Cagney & Lacey with Tyne Daly

Hello, and welcome to eighties TV ladies. I'm Susan Lambert Haddam and I'm Sharon Johnson. We hope you are hanging in there and finding joy. We are super thrilled to be looking at Cagney and Lacy. We have such a very special guest today who is here in our recording studio right now.

And by our recording studio, we made my garage office. That's correct. Cagney and Lacy was a groundbreaking eighties show starring Sharon Glass and Tyne Daily that won fourteen Emmys. This detective drama ran from nineteen eighty two to nineteen eighty eight on CBS and examines both the cases and personal lives of two female police officers in New York City. It also spawned several TV movies.

Let's get started, so to that end, our very special guest today is Tyne Daily. She is a stage and screen actress and a multi Emmy winner. She won a Tony Award for Best Actress in a Musical playing Mama Rose in Gypsy on Broadway. She has been inducted into the American Theater Hall of Fame. She may be best known for her role as Marybeth Lacy in television's Cagney and Lacy.

She also starred as Amy's mom, Maxine in six Seasons of Judging Amy, and has done multiple television appearances, stage productions, and movies, from the nineteen seventy six third Dirty Harry movie The Enforcer, where she played a female cup to Spider Man Homecoming. She's also an activist and co hosted a night with Sharing Glass at a reading of the play Row by Lisa Luomer that was at the Fountain Theater here in Los Angeles. Tyne Daily has won six Emmys, four for Cagney and Lacy playing Lacy, of course, one for Christy, the one season period drama, and one for Judging Amy. All right, well, welcome to the show Time Daily. Thank you so much for joining us.

We're very excited to have this discussion with you. I'm very excited for joining because I have a very difficult time in the twenty first century with everything being filmed and everything being sent through the air and everything being electronic. When you get old, which I hope you do because it's a really interesting time of life, but when you get old, there'll be a whole lot of stuff to adjust to that you will not have seen before. I promise you, I'm already finding that things that are happening where I just find myself going, I don't understand the need for this, or why we should be pushed to that, or what the heck is that you know? And why is anybody interested?

Kind of thing? Well, I think I began to tell you I'm asking people to give me one word on the twenty first century. So far, we're not a quarter of a century old century and we're moving in on it though, But a little assessment about if you had to find a descriptive, if you were a poet for insan a thing to say this century, you get one word. It's very tricky. Oh yeah, it is.

Oh you don't have to answer immediately. Goodness. However, perhaps at the end of because I and if you'd like to know mine now, I'll tell it to you, yes, or I could wait. Let's wait because okay, so where are we now? Okay, Well, I do want to talk about the beginning of your career first, if we can, um sure, you come from an acting family, went in the family business on base.

It was the only way to get their attention. There was a there was a young there was a theater, a local theater, the Antroom Players, from the place we moved after, well, there was a lot of schools before that. We moved around a lot. When we settled down and Stuffer in New York, there was the Antroom Players, which just closed their doors forever, which makes me very sad. Oh they're going to turn into a church, oh dear and um.

But they had a program for kids and uh and for grown ups. And I got to escape there and do my apprenticeship and then played there a little bit. Then the parents, you know, they were parents. They they they wanted me to go to college. They wanted me to finish high school.

I mean they were said, they were so they pinched me so hard because by the time I got to the Antine Players, I wanted to do it all. So I did. I finished high school barely on the good graces of a of a history teacher who said, basically, oh, get out of here, you know, with your with your D minus. I went to a Brandeis University for a quick year because there was a man from American history of the theater named Jasper Deeter. Jasper either a ballplayer or theater right one or the other jasper deater, and that he was gone after my freshman year as a teacher, although I learned a great deal from him.

He was one of my lucky teachers. And then I found out they weren't going to let me on the stage until I was a junior. Really something, hell you say? So I went home to the parents and said, I quit college, send me to trade school, went to trade school, met my husband, got married, got pregnant, came out here. I'd had done a couple of plays in New York um quickly, and a couple of seasons of summer's stock um.

And I got out here and called in all of the connections that I had, and none of them paid off. What was that? Because you wanted to work in movies and television? Is that? What was it?

Or did you wanted to follow my young husband and for us to raise up our baby together? And I didn't want to leave New York at all? This was foreign territory and in many ways still is because this is a movie. This is the movies. New York is the theater.

There's the movies on those terrible, you know, dichotomies that we are forced to do. But I tried to find theater here. I did do some theater out here, but I felt that I was leaving the theater town forever, and I was. I was in mourning for that, because that was what I had fantasized about Broadway, Broadway, how great you are? Not the silver screen that was for ideals in that day and age.

It's only for ideal people. And they cried ideally, and they suffered ideally, and they made love with a certain amount of cooldest cool not hot coolness was the big I wasn't any of those things, and I wasn't going to be. But the luck of timing, which they don't talk to you about in acting school, was that we hit the dustin Hoffen. We had the real people time, you could look like a person. You didn't have to wear your brat a wave, as did my young husband, who hit the wave of the inclusion of black people for the first time very long time.

So the luck was was those cultural timings, both for the women's movement and for the social revolution of race. And in that sense we were very lucky. And then we did the work, and then I was middle aged, I was thirty four years old. I was done, come on Who's that wonderful wonderful who directed? Um?

Some like it? Hot? Oh? Bill Billy Wilder. Billy Wilder famously said there's only one thing for a woman to do in Hollywood after thirty, and that's leave town.

And he was one of the nice ones. They were exploiting little girls from twelve, like the Gish Sisters all the way up, but nobody wanted to take a look at anything that wasn't smooth and whiten and feminine. Let me put some quotation marks around that, no threat to the patriarchal feminine id and the ugly people were allowed. That the non perfect people were kind of in fashion. So I was just definitely not perfect.

I feel like in the movies, I couldn't pass the physical movies, like the Marines. In terms of your assignment, you know, there's a there's a there's a requirement for a certain kind of strict adhering to the rules, and I was really much more interested in being a mash unit, you know what I mean, help people fash them up because they've been hurt of When you first came to La, though, did you find much to your liking of the theater community here or was it fairly non existent at that time. We made a couple of theaters. We made a wonderful little theater in the valley that was this little space. We did some very esoteric plays, We did ball and it was fun because we turned into a sweet little theater.

This is when there was a under a hundred and then under you know, and you could still get a dispensation from your union. Some of us were union women, as some were you know, milkman. At any rate, when we lost that theater after two seasons, we had to turn it back into a storefront. It was heartbreaking, sweet little thinks in the little boxes and all this time, No, it was on more park Um. Who was in it, interestingly was David what's his name Starsky?

He was called can say what are you? And I'd say Starsky and David chepers. It'll come to me. This is why I so, David, I'm going to help you out with the internet technology. Okay, that's cheating though.

That's the depth of conversation that machine. Because people don't you know, what's his name Boos in that movie with Um, you know she was married to him. All that fellow who did the thing that he was doing he worked for, um, you know at that studio. Well, we know what at the place behind that, we're done. We're about this Mike and Temporis.

And you've got another ten years. You you've got another nine years before your brain leaves. Oh no, no, it's already leaving the station. It's it's it's so we were speaking of culture, yes, being lucky. What happened before that?

So I did. I did ten years here of freelancing on television and getting jobs through my connections and through having you know, delivered on those connections, you know, but the getting the job is hard. My dad had a show, My husband had a show. Your husband was in the rookies, right, he was in the rookies. We were talking about Aaron Spelling too.

In those paternal you know, uh producers who could announce at the end of their season there would be another season. Everybody has a job, go on vacation, gone hiatus, and have a good time. So them days are over. Um. I had done a couple of pilots for various proposed series and gone home and fallen on my knees and prayed to my maker not to have it sell.

Please don't make me have to do that for another fifteen minutes much less, you know, five years. I got lucky in the movies a couple of times, but that didn't pan out to be anything um in terms of work. I was approached my way agent with a script called Caddy and Lacy, and I said, I did I did my cop I did my cop with with Eastwood, the Unfortune. That's that's over, you know. And he said, read it, and I read it and I thought, oh, there's room in here for something else this side running gun and yeah and every and the other thing was that I'm by that time was a little bit smart about the business.

I thought, every single actress in this town is going to throw a blonde wig on her head and want to play Cagney because Cagney's glamorous and Cagney's funny, and Cagney is sharp in a very specifically second way of feminist way. Yes, which self life, I'm not so sure, but anyway, so I thought, I thought. I actually thought I'm Mary was more interesting, had more possibilities in terms of a long run thing. And then we did it, and then it wasn't appreciated. Well, it got good numbers with the Retta a very good numbers because THEREDDA was a pistol playing hot lip school lunt and so it was her.

They owed her a movie the week, like they did to sweetened contracts. Then uh and uh, yeah, I got a sensational Now he's got sixty something. It doesn't happen anymore. No, But there wasn't an inkling in doing the TV movie that there might be a series in this. Now to me, I thought it was a one off, you know, um and um so we we had no contract for it.

So then this this network who lives and dies on math, which is the difference actually between the theater and the movies. Of the theaters is words and the movies is numbers. So just by the way, um so, they got I pressed, and they went to Barney. They said, where's our serious? Maybe he told her this story and he said, I don't have Daily.

I would have Switt. What do I do now? They said it Swit's tied up in her series doing the eleventh year, I believe of Mash And they said get Daily. You know. So we we came to a deal and started looking for a new, a new Cagney.

And then they told me the long history of who they'd wanted in the first place, and bloody, bloody, that's a long that's eleven times told you. But but but so then you did the first season with Meg Foster, Yes, as Cagney. Yeah, and like this was your second run as Lazy. What changed for you for that character between the movie and the and the show and then with the different Cagneys. I'd been playing with the big boys, and I'd had to make compromises, personal ones, personal ones about loyalties and about advancing my own career and about Yeah, I I it was.

It was a it was a very tough time because Meg and I had worked well together. We had done what you came television series. Don't spring full blown from the mind of zeus, right, there's an idea, you do it. And then, as Amy Brenoman once said to me famously, she called me up after after we were picked up for judging Ham and she said, I know what it is now, I know we have to keep doing these. I said, yeah, maybe we do at least well, yeah, it's a whole, it's a whole different animals.

So I thought we were done, and we weren't done, and I was. I was for about a minute and a half, well or week and a half in on the casting process of the new Cagney, and I was still aching from Megan and I Megan and I because I thought we'd sort of started to figure it out. Yeah, but there wasn't any start to figure it out. There was delivered, delivered, deliver, you know. So oh after that, sitting with these listening to these people audition, these these actresses, all of whom I admired, I mean, any of the smart one said oh that's a good part.

I like to have that part. We don't see those parts very much and TV, you know. And they all came in and they read. And after the first day and a half of my reading with them, I said, Fellas, I can't stay in this room with you. When these actresses leave, I cannot listen to you speak about these women and these workers.

I will go down and get them from the waiting tank and I'll bring them down to you and we'll read together, and then I'm leaving because because I did not have the soul of a boss do that. It was my souldier heard from trying to protect them physically from these assaults on their personhood that Timmy had very little to do with acting any rate. So I'd had an encounter with the powers that be. Yeah, and I'd been threatened with a court if I broke my contract. And what it was?

His name, Harvey Harvey, not Harvey for that's a play, right, Harvey Lazy. That was my husband, Harvey Weinstein. That was a bad guy, one of those Harveys, one of those Harry. He said to me over lunch at some very fancy place. I was knitting like a mad thing.

It brought my knitting. He said, well, would you like to be working for me next year or would you like to be in court? Is this because you were like I was saying, I was trying to I went into Meg over Meg, I said, we've laid the ground work, We've done the thing. You know, we're just beginning to roll with it. This is gonna work.

It's gonna be great. She's a she's a She's she's my Cagney A little did we know anyway? Oh God, it's a long time ago, and the struggles were real, and the struggles were mostly about trying to make a better product right from everybody. I think now I'm a little kinder at the time, you know, since you were so personally involved, this is you're you're going to be your literally your partner, yeah, on the show. And it's it's yeah, it's it's not just it's hard to be to be objective about it in that way because it's different for you than for the producers and everybody else involved.

Well, people say often don't take it personal. Whatever it is, this is very personal work. Yeah, this is my instrument here, it is sitting in front of you, size, shape, age, whatever. This is what I have to work with and my brain and my memories and my guts and all those things. And it is personal work and it's about and it doesn't work if someone doesn't pick up on how personal it is to you and feels that same way too.

It becomes personal for the person you're telling the story too, And that stuff is that's that's tricky stuff. You know. I wonder half of us go mad and turn into drugs. I'll admit. Until we started doing this podcast and started looking at Cagney and Lacy, either I didn't know or I just didn't remember that Sharon Glass was Cagney number three.

Yeah in the show. Well, so, d you didn't need to and that's good. That's good became she became the one. She said, they were the one they wanted in the first place, and she was tied up in a series of her own. We had met a couple of times.

I went to full courtship because I wanted the job for myself. Come on, I wanted it to work. I didn't want it to fall apart, right, do you know any rate now? And then we were fired, and then we were hired, and then there were prizes, and we were fired again, and you know, it was it was a really nice, chunky roller coaster. I was going to say for such a successful series.

From the outside, it had a very tumultuous history. We learned from Barney and from reading about the show and stuff, and so I imagine being in the middle of it, just trying to do your job and being surrounded by whether we're going or not going, who we're going with, who is being handed to us well and more. And the more difficult designer was to be some kind of a example or a role model or you know, what do we stand for? How do you account for the success of this show? When we go to actors and we put stick the micro in their face, and we want them to know stuff that isn't often in their can and sometimes they're deeply stupid about And I want to say, gold, talk to the people you elected.

What are you talking to me for? Why do you want my opinion about this? You know? Uh? Do I have one?

Sure? No, I don't think it's appropriate if he would be asking me about this, ask me about what I do any rate? Um, that was very annoying to me. I didn't you know. And the the part where you're supposed to represent something.

It's at this point that miss Daily notices the Jimmy Stewart retrospective poster on the wall of my office. There's Jimmy Stewart right up on the wall. Look, hi, Jeeves. So I'm sorry. I went to school and organized a retrospective of Jimmy Stuart movies because I wanted to see them.

Yes, and I got to meet him too at the last It was it was really again an incredible memory, and he was so kind and gracious that he love me. Man. Yeah, did you did you go around when he did his show and walked about his past and all that? Why I wasn't out here then? But yeah, it's a strange jill for actors, actors and all performing artists.

Although we have film and although we have all of that recording devices, you only serve in your own time. I could not have served in the thirties. And bet Betty Betty, Betty Da Davis could not certain down, couldn't get a job. I mean, you know, the styles change, and a very smart friend who said to mean, when styles change, but the truth does not. So you can see the truth's tellers, you know, in the movies and the theater.

And I think it's one of the canting Lacy holds up and think it's because you guys are truthful in your moments. There's truthful moments. That's what we were working for. Yeah, and it comes through it. And there's a whole lot of bullshit too, I mean actually there's but yeah, no, but the end of the season, we used to get to a pointment and Barnie Rosen so I moved and we say, okay, so this year we did twenty two or twenty four, what it would and which ones would you keep?

If you would keep eight, we're doing great, you keep eleven. That was a very good season, if you know, and if and it was going down into the round line I'm not proud of. Then we were, then we jumped the shark. Then it'd gotten silly. Then we were grasping at straws, and I wish we were more than like the English?

Are you know to say this, this story has a finite yes, amount of time to tell. Yeah. I'm have two minds of that though, because as a television consumer, a lover of television, I'm happy to spend as much time as I possibly can with these characters that I like, these shows that I enjoy. But at the same time, it is nice when you know the expression about going away before your miss or let the miss you I want you to go Yes, exactly, I understand that as well. So I'm always of two minds when it comes to that, um, because yes, I would love to spend as much time with characters that I enjoy and shows that I enjoy as I possibly can.

But when you're doing twenty two twenty four episodes a season, they're not all going to be, you know, keepers, because of the runaway train that is television production, you know, So there's just not a lot of time for that. But it's it, But it's so awful. Well, when my daddy started doing serious television, they did thirty nine episodes a year. That was one of the hiatus was fifty two weeks cut in quarters, thirty nine episodes hours and yeah, and he was he was on an hour show. And so then I saw it slip for him when he was going out to the coast, and it became thirty six, and then thirty four and then twenty eight.

That was a big dip, you know. And Dad, what has changed again? Now it's six and and maybe eleven was what I was thinking about about the Sopranos. Eleven. How did you know all that same money, all that same amount of time, time and money makes things excellent.

But yes, we had When Sharon and I did three shows together, they showed two of them on television, and then Barney begged to have the third one also shown, you know, and my friends thought I was lucky because they were only making two of which. It's the business. I know far more about this business than I want to. I never wanted to know anything about show business. I wanted to pretend to be somebody else, and so like unto Thick, that's not uncommon impulse.

I wanted to disappear into somebody else and show off at the same time. See that's it's one of the nice psychotomies. I used to say, you know, the impulse to show off and the willingness to disappear. But in terms of reality television, if I was remotely interested in reality, you think I would have been an actor. No, let's pretend and have dress up.

Let's have fantasyland, old school. So that reminds me of an interview that I watched with you where you talked about one of the first things you do is find the voice of the character. And your voice is so amazing, right, But I love that thought that that's how you approach Well, it's not so much as finding the voice is it is hearing her, and and the hearing of her doesn't come just out of my brain alone or auditory hallucinations as we say, it's um, it comes from the page. It comes from the from the written what's on the page? And I, um, I'm as I said, I'm not a visual I'm an a oral learner.

Used to don't talk about that. They just started talking about that with my little girls. What kind of a learner? Is she slow? Or um?

So, yeah, I often, um music, the the auditory thing, um is a stimulus for me more than the visual. Whereas my young husband George, I used to catch him, you know, standing in doorways displace and I knew he was directing. I knew it was, you know, seeing it, trying to envision it. Yeah. Does that answer your question?

You know, I'm just fascinated by different actors, different approaches to creating these characters. And and Marybeth is such a subtle character in a lot of ways, much more than Cagney. Cagney is sort of through the door first, I guess, yes, right, Well maybe in cliche Cagney is not a little more available, you know, because she's more showy Lacy. I just liked her, and I also thought she was doing a struggle that now I was involved in myself, but on being an actress level, not a being a housewife and with a second job at you know, the local hotel cleaning rooms. I mean, um, she was trying to do that particularly juggling act I'm getting into it.

Uh. You know of the of the eighties women you can have it all, and that wasn't true. You certainly can't have it all at once. You can have it all very quickly, one after another, if you are have an endless supply of energy and good temper um. Yeah, she was throwing herself up against a bunch of walls.

Yea, with her husband and her kids and her work. Then I thought was worth telling stories about. And then what do you know? A whole lot of people wanted to hear stories about themselves on TV. What a surprise, I know.

And I wanted to see themselves reflected. They wanted to see women being real in their lives and everybody else too. It was, I mean, it was, it's it's it's again. It's a crack in the I'll read the statistics of our union. Still, how many stories are told about the white male in the society, and it's and we reflect.

Some people think television's leads. I'm not so sure. I think we reflect. I think a lot of what we were talking about on Cadney and Lacey had been talked about in the world. Do you know.

But here we are again, with people, you know, assaulting clinics that take care of women's health, with people marching in the streets saying we matter. Can you see us? With people confused about the well police who have played a policeman. What was my husband and I played policeman in those days. If you think we didn't go home and discuss and decide to accept that in them days, then you underestimate both of us because it was not easy to say I'm lining up with the pigs.

Not only we've been marching for Vietnam and meaning it, you know, compromises. Yeah, the end of the Vietnam War was really not that far away from when No No, and all the things that went on, you know around it. It's not that far away. So it's it's totally understandable. The entertainment industry for peace and justice, it's the worst one of those things that NATO's the one that those things into a word.

The E I, PJ. Jane fun and Don Sutherland and us with carriages in the street, you know, the street theater, all that stuff, and we've been back. I just did Street theater again sort of. Sharon and I introduced a play by a Lisa Lumer called a Road Wade that's you know here, yes, you know, to a bunch of people to hundred people in a thing saying don't give up the ship. Um, it's it's disheartening.

And yet I know there's progress, but only progress if you, if you, if you insist on it. Yeah. Yeah, the fight never stops. For a lot of things you have to keep you have to keep fighting. So I just don't.

I'm not an idea my version of fighting because I'm not very um, I don't have a very aggressive spirit. So my version is storytelling. Yeah, and I think human beings these stories. I don't think. Sometimes I think, oh, I've spent too much time with words.

I've wasted my time with too many words. And I'm still looking for the right words. I still call up my friends and you want to hear a poem, you know, I just uh, And I know that that can be not as useful as deeds. Words and deeds. I think everybody has to contribute what they can.

At the end of the day, everybody can't do everything. Words are very powerful, which we're seeing the policing of words, and we're seeing you don't get to call yourself what you want to call yourself, and we're seeing so words are very, very very powerful. Yeah, and you know it's the First Amendment, freedom from fear. Freedom from fear here all right, So We're gonna take a little break. We'll be back, all right, Welcome back.

Oh my gosh. So did we get up to Caddy and Lacy? What do you want to talk about? I want to talk about Cagney and lay more about Cagney and Lacy. And you know what your favorite moments were, like what you still hold dear M.

I don't went at the end of the show. Um, they gave us an opportunity to have all of the UM episodes, the entire series. And it was a choice between Beta Max and VHS. Yes, BHS. I didn't understand it, but I did did a little research.

I found up Betamax was smaller and better resolution, both visually and audioly, so I said I'll have Beta Max. So I haven't seen Caddy and Lacy in forty years. UM and uh, not really interested in it. UM looking at oneself is a mixed bag. And and and Sharon will tell you maybe or you know, she used to sit down with with UM Monique James, who was her mentor at Universe, and they'd watched dailies and Monique say, Runner, that's that's good.

I like that. When you do that, don't don't ever do that. Watch out when you do that thing with your don't do it and talked her through how to look and it was just um foreign to my nature. Um. I thought for a while I'd look at the shows and Marnie said, it was an interesting opportunity to see, if you know, if you'd made a table that had four good legs or one leg was short, you could assess the work.

But the opportunity to really see yourself when you're making it was very rare. There wasn't any tvo or look at it afterwards. I remember looking at dailies every once in a while from Assina. I was interested in for a while because we had the whole operation at Lacy Street, which was an old brick factory that they turned into a studio with everything. The first year or so season or so, we didn't have the sound department, but we had the writers upstairs, and we had the cutters downstairs, and we had the costume department.

It was all kind of a self contained, a little factory of our own. Um. We didn't have to report to Universal, and if the powers would be called up and said, oh we hate that scene, you can't do it anymore, said sorry. We filmed it, Oh, too bad shot and then they were too cheap to so it was a lovely cocoon in a way out there. But um, collecting favorite moments, I don't you don't do it.

I don't do it. Really. I know that I had very good times working with a particular director or on a storyline. Um, when we were being the heroes, and then as the thing went on, there were there was the victim requirement. People had to be date raped, and people had to have breast cancer, and people had to have you know that things that were the victimhood of the female cop was not required from some of our colleagues with penises if I could see that.

But um, and that was that was another interesting thing to negotiate. I remember, yeah, you know, trapped in the in the thing we did called heat when you're the bad guy, trapped you in the in the in the hot being a victim. I um, yeah, they were good acting opportunities. I liked the quieter ones. Um, but it's it's painful to me to try and name you episodes.

I'm I mean we picked out did they work or did they don't work? A very smart man named Arthur Lawrence, whom I encountered later as a director, an old fox of the theater, and he said to me, there's no right and wrong in the theater. It is it work or not as a worker doesn't work, you know. So I think we worked it mostly. I don't feel that there were times when we really betrayed the side or something.

There were a couple of stupid episodes, you know, but they were mostly just relief from you know. Now I've done twenty of these lists. Who was something silly? Uh? We did a lot of laughing together as workers.

We had a good, good tight crew, you know who who knew each other for I mean, we lost people, but that they held together mostly. Um. You had some really um you had for the time a number of female directors, right did We tried consciously to hire female directors and ads and stuff and to and to help on that you know front in terms of technology, which I don't know if you remember Karen Arthur. Of course we're going to be talking to her. Yes, she's in New York now as far as I know.

Last time I saw I was in New York. Yeah, well I think she'll be zooming in so I don't know exactly because but yeah, yeah, yeah, she was one of our regulars. So you mentioned you were talking about how you really never really watched the show from remembering correctly, So was that consistent across the work that you've done on film and television that you haven't gone back and after you finished it gone back and watched it pretty much? So, I mean in the in the we had a couple of move the handful of movies that I've done. Some directors have dailies in the olden days, um, which was kind of another communal activity, you know, come and have drinks after the thing and watch with the day's work.

Um. God, is such weird work because because there's no because I prefer the theater where you don't have to look at yourself when they look at you. And in fact, they're not even allowed to take your picture unless they're doing it on the sneak. Do you know? It has to live in the memory of you and the person you were telling the story too.

So the non communalness of this last couple of years, which is changing our business of law of gathering any place and gathering with comfort and ease and rather than suspicion and nervousness. And I'm wondering if if going to the movies are going to make you sick. Uh, that's something I'm kind of looking at from the margins because I'm not. But I have done enough work to see how different it is. I did this guy wants to know about about burn.

Notice I have to tell the reason I did it was to keep my pension open. My pension had faded. I called Jaron, I said, Charon, I got to make this much money to do my pension, get me a job. I mean, this is if you wanted about how it really works. Folks, you get to be old in the kick you to the curb.

Okay, So what was I going to tell you about something? Though? Theater and theater? And yeah, the recording of an experience so that you can look at it again and again is very different than having it have to last in your memory, right, and you could retrieve what you can. And I understand that.

You know, there are kids who are recording their teachers in college class instead of taking notes. Taking notes is one kind of recording, but recording the whole thing. And I did then go what and fall asleep over it? Again? I think it's an excuse for paying attention in many ways, and that makes me sound like an altakaca, which I am.

So I'm probably pretty far down that road too. I mean, as you knows, as cell phones of proliferated when I first was able to take pictures all the time, and as many as I wanted, I did that, I'm gotten to the point now where I almost never take pictures. Why if I want to see an experience and I want to look at what I want to look at and pay attention to what I want to look at, because I there is something about being in that moment, and that's one of the beauties of theater over over film. As much as I love film and television and filmed entertainment and it's lovely to see things again, it is I was wonderful to see great performances and all that stuff. I don't mean to be to be religious about it, but there I mean, I think there have been a number of actors who've talked about how they don't watch themselves.

They don't, so you're definitely not alone, and so I was just I was just curious if that was a you know, something consistently over your your your career that you've mostly done when it came to the finished product, you know, as opposed to daily's, which to me is a little different because you're seeing the work of the day and helping, you know, maybe be useful in terms of going forward. I don't know, but I have I think I have only like eight percent since it just enough, just enough? Yeah, not not not my favorite form of fun. Let's say that understandable. Sure, So let's move on to theater, because I want to talk about Gypsy and I want to talk about what theater has meant to you over the years, and because you've done a ton of theater.

I've done some, but I also had there was this distraction of of of my husband's career was out here. My career turned out to be about television and in a little bit of a way, you know, the movies where I couldn't pass the physical and uh to be a marine, which I remember the reading something about to me Moore saying that she was a hands on mom and she also spent eight hours a day in the gym. I thought, baby, how do you do that? Which eight in a row? How many hands?

I don't know, I just didn't it was it was made amused me, um, and I couldn't figure out that kind of juggling without a lifestyle that I didn't wasn't designed for, do you know, very bad at delegating responsibilities and asking other people to do my shop. You're right. So the theater and the movies. I've been very lucky. I've gotten to do some of each, do you know.

And and uh, but my yearnings for my dream time, as I said, was the theater, not the movies. Not to be on the silver screen, but to be but to be in you know, on the Broadway stage. And the music part was fun, and getting up for it was fun. And and uh, retraining again, uh you know, to make the cabarets was fun. And so I didn't.

I wasn't required to choose to say you do this to this. I was happier being a jack of all trades. And I think that was um that has changed. It used to be you were doing television, you did television, if you did movies. Movies.

Oh yeah, there was a lot more snoots us about it until um Laurence Olivier, I sold cameras, Oh god, until Larry got that ad for Polaroid. Yeah, there were in rows were made on what was the fancy stuff UM, and you know, UM where you earn the moneys and where they want you. UM. So the theater takes a different, a different kind of energy. I don't know.

I don't know that I could do the first act of Gypsy without falling over. You know, these days it's just you age out of that part of it, um, and the memory fades, and then you know, and then and the attrition of old age. But but hopefully I always wanted I was interested in in telling stories about women from the beginning to the end. I didn't like cutting out and leaving only the fifteen years between fifteen and thirty, that those were the only ones we looked at. No coming, very few coming of age things for girls, very few getting through the middle passage for girls, very after I can't make you babies for the girls, and very few um old wise hags.

To add a little bit of the female spirit to the over balance of male stories about um, how they figured out the world and how they run the world, and what is necessary to run the world. I'd have thought the other day, UM, about the Bible and the and the and the Constitution and all of the things that are rolling around since in our society right now, and the words the great words. And I thought to myself, I wanted to say to the founding fathers, who told you that story? And they'd say, oh, my dad. And I say, well, who told him that story?

And they said, oh, my dad, your dad told you that story. We've all been listening to the dad's stories for a long long time on the verge version of what's creative, what's nurturing? How do we get to be better people? You know? And um, so I thought there was room for the mom stories, particularly the mom, not the girlfriend and not the rival, for the for the job.

Well, it was such a big part of of of Lacy and and there there's a um again rewatching these There is a line that struck me from one of the episodes where where she and she constantly questioned whether she was being a good mom. But there was like a I thought I was stronger than this. I thought I was a good mother as a mother and a stepmother and a working person, and a thing like I was like, yes, we're constantly asking that question of ourselves. Yeah, serving all these masters and and and wondering if you're feeling them all. It was a condition and still is a condition of of of a lot of people.

And I know that stuff that men don't question themselves, that they don't blah blah blah. But but the running of everything and the being instructed that I'm a second class citizen officially now from the highest court in the land is painful to me and my daughters and their daughters and their sons. You see, if you can announce that somebody's a second class citizen officially again, you could pick take your next group. There's that you know, who do they come for next? There's that thing to say your personhood is in question, your citizenship is in question, your value to the communities in question.

So I'm Lacy had a hard time with that in the eighties and daily is having a hard time with that in the twenties. Yeah, you know, yeah, And it's you know, one of the reasons, you know, we sort of have this little saying like look back on our delete forward, and yet we're tripping sideways like in backwards and forwards like it's it seems like a bit of a hot mess right now. Yeah, well maybe it's always a hot mess. Just um, it's the idea that you and it's it applies to the acting game, right. It's the idea that that you've arrived someplace and now you're there, and that's it.

That's the end of the story. You've got to this platform and then you don't have And no, it's an ongoing thing. There's on back, the whole Evan flow and blah blah. That stuff is happening in our country and happens in the career. So when you get to something and say, Okay, this is it, this is what I do.

You know, I live in New York City and I do bad plays. Oh no, this is what I do. I go and sell out in Hollywood and make money and win prizes and get famous and that's you know, and that's and that's it for up. No, there's no arriving and how to be of service. I always wanted this to be a service job.

That's always brought up. Human beings tell stories to each other about themselves because they need it. Yeah, And more importantly than that for me was, you know, human beings come to the theater to watch actors because they've all been actors, all of them, even the starving ones, have pretended to be somebody else and to get themselves out of this condition and have played dress up and have you know, shown off, they all and they've all forgotten. We're the ones who remember how to how to how to play dress up and show off and be silly and and they come to get that from us, you know, but there's no there's no arrival at some law. We were so innocent that we thought we would change the laws, and we forgot they could be changed back as as a generation, I think our hippie dippy you know, against the war and all the stuff, we thought we're the only people that Marshton Washington.

Ever, we forgot all about them. Civil War soldiers have never got their pension, no sense, you know, and history shows that said, you have to go to go out again and again again again, have to keep fighting for your rights. You have to keep fighting constantly. And fighting is an interesting word, right we you know, striving, struggling, questioning, oh, challenging. I like all those.

My mama said to me one time, I hate all this stuff on TV. Everything's a fight. You're fighting, ring around the collar, and you're fighting in the yellow on your floor and you're fighting that you know, you're cold with this medicine and everything is pitched as a battle, and I thought that's really interesting. That's a hell of a long time ago. But yeah, the idea of m combat and aggression and struggle, I think we sort of run out of that's being useful.

Yeah, I think that anybody that thinks that war is a solution to anything is wrong. Yeah. Period got to figure something else. I got to do it. Yes, we gotta look for different ways.

And I think that's That's one of the reasons I wanted to do this podcast is I wanted to celebrate women and all ways and and also examine what our choice of language is. Like we we sort of question each show that we look at and we be like, Okay, is this a feminist show? What is a feminist show? Did they know they were making a feminist show? You know?

What does it mean to do that? Well? Mostly I've played women, oh girls, in my career. I did play an eight year old black boy in Moby Dick rehearsed in the Open and Denver, but that was unique, and mostly I've been asked to play to play women. So if I'm doing it, it's a feministe shows, it's about If it's about women, it might be about the women standing in the background.

But that will give you the you know, the story on the woman of that story. Um. The everything having to sit in its own category. This is for girls, this is for boys, This is for black people, this is for even folks. This is the the bitsing up and categorizing everything.

I oh, here, okay, here we go. I'll tell you my last idea Independence Day, fourth of July. Bombs bursting in air. Um, and I thought, I want a new vacation. I want a new holiday.

I want a holiday called Interdependence Day. On Interdependence Day, we celebrate everything that's alike about each other, everything, everything we have in common. Um. No show of military might, no uniforms, no banners, no anthems, um, no borders and and any nothing that smacks of anything that's like a badge or a symbol. Just um, Interdependence Day.

I'd like to see us move towards that instead of towards the the disaster of the twenty first century, which is tribalism, factions, my opinion, period. That's it. I gotta read this poem because I like to say vista vajin borskat um. This is a terrific poem if I can make it call, because this is what I'm doing now. What I'm doing now is is working with words.

And I have been for a while to try and career. You've been working with words. Well, I can't memorize them anymore, so I have to read them, you know. And I and I but I can still throw the poetry in the room, as we used to say. I'm going to this will betray me as a theater actor.

I'm going to go to the home of Alfred Lunt and Lynn Fontaine. Anybody raise your hand, never mind the greatest acting a couple of the early part of the twentieth century. Uh and yeah, they live in a place called Genesee Depot. I'm going to do a seminar for actors. They all have to have been in the business for more than twenty years, and I'm going to try and refresh their spirits in terms of and find out what they're up to and how it's been for them for these two years of masks.

And the name of my seminar is renewable energy. Time youshed my spirit life while you wait, but vista Vajimborska life while you weight performance without rehearsal body, without alterations, head, without premeditation. I know nothing of the role I play. I only know it's mine. I can't exchange it.

I have to guess on the spot just what this play is all about. Ill prepared for the privilege of living, I can barely keep up with the pace that the action demands. I improvise. Although I loathe improvisation, I trip at every step over my own ignorance. I can't conceal my hayseed manners.

My instincts are for hammy histrionics. Stage fright makes excuses for me, which humiliates me more. Extenuating circumstances strike me as cruel words and impulses. You can't take back stars. You'll never get counted, your character like a raincoat you button on the run.

The pitiful results of all this unexpectedness. If I could just rehearse one Wednesday in advance, or repeat a single Thursday that has passed. But here comes Friday with the script I haven't seen, is it fair? I ask my voice a little horse. Since I couldn't even clear my throat offstage, you'd be wrong to think that it's just a slap dash.

Quiz taken in makeshift accommodations. Oh no, I'm standing on the set and I see how strong it is. The props are surprisingly precise. The machine rotating the stage has been around even longer. The farthest galaxies have been turned on.

Oh no, there's no question. This must be the premiere, and whatever I do will become forever what I've done. That's awesome. That's awesome. Cheers than so, absolutely beautiful.

Oh all right, will you say the name again? Her name is Vistava w I s t a Wa Vistava Jimborska s z y m b o r s Ka. Please tell me you've done audio books. I have not. I failed completely.

Oh, this is a funny story. They approach he wants to do an audio book for new mothers. And it was a little book of contemplations, you know, so that you could read about. I said, if this new mother has ten minutes a day for herself, she's doing better. She don't need this book.

God bless her my experience. Damn, ten minutes. Don't go until the kid is thirty five. Let's be let's be serious. Okay, Oh my goodness, Oh wow, No, And I tried, I tried I listen.

I got so we were doing a long distance trip, and I got books for the girls to listen to her drawing my daughter back from school in Wisconsin, and I got a ruby D doing their Eyes Are Watching God? And I love ruby D and her and we had I worked for her and for Aussie and stuff, and I got it. The thing made me fall asleep driving and it was like it was like a soparate. I can't so, I say, I listen, but I can't. Very few books on tape move me.

I find it hard to listen to nonfiction audio books. Yeah, fiction audio books are I find it easier to listen to, maybe because it engages my imagination in a different way as opposed to trying to take eyes or watching God. Come on, that's it's hard to be food dud Uh what else Jim Dale? Do you have Jim Dale in your mind? Here?

He did all of the voices for the Harry Potter, something like three hundred nine voice. I thought, shows what kind of a thing is that. Those audiobooks are amazing, But he said he recorded them and managed to remind himself of who everybody was. You know, sometimes he'd lose it, that kind of see that kind of chiat is just amazing to me. Can I ask you really quick?

I know we got to wrap up the Bread Factory two part movie like such a charm, like how did how did that happen? That I did? Patrick Wang is a lovely genius filmmaker. You should see his film called in the Family yummy, and then there's one called The Grief of Others. But yeah, Bread Factory was a shot in under thirty days with two hundred and ten speaking parts.

It was a miracle but dancing and seeing carrying on. And I got to it through my friend, like happens a lot in my business of my friend Brian Murray gone from us now but a great actor, and he had done a piece for Patrick. And I'm trying to remember which shown. I think it's the first one in the Family, just lovely and the two that was such a brilliant like two movies that you shop both movies at the same stuffing back to back and a breath taking the amount of no time and a tiny and Janine Garofalo, funny people you know who just came because they were charmed by the material. Basically anyway it was it was where did you see it.

For God's sake. I found it streaming, because that's the great thing about streaming. I will, I will when we do our audiography, I will, I will because I have to look it up again. A bread Factory Part one and two. Yeah, it's about, you know, a local arts center that these two ladies run together and half forever and where kids can drawn, paint and sculpt and act and saying and carry on.

And it's it's being threatened by a consortium of modern entertainers who are pretty electronic any rate. Okay, so it's three questions. You can't name your own shows, but is there an eighties TV ladies driven TV show that resonated with you? And I can remind you of some to get you going, like Golden Girls and Murphy Brown, China Beach Designing Women, Bramton Steel Or were you too busy being a mom and making TV. I have never been a regular television watcher.

I used to watch my dad, which was kind of interesting because you know, he'd be on these and then there he'd be and he'd be being you know, Robert E. Lee, or he'd be being um Walt Whitman, or he'd be being well in those days when they did, he was always somebody. He played give us Barabbas. He played Barabbas in the You know, you played a lot of different stuff on a lot of different interesting longfoot and it was very strange to see your dad. I remember my brother Tim the first time he saw when he was ten years younger than I.

But the first time he saw my dad on TV and my dad was being threatened by bad guy, he freaked out. He couldn't truth and illusion. He couldn't make the thing. Even Daddy was sitting next to him, and he couldn't make. But so, I mean, I watched the Rookies regularly because I was home in the seventies.

I haven't owned a television set for about twenty years now. It's it's and I don't mean to be graceless about it. And Sharon tells me all the time there's such great things on TV, and you have to see these shows. I think I saw three sopranos, you know, I is there an actress? I like those actresses on Designing Women.

I thought they were terrific. And Sharon's in love with what's her face? Who's doing her new show? Jane Smart? Some wonderful actress, and occasionally it sounds like I sometimes feel I'm an ingrade about this, because I do love to go to the theater and I love it when it's good, and I love to see the actors afterwards and stuff.

But sorry, that's okay, I'm gonna be sorry about who Alextra Beck. I watched Alextra Beck faithfully and go to sleep after me. He's gone, Now what. I thought that would be a great job. I would love that job, but they wouldn't let an old lady do.

But I think I would like it be a trivia you know trivia? Yeah? Is there an actress out there that you wish you could work with or wish you had worked with? Um. I've enjoyed the ones I have worked with.

Their real famous. I when I was a kid and came out here. Yeah, Um, I was leaving New York with my three day old baby. She'd been born. Father her father he came back, couldn't he was out here earning the money to pay for her.

I. UM. And I was in the airport and there was this Um. It wasn't Playboy. It was another kind of men's magazine like that, less sex and more Gentleman's to Q, possibly GQ, and there was a picture of a woman on the cover, obviously naked.

The part we couldn't see it, but she was. She had her stuck in a big trash can, and so her legs and her arms and her you know, were hidden by this corrugated as ever they're called calvanized galvanized, a huge silver trash can and her long hair and her stuff and her and kind of posed. And the headline was the California Woman through at twenty one. And I was twenty one, I'd had my first baby. I was just turned twenty one, and I was going with my baby to California.

And I'm wondered, why am I going to California if I'm already through? And then I would sit and I had my baby, and we had our little thing, and we were joy did no money. George was working his the janitor to and uh, there'd be these fan magazines and they said, and here was the new actress, and here was the next new actress, and here was this other new actress. And I kept saying, not me, not me, No, not me again and and and I but I didn't want to be them. I didn't want to turn into Meryl Streep.

The Meryl Streep had already done that. You know. Uh, there's a little card that says, be yourself, everybody else is taken, you know, And and I did. I just wanted to be there with you know, in the mix, but I didn't want I wasn't envious to be somebody else or to admire somebody else. Not that I haven't had fun in the theater and had people move me and tell me stories.

But I just, um, I really don't have anybody that I wanted to be like yeah, or or wanted to have their career instead, you know. I mean everybody wanted Angela Lansbury's career, but you know, but I think a lot of people want your career. Well, they can't have it. You're very good. I almost did.

And second of all, it's taken. You know, there's no repeat. You can't put your foot in the same river twice. All that stuff, It's true. Yeah.

So I love seeing there being more stories for women. I'll tell you that. I love those. I love seeing those those girl cops on lapd thing and stuff. I mean, there were the cracks were being made.

I was aware of that but I didn't have time to sit down and watch it because I wasn't busy doing it, you know. Yeah, No, that's great, that's great. Last question, what's a moment that you've had that you felt like is this scripted? Am I living in a television moment right now? You've were on set all the time in television moments, but like one moment where you're like, that was so memorable or so like out of that, I felt like I was in a movie.

You mean, yeah, yeah, like a movie or a television moment of drama. Well, I'll tell you one of my brain things, because I don't I'm not quite sure to understand that. I remember George was doing The Rookies and was directing and got me a job. I got the in because I was married to the co star, and uh, we were doing a show. We'd been in school together from the time I was seventeen eighteen and you we were babies.

And we were doing a scene which he was also in. He was directing, but he was in it, and he came up and stood up next to me and I said, hey, baby, it's even me in the movies. And we had the best laugh. You know that I could tell you, um, there are moments when it's amazing that you're that you're on the stage, or you know on the stage. You can't let that awareness in too quickly or you'll not know what you say next.

Anyway, this work, it's good work. It's um, you know, lined up with other things to do for a living, it's not it's not a terrible thing to do. Thank you so much. Again. We cannot thank you enough for this.

And it's something you've been looking forward to and it's it's seated, I think our expectations. And thank you so much. Okay, cheers, So time to I think challenge us to come up with one word to describe our time now here in America or onearthed this first part of the twenty first century, this first part in this time period, the first part of the twenty first century. And then we forgot to come back to that to circle back before she left. So I'm gonna I'm gonna get in touch with her and find out what it was her word we think, we think, Kevin thinks it's tribalism, which might be right, and and now we have to come up with our own.

The first word that popped in my head was change. I just I think I found my word turmoil. Turmoil because from the beginning, first we had nine to eleven thousand and one, we're still dealing with ramifications of that insanity. We had the historic election of Barack Obama, followed by the kind of what's the word I'm looking for, obstruction from the right that I don't think any of us have experienced in our lifetimes. Maybe there have been periods in the history of our country where similar things have happened, but this is a whole taken to our It was a level and it's only gotten continued to get worse from there.

The fact that we went from Barack Obama, in my mind, one of the best presidents, one of the best men that's ever been president of the United States, to arguably the worst person that has ever been put into that job, the worst kind of person that ever could have or should have. This is not about ideology. This is about this person and that person. Because I refused to say the name, We're not going to speak that name. That person continues to not only be an effective stir, but that there are still so many people who are who have been brainwashed into believing and to sustaining lies and distortions that he created in his time and office.

He built a cult on hate and vitriol and fear and and division. Yeah, and continues to work to divide the country. Yeah. And sometimes I'm like, oh, of course, that's who was nominated by a faction of people who want to punish, Like, Oh, yeah, you're not gonna have a woman president. We're going to give you the worst of men.

That's exactly what happened. Oh my gosh, we will take the worst of men over any woman as a payback. Oh my god, Sharon just broke her paper clip. That's how though. That's how wild we're getting here.

Okay, all right, have you come up with your word? Well, I was the first word was changed, but it wasn't enough, and I think, uh, turmoil is indeed. And you also reminded me that the twenty first century started twenty years ago. So I'm also going to say opportunity. It's an opportunity for turmoil and crisis, and it's an opportunity we'll change.

And we've seen both of those in the last twenty years, and we'll see and we know we're not at the end of this We're not at the end of COVID. We're not at the end of the chaos of the result of the last six years in politics, the last twenty years in paulitics. We are also in the middle of this enormous technology change and a speed of information that's unprecedented and that we're not built for right. Speed of information and disinformation. Yes, and it's a crisis, but it is also an opportunity.

It is we are in this. I mean, I think the word that I can't come up with right now because my brain isn't working is something that represents both of those well, because you're right, there always is opportunity in chaos and disruption. There's opportunity there. It's just a question do you seize that opportunity to make things better? Do you know whether it be something big like the things we've been discussing, or even in near life.

It's hard to see it sometimes it's hard to believe that it's there, but it is there, It can be there. And it's not even so much about the silver lining. It's about when things are breaking apart, it is a moment to rebuild them in a new way and to decide to do things differently. So I think that question, which again is sort of resonating from all of the stuff we talked about today, which is how did we get here? Right?

That's sort of we're looking back to be like, how do we get here? And then how do we get out of here? I think it's one of the other questions, and it's, you know, again very serious conversation for mostly a light podcast. But the undercurrent of everything right now is a struggle to define the new way we are going to be and because there is opportunity in these crises, because we can recognize things and name them in ways we couldn't. We can recognize that our healthcare system in America is is not appropriate to the situation.

It needs to be different. We can recognize that our involvement in government has to be more for the people, by the people, and of the people. We can recognize that these things that are breaking down are things that we can rebuild in a new way of looking at things. I don't think anybody is interested in doing the same thing. I'm seeing it in theater, you know, I'm seeing people take power from their own place that is often a disenfranchise place, but there's now saying I don't care, We're now going to unionize.

I don't care. We're now going to demand not only these rights back, but more rights. And even though there's a lot of work to divide us into these factions, there's a lot of people that are saying, no, more people in my history than I remember ever are activated, are engaged, are paying attention, and with that attention comes the opportunity. And I again I'm seeing really exciting people running for office and really like amazing people stepping up and finding their voice in their community in a way that I think is not what I saw happen in the eighties when things were falling apart and in the nineties when people were sort of ignoring that things had fell apart anyway, But we got into a serious vein because I think I'm still searching for my word.

But if I don't, I'm just going to say opportunity, because it's also an opportunity for bad forces, right, So it's an opportunity for everybody. And the question is is which opportunities are we going to take advantage of, and which opportunities are we going to demand change for good? We'll see. Now it's your turn. Eighties TV Ladies listeners, how would you answer Time Daily's request?

What is your word? What one word describes our time now here in the twenty first centuries so far? Send us your thoughts and your word to Eighties TV Ladies at gmail dot com, or contact us through our website or on social media. I don't know, Sharon Turmoil is a pretty good one, sadly, yes, I think so. And now it's time for our audioography for websites.

First, I want to let you know that you can go to the official Facebook page for Cagney and Lacy Facebook dot com, Slashcagney and Lacy. There is a Facebook page for Time Daily, Time Daily Online, Facebook dot com slash Time Daily Online. You can find The Bread Factory Part one and Part two at various streaming sites. You can stream it for free using your library card or university login Atcanopy dot com. That's ka n opy dot com, and that's for thousands of movies.

You can also or buy it on Apple TV. It was available on Amazon. It's currently only available through fandoor on Amazon right now. What's fandor? I don't know.

It's one of those new things we want to shout out our friends at Rainbow Remix Podcast, South Florida's singer rocker JD Danner and podcaster Denise Warner invited us onto their show, which features LGBTQ lifestyle, news, music, arts, media, mixology, and so much more. They are delightful and they just loved our show and reached out to us. They had us on their podcast to talk about eighties TV ladies, eighties television and why we started this podcast. Denise and JD are delightful and we are going to have them on in a future episode to talk more about queer representation in eighties television and seventies and nineties. You know at Slim Pickens, I realized which was a little disheartening but a very vital part of television history.

Herstory and all of us to check out Rainbow Remix Podcast. A link will be in our audiography, all right. So the books that I'm going to call out today are Remembering Cagney and Lacy with Sharon Gless and Time Daily by Brian McFadden. And I'm also going to shout out the book that Time Daily read to us from. It's called Poems New and Collected.

And I'm going to mispronounce this name, this Tava Zimborska. It is the winner of the Nobel Prize for Literature. And I'm going to run out and get it right now and then dream of Time Daily reading them all to me. And the last book I'm going to shout out today is New Handbook for a Post Row America by Robin Marty. It's very helpful.

Oh my gosh, thank you so much to our Patreon supporters. Thank you, Michael Ann and Kate y'all are awesome. If you want to shout out on the show, join our Patreon at patreon dot com slash eighties TV ladies. You can get all sorts of cool stuff, but you also can just support us and support us making more episodes. Support at any level is most welcome, and listeners of any kind are most welcome, and we're grateful to you all.

Next episode we have Cagney herself, the incredible Sharon Glass. I can't wait. Once again, we're just like trifecting. I'm just thrilled that we have another Sharon on the show. There aren't too many of us out there, it seems.

It was funny during this episode, Time Daily kept saying, well Sharon says this. I was like, when did they have that conversation? And then I realized she was talking about Sharon Glass because they're all friends and stuff. It was a little confusing for me too. Occasionally, even though I knew that she was not talking about me, there was a moment where my brain thought, you know, when she mentioned Sharon, of course I'm the only Sharon in the room.

Someday we're going to get you and Sharon Glass in the room together. That'll be very fantastic and probably at times very confusing. Too many Sharons, we hope Eighties TV Ladies springs you joy and laughter and lots of fabulous new and old shows to watch, all of which will lead us forward toward being amazing ladies of the twenty first century. Like Time Daily, I want to be Time Lady, but she won't let us because she's Time Daddy and so pretty to the city