Griffin & Phoenix (1976)

Welcome to the Shabby Detective, yet another Columbo podcast. I'm your host Mike White. Joining me, of course, is mister Chris Isshue. The Nicks, Paul Williams music in this fucking movie too. It's not the only time Paul Williams and Phoenix show up in the same movie.

Folks. We're kind of in a mid season break year. We're about special, right, Well, yeah, it's very special, very special episode of the ABC Family. Movie we were talking about Griffin and Phoenix, also called a Love Story or Today Is Forever, that originally aired February twenty, seventh night in seventy six. This is a TV movie directed by Darryl Duke, written by John Hill, starring Peter Falk and Joe Clayburg.

The reason why we're talking about is because this was a Peter Falk joint, and this was a rare TV movie for Peter Falk. So, yeah, Chris, I'm curious, what did you think of Griffin and Phoenix? That was fun. It's up a time. I would say that it feels very much of a time.

The way the movie is made feels very of a place. It comes out a year before the movie that it feels the most, including Joe Clayburg's like performance feels very Annie Hall adjacent. She almost sounds like Diane Keaton. Jill Clayburgh does. If you close your eyes and squint really hard, she kind of sounds like Diane Keaton.

So it's like Annie Hall. But but like the fault in Our Stars, the fall in Our Annie Hall is kind of what it feels like because it's two faded lovers who both have cancer. But this is not the kind of movie I would gravitate towards outside of watching it. Because Peter is in it. I think that's probably the first thing to get out of the way here.

Outside of that, I think Peter Folk is great, Jill Clayburg is great. I think the movie's kind of a drag. I think the movie just kind of spins its wheels for most of the movie. I think it's fine. You can find it on YouTube if you really want to watch it.

Literally it's it's like two or three copies of it on YouTube. And there's a remake which I watched a little bit of the remake and it seems fine, you know. I mean again, as speaking of a movie that's of a time and place, Dermoitt, mulroney and Amanda Pete in the mid two thousands. Talk about your like sea level clisters like Jesus H. Christ, Dermott mulroney and Amanda Pete not your first choices, huh.

Guys, more than Manny Hall. What it reminds me of is the film Sweet November. Now, it was a sixty eight film and then they remade it in two thousand and one. So it's kind of funny that we've got this seventy six film that's remade in two thousand and six. And the remake of Sweet November is the one I'm more familiar with.

That's the one with Charlie's Theron and Keanu Reeves. And Keanu Reeves is this uptight, a whole businessman guy and he falls in love with this I don't want to say manic pixie dream girl, but she's somewhat there. She's definitely the one that helps liberate him from being an asshole kind of thing. And then as he falls in love with her, he finds out that she's terminal and is going to die. And it's called Sweet November.

Oh sorry, spoilers. It's called Sweet November because they just have this one month together. Basically, if the character has cancer in a movie, there's a fifty percent chance that they're dying before the final framele But that's. The twist here. Griffin and Phoenix both have cancer crazy she's got he's got lung cancer, and together they make magic.

Was Dermot mulrooney married in the two thousand and six remake, Don't think so? Yeah, I wouldn't think so. Like the weird hangar on from the seventies where it's like I have a wife and kids, like what again, there's part of it where it's like her coming to terms with that, but there's not as much of that as you would think, Like it really not a whole lot, which is like again, in my mind, speaks to the time and place that the original movie was made, not saying people were lasse a fair in the seventies. It was much more accepting of an audience to see this guy who is with this shrish wife and these two jackass kids that don't want to go camping with him. They don't want to pay attention.

They just want to go in and watch television. They don't want to look at the constellations. Constellations are gross, Dad. I don't get that one at all. I don't see what's gross about constellations.

What's the best they'll test for children characters, because for whatever it is, these characters in this film don't pass it. The children are just bizarrely written. If I were Peter Folk, I too would not want to be with this fucking family of people. I'd want to step the fuck out on these people. I mean, that's the thing.

His wife seems awful, Like his wife does seem awful. That's the thing. In the remake, it's like, why even have that if you're just gonna have or be this like shrewish, annoying nag. It's like, just don't even have it, like you can have this guy have cancer. And that's where the remake goes.

The remix just goes, he has cancer, Like that's it. He just has cancer. There's no kids, there's no wife, there's no other life. This is getting in the way of It's just he has cancer. And I think in my mind that's all it really needed to be.

It doesn't make good use of the family storyline because it again just kind of seemingly gets in the way in my mind. Anyways, It's also strange because the family stuff is presented as flashback, Like we start in what I think think is the present, and then I think we go into like a few days later, like he's practicing, he's trying to put up this tent for Yosemite, but then we see the whole diagnosis, so I think the cancer stuff is more in the future. And then we flash back to the camping trip where he just leaves them, like puts up a sign like I can't take this anymore because she put up a sign like the dog needs walking or something, and he's just like, oh my God, like I can't keep stopping or whatever.

And then he does his little sign that takes off on them, abandons his family, goes to see his brother George. I think it is who gives them some money and says, hey, go out and spend this. But like the trip back and stuff, it's like him leaving them. I think he knows by that point that he's got cancer. Yeah, it's strange, Like the timeline seems very strange.

Yeah. I don't like the narrative device that they use to tell the story in this film. I think it's a little much. I don't think it works as well as they think it does. And look, it's a TV movie.

They have an hour and a half, so it's not like they don't have plenty of room. But I don't Yeah, I don't understand kind of telling the story in media res. I know what it is. I know he's driving. Then he has a flash back to the cancer diagnosis, but I don't know when he got the cancer diagnosis.

So that's where it's a little like what I'm sure that that cancer diagnosis is what made him want to do this trip in all these things, but it just yeah, the flashback to me, like I said, it felt like it was in the future or something, so but it was in the past and we are in the present at the beginning. And yeah, like you said, in media res, him trying to set up this tent, it's almost like Peter falk is drunk during part of this, like just the way he's so childish in the way that he is talking about like do you want to see him mosquito bites And then he eventually like walks out into this water and stuff, and I'm like, well, okay, I understand that you have this diagnosis of cancer, terminal cancer, but you're just being a real weirdo and asshole basically, and he's an asshole through a lot of this movie.

I think I was gonna ask, how do you feel about this conceit of you are an asshole and the having of the cancer allows you to get away with that, because this is like a there is a trope. This is like a filmic trope. I mean, I have known people with cancer. You have known people with cancer. I'm not saying everybody has cancer is a nice person, but I've never met someone with cancer acts like a complete fucking asshole, like characters in movies sometimes tend to do.

And there is that time like where you know, there's a time of grieving and acceptance, Like I understand that, but prolonged assholeary in a is like that's a one way ticket to getting people to not feel bad for you to be like, well, just because you have cancer doesn't mean I have to get a shit that you're acting like a fucking asshole. It's somewhat unrealistic, but it does like a film trope in a lot of ways. Yeah, it's like the Elizabeth Koobler Ross effect where it's you know, denial assholary frustration. Right, I forgot about that of the third step. There after he finds out that he's got cancer, he kind of goes a little wild, like moves away from them, and then once he finds Phoenix, and I guess it's a weird title.

Griffin and Phoenix obviously two mythological things. The Phoenix rises from the flames, so you would think she would survive or something that she's the first to go, well. She's the only one to go. Well, I think he's going to die pretty soon at the end of the movie. I don't understand why the movie cops out the way that it does, Like I get that, oh, like you could just assume that this is where the movie goes.

But I don't feel like the way that their story is told, or frankly, that the story between the two of them is that interesting enough to tell it. And I guess in nineteen seventy six and you know, looking around, the best I can tell, this is kind of like the first of these kinds of stories, Like the characters both have cancer stories. But is this story that memorable enough to remake it? I don't know. I mean, again, like it was a TV movie, so in a lot of ways.

It checks the boxes of the things that I always talk about where it's like, let's not remake things that are imminently memorable, but remake things that are middling. I think my issue is looking at what Peter Falk has done outside of Colombo. This is nowhere near as good as the last thing we talked about, and that's the problem. Maybe if I didn't have that as a frame of reference, I'd be like, ah, this is a fun little lark for Peter Falk, But honestly, oh, this just kind of feels like, I wouldn't say a waste of time, but it's so vignette focused and vignette centric, and it's it all seems to be the same thing where it's like these two people that are so straight laced they never did anything crazy, and now they're doing crazy stuff and they're getting into trouble and they're breaking the law and being scoff laws, Like okay, but they did it like five fucking times.

Like it just it gets old after a while. It really gets old, like and we talk about that with Columbu, like you need to stop beating the dead horse, like and this this movie just beats a dead horse. To death. Like at one point they sneak into a movie at one point, it's like who fucking cares? Like we get it, Like you're being a little bit you know, ne'er do wells because you're dying.

Like that's probably more realistic than acting like an asshole. I think we've both worked retail, So somebody coming in and just like taking my go karts if I'm running the go kart track or breaking into the theater. I mean, obviously I was an usher, but he would never take the person's at the manditory. You just ask him to leave. You don't care about that stuff.

The police chase and like doing the graffiti on the water tower and stuff. I'm like, that's this movie's iconic imagery, I guess is the water tower. That's the iconic moment. That's the love means I'm never having to say I'm sorry. Moment of this movie is the water Tower.

Because it's in the remake and in the original. I kind of like that they are adults in this and that they don't make any fuss when it comes to like, hey let's have sex. You know, it's like all right. Also, this is the seventies, you know, we're not going to like hide that stuff. And also it's very acceptable in the seventies, like oh, yeah, you're having an affair, but your wife is a shrew, so it's really okay.

I like to have logic. I guess that logic seems sound in nineteen seventy six. I don't know, strange, I'll bee it very flawed. Logic is a movie like this something that makes it out of the seventies because this kind of movie, I don't know, seems like the eighties leaves these kinds of movies behind, just based on like the casualness of the sex between the characters. Yeah, yeah, definitely.

I mean they had to make some adjustments obviously you saw with the remake and everything, like oh, we got to get rid of the wife, so it's basically him not cheating on somebody else, you know. I think of other cancer movies where it's just like oh, yeah, like me, what was that earl and the dying girl and those kind of things, I was just say, okay, yeah, yeah, or like one of the most famous and I think this was a TV movie as well. One of the most famous cancer movies was Brian's song The one with James Cohn and Billy Dy Williams and that was fucking fantastic. But I mean, when I was a kid, I'll be honest with you, Chris, I was terrified of getting cancer because I remember my folks watched a TV movie wasn't Griffin in Phoenix, but it was a TV movie and I don't remember who was in it, if it was like Michael aunt Keen or Patrick Duffy or just you know, some random white dude from the seventies, and I just remember him.

I guess maybe he was getting like chemotherapy or something, and he was just screaming about how much pain he was in and that it felt like his blood was on fire. And I'm like a little kid, fucking christ bro hearing this from like my bedroom because I could always hear the TV when my folks were watching the TV, and I'm just like terrified, what the hell's going on? And it was like, oh, this guy has cancer. Yeah. So like I was never like somebody could just say their prayers before bed, but it was just like, oh, gosh, I hope I never get cancer.

Just like that was like my thing when I was younger. It's just like, don't I can't get cancer. I don't want that because I was just so fucking scary. I was always worried about buildings falling on me because I saw a documentary as a child about that hotel in Kansas City collapsing. You remember that, You know what I'm talking about, the lobby of the hotel.

Yeah, you know. So. I always always terrified that, which is a lot stupider of a thing to be tear it's there. Buildings falling on you is a lot different than cancer. Cancer can strike anywhere.

They'll both kill you. That's true according to the movies. Yeah, yeah, I guess the guy from fifty to fifty survived. But that's about it. As far as I know.

It wasn't the what is that Seth Rogan Joseph Gordon Lovett movie. Yay, I'm not the biggest made for TV movie. Made for TV movies and me are like, I don't know. I have a very mixed opinion on them, because I've seen some really good ones and I've seen some really bad ones. This is a pretty good one.

This is kind of I would say, in the top twenty five percent. I think a lot of that is thanks to Darryl Duke. He definitely knew what he was doing. He directed one of my favorite movies, which was The Silent Partner. Really enjoyed that, and that was two years after this.

I think he had done theatrical as well as TV, but he did a lot of work in television and then he would actually go on to direct an episode of Colombo in the nineties. Murder can be hazardous to your health. I'm assuming that's one of the That's movies I'm. Missing, Yeah one from ninety one. Yeah, there were more TV movies than episodes, really, but you know, you can call them an episode just as easily because what we've been watching obviously feels a lot of times like and they would actually be released to movie theaters.

They feel like movies. Sometimes. I'm really curious by is when will the Colombo episode start feeling like TV movies? Because those Perry Mason's feel like TV movies. I really think that it's the ABC years that feel like the TV movies.

Like that's when you really feel that difference versus what we've been watching. I think all the way up to season eight, I want to say, feels like television where and it feels like TV episodes, or it feels like real movies versus the TV movie ness of the ABC years in the eighties, nineties, early two thousands. I have a lot of trepidation going into those episodes, obviously. Because again, like it's thought that I have some sort of vendetta or some sort of slant against TV movies. But there's something that feels the quality of this show feels better because it's a TV show as opposed to a TV movie, because the conventions and the expectations are different, And once this becomes a TV movie show, I'm assuming it will also feel a little bit different.

Those ABC ones have such a different feel to it. I'm hopeful because Peter Faulk is such a gifted actor that I believe it'll carry it through this. You know, this movie, I think is case in point. He carries this movie for the most part. It really is him, Like he's the reason I enjoyed this as much as I did, because I think, again, like, this is not a movie made for me at all.

Well, I'm curious what you thought of Joe Kleeburg because I was looking at her filmography today and like, as a child of the seventies, she was everywhere, like movies like sem Tough or an Unmarried Woman or oh, what's the incest movie that she made? Luna, I think, But like she was just I'm dancing as fast as I can. She was such a big presence, and it was strange because looking at her filmography, it's like, yeah, she kept acting after the seventies and did tons of roles, but like for me, she was like one of the consummate seventies actresses. It's like, you know your point about Annie Hall. It feels like Diane Keaton was able to escape the seventies for a long time, you know, First Wife's Club, smother like some of those things where it's like, oh, yeah, she's and she's still a very viable actress, whereas was Joe Clayburg.

Obviously she passed away what twenty ten I think it was, but from cancer, from cancer, yeah, Jesus Christ. But it feels like after the seventies we kind of lost her a little bit. Yeah I don't know. I went and't looked. And yet it seems like you said her her story is sad because again, like she passed away twenty ten, but her daughter, Lily rob is a fantastic actress who's been an American horror story, a whole bunch of things.

So she's a great actress. So at least there's that. But yes, to your point, like, I don't think she really has the I don't know, she didn't escape the kind of seventies, but you, I mean, she had a pretty big career in the seventies. It's not a bad thing. Better have a career in the seventies than no career at all.

But it does seem like, you know, post the seventies, her kind of things that she worked on were not as high profile as what she had worked on in the seventies or even in the early eighties. Oh, you just liked Lily rob because she was in No Reservations? Is that the movie with Aaron Eckhart. Yes, that's the movie with that. I was thinking of Kitchen Nightmares because both of those have titols of Anthony Bourdain things.

Yeah, a different thing entirely still in the. Food world though. No Reservation I love that show. Oh me too, Yeah, that was the best I know. Can we talk about Peter Falk as a romantic lead?

How do you feel as Peter Falk as a romantic lead? Because this is now the second time we've had this, And how do you feel about him opposite Joe Clayburg. I think the chemistry between him and Clayburg is good. And I do like those moments where he's, hey, I know this great taco place and she's like, well, that's great, so do I. And you know you're not gonna I'm not going to get a taco with you.

You're not going to get in my pants. You know, just keep dreaming, buddy. But I like those little things like him in the restaurant waiting for her and knowing that she's there and sticking his tongue out at her, and like their banter back and forth. I thought was really nice. And you know, I know some of the remake quoted the movie directly, same screenplay.

I think they just punched it up a little for the two thousand and six. But when she's like, you know, we don't know anything about each other. We don't even know each other's first names and stuff, and he was like, I was just about to ask about that, and I'm like, yeah, I like his very like nonchalant approach to things. Other than the assholeness. I think that he works well in this which I'm surprised by because I don't tend to think of Peter Falk as Colombo.

I don't tend to think as Peter Falk as the romantic lead. And especially because he's short. It's kind of funny looking, it's got the glass eye and stuff. But the motherfucker's charming. That's where I was trying to get you two in my mind was he's a very charming gun.

And I think that's where a lot of it lies, is that he you know, he's got that kind of smirk, that little grin to him, and you know, you can see the gears turning, and you know, while he might not be Colombo, he still has that the ryness of Colombo. He still has that, I think, just as Peter Falk and so that I like that about him, and I think he has that in this role. I mean, again, like you said, he's charming, and I think Umbo is charming as well. I think that's the point. I just I think, to your point, I just don't see him as a romantic lead.

And it's hard for me, even though he did a pretty good job as the romantic lead, to see him as the romantic lead. Yeah, it was a little bit of a stretch. But I kind of like this mismatched couple a little bit too. I mean, she's gorgeous, but she's not like this crazy, drop dead beauty. He's not this handsome, sweep you off your feet type of guy, so to me to kind of work well as a couple.

I like her in this movie. I like her opposite him. I think that their chemistry is great. I think she Jill Clayver hosted an episode of SNL like she's not an unknown for Fox's sake. She hosted an episode of SNL the year before this TV movie came in.

She I think her and Colombo or Peter Falk balanced one another out rather well. I do think that her character is like a little bit of it could have been she's mentally ill of the character of it all. There's a little bit of that, I feel like, but it's supposed to be, you know, she's overwhelmed by her diagnosis. But you could almost see the Gena Rowlands of it all from the last movie where it's like she's a bit much for him to handle. And I think that is the case, you know, and we get the very stereotypical you know I'm gonna leave, don't find me ending you could see her character get to that point.

But I don't know. I think him and her together are really good for this. Kind of I think if it wasn't them on screen, I would get very bored very quickly. I mean, as it is, I'm like, well, you could probably lose half an hour of this and it wouldn't be too bad. Like this afternoon, when I rewatched this movie, I basically fast forwarded to after he leaves his wife and is in the death and dying class, and I'm like, okay, and it's so funny that I don't know if it was something to do with Elizabeth Koobler Ross or what it was, But like, I mean, my mom went to community college for a while when I was a kid, and then eventually went to Eastern and got her BA in an MSW Mesters of Social Work.

But when she was going to the community college to build up those credits, I remember her taking a death and dying class, and so I was just like, wow, that must have been a thing in the seventies. Like, I don't know if they still offer death and dying classes, but it just seemed like the most natural thing in the world while I'm watching this movie from nineteen seventy six, just like, well, of course they had death and dying classes. That was such a thing to do in the seventies. I don't know. Why see it, just there seems something very seventies Bermuda Triangle, bigfoot lockness, monster like.

I don't know that. Being more open and accepting to alternative ideas, I feel like is very much front and center of the seventies. Now I lost my mantra to speak of. Annie Hall and a co star of Peter Fawkes. I don't like this as much as the last movie we watched, but I also liked the last movie we watched because there was a little bit more serious.

This movie is a little bit more fun and flight of fancy. Yeah, I completely agree with that. One agree this was It was a lark. It was interesting to watch. It's always interesting to watch what Peter falk is up to.

But yeah, I wasn't just like, oh wow, this was the best thing ever, or even this is the worst thing ever. I was just kind of like, okay, that's what that was. Next well, and that's the thing I think when you play a character as singular as Colombo. It's hard for me to see you as anything else unless that thing that you're playing makes a strong case for being as distinct or memorable as Colombo. This character doesn't do that like at all.

He's just he's playing He's playing sort of himself. Like again, he's just playing like a guy, like he's playing a himself in the seventies. Like, there's nothing specifically unique about his character other than he has cancer. Other than that, he's just supposed to be a guy in the seventies. Yeah, and that neither one of them has to worry about work anymore was a little.

Interesting too because of cancer. Man. Yeah, I mean she's like it's pretty great. She's like, I'm just running up fucking credit cards and he's like, oh, my brother's a soft touch. I'm like, oh, okay, both of those things work.

She's just running up those credit cards and doesn't really care that she's gonna get hit at that bill because she's not gonna be around for it. I like that as well. I find that rather amused. But i mean, again, you know, if you're in that same situation, why wouldn't you got it? As long as I knew that they weren't going to go after my loved ones after I was gone.

Yeah, I just run up those bills all the way. That's right. We're eating out every night, and then we're eating dinner too. I remember when you and I and Mark Begley recorded the episode of Wake Up Heavy about murder by Death, because I don't think we had started working on this when we did January twelfth, twenty twenty three. I have Friday, January sixth, twenty twenty three.

Okay, I was just going off of the RSS feed. Yeah, I have Friday, January sixth, twenty twenty three. And then when it comes to the Colombo cast, when did we start that one? First episode came out okay, January sixteen, twenty twenty two. Okay, so you were already familiar with Falk at that time, all right, I couldn't remember if that was the case.

Chevy Chase podcast art is fucking insanity, Dane. That's insane, man. Isn't that crazy what they can do? Now? So?

Yeah, and some person was it's like, I don't want to listen to Chevy Chase. I'm like, it's not talking of Chevy Chase talking, it's about Chevy Chase was Chevy Chase talking. Get some Ai voice going and train it to speak like Chevy Chase. Yep with his Patwan. So we won't be back next month talking about Murder by Death.

I just wanted to let people know that if they want to hear us talk about that, that's over on Wake Up Heavy, which is available at wirdingwaymedia dot com. But instead, next month we're coming back to talk about an Elaine May film, Mikey and Niki, which reunites well for this film and for our purposes, reunites mister Falk and mister Cassavetti's so that should be interesting. And there's a whole host of great actors in here, Ned Batty, William Hickey, Sanford Meisner. So I'm really looking forward to seeing that. I've never seen this film before.

I don't know if I've ever other than Brian to make it through Ishtar. I don't think I've ever seen an Eline mayfilm before either, so I'm very curious check this out. I just like the name Ishtar. Oh, it's a lot of fun, right, and what a movie it is. Until we come back to talk about Mikey and Nikki, Chris, what are you working on these days.

It's podcast Overweirdingwaymedia dot com. That's where this show and all the other shows I work on can be found. What about you, Mike, Yeah, pretty much the same thing, other than the one show that you and I do with our friend Richard HadAM, which is called Rinkin on Bond, which is available at both of our patreons. That's patreon dot com slash culture Cast and patreon dot com slash Projection Booth. And every month we put up a new episode where we're talking all about the man who's all about kiss, kiss bang bang.

Mister kiss kiss, bang bang is what they used to call him, So always fun to talk about that. And we are starting to move into the Timothy Dalton era, and that'll be over before we know it, and then we'll be into that Pierce Brosnan era, and least I'm really looking forward to talking about GoldenEye. I had a track down the writer of Griffin and Phoenix. He John Hill, also wrote a movie I saw way too many times when I was a kid, Heart Beats. The Andy Kaufman and Bernadette Peters as robots movie heart Beats.

Yes, another Alan Arkish joint, the man who brought us Kendyshak too. Oh my god, have you not seen this one? No? Oh boy, Yeah, it's something, man, it is something, And I saw that probably four or five times at the theater. Great score by John Williams.

Has Randy quaidd it, yes, sir. And Kenneth McMillan, Baron Harkonen himself. Well, until we come back to talk about Mikey and Nicky, I'm super glad that people are checking this out. Please continue to listen and we'll be back in two months with some more Colombo. But until then, I hope you enjoyed these little diversions that we're doing.

Tawn