, Like Luke Cage was okay, but I don't know if I ever finished that season. I'm not about to watch Iron Fists and then like yeah, like Jared, don't think an yeah, I mean Daredevil.

For me, I was just like, yeah, this is okay, but where's Ben Affleck? Come on? I know, and uh, Colin Farrell, Colin Farrell is is missed as Daredevil though, I mean as in Daredevil as Bullseye. Oh fucking a. He was so good in that.

Hey, if they're gonna hoists at his head and he goes bulls I and then last kill. Everybody kills an old lady with a toothpick. Oh yeah, or him at the end with the uh, the paper clip. And the fly and he he chows the guy next to him on an airplane with a peanut that that he ricochets off the cabin walls. Listen, if they're gonna, if Marvel really needs to tie up the whole timeline bullshit, they need to give us one fucking thing so we can have steaks once again in this in this series.

And if they do, please do it correctly and pull in everybody, I mean everybody in the Marvel universe and get get Colin Farrelyn as Bullseye, get fucking January Jones in as Emma Frost, and Kevin Bacon, you know what I mean, bring in fucking everybody and then decimate them all. Well, and that was so I mean, I don't know how much you guys do of like the the Marvel kind of specting as people do with like the things and the leaks and stuff. But there was a leaked script for Kang Dynasty, and that's essentially what the like that movie was was you had like Nick Cage as ghost writer and all sorts of what Yeah, straight up, they were going to try to get Nick Cage back as ghostwriter for that movie just so that they could have what essentially Father Malone's talking about, all those characters just essentially like to show the threat being a threat.

You have a group of disparate characters coming together, they get fucked out of existence at the end of the movie, and then the second movie is just the rest of the people coming in to fix the problem from the first movie, which I mean, that's probably what we're gonna get anyways, because they can't help themselves. But that is what Kang Dynasty father was going to be. They were trying to get Nick Cage as fucking ghost writer back. And you know what, there is a universe. There's a version of this where we did get that, where Jonathan Major wasn't convicted of sex, I guess physically in a.

Different Let's go to that timeline, just fucking just recast it. Take the guy who is the uh yeah, this is his name, the higher intelligence from from Guardians. If you need a black guy, pick that guy because he was fucking amazing and Guardians. Three sure as well. Oh yeah, and like go, I mean but yeah, just King is a multi dimensional being and that's his whole thing.

Into the fucking character eximp shit which sort of bozo pardon the parlance, Mickey mouse logic. Is this shit You literally have it baked into the character. You can just do you know what again, to go back to the inventor of time, you know, time Lord is ass, he just regenerates. Fuck fuck off Marvel, Like nope, they they got cold feet. They got cold feet, that's all this is.

They they knew what would move the needle, and they did, and instead of committing to something different, they decided to bail out. I mean and again, if you watch this movie, this movie is a microcosm of a bigger MCU problem, which is and then we have a joke, and it's like it's always been the thing that everyone's held against Marvel is the tone, like the Joss Whedon effect, Like you get the seriousness and then right before it's supposed to be all the way serious, you have a jokey bullshit and Marvel can't escape it even now, Like just the movie itself is like that, Like the movie can't get out of the way of a tone that could be taking the audience halfway serious. This movie wants to be joky because it doesn't think the audience is prepared to see characters die.

We watched Iron Man die, We watched Black Widowed and Gomora die. We watch those characters die, and they're dead for good, some of them. Like we can handle it. Why, Like the people have grown up with these movies, Like there were children that were like eight years old when these movies came out that are adults now, Like I don't get it, Like there's no US a little. Bit, there is no universe by the way, where Yolena the White Widow is her her main problem is that she's not loved enough by her surrogate dad, Red Guardian.

That guy would be an oozing pile of love for that character, Like he would call her every fucking day. That was bullshit. That's like a straw man, you know. They just like set that sh sh up so that so that she has something to cry about. But like, how about she just wants to fucking die because she's fucking killed so many people and a lot of innocent people, and now her sister is dead and she no longer has meaning in her life.

Maybe maybe that's what's troubling her. It's baked into it. It's I don't understand why they ignore the obvious and go for them. You dog call me enough on the weekends, Papa, Like that's it, that's what we're getting. Uh yeah, where's I just don't understand where the stakes?

Where are the steaks here? They just they don't have them because they know that they have this This I think, I think, and this is again this is me just making a supposition. Here. They have this massive reset button coming up, like they have, so go for it, so fucking go for it. Yeah, I don't get it, Like why not, like you literally know what's coming up.

You know that again, we know what they've cast for Doomsday. They cast the X Men from the original X Men movies. You think that those characters are making it out of that movie, Like, No, they're not. Like and that's not a surprise to anybody, because the way Marvel's doing things, they're telegraphing everything now, because they're making it very clear that from the point that that second Avengers movie comes out on is going to be a completely different thing that's probably going to look nothing like any of this, which is I'm perfectly fine with and cool with. But convince me that that's not what they're doing.

I just don't understand why none of this stuff feels like, just throw whatever you know, caution to the wind and go for it. If that's what we do are coming, just do it. Marvel got You are right, Marvel got cold feet, because what happened was not only were they sort of slow thinking they were going to take their time like they did with the with earlier projects as far as setting up the multiverse, but I don't think they were expecting everything everywhere all at once to come out and sort of poison those waters and get everyone like a little too overused to a multi versus a problem, and then you know, DC started doing it. TV series have been doing it. Everyone's been doing different timelines, like you get memes about it now, so and so.

What they did was back way off and continue telling sort of regular, sort of standard stories, not leading us in any direction whatsoever, because they were supposed to be leading us in the timeline direction. Where they should have done is every fucking single one of them should have been crazy with cameos. They should have been setting this up all along, Like why is fucking Nick Cage's ghost Riders suddenly helping us on our trip? Like you know, I don't know. They dropped the ball real, real hard.

Well, it just reminds me of the problem with Deadpool Wolverine. It's like, because it's a Wolverine movie, you couldn't make this the whacked out movie it should have been with every single insane cameo known to man, including again Nick Cage's ghost rider, Ben Affleck is Daredevil, Like go go further, go to the Roger Corman Fantastic Four movies, Like Fantastic four movie, go further than. That, don't know, because anybody have had to have a list people in a Ryan Reynolds movie. He couldn't handle that. Wait, what see having a problem.

I'm not keeping up on this whole blake Lively Whoever this other dude is like I see headlines almost single day, fascinating. I could not give a shit about any of this. Wow, well I thought it was actually quite eliminating based on this guy. Is it okay? Yeah, Like I can't pay attention to it.

Come to find out, like like there there was this whole campaign with you know, trying to get this guy discredited because Ryan Reynolds was like rewriting the script and trying to like control the direction of the film itself, like right from the get go to the point where like she came forward and like had to how to have a mediation where she claimed all of this shit was going on that he was like behaving sexually aggressively towards her. But and he signed off like I will not continue any of this sort of behavior. But he signed it because he's directing the movie and his fucking lead actress just came out and said this, and you can tell he was like, whatever, let's just get the movie made. And then afterwards she starts like bringing it up, and then he has footage of them in all the scenes that she said he was doing it to her, where he did nothing of the sort.

It's crazy. It's it's yeah, in a world where like you're lucky to get a movie made, the fact that anyone is behaving this way anymore is fucking bonkers to me. I didn't know. Ryan Reynolds apparently is a bad man. Seems like a real piece of shit.

Now actually, oh yike, where where have all the good girled good boys gone? Mike? What's happening? Oh no, damn, he's cany He's supposed to be way nice. I know, should have been.

Dan Ackroyd was setting that bar way too high for. The malone, I guess all around the world, same song. Oh man, yikes, oh good, it's nothing but trouble. Ryan Reynolds seems like nothing but trouble. If you know what I mean.

I know we've said a lot of things on this episode, but when this comes to the plex server, I'm gonna be watching it again, probably a few times. I'm sorry, but same son. Something about these movies, like even though it's like, well, yeah, it missed the mark, it could have been better. This the facings off, This is off, This should have been better. But it's like, yeah, all right it it made me happy.

Forward two hours and six minutes in a movie theater today. I will equate it to Disney as a whole. So being on a Disney crew cruises, in my opinion, are not something I would ever go on. But because Disney has such a high standard set for themselves, even their worst things are better than most things best things ever even are And that's because they have so much fucking money. They can have fireworks on a boat.

They can show a movie on a boat and lose money on it because they're losing money, but they're not because they're making all the money up and all the other bullshit they're selling you on the boat, and it's the sheene of Disney is insane to me. On the boat, if you play the character, your name tag throughout the ship is the character's name, because they don't want you being accidentally referred to by your real name by one of the cast members in front of the children. By accident. That is next level insanity. But I believe it because it's Disney.

And again to your point, Mike for as Medio and at times this movie is not great. As this movie is, it's I think a movie I will probably come back to several times as well, because I enjoyed it. It's better than the last three Marvel things I saw. And I'm probably going to engage with Marvel a little bit further with their Devil to Father Malone's suggestion, because I never really watched the original show, but I did want to mention and I did want to ask because we kind of alluded to it a little bit. But to kind of bring this all full circle or all the way, you know, back to the beginning or again to the spoilers of it all, what did we think about the reveal with the Fantastic Four.

I mean, I like to end the movie with that what and to make that clear that this is where this is headed. And to again, I'm just curious y'all's thoughts on the way that they handled it, the way that it was executed. Well, I'm see well. As the Yeah, as the credits were rolling, I was just like, Okay, what's going to be the big reveal? And I honestly thought it was going to be something to do with doomsday, just because they that whole fucking video with the chick and stuff.

What a stupid fucking stunt that was. But that so I was like, Okay, are they gonna give us a little something like two movies from now or maybe something about a TV show we're gonna see the White Vision or some of these characters that we haven't seen in a while. But it feels like they've really gone back to like yes, exactly. It feels like they've kind of gone back to more of an the older style, like those original Avengers movies, where it's like, Okay, this leads to this, leads to this. I mean, I'm surprised that there wasn't a thunderbolts thing inside of Captain America for but I guess having Sam Sterns talk about It's coming is maybe the doomsday thing.

But at the same time, I'm like, dude, I saw a fucking Jesse Eisenberg do the whole It's Coming thing at the end of one of those awful DC movies. I don't I don't need that, you know, I don't need Sam Stearn to be and that I'm just like, why did Sam Stearns even turn himself in. I'm still puzzling that So here's a good question about Fantastic four. I agree with Father Malone. It's clumsy.

Yeah, it's just sort of crammed in. It's you know, it's like, you know, it's not like they haven't done this before where they just sort of give us a random bit from some other franchise that you know that will eventually sort of be getting to. But you know, I wish it had just been more Thunderbolts, like doing their fucking thing. Like how about what's John Walker's wife up to at the end? Is he making any attempt there?

Like you know, there are plot threads that this movie brings up that they maybe could have hinted at further, or like you said, Mike, give us something from fucking that we don't know what's happening, Like Doctor Strange is often some other fucking universe with Charlie's thorn right now, Like what's been going on with that? There are so many things they could be checking us in on instead of like guess what's coming right and the next one? Stay excited, get your popcorn bucket money ready? Yeah? Yeah, I don't get, Like that's what I think.

That's what I don't get, Like why do we have to why do we have to show the next movie? Like literally, why do we have to go like bp up buh, like because we know that the next movie is not unless I'm unless my assumption's wrong with the next movie. We saw the trailer at the beginning. Yeah, oh fair, Oh sorry, Chris, No, I think your I think your Internet is taking a shit right now at the moment. Yeah, sorry, sir, No, it's okay.

I will say, I think the point of leading into the next movie unless this is like with what happened with Avengers, which is the last time I can think of it actually mattering that you had like bu bu like a thing where it's like and we have the pager, and that goes right into Captain Marvel the movie that has to explain what the pager is for, which ends up not even mattering an endgame, but that's a completely different story. And she comes back for one scene in that movie that matters. But hey, whatever, I really just I was at the end of the movie. I was just sitting there was like Fantastic four, Fantastic four, and then that you know what they did that spoiled it. Michael Giacchino is fantastic for First Steps theme right there in the credits, and it's like you it was on the credit I saw it too, yess like, it's right there.

You spoiled it before you even spoiled it for the people that still don't know, Like you gave even the people that didn't know an opportunity to be smart. Yeah, And it said it right there here. And it's a and the and the Fantastic Four theme is really good too. That's the problem. It's so good.

It's like now, it's like I recognized it hearing it, like because again they play it right at the end of the movie. They're playing it over the credits as we lead into that. Yeah. By by the way, why Nothing's going to stop us now by Starship in the end credits. That was that used at all in the rest of the movie.

No part of the wackiness of the Guardians that we need to replicate here because. That's what teams are. Teams are goofy, that's what they need to be. Each one needs, each one needs a needle drop like in Suicide Squad. Remember that.

Oh yeah, I should read Guardian should have been the only comedic character in this Yes, thanks. You agreed. Yeah, agreed. Yeah, well I don't Yeah, I don't know why you make the essentially American American government serial killer who just goes and kills people with wanted abandon Why you've allowed him to be a jokey character and then have him be just like a dad who's on his phone around his son, which is like, again like what a yeah. Didn't get that.

Yeah, I was like, that's a pretty small complaint. That's he's, by the way, putting the person in the middle of the street, like killing the like like they literally reference in the dialogue of the movie. No, he doesn't shoot a man in the middle of the street. He uses Captain America's shield to bludgeon a man to death. Okay, how about a flashback to that.

I don't need to know that he wasn't paying attention to his child, by the way, Clearly he's not paying attention to his child while all of that shit is going on. He's just been stripped of the title of Captain America. The entire world is considering him disgrace. I might be able to distracted too. It's not like his child burned themselves while he was fucking off and doing something.

It was the child is sitting. Next to him. Wife's in the next room, comes in and goes, hey, we'll pay attention to the kid. Yeah. Yeah, I was like, well, that's like the least offensive thing.

I mean, I was expecting her to smacker across the face or something like something terrible, something awful. Yes, exactly. And yeah, when he is bludgeoning that guy with the shield in that show, that was probably the best moment of the show. When you get to see it, it was like, oh wow, this is amazing, rather than Sam Wilson just talking people down at the end of the movie. And I guess that's how the fucking movie ends, right with Captain America for him talking down Red Hulk, you know, trying to do it twice.

And yeah, I met with a friend of mine for coffee recently and the first thing out of his mouth is, why wasn't it lived? Tyler at the end of Hope Course. Still have no idea. Still, if you're gonna have her in the movie, why not have her in the movie? I still don't get it.

And I marvel just again, they go all the way up to the edge and they just don't commit. Why not? You guys have so much you know what, you have so much money, you can you can afford to make a mistake, you know how? I know Jonathan Jonathan Major's being recast and pivoting didn't cost them that much money. Quantum Mania was like the biggest failure they've had, but it still wasn't that big of a failure.

Ultimately, more critically it was a failure than it was financially, like, Marvel can afford to make mistakes. I don't even understand why they don't commit, Like what's just like if anyone can commit, Marvel can commit because they have the mouse money. They have the money to commit. The crazy thing is like they announced they're doing Guardians of the Galaxy and everyone's not like who and what the fuck are you guys doing? Like what do you think We're just going to accept anything you throw our way?

But then they actually gave us a good movie because those are good characters and you can do that, you can have a team and you can you know, do it that way. Why they aren't, like you're saying, Chris, why they aren't just letting somebody like have a vision and go fucking with it. Because maybe it's because they're all too tied up now with all of the fucking mythology and everything has to fucking connect here and there and wherever. Like, I don't know it it this movie like what you said Mike earlier, like about when this movie comes out on cable and whatever, Like, yes, I'm definitely gonna watch it again. I'll probably watch starting an hour in because that's where the movie gets good.

I'll definitely will watch anything else where they've got an established team, the New Avengers. They want to do a New Avengers movie. Fuck, yeah, I'm on board. But like that meandering bullshit of the first hour of this movie, Like I don't get it, and I don't get why they aren't more focused and more free, considering like we've said, they're gonna wipe everybody out anyway. Yes, I yeah, I don't even you know, there's part of me that doesn't even think that the versions of the Fantastic Four that we have are gonna end up being the versions of the Fantastic Four.

And moving forward, like there there's a distinct given that they've given that we've already seen two different read Richards, because now Pedro Pascal is read Richard's number two. Uh, because we've seen the Zoom, the Zoom meeting John Krasinski, mister Fantastic, which you can't convince me wasn't just done exteriorly from everything in that movie, I wouldn't be supposed. And they can bring in Ewen Griffith from fucking from the original like you. Know exactly, yeah, I think I'm not even sure, Pedro Pascal and then make it past you know, doomsday. I wouldn't be surprised if they get iced with the rest of the characters, like that's and that's why for me.

Yeah, to your point, father Milone, like just give somebody free rein to do something after this. If this is what everything now has been leading to an endgame was just the halfway point and you and you can and you can somehow land the ship and make it seem like this was all leading to this, which like, good luck, Russo brothers, good luck if you can land the ship and reset and hit that reset button hard and real hard, and on the other end of it, give some people some room to play with things, because now we have this pre kind of pre accepted mythology who everybody who's seen the MCU can watch from the beginning and then get to this point where things can start anew but also as a new spot to bring new people in who don't have to see thirty five goddamn movies and thirty five TV shows worth the shit good, because this is getting stale, it's getting old, and the multiverse of it all like you backed yourselves into a corner.

This is your own goddamn fault. If you didn't want to do this, you should never have done it. But those Spider Man, those Three Spider Man, that money was too good. It was too good to pass up that Spider Man, the Three Spider Man in a movie. Money, it was too good to pass it up.

That's what this that's what this stinks of. Still, it's like they did the whole multiverse thing there and then they were like, well, now we can do it everywhere, and they have not done anything with it since that's the best use of the multiverse on top of everything else. And that's the first time they did it, the first time, and the probably the second best time they're gonna do it is in the next fucking Doomsday and maybe fantastic for and you know what, there are a lot of movies in between that reference the multiverse or spend time talking about it. And I just I'm so ready for this to course correct in a meaningful way. I really because I because, like you said, Mike, there's something about these movies that I inherently enjoy and I don't want them going anywhere I don't like.

I enjoy these movies way too much. Bring back Captain America, Bring back Chris Evans. On the other side of this, you want to reboot it, have him open his eyes at you know, and the start of a new day or whatever the fuck. I don't know, you know what. I'll be there for that, but you gotta you gotta get us.

That's a pretty tall, almost vertical clip face to get up. And you know what, the Russo brothers and Robert Downey Junior, I've seen them. I've seen those two Avengers movies, and they work way better than they have any right now in retrospect. They really work a lot. But like that move those movies, if you've watched them recently, they have so many moving parts, like and they and it it works way better than these movies do, which have if not as many moving parts, but more in a lot of ways.

Yeah, I'm ready for this to be over and done with with this timeline and them to start with something fresh. And I hope that they actually take an opportunity to do that because the Fantastic Four movie, whatever happens at the end of that movie, we can't unsee that. And this is the last recording before that. So everything that you just said I completely agree with. I am so done with this timeline and I just want everything to be over.

Yeah, the Dark TWA timeline, Yes, you're pretty dumbst tis god, my god, the timeline where all of the properties rights are split between multiple different companies because the company that owned them was, you know, unaware of how to do anything in film with them, while DC spent. Thirty years making movies. So I'm glad Marvel finally got their act together and made movies of quality and that we have the MCU. But the Yeah, I'm starting to sour on this and they've not pulled up hard enough. And this is I mean, this is that opportunity from here on out.

And I really was hoping Thunderbolts would go further because of what everybody knows is coming. I mean, we've seen like like pre production art for Doomsday and the movie afterwards that I can't even explain what the fuck they're going for, Like I don't even know, Like how do you get to that point? So I'm on board. Just don't pretend like that's not what you're doing, because like everybody and their mother knows that that's what you're doing. And Benedict Cumber batches and playing con don't know, he's not playing at all, right, right, why would you think that?

Right? Right? John John John Walker whatever his character, I forget what his character's name is and the something so you know, like, oh what ghost. Ghost makes it to the earth, not ghost but pets or makes it to the end of the film. Yeah, wink wink, Yeah, Oh, gentlemen, any of the last thoughts?

Are we just good to talk about what we're working on. Now, let's do that, all right? Father alone, what are you working on these days? Oh? Check out everything I do over at midnight viewing h HP.

They are my co host from a night mister Walters and Noise Junkies. He and I are currently involved in the Fusco Fest. We're looking at the works of John Fusco, screenwriter. We've already covered Crossroads and Young Guns and Young Guns too, and by the time this comes out, our next episode this coming Friday, is about Thunderheart, the val Kilmer, a Native American FBI thriller from ninety two. I believe check me out over there.

I saw that at the theater on me Yeah, and Gris how about yourself? Weirdingwaymedia dot com is where you can find all the things that I work on or promote. Like Father Malone said his show mid deibuting, you can find that over there. You can find Mike Show, the Projection Booth over there. You can find Sharon and Susan's show Eighties TV Ladies over there as well.

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I'm not going to do my usual spiedil. There we go, Excipers As back