Cagney & Lacey & Barney Rosenzweig, Part 2

Welcome to eighties TV ladies. I'm Sharon Johnson and I'm Susan Lambert had him. Welcome to Part two of our interview with Cagney and Lacy producer and creator Barney rosenswife. In our last episode, we talked with Barney about how he got started in the entertainment industry and some of his early work in publicity on Ben hur and other MGM movies, and then how he moved from publicists to producer. And we're going to dive right back into this interview, and if you haven't listened to part one, check out the first part or listen out of order and it'll be just like time travel.

A little info about this episode. We had a fantastic conversation with Barney, but there were technical difficulties within this episode with Part one and Part two of Barney's interview. We've done our best to put the existing audio. There are transcripts that will be available for our episodes within two weeks of episode launch, so you can read the interview. But bear with us and know that we are doing everything we can to keep this show sounding better and better.

So here comes Part two of Cagney and Lacy and Barney, So you make this TV movie is a huge, huge hit. Then what happens? Well, I'm called at the Harvey Shipper's office. Have network, Can you turn this into street? I said, watch me.

He said, I'll question you deliver. This is October. I knew that it may first. He was going to be in New York for the decision making. I said, I could be on your watch fifteen.

That's not a lot of time, dear. We end to be a production oh later than January and making the air dage of the last couple of episodes. And I said, oh, there's one combuunt. I said, I don't have a chag unless you want to let the Retta out of bash if you last. No, he says, blinder shagny.

I have bet a army shepherd once before in my life and it wasn't particulated war. Meet Harby Shepherd. Well, I head dol is not warm and fuzzy kind of. He said. This guy's wanting to put in his career on the line because he'll never work here again.

It because, however, no pressure. You have like no months to put this show together. So we began to write. I got Barbara Habita Barbara was going to be my story editor chief. I find anybody hire.

Every good writer in town is on a kind of contract to a studio or doing the shows. All the good writers are a good show also, even if they're not on a show. I'm hiring a writer for six episodes. Other people are hiring for pilots for twenty two episodes. The differences money is stine the twenty two shows.

There's residuals. It's twenty two shows. There's foreign markets. The six shows. That's all there is.

That's all there is. And I had Barbara Habita, and then I hired Jack Gus. He was my best writer of Daniel, and he brought in a palace Freddie Freybury. So here I have with two guys who are older than me, writing about young women they know nothing about. I need that first script.

I need to show to other writers so they know what we're doing. There's no real pilot, not doing the moved, doing something. We're contained. So I invent I'll walk in one day like like Moses. I say, We're gonna have a story.

B story CE story d A is a primary crime story featuring one of the two women. He is a personal story featuring the woman who isn't feature today. C is a personal story featuring the woman who isn't featured in the Are comic runners armed with that? We begand to try to hire writers. I'm still waiting for Barbara Cameron script.

One day I find out she's called Harvey Shepherd and says, do you want a good or do you want to choose? We'll deliver this show in June June. I have pledged, BArch and there is no June. June is summertime. There's no season in Chune.

I fired or Rabbit, and we again coming up with scripts, and they're pretty good. There's a couple of scenes that I'm very proud of you, Dad, I Shore where Lacy talks to Harvey about an abortion abortion she had and he should married her life. Tells the story even though Harvey's heard of him. She's compelled to tell the story what happened to him. At the end, he says, honey, it'll never be like that again.

They told me exactly. Wow, And it's chilling. It was chilling when we did it, and it's chilling today in sexual who aspect the workplace, we did a woman's right to abortion we did wife battering, all those breast cancer, rape, alcoholism. You were talking about these issues in nineteen eighty four, nineteen eighty two. Unfortunately you are still the issues today.

Absolutely in solving you were sure expressed. Women loved us. He asked Meg Foster as a new cact Yes, yes, my first choice. She was the first one would have come in, as I said, that's a fatulous actress. I thought that she was real.

I loved her varisibility. I went in with five other actresses addition for the read for the network. Arbie Shepher said, which onen't you like? I said, Foster says, okay, if fosters it. I was doing good, and this day Arbie Shepherd called me up old feet.

It's got me a call from Susan Clark's agents. Susan clarsy television star, not in series. She does only classic movies. Okay, she might be playing this, so I'm arguing my choice. I was just look, just meet her.

She won't read, which is immediately a disadvantage. But we beat her, so I'll do better than meet her. I'll go to her home and I'll take tie daily good the title meter or two. See how the chemistry thereament. I had had time to meet the other six women in front of the death so without calling too what you chet it to her sort of position in the room.

Time and Susan were sitting together. I could watch him while I'm talking to her husband. Her husband it's a former All American football player who I gave his first job to as an actor, a Daniel boot Nice. We have faces to talk about. Yeah, and said, we're having plays.

But Aliquim watching Susan Clark is a secure actor. And the two women were getting along great. They could talk about the theater, they could talk about careers. That we're really a lot of common. Next day, I go into Army's office and I said, why don't you said substantial.

She's substitute, she's real. He says, oh great, I said, the only full A couple of problems. What thanks? I said, we have to rename that series, and we have to send it in Kansas, send in New York. What are you talking about, I said, Mary, they're sisters.

It's Lacey and Lacy. There's no contrast. She's never going to be street, she's never gonna be urban. She's a country girl. I'll make that show if you want it stopped to show you what and he calls up his head a chasting gene.

I'm having a discussion Barney Rosen's bike. I wonder how you would vote? What his choice bag for us or a white choice Susan Clark, He guesses, Beg Foster. He says, okay, in your chast that's how big fostered what ever? Started making the show?

All right? Got nice directors again. Tough to get the best directors because the best ones are fun shows with the twenty two show worker, but directors you can hire more on a one on one basis. So we're making shows and I think they're pretty good. Harvey Shepherds guaranteed, Yes, he hit.

He's going to put us all after Magnet PI at nine o'clock at night, we had a MAGNETI this is ahead, ahead of it. No, I think it's behind. After all they made behind him eight o'clock nine o'clam was eleaded, brokay. So we got a lead in of the biggest success on the show that does a thirty four thirty five share every week, coming off of the movie with a forty eight. All the banishon Avenue is writing about this is a hit.

Charoten show expectation level is phenomen easy. Be thirty to forty share on the air, and we get Parrott a thirty eighth share and probably plummet through a twenty two share. A movement of seismic proportion. It had to be an aberration. It meant the power of us had gone out in six meals and sittings in certain holmes, that they just were disconnected.

Something bad happen. Nobody patted next week, same thing and the same result in Herod to thirty eighth year. I'll do a twenty potion. It's a PUSHA Harvey Shepherd asked me on the phone. He says, you are canceled, and I said, I understand, And I said, what are you putting on in place of the hit?

He says, oh, we got a show we chancen't learned. Another canceled showing, another canceled show. Two mail cops, I forget, they're the ease. Two male detectives, Simon and Simon. Simon and Simon.

Interesting proves point. Simon and Simon was a failure. Tuesday Nights at nine o'clock and I hit Wednesday Night's at ten o'clock what does that tell you? Times thought mean something, audience flow means something. I called back, Harvey Shepherd, it's harm we made a verstation.

This is not a show to follow Magnapi. This is not a show for teenagers, towards show for adult women. I think we've want it. I said, we're a ten o'clock show. We should be on a titer back and not on after these.

Dale coption. We're not lights and sirens. We're doing something else. He says, Barney your castle. I when I said, barbe So don't you guys have research?

What research goes? My wife books an agency? I said, Amy, see as research? Don't you guys have research? Is show for women and adult women?

Start making this up? It's not true, making it up, but it was true. It turns out was it true at that time? But anyway, I said, look, give me two shows. Give me two shows and I'll come out with a campaign.

Says Cagney and Lacy are back to back. I'll send them all over the country. I'll spend twenty five thousand dollars of my old Bundy says, save your money. I said, Harvey, say is why are we discussing this? I said, we're not discussing it.

We're having an argument. I want something and you won't give it to me. Says, I'm not going to give you two shows. I said, okay, I'll take one. I'm not giving you Sunday Night.

I said, I'll take Monday Night. Do it to me during reruns. I can't hurt your women's Nobody watch Okay's Monday Night. In the middle of the dead Nielsen week, both sweeps, no nothing going on, Nobody cares. I get a thirty five scare.

Harby Shepherd calls me in. You know there are naysayers at this network will say you did this against re runs, you did this during a dead period. I'm not gonna say that. You took on a challenge and you pulled it off. Now I'm going to go back to New York and oppose it would make this have this on the false kit.

She said, I need some stuff. So we meet and said, I said, you need know listen writers, breast, I don't know. I trust you to make a good show. You said, she's not a role argument. I don't think the chemistry with the two women is working.

Working for rather swift, it doesn't work. They're too similar, they're too street. CBS of New York said, too butch some executive in New York, Wow, that was pleasant. Did you agree with him? Oh?

I could. I said, look, I'll change your hair. I'll die blood. He says, Barney, I want to recast. So I agree, you take a sixth show order.

The difference is to the thirty shorder. A six sh order a substantial I have you know, on the cost of toilet paper gets admortised divided by six set by thirty, paper costs a lot more money. Perhaps everything costs money a show. Most expensive item on a bunch of it's not the actor, it's not the directors, the amort account, amortization account, that's the rent, it's the toilet paper. It's electricity, that's cost, gasoline, the cost of doing business.

That's the most expensive signal. You can divide that out by a higher number episode macups. So I agreed to the sixth and that's how we went. So you came back, but then they said you had twenty two in your next season. So I agreed to six for gatting an order on the Fall for thirty thirty shoorder for the Fall contrigue to probably recasts.

I said, thank you. I said, I'll never tell you what's up the SCA. They got to an outset officially in a couple of days. I asked one question, I said, is house calls on the schedule? And why?

Why were you interested in house calls? House calls starred an actress they was sharing bless why had offered worked twice before and had never accepted because she was never available. She was either in a series or in a contract to Universe. I knew Monique James was the head of Talent Universe there. We had talked on the phone many times.

I'd never bet her. We were chatting. I was talking about badges and alse calls. She said, well, yeah, it's true, but what when ause calls over? She stole under the contract.

I'm leading Universal with her. I'm going to coome her manager and she still so. I knew that he's information. I didn't thank much of it, but I knew. When I got the order, I asked about house calls, said no, I can't talk anymore about it.

I then called my mother, called my wife. She went back out the plane. The head of CBS and in the West Coast was on the plane setting near her and he says, she said, well, what's going on? She says, chay at least sat the stancile. So I knew that and should have asked me you've done so.

Then I called Ronnie Meyer was thin c AA. He had head of He was a agent for Charry Bless And I said, Ronnie, I'm calling to acquire about the availability Sharon Bless player. The title will television series can leasa thirteen show order for the follows. Say she's unavailable, she's Joey House. I said, you've got bat.

She's doing house goals. That show has been castled. That's a that's a favorite moment for a producer to have a piece of information that no one else has yeah used. For once in my life, I knew something. Ronnie buyered it no at any rate.

I That began long period of very very serious, difficult trouble, come to me, go from me, painful times. We finally got it done and one an amazing show Two Women basically for another five seasons, six seasons, so one hundred and twenty five episodes. They call it seven seasons because they the way they futch around, but it was really six years. There was threty five seasons with Sharon bus one hundred nineteen episodes shared, plus the one with the oh Yeah problem Women Knowing Ever won Award as Actress except Tiny Indian Chairman. When the show was over, actress was all over Hollywood my time.

Sure you know, uh, the star of a couple of stories. When Helen Mirren on the Emmy or Prime Suspect, she went another stage, held her maybe aloft in her first words, h you Cagnelans. When Sharon met her for the first time, you know theater in New York. Speran got down on our heads and these the star of Brazilian islesis State gall who played Rissoli, came up to Sharon and Musso and Franks. I announced that paved the roads on which I walk.

It was serious stuff did pretty good, pretty good, very product. It made me well, that's too much financially, yo, help. It made me well emotionless. I had been through before that so many hard times. You heard all my triumphs, all those stories I told you about usc MGM and and Daniel Rue.

Those are that's my greatest hits. Man. Came a period of darkness cast out at the point literally I was top Aquin, but I was a bartender or tashi gun. I would never go back to president. I knew that it could wouldn't do, and my career was missing.

You know, I had been aligned, I heated and had been hurted badly. Still I'm some of the scot tissue. But I figured I'm even and I worry about that because I know people were smarter than I am. Allent that I haven't worked every business hard as I never had a jaggy Lacey. I don't know what happens.

I don't know how they sleep at night. It's a tough business. It was a grutable business. And uh and the for sissies. They tried to cancel you again, right, Oh you're made at Yeah, you were always on the chopping bat for some reason.

Now we never we never were. No one ever said you're a hit you No, I told very very head one on the year. We did thirteen episodes. They were good. Armie Shephard loved them, did well.

We were good Connor programming to football. We did five are we Shepherd took me to lunch and said, Barney keeps us up. Get it anything about the twenties to share Golden for the next year. Six year seemed doable. We were getting twenty eighth thirties football went off the air, and in his place, ABC came on with and Margaret giving a weird children from her death bed, The Thornbirds.

Thorn Birds heavy duties. So us the audience for chagging the lease. It's not only adult women. They were up early, mobile, intelligent, college educated, free sakers. They figured it out.

You should watch Chaggy Lacey and reruns through in the summer. I wouldn't see the thorn Birds at our ratings. Wanted it, and we worked as not abruptly like we wouldn't sport are we? Shepherd called me up. Very nice, Barney, this is the most painful phone call I've ever had to because I loved the show.

No, I loved and I uh, he did a great job. It was very Sincenre said he didn't think the show could be made any better than I made it. Please know how grateful was it was business, and he added to guest, I took it well, I thought. I went to set the rosebud tell him. I called my mother.

I called Tie Daily, called my wife. Couldn't reach Sharon. It's on location in a movie with Orleans. I went back to the hotel and somebody came up to me and said, I hear you got casts. Sorry here, Oh my god.

Other people knew I thought. I was so painful. I had to distract myself. I went to the theater. I went to see nine, just a musical version of Fellini's eight and a half.

Story about it, torture. Don't make why I picked that show, I do not know. I couldn't standard. I sat there slide away, wonderful show. I found out later when I saw the movie.

But that night or again about it. I walked out of the sea sick, wait to Frankie and Johnny's let up serious the bar and started hitting the genius, and finally on the payphone to the bar got Old sharing Blass, and the two of us got drunk over the pome and get as we should miss Red. And when I seed back to La, my sister had brought in a box. It's a whole thing, fifteen twenty maybe two dozen letters, not even two dozen letters, And they were interesting because they weren't written in crayon. You not saying I just went to a lot the n I p sevent a picture You know they were well scout, stationary, well written.

Any of them typed letters thanking me for the show, saying how excited they were to have the show of the year, how wonderful it was, what it meant to them. It was clearly letters that had been written and set before the cancelation. So I took the time and I wrote each of these people individual and I thanked for their support, and I thank them for their good wishes. Unfortunately, thought of my control show word enough of them, and I sent these letters off and shortly thereafter we Then a day maybe two, the guy came in from CBS large box maybe box forgetting that large box a little over a thousand. I've reached in the arbitrary picture double these two good, stationary, typewritten, telligent people do crayole.

But these people pissed off because they show of requests, had written CBS CBS's policy and send it to the producer. So I hunt, So what are I gonna do? I can't write later somebody the rest of the life ready, Glenn. So I composed a form letter thanking them for their support. Tried our best to could have been shot.

Please keep watching, telling you keep demanding good stuff that will happen. And then I got a the senious moment, which I do every now and then, trying to be sureful when i'm writing, because I start getting clever cute. I can't help myself. And I said something with the effect, if you're still upset with those after reading my letter, and I apologize for being a following, explain it so many but so if you're still upset, my strong suggestion, don't write to them. They don't read their bail, right to the New York Times, right to all s Asian stunts, like to your local newspaper.

The theory being they may not read their bail, you do read the newspaper. At off, they went, Ryan would not give me the money. Phil Boys has now become a rider. It would not give me the money stamps. We had forty or fifty stamps in the house.

I bought the rest stamps. There was hundreds of dollars. There's a lot of them with In weeks with the New York Times and the loss Asation be stunts came out with big stories about these canceling cops. The Donald who was the TV editor for the New York Times. This is clearly orchestrated my producer of Barney Rose.

But it doesn't matter. These people still had to write more than one letter. It's a grassroots boom. It's so authentic. Holes I started eating for Borrigan from every everywhere, old of the country, visue we Halready.

Shepherd referred to it as an avalanche of mail. People were calling me up, what are you gonna do about this? But a CBS says it isn't gonna say. They don't change their linds. That never happened, never has happened.

I'm now on a dubbing stage, dubbing a movie. In the week that I made all this was going on. I don't have multiple lines. I got one phone line, but I'm working. My wife is at the beach.

I doubt on weekends or nights, I've done work. At one point, I'm standing out in front of my house. There's a thread of a high tide and my house. I've Richard and I Bill put me up sandbags, and a recorder comes along the USA Today sees me doing this. I look pretty careful.

I got a cigar about and a fan of my ad on and I'm putting of it, and I say we could survive everything but a direct and they found out who I was. They put me on the front page in the USA. Did that color picture and they come out, CBS canceled Cops. Number one got to be the hiout. We didn't show in the summer against Baseball.

I guess the proper counter program. Nobody can see the original shows. He for reruns, but ordered to see them before. We're doing great against the number ten, number nine, eight, and number one. CBS closed me up before we're nominated for some eddins.

All this is going on and I go into pitch Harvey something and I decide I got nothing to pitch. What am I gonna say? They're never going to buy the show again. I'll say my ammunition for another day. I'll just go and say hello, I want to thank you, experience and happy Russia.

Showman Almost jis holiday and he says, it's pretty crazy. What's happening, isn't it? It's avalanche of baialized, says the center. What do you think the chances are bringing it back? Can you put it back together?

Harney's boss calls me and says, I have this visions go to win the Emmy, and when you get out to win the Emmy. Hold with the Emmy a walk anyone announced come back on the CBS. But it's all very well and good. I appreciate the Senate. I hope by w me Emmy.

But let me tell you, anybody get done that fast. I have fired everybody, sets a bit dismantle. I have no contract with Cheryl Lester tie debut. I think they've got to be difficult to negotiate with. Let's going to take a while.

It'll get that. Let's go to take a while, and sure enough to take a long while, and they wo, what Ryan, It's typical clumsy, unsophisticated fashion shot their bolt the first offer. When the women countered they had nothing left to give. Ultimately, sheep together and made the show. Actually then we made it for thirteen episodes and did well, but always an increments.

Seven shows thirteen shows. No one ever said twenty two go go with God. I have a good die, you know, talk yoursel about it till the last two years. Lap By the last two years, I get ut of the good one. It was a very very happy Purney, very happy, complicated by my personal issues, personal problems with success.

Always something it's some problem I had an affair. It's my leading lady. Probably one of the dumbest things anybody could ever do, especially in a two woman show. And I was married and very well, not only is you very powerful woman in business, but a very popular woman and my one time partner in business alplicated. So we're are that kind of silly or colored the last years, but otherwise it was absolute, absolutely all right.

So we're gonna take a little break and come back and a few more questions. I'm so excited, but we are going to take a little break. We'll be right back. Welcome back. We're going to dive right back into this interview because we still have so much to talk about.

There you go. Anyway, we finished the show and went out winners, and I'm thirty one years later, I'm still buried my store and very happy and what an incredible journeys. Fantastic it was that we didn't want to start about Rosie O'Neill. I noticed in the pilot episode of Rosie O'Neill. I just want to point out the pilot episode of Rosie O'Neill is about a young homeless woman that's like eighteen or seventeen or eighteen she's accused of murdering her baby, and it struck me, as we have discussed about cagneing Lacy, how timely that is today and how many women right now have been facing that, particularly under the new laws that are being passed right because people don't want women to have abortions and people want to criminalize childbirth and women's bodies.

Um, So it was it was really struck me kind of re looking at that show and again the commitment to create a strong female character who's driving the story, because that's one of the criteria that we have, like what is a female driven show? And it's literally women are driving the story, women are telling the story. And both Cagney and Lacy and The Trials of Rosunil fit that so well. And I was also struck in both shows how often you have scenes that are all women And it's so shocking, like not just Cagney and Lacy obviously talking to themselves and each other in the locker room or on the case, but literally the judge and the client and the lawyer and the accused, and that was polishing. That was so shocking.

It's shocking. Now you don't see that we had a polishing all the ways, aware of it. People of power wherever plossible be played by women. But when we did the cancer episode and I said, no, I want a man play the role. This is important information we're giving to women about their options as to sected me or look acted me, or what to do.

I want her an average shulp be looking guy. He said, yeah, my doctrines like that or even better looking than that time, so that we'll encourage women. We're not discouraging seeing their position. So yeah, we did. We were very aware all the time.

If I did not write the Scots, I wrote a couple of them. That was a much job. My job was holding them to make sure we were on message. Quality control, I just quality control of production. Wasn't that I always made the right decisions.

I didn't have to make the right decisions. I had a crew of honor to one of my people committed make whatever decisions I made work. So if I say we go that way, shorter that way, somebody might pointed out, but might say we're going that way. We're gonna go that way, and they'll make it work. It'll look good.

But I did my teachers was that each scene, each piece of material, make sure we were on message. The example I used to like to tell, I was in New York for some promotion, on the phone in my hotel room, talking to the writing staff, and I'm looking for something to write on, keep a note, And I pulled out a piece of the drawer and there's a printed out wonderless for the hotel, and I start to use that. I'm used the back of that. And I looked at us and eight so this you know somebody that costs eighty nine cents to have a man's shirt pressed. That's two dollars and forty says for a woman.

But there's that about. I was reading enough literature of paying up at ditch. I was in feminist circles. I go to New York and laurisil and I would date, not sexually, I would escort her somewhere. I mean she did introduce me at I was in Washington, DC was taking me around and the Senate there should be people.

We were friends, we were business associates. And so I said, that's the world I lived in, that's the world I traveled each what I became roiled in, and I pushed translated all that stuff in the taro will be doing it, and sometimes the actors didn't get it. I had to explain it. One of my favorite stories is, we're doing a show about the tastelessness of sexual new works, and you can tell me what the crime story is. Now, that's not what it's about.

So cagnis you are on a case about date break and they come bursting through the doorway, arguing with each other on their way to their desks. Tagny thinks it's social work, and Lacy thinks that is what they should be doing. And Jaggi says if we were if we were guys, they wouldn't decide. And is there arguing about it? The man cup gathering around and they say, you know, it's a funny thing day break.

Her lips tell you no, no, yes, yesterdayor eyes? How's the guy supposed to know? And Samuel's and chat at their bosses. No. Ellen's favor of movie is that point go with a wi.

So how come when Rick Butler Jerry Scarner are upstairs? That's romance? When another guy does it, Lacy looks at himans look at your partner. Ten But if you don't know the difference between rape and romance, you have a serious problem. She walks away and hard the death sergeant who for a time with the month of what properly tasteless joke sexual children.

Sharon Less, who is relatively new to the series at Them, says, I want to say something. Can I just as sold by partner? I'm John Wayne, I want to say Director says, get me a writer out here. Writer's being subbant and knows he or she is a trouble leading lady wants a line of dial and it better be a good one, so you're prepared to serve. That's what writers do.

Once differences, Cagney lays, I'm there, and I sidle up to shared away. Don't know that? Well, it's like episode thirteen, okay, And I say, do you know what Tagney wants? Without everything? Shares us.

Now, what does she want? I says she wants to be one of the boys. She wants to be accepted by everybody here. That's why Cagney not only doesn't say anything, but I'm going to go to a closer moment saying nothing. And Sharon's eyes lit up.

She's really accoups, isn't she? And I said, well, let's say she's flawed. And that was a seven a lie in the series. Then on Sharry Lessons of my always every week, give me another flaw, give me another problem she's got now that doesn't happen on the show, whether the producer doesn't have pout. So I said, I said, those six Sherry Lassers, and she looked at the show or a manager the show the following week or two weeks later, and that close up wasn't there.

I'm dead meat and I have control and the editing, that close up was there, and I know the show better than anybody else, and I'm not afraid, are you. Nobody could say to me, what are You're defending your material? I didn't write it, somebody else will. I'm defending it because it's good. And I don't worry about the fact that everybody shut down while I have this televersition.

I know what it costs. It's not that bad. Whereas the writer's panicking, My god, they're shut down. I don't know what it cost but it's not good. I know the difference.

But you have today television. There's a lot of hyphenis, and there's a lot of good things to be said for that. But they can never say they can never defend the material as if they didn't write it, and there's less objectivity, and there's a wholeig duality that I like not to see in a show like a little bit more collecting. I want to hear that writer's had a terrible experience. It's like that only he knows about for she knows.

And they come in and they tell me that story, and I saidlet's make that at Cagneillian's. That's powerful. Yeah, it's not a freelance game anymore at all. Yeah, I can tell you. I can tell you that total freedom is not all the tracts up I had a show of genuine lationship, did an episode about the abortion clip being bombed and complications.

Lacy was visibly pragnant. Herself was pro abortion. Cagney pro a worship but Catholic, and her father's gonna be a bad time. It says, you know, there's a lot of iriship top bosses or iriship tops. Better watch what you say about this, And he says, if I talk for someone who wanted to be a not some good stuff like that.

I get three pages in signal space from Broadcast CENTERDS Gilbert Steel I called him stainless Steel, all these thou shalt nots and you can't have both Gagne lacing people divortion, stayless, gather your forces, bring me every executive ab and Steel water bringing. I'm coming in as soon as you could put them together, and we're gonna have one meeting on this and one day gold And I will tell you right now, neither Jagne or Lace ever anything approach choice. They are not going to divide seventy percent of women in America. Now that's all making me there. Oh, let me tell you the bad partners.

I walked into the meeting head of broadcasting and Silbert Steel's boss by three degrees there walked up to me with a cup of coffee added to me and C Barney understand something. Who are among fans? Tell me when it's non negotiable for you. The air went out of my belief. I was stealed for a fight, and there was fight.

How do that kind of fish? Out of that kind of confrontation often comes very very good stuff. In this case, it didn't happen. And that episode is one of our weakest. Episode has nice stuff in it, although things I told you about the highlight and it's not strong enough it's not good enough powerful, and that's my fault.

It had because I didn't never beat anybody out there. Do you like to fight last the last year or two? That's anything. That's what the show suffered from me, said I was. I achieved my way out of paper bags.

It was harder to make really sighting shows. Yeah, and Rosie was a good light. I had cart blood show movies. So it lacks I think there's probably it lacks a little bit of that chemical firing thing, but it's a good show. I think I mentioned you before we went out of the air.

I've been trying for twenty five years ago. Rosie back add d or d Chap It's now on Amazon and it's our on needed finally, so I'm watching it on Amazon. Sharon Blessed. My wife never ever ever watches her. I got her to watch the Partner about Alcohol is It because we had a screening and she had to attend it.

So my knowledge. The only two episodes of Getting Nations hiern Sol Dolls out watchers will or Old Work and I'm running the show all by myself, and she hears the sports she recognizes and she comes to toey you sticking your head round and she vote. He says I was really fit, and comes in and sits down, watches all sixteen episodes in the first season. I told you at once, ste and we could both tell you it's a good show. I commended to your viewer.

It's a very proud of, very very and and listen, the reality is a proud of most the other times, I did some savers I should never have done. I should never be a team player. That's that's that's not who I am. My father in law team player. He was a running guard for the Nishy Southern California, and he always was taking it for the team.

He fell off a sound stage picture that was already because the exactic needed a stage hillbill or he would show even added the picture too fast and get it out cut an end. The pictures were bad. You got blake, I always say, oh well, nobody remembered that, so I mean a demastay. If you a couple of letters about off, I try to avoid that. I know it's getting lay for you, and I really appreciate you taking this time to talk with us.

I said, I'm talking about my favorite subject. I know we could talk all day and all night. Yeah, Sharon, I think we have to do three questions and then we'll talk about where people can find you online after that. All right, So these are three questions we give to guests on our shows. So the first one is what is the eighties ladies TV show not of your own creation that resonated with you in the eighties?

And so this is hard Moonlight? Oh moon Lighting? There you go. You're fast. Oh my god, right out of the gate.

I love Moonlight. All right, yeah, okay, all right, okay, good one. All right, So next, can you name any of your favorite current twenty first century female driven television shows or modern day TV ladies? Sure? Well, I'm trying just necessarily an ordument.

It's pretty close to being an order that to be acts orphand Black does a good Yep, you have to understand. I also almost almost you watch The Driven Child, my first choice. I did not like nor Witty and when that was, I didn't like it because not because it hurt, although I answered gestures that was, I didn't like because it's such an ugly view of America if that's who America is, you know. But I'm told Trump so dark best, mister lacked any redeeming guidance. What's at all?

There's a good ones world name three that's good. That's a good amount. Yeah, um, and I like those. They're all very they're all very different too, is wonderful. Yeah.

That gout should your applegate or something that applegate. Yeah, I love her. What a performance and GE's smart versions nobody got a spark, which you know, well, speaking of adies TV ladies, I'm not sure that anybody like us who watched Designing Women back and when it was airing, oh, surely thought that she possibly would have been the person. I mean, they were all good. But you know, by the way I should have said to Designing Woman, I said, said Zach, guess first, all very good friends and the Bloodworth or hut all right, we want to have her on the show, so you might have to.

I also could have mentioned my own show, christ I said, we have to do it for everybody. It's not just your last, but not least. What's the most action hero or television kind of moment that you've had in your life. I mean, you've had so many incredible moments. And actually I can maybe this is sort of redundant, because I can think of a couple of things, especially things related back to your day at USC that I guess might qualify.

But is there something that kind of is at the top of your list of something that seems like looking back on it is right out of an action movie or action TV show or even a drama even like you know, like, oh my god, this this is a scripted moment. You couldn't have scripted this moment better. I think I had to pick out. I picture a few all with Tony Barr, who was the programming his act them at CBS. Jagne lays, I was fortunate and that Tony was an older man than I am.

That I was, and I think he has had this job. He'd already produced their producer, so he knew a little bit about the lingo. And I think he had taken this shop at CBS as a step to retirement. So he wasn't after my job, wasn't out to make Anny bones. He wanted to make his point and then he would listen to me and some of the best spiels I ever gave to a network.

He was saying once I picture that he fought me on I will go into the details because you're running late. But he fought me on it all the way, all the way, all the way, and I finally said, no, look, we're one last episode. Just we'll make it. That's by Sue. We'll make twenty two twenty one doing something I don't want to.

You want me to make chocolate. I want to make vanilla. I can't make it chocol You can't do it. So you said, Barnie, we're not going to cut up back an episode. Go ahead and make it your way.

You'll learn from it and we'll talk next season. Made the show, screened it his CBS. The lights came on, and Tony Bars stood up and this is an Emmy Award winning show. Sharon Blass is fantastic. I was wrong, You were right, I said, Tony, you realize you're giving me a loaded gun for nick season says God help me.

I know it, but you got it. So that was a pretty good bom. That isn't pretty good. That's pretty great. But I guess nothing, Beach, they'll calling you up.

And so having a press conference standing there on the day as Larvine Shepherd and having him say a said, Shuman, we were wrong, and missus rosen Swagen's little boy was right. That's as good as the guess I about a lot of them. I'm enough about it. All that is fantastic. Okay, So people can find you at cact me Lacy dot com through your because your your blog is off of their um and your book is available off of there, and at Amazon said leave it to the Apple Tube.

Okay. The clear Lacy site has been staggnedant for a long time. We don't do anything to it. I don't have a webmaster. I don't know how to do vet stuff.

I write a blog. They said it is Sharon's best friend. She puts it on the site, but you can read it. It looks christy, looks pretty. But I love writing them.

I have a good time. I review television. I review theater occasionally I don't see very anymore. And I write about my family and about stuff that's going on, and I think it's awfully good. And then I hope to come up with the book again.

But I don't know where that'll appen. All right, And Cagnet Lacy can be streamed at Amazon and Apple TV, and Rosie Trials of Rosie O'Neil can be streamed on Amazon, Amazon, You know, MGML and G Underlie writes to Jaguar Lacy, and now that Amazon has been purchased, has purchased MGM, I would think that's why we're suddenly on Amazon. Cagneum Lacy can also be streamed on Roku tv kay and according to the Internet, Roku channel is also streaming the trials of Rosie and Neil. So really, yeah, if you subscription, I've an inbended distributor doing that and never sending me. Bunny Girl sent me a little bit and there never enough, never enough enough, and that dolphin enough.

Anyway, this has been such a pleasure. I hope we can have you back on the show at some point. And you have kicked off our dive into Cagneum Lacy so lovingly and excitingly and with so many great stories that were really excited. Well, I just apologize for speaking so long on the on the early stop. It's very clear in my life because of the book I write it, and you asked a couple of questions to trieve you with that, so I went for it.

I think that's great and it will happily send to you the video. Well, thank you. I'd love to have it. My theory is she had to tell the story of Pute Arthur unless you explained how we got to excalim So I think your questions are good to ask people how they got started and how they got there because it was you know, it seems like sort of a miracle. They're just coming out of nowhere.

Yeah, all this come from somewhere. Yeah. Yeah, I'm curious because you talked about where there's one This is personal and so if you don't want it. But you talked about always calling your mom when something big happen. Yeah, my mom was my biggest fan, and she liked to talk about the show when it was a little My mom was a strong woman, very smart.

She was much smarter than my dad, or smarter than meat. She had a fabulous from cabinrary she didn't use. Yeah, she should do the New York Times crossed from Buzzled in inky minutes, but every guys should use it in a norbocabinry for this game she liked to play. She never got to go to college. Self educated.

She took care of a very very psychologically damaged mother who was in and out of institutions. All of my mother's like electrical shocks therapy. I think my mother I designed wills herself not to go crazy. She white knuckled the whole thing. She just she knew she she had the preserve her sanity and that was her privary goal.

And she but she was controls but never anything that impacted me except here is a relationship. This is why I called my mother, didn't I think I told you? My mother didn't go out go anywhere. I leave the leading actor in the school play. I'm the head cheerley your high school.

I'm the embassy of the variety shop. My mother never saw this, So when the evening was over, I would come home and perform the whole evening over again from my mother. So she got to see the show. That was sort of our relationship. Yeah, that's amazing.

The dabagation went with my mother. My mother, Wow, Wow, that's kind of beautiful. I bought her her first store Will dress. Many years later she wore it all the time. Well, I hope she was proud of you.

She was my love was I was her favorite. And I was also the oldest, first grandson, the first boy. Privileged lines in that sense. We're not the wealth of our families, but there was a wealth of affection. I love.

I was a very loved Yeah, that's the most important thing. There's no question about it, no question about I'm very so sure about it. One of the reason I'm sure it's as I was here, as I am. I'm sorry, risk who I am. I can't even think of something the own inscure about it.

I'm sure there's something. I didn't want to go there, but I had asked all cup from you know, where did I get the gusts in front of that usc crowded? Where does that comfort? You're to come from behind? Kid?

Though? I mean, I'm telling you that's like your sweet spot is. Oh, it's all fallen apart. Let me step in. That's where I want to step out in well way to interpret it now.

At the time, it didn't feel that I didn't forging that. I was just Freddie water to survive. It was. So we'll talk about this more, all right, Thank you so much, thank you? Oh thank you?

Take care, please care. I will, Hey, Susan, what time is it? It's audioography time? Sharon who first is Cagney and Lacy and Me by Barney Rosenswig and from Reverence to Rape the Treatment of Women in the Movies by Molly Haskell and for the Trials of Rosie O'Neill. You can find that streaming on Amazon and Rooku for now.

As far as I know, just a little information about that show. It was created by Bess Sullivan and Joe Cocassi, produced by Barney rosenswag It ran for two seasons and thirty four episodes on CBS from September seventeenth, nineteen ninety to May thirtieth, nineteen ninety two. It starred Sharon Glass, Dorian Harowood, Ron Rifkin Who I Love, George An Johnson, Lisa Rueful, and Robert Wagner. Ed Asner and David Rash joined the cast in season two. I was very excited about it.

Oh and in season one, episode fifteen, called Reunion, Tyne Daily guest stars along with Carol King, the singer songwriter who also wrote the theme song for the Trials of Rosie O'Neill, and Gretchen Corbett. I'm also going to shout out weirding Way Media, which is run by two friends of ours. Rich has been on their shows many times. I've now been on one of the shows called The Culture Cast and The Projection Booth. Their kind of movie review shows and they've been around long time, and I called them when I was starting this and said, Okay, what do I need to do?

Like, how where do I start? How do I find get a logo? And they both were incredibly helpful, and Chris in particular basically kind of right at the moment we were like we got to figure out where we're hosting, basically called me and said, listen, would you want to come on and be part of a network that Mike and I are going to start anyway, So we were the first not them podcast on their network, which is called weirding Way. And so you guys should check it out because it's awesome and please support us on patreon dot com slash eighties teeny Ladies you can get special content and you get stickers. You get stickers stickers.

They're super cute stickers. We just started making them really excited. Just a reminder, the privacy and civil rights of pregnant people and women are still at risk and outlawed. In many areas of America. Laws have been enacted that have stripped away the right to have a safe and legal abortion for millions of people in this country, restricting access to comprehensive reproductive care, including a board, threatens the health and independence of all Americans.

Please support your local healthcare providers and also call your local state and federal representatives to let them know you want abortion rights and equal access to healthcare for all. If you want or need help, please go to Abortion Funds dot org and if you can donate to help the Pinkhouse Fund dot com. All of these will be on our website. Ladies and gentlemen, be sure to tune into our next episode where we have the amazing Time Daily, six time Emmy Winner, one time Tony Winner. Time Daily, Yes, that Time Daily.

We can't wait. In the meantime, we hope eighties CV Ladies brings you joy and laughter and lots of fabulous new and old shows to watch, all of which will lead us forward toward being amazing ladies of the twenty first century. Did I tell you that Time Daily is coming on our next episode, Sharon, I know, right? Babies to sixy, I'm so pretty play out into the city, staying and treating gouty O god, baby, Ladies,