Stuntwoman and Living Legend Debbie Evans

By Hello, I'm Susan Lambert HadAM and I'm Sharon Johnson. Welcome to the Fabulous Eighties TV Ladies Podcasts, where we look at ladies driven television from the nineteen eighties decade. We hope you enjoy today's show. We have been chasing our next guest all around the world to get a chance to talk to her. She has been super busy working on everything from The Batman to Fast X AKA Fast and The Furious Ten.

Just as women were stepping into new roles in the seventies and eighties in front of the camera, they were doing the same behind the camera and in her case, behind the wheel. Today we will be talking with one of the top stunt women and stunt drivers in the world, Debbie Evans. Love it now. I have always been fascinated by stunts since I was a kid. I felt like, not really athletic, but kind of sporty in my youth.

I've ridden a horse or two in my day. Fancy myself a fairly competent driver, and I actually learned how to throw a punch. What about you, sharing, are you a sporty stunty? I have never considered myself sporty or athletic. I always felt that I had underdeveloped athletic ability.

But as I'm afraid of heights and I'm claustrophobic, plus I have a low pain threshold, stunts was probably not for me in my youth's. I could have pulled off the small stuff, but I would not be a very good stunt woman, pain being one of the things I don't like that much in life, and I do not like heights, more so now than ever. And unless it's on fire, I would not willingly jump out of a plane. And I think that's one of the perfectly good, perfect airplane. Why would you jump out of that?

And I think that if you are a person that would jump out of an airplane, then you could possibly be a stunt person. If you are not, then you are in the category that is not really a stunt person. So sharing they call you up to the show, I say, we need you for some stunts, but here you get to pick your style. Cars, fights or falls. Oh, it's cars all the way.

I know how to drive a car. I don't know how to maybe flip it or anything, but at least I know how to drive a car. And I'd like to think that they wouldn't make me drive it off the cliff or something. So yeah, I definitely picked cars. Fights.

I have never been in a fight. I don't want to ever be in a fight. I don't know that I could even pretend. And I'm certainly not falling off of anything. Yeah, I'm not falling either.

I think again, I could pull myself out of a skid pretty well. But I actually think that I would like doing fights more, particularly if they were controlled. You know, I took a little martial arts, not much, but a little bit because I wrote writing action movies for a while and I felt I needed to know how to do that so that that would be fun. But I think in the real world I wouldn't be able to do it. But in this magical podcasting world, that's what I would pick.

Melissa, do you have a choice? Yes, cars, fights or falls? Cars? Well, thank goodness, because Debbie Evans Levitt is a car stunt person and she does many thanks We're going to hear all about it today, and she is a thankfully a much braver woman than us. Debbie's appeared as a stunt driver and stunt performer in over three hundred that's right, three hundred movies and TV shows.

She has seven Taurus World Stunt Awards, has been inducted into the Motorcyclist Hall of Fame and the Hollywood Stuntman's Hall of Fame. In the Motorcycle and Motorsports Trial world, she competed successfully at the national and world championship events and trials, sometimes as the only woman. And as you'll hear later in our podcast, a very big star called her, to her face, a living legend. That's our guest today. Some of her most famous stunts include doubling Trinity for the Matrix Reloaded Motorcycle Freeway Chase, and her work on The Fast and the Furious franchise.

Has mentioned earlier she just finished working on Fast ten or whatever the hell it's called. I'm gonna call it FX. She has doubled Michelle Rodriguez, Angelina Jolie, Carrie, Anne Moss, Linda Hamilton, Linda Carter, and the list goes on and on. We are so happy to have you on the show today. Welcome Debbie Evans to eighties TV ladies.

Thank you so much, it's good to be here. Before we go back a little bit, let's start with what's going on with you today. We know you just got back from working on Fast and the Furious ten, and wondered what you were doing on the show and what if anything, understanding that there are a lot of things you probably can't talk about, what if anything you can tell us about what you were doing on the shoot? I was stunt driving, and we always have a lot of fun, and it's a lot of the same people that I've known for years that we trust, and we worked together really well as a team. And I was in England and Portugal, and so I've been to England many times, but Portugal I had never been there, and so that was really nice.

I really enjoyed Portugal. I can't really tell you about much of anything because if I did, they'd have to kill me and we can't have that. No. All right, So, how many of The Fast and the Furious have you worked on? All but two?

All but two? Yeah? I one, two, three, six, seven, eight, nine, and ten. Wow, I can talk about those. Yeah.

Well, we're gonna come back around. But actually, as you mentioned, there's a number of the crew that have worked with you on many of the movies, So in that regard, it sounds like it might be a little like network series television, where you've got a group of people you're working with over the course of a season or are then case it's a course of a number of years. Perhaps, Yeah, we have a stunt team that does a lot of the second unit, which is the action unit where we take off and do all the car work. So and we've been working together for years. But before that, Fashion and Furious one was a different stunt coordinator, and then two and three were the same coordinator, and then six is where Spiro Rosado Syncrew came in.

All of us. But I worked for a lot of different people, so I was doubling all the girls that were driving pretty much. And Michelle Rodriguez sometimes on particular movies, for sure, or yeah, on Fashion and Furious the Fast franchise, I've doubled her driving. So it was really cool. The first time we worked together.

She was all excited about the driving stuff. And I came sliding in, you know, to the little sandwich shop and you know, little angle. She goes, she comes over, she goes, that is so cool. I wish I could do that. I thought when I was going to be an actor, I was going to get to do what you're doing.

So we got a joke about that off and on through the years because I know that more and more they're doing more and more green screen, so it's not even out on location, and I get to do all the fun stuff, you know, that is the fun stuff. And so my question is you're driving for the shoot and all that kind of stuff, you're in Portugal, do you then take one of the cars out and just go driving around Portugal? No, on your off day? Oh no, no, no no, that would be a no no. I would be on a plane back to La all right.

Maybe not one of their cars. But the thing is is all all these great cars I get to drive. If I had them, I wouldn't drive them like that because I'd have to pay the insurance and I'd worry about scratching them and I'd worry about it somebody's stealing them and all that. So it's really nice. I've driven cars, amazing cars.

I drove, uh, the Corvette Stingray, the Red One Wow, and um, the Rally Fighter and the Nova and nine and um, you know, just all different cool cars. And the coolest one I've ever got to drive is the Enzo Ferrari. All Right, well, yeah, that even a different movie. What movie was what movie was that on? A movie called Redline?

Okay, all right, and I like cars, but I'm not. I don't know a lot about cars. And I think they even put me in as doubling. I don't know who I was driving for. I think it was a guy.

Right, So let's dump it so well that maybe just put in get in and do that. Let's let's talk about real quick, just you know, before we get into the mean of this. Um, can you break down like the stunt sort of credits and world, so when you talk about stunt driving versus stunt coordinating versus all that stuff, that we understand that our listeners understand what those mean. Okay, Um, A stunt performer, Uh, That's how I started out, was just a general stunt performer. I did started in motorcycling, and then I started you know, I was really good at cars because of the motorcycling, so I started doing that as well.

But I was an athlete too, so I learned fights and falls and getting hit by cars and falling downstairs and all that stuff. So stunt performer needs to know a lot of different things so that when you're doubling somebody, you don't have to be constantly replacing the double with somebody else who can do the other skill. So that's how I got my start. And there are specialties though, like some people are really good at fights and you know, do all the flipping and all that kind of stuff, and some are gymnasts and you know, really good on wires, and so you kind of usually have a specialty. And then then there's a stunt coordinator who is always a stunt performer who has gone on to do the coordinating part of it.

And so what they do is they're more production now. They go in to production meetings, breakdown scripts, go on on scouts, budget scripts for the stunt work, and then they call and see if people are available, knowing who can do what skills and what's maybe sometimes they need a perfect body double, sometimes that you know, it's like a facial double, depending on what the actor is going to be doing, and then other times it's more about just skills, and sometimes you can find both that's perfect double with the skills, So that's kind of how it works. And then a lot of them go on to second unit directing, which is basically a second unit is you have your first unit, which is all the actors and everything, and then the second unit or the action unit will go out and get a whole bunch of stunt people and you know, we'll just film the action parts of it.

And every once in a while we have one of the stars come and just for a day or two to get a few pieces to tie them in. Now, we would do a lot of dots on our faces, I was going to say, and now there's so many special effects to help that tie in that they're just like, Okay, go get crazy and come back and give us all your footage. Yeah, and then there will people's faces onto you. Yeah. They do check, you know, to see with production.

You know, you know, first unit, the first unit directors to see if he's liking what's going on. And they have not so much dailies anymore like they used to, you know, where you'd you'd go into the screening room and you'd see the dailies in the screening room or the screening trailer. Um. Now it's everything's pretty much instant with all of the new technology and everything, so they can. In fact, one show that I worked on not that long ago, they had the director in England and I was in Chicago.

Wow, was that the Batman they were directing? Yeah? Wow, So it's kind of cool the first time you found yourself with the dots on your face doing doing your stunts and then saw the finished product. What was that like? Did you how did you feel or how did how did that seem when you when you got to see um, the finished product?

Um, you mean with the dots on the face the face removal in right, so they've you've done it and they've now replaced your face with a lot of times they don't even bother because they can't see very well inside the car. And so there's a lot of times where I've seen me, I'm going, that's me, you know. But every once in a while they will use it if it's like a a closer shot that they really want to make sure that it looks like the actress is driving. So yeah, it's kind of weird, I would imagine. Yeah, But a lot of times I'll see just they'll they'll slightly blur the windshield, oh yeah.

And sometimes sometimes they tint the windshield and the side windows when there's doubles inside. Wow, And most people don't even notice it. Well, it goes by so fast. It's yeah, exactly, it's fasts and it's and it's also like you know, it's the way movies work because the like you just perceived that someone's in the same place that you just saw them, so you assume they're in the car, right, you just saw them driving editing correct, the magic of editing. I was just gonna say, stunts have gotten so sophisticated, and now there's all this like pre previous and also just literally they're walking around with their iPhone filming the whole scene during rehearsal.

You can like film these rehearsals and they're very elaborate. They're adding in like you know, not the final effects, but you can add in visual effects very easily now the rough ones, yes, and so you can really pre visualize so many aspects of the stunts that I think it allows stunts to get more and more and more sophisticated. Yeah or not. I personally feel like there's too much CGI computer generated images because a lot of times you lose the people, you lose the human element, and you don't know what's real and or you know what real people and what's not. So I remember I worked on Superman was it Superman Returns with mister Freeze.

I doubled Alicia Silverstone And when I went to see the movie, there was so much CGI in there. I really didn't even care about the characters. Well, we were saying that in the eighties television and n eighties movies, locations and car stunts were how you showed that you were spending money on your your you know, your your show and impressing your audience. Well, you know, Remington Steel was really fun because I did I did a lot of things, and I did car stuff on it. Yes, but I doubled Stephanie doing pretty much everything.

And so what years did you work on the show? I think I came in on the end of this second or the third start of the third season. Yeah. So um. They had so many amazing crazy stunts and it made it so interesting.

I remember jumping out of a burning building with a guy and we were hitting the same airbag. Oh my god. I grabbed his belt and tried to hold myself in. He jumped quicker than I did, you know, and he started to fall faster than Nie. So I just pulled myself in with a belt and then we just rolled off to the side and landed in the air bag.

And another time I was in a wedding dress on roller skates, and I don't think I was I was doubling somebody else at that particular time. But anyway, I want to watch all those episodes. And now I was skating in downtown LA. This is the same episode I think that we jumped out of the building, but skating down uh some of the streets in downtown LA and then down underneath six Dge down into the wash, and they built a ramp for me so that when I hit the ramp I could disappear. They put some pads down at the bottom, so I just kind of jumped and then disappeared and they didn't see me.

And so then the next time they saw me, I was on a little Kawasaki eighty motorcycle with the wedding dress and the skates on, riding the motorcycle in the center of the canal where all the water is. That is fantastic. I'm gonna go find that episode. Who thinks of stuff like that? It just was so much fun.

It was a very a lot of stunts and a lot where it really did look like they were and you know, we talked with Stephanie about that. She was doing some of the less super dangerous stuff. Yes, Stephanie is very athletic and very gifted physically. She's good, and so I would rehearse a lot of things and then you know, clue her into things that maybe you know she should look out for or whatever. But she would do a lot of it.

You know, I did quite a bit too, But you know, she was good. In fact, there were certain times when I had to run for her, which she didn't like at all. She was really upset when that would happen. So but you know, because she likes her performance. And I had to learn how to move like Stephanie because she's into theater and she's grown up that way and a dancer and all that.

And so I had to learn to point my toes out like this, and when I'd run around the corner, I had to mimic her. And so that's part of the art of doing stunts as well. You have to watch your actor or actress and just try and make it as seamless as possible. And so when she would run around the corner, she would throw her arms out like this. So so I had to throw my arms out like that run around the corner.

It was awesome. That is so awesome because it's it's you are performing as that actor, and that feels like a different skill on top of doing the stunt. Yes, you know, acting and stunts go hand in hand. If you don't do the acting, the stunt look stupid. You know, not all the time, but most of the time.

There's some people that are so good, you know, as far as physical doubles to their actors, that their actor takes them everywhere they go. How did you end up being called up for reming Concealed? Do you remember? Um, I just got a call from Ernie or Sadi, who was the stunt coordinator, and he said, um, I think you'd make a good double for Stephanie, So can you come down and you know, meet me and I'll get a look and see. And so I think the first thing I did was I had to run across the top of a like a staircase, and then the stair were going down and I had to throw myself over the rail halfway down and hit like a bench at the bottom.

And I did it perfectly, and and I just kept working from there. That's amazing and you were so you were doing all of her physical stunts as well as the driving stunts for her. That's correct. Yeah. The only thing I didn't do was there was a show that was circus, and I don't do circus stuff, so I didn't do that.

One funny story is Stephanie's wardrobe was an a line skirt, you know, really tight around the knees. And so I come running and I have to run upstairs. So I come running, do do my turn? Definitely turn? Yeah, and then I go for the first step and it pulls my other leg out from underneath me and I just did a flatback right on the ground that was laying there laughing, going this is crazy.

So it wasn't so hard to run in the high heels, it was hard to run in the skirt. Yeah. Well, you know, I think about it. Your legs are like this, the skirts around your knees, and all you can do is this. Yeah.

And then then when I went like that, just went, oh my god. So what was your process for you were mentioning about learning how you know Stephanie ran and all that was it through watching her previous episodes on tape. For watching her on the set that she was as she was working, or some combination of the two. Watching on set. A lot of what we do is we stand there and watch our actress move.

And we didn't even have playback then, you know, so it was all about did you get it? Did you get the shot to the to the camera operator? Yeah, I got it, or maybe we needed another one. I'm not sure. Yeah, So things are very different now because you can just watch playback.

Ernie or Saudi actually used me on a lot of different shows, and he was running a lot of different shows and so he actually taught me how to stunt coordinate as well. So I would read the script, break it down, budget and all with his supervision and everything, and then help coordinate different sequences and things like that. So it was really a good experience. But I have at that time, I had just one son and a husband, and so I realized how time intensive that all is because you're on call twenty four to seven, and if it rains and you have everything planned for outside the next day, you have to cancel everybody and then go to cover set and hire a whole new group of people for the fight or whatever.

You know, So, um, it's your life is not your own, and I like going home and actually being able to be present with my family. So I did a little bit of it for a while, and then I realized that that just wasn't what I wanted to be doing. And plus I enjoy performing so much more well. And you're clearly so good at it, right, Like it's one of those things you know, you love to move up, but sometimes you want to keep your hands in, keep your exactly the game. I see a lot of coordinators.

They'll go and work for other people when they're not working coordinating, But I miss it. If I'm not doing it, I miss it. Yeah, you seem very ready. So we I got to see the Stuntwoman documentary. Okay, you just seem like you show up on a motorcycle everywhere you go and that you're just it's nothing.

It's it's like walking for you to get on a motorcycle and do anything on that. Yeah, it's funny. I was teaching someone how to ride on a show, and so I was there were a bunch of other stunt guys around, and I'd get on the bike and warm it up. So it wasn't, you know, just bogging. When she got on it and all that, and so I'm I get on and I'm doing this and that, wheeling sliding, and somebody came over to me and goes, I just love watching you ride.

You have the biggest smile in the whole world, and you just so are so natural on it. I said, it was part of me. You know, I've been riding since I was six years old. All right, so let's go back. I want to take you back in time.

You're a kid growing up in Lakewood, California. Your dad is a motorcycle trial rider, and you want to ride motorcycles. He actually taught me when I was six, and he had a little mini bike with a Suzuki one hundred engine in it. So it was like this little, tiny, tiny frame with a pretty big engine for something like that. And you know, I was only six years old and we didn't have helmets and stuff like that.

Well, he was riding around an area where they were building a freeway entrance and so there was a big pile of cement and rebar. So when he put me on, the first thing I did was go craft right into it, and I was crying, and he got me up, dusted me off, and said get on again, because if you don't, you'll never you'll never ever do it again. And so I did. I was crying. But then in like he said, five minutes, I had just had an ear ear garrin and I was having a blast.

Oh my god. And so your family was all into motorcycles or just your dad, Like, how was your mom like, yeah, go go crash into that rebar. No, my mom didn't know what he was doing, and if she had, she would have been very upset. So but then we started going camping and riding. He got a regular motorcycle, and you know, we all got motorcycles, and my mom rode, I think, to please my dad.

I don't think she really loved it, but she liked going camping and talking to her friends and playing cards. And I just rode. From the time we got there till the time we had to go to bed, I was on the motorcycle the entire time. They'd have to grab me and make me have lunch. So and so when did you start competing?

And can you tell us a little bit again for those of us that don't know anything about anything, like what it is to be a trial motorcycle rider. Okay, I started competing when I was nine in trials, and trials is a motorcycle event where you lose points for putting your feet down, so you go over obstacles. You don't really go fast, but if you go too slow it doesn't work either. So there's tight turns and there's ravines and rocks and logs that you go over, and as you progress, the obstacles get bigger and bigger. So I used to ride, but I didn't compete till I was nine.

So he got me a oh this is a great story. Christmas came and he had this little box underneath this Christmas treet. It was about that big, you know, kind of square, and I opened it and it was a shift lever, and I went, I got a motorcycle. So he took me out to the garage and he had gone to the junkyard and bought a Honda fifty five step through that was all in pieces, and somebody had spray paid in everything blue, including the cases and the rims and everything. So we spent months and months rebuilding this thing in the garage and I remember being on that wire wheel with my goggles, just you know, getting all that paint off of everything.

It seemed like an eternity. But I got the motorcycle when I was eight, but we finished it when I was nine. So the little red Honda step through and back then they didn't have all the little motorcycles for kids, so he figured that I would be able to step through and then jump up to the seat, and so it was way big for you. Yeah, yeah, well at least it had the you know, cut out, so I could at least touch the ground, you know when I jumped down. Yeah, that is fantastic.

And then you start competing. And there's a great picture I found online of you as a kid. You're on the motorcycle and sort of behind you are these women that look like nineteen fifty, these housewives, And did you know that the picture that I'm talking about I'm gonna go find I'm gonna go find it, see if we can find it is the one where I have a little half helmet and my tongue was sticking out maybe maybe. Yeah, that's a familiar pose for a lot of the early shots of you. You're really concentrated.

Oh yeah, I'm concentrated a lot. And it was funny because people used to tell me you're gonna bite your tongue off. I haven't done it yet. Yeah. That was in my first time in cycle news.

I was eleven years old and I was doing a trial's turn and they took a picture of me and put it in there. Yeah. But we we wrote trials for a while, and we'd go camping and riding about every other weekend, not summertime, of course, because it was too hot. And then we'd water ski in this summertime. And then my dad got interested in desert in Duros and so he got a factory ride with Osa and then Montessa.

So he rode for Osa for several years, and then he rode for Montessa. I started writing in Duros with him and doing really well. But in Duros you have to time keep, so you go really fast, and then you have to figure out so that you come into each check right on the minute. And I hated that part because I loved the going as fast as you can. But when we would get to the part where we had to time keep and he'd slow it down do the twenty eight mile an hour average, I would be like going up on the sides of the hills and get over here.

You're going to run out of gas. But I would have liked desert racing, I think. But you know, if you do what your family does. Yeah, so in your teens, you end up you're like one of the best motorcycle writers in the world. Yeah.

Well, when I always loved trials because trials you could pick an obstacle that you couldn't do and just try it over and over and over again until you finally got it. And you didn't need a race against anybody. It was just a personal goal, the goals that you would set. And so I would work and work and work until I get it. And then I'd get it once and then you know, I wouldn't be able to do it.

Then maybe three more times I'd get it, and then pretty soon I'm doing it all the time. So I really enjoyed trials. So I begged my dad to go back and I did really well, and so Yamaha gave me a factory sponsored ride at age fifteen. Wow, And then I met my husband. When I was in high school, they said I was sent up to a trial school in northern California and they wanted me to teach the following year.

That would I would be out of high school. Then, and so I was stuck in the amateur class, which was just before the top class, which was expert. And so I learned what I was doing wrong from him because he was he was three time national champion and rode for a company called Bull Taco, a Spanish company, And so I came back from the one school just to try it out, and I immediately like a three I think it was two rides. I can't I transferred to expert. So I was the first woman expert in the entire country.

So then we went up and taught the school, and then we went and rode nationals after I got out of high school and stuff, and we went all over the country, and I was twenty seventh in the nation against all guys. I was going to say, were there other women competing? No? No, there was one that they put up in Michigan because they were jealous, you know, and they're going, well, we have a girl too, and she didn't make it past the first lap, I don't think. So you're the only woman and you're like twenty seven in the States.

And did you the top class? Yeah? Top class, Like were you accepted? Was it? You know?

Clearly you're soon to be husband or going to someday be husband. Was helpful and accepted you and said you're awesome. Yeah, I I was. I was pretty much accepted, and when I wasn't, I just would try and prove them wrong and not not be a jerk about it, you know, And and so that seemed to work for me. Um.

I grew up playing with boys because they played all the fun stuff, you know, running, jumping, climbing, falling, fighting on the stuff. And so to me, it wasn't hard for me most of the time. Every once in a while there would be something, but it really wasn't hard, and people accepted me and because you loved it, like it was clearly something that you you know, you talk about that persistence of I didn't get it and then one time I get it, and then I wouldn't get it again, and like that's that's the persistence of success, right, You just keep working at you get it right. I have an example of that. My dad learned to write a unicycle and it took him a long time.

And so when I was eleven, I really wanted a unicycle for Christmas, and he said, no, you're not. It's going to take you forever. You're not going to be able to do it. No, no, no, And I begged him and begged him and begged him. So I got the unicycle and the next day he had to go to work, and yeah, I was out there at six o'clock in the morning on the unicycle on the grass because I didn't want to wreck the seat.

I didn't want it to get all torn up. And we had an eve that came down from the roof and I hang on to that, and then i'd get a half a pedal, and then you know, three quarters of a pedal, and then back to a half. And I just kept trying and trying and trying. So when he came home from work, I was riding down the street to meet him. He couldn't believe it.

Yeah, see dad, Yeah, oh my god. So I was also reading about the Scottish sixth Day Trial. Yes, I had to educate myself on the motorcycle trial world, at least a little bit, because I didn't know about it. Can you tell us a little bit about the Scottish sixth Day Trial? And in nineteen seventy eight, you're nineteen years old and you go to compete in it.

Yeah, well, I was actually twenty. Okay. My husband likes to fudge a little bit on the age. He's the writer. He's making it sound real good.

Okay, twenty Yeah, yeah, I was at the old age of twenty and I went over there by myself. Actually it was funny because a friend of ours that was into promoting and all that kind of stuff he was we were talking and he goes, have you ever thought of writing the Scottish Six Days? And I'd always like secretly dreamed about doing it. Something. What is the Scottish six Days?

It's a six days motorcycle trials and it's not the six Days and Dureau event. It's the six Days Trials event. I was doing the obstacles. Yeah, well it's it's a lot of creek beds and rocks and very long loops, like um, eighty miles a day, sometimes one hundred miles. I didn't know how I was going to make it happen.

And he said, well, I think you should go. You should talk to Yamaha and I will talk to somebody I know in England who can maybe sponsor you and put you up. And then he put something in Cycle News, which is a weekly paper for motorcycle riding that I was going to go to the Scottish six days, and I needed help paying for things, and so people started giving me donations and that was the coolest thing ever. I just never ever thought that they would support me like that, and so it was really really rewarding. And when I did go over there, I went over there by myself.

Of course, we didn't have wheels on suitcases then, and so I'm dragging this suitcase full of motorcycle parts and my handlebars in one hand and attire in the other. I stayed in London three days by myself because I figured, heck, if I'm going to England, I'm gonna go see something. So I got myself a bridge trail pass and and I was like a little mole. I'd go in the underground and then pop up and go look around and see what was there. And then I got back down because I'd never ever been on a subway or two before, you know.

And I took a train up to Hall where my sponsor was. We went to pick up some leathers for me, some writing gear, and there were two older brit guys that were kind of overweight, and they stood there and they looked at me, and they looked me up and down, which was not comfortable at all. And then they started betting on which day I would quit. I'll bet you two quid, she'll quit by Monday. Well, or Tuesday.

I'll give you two quids. She'll quit on Wednesday, you know. And it's like I could feel the steam coming out of my ears, but I just bit my lip and didn't say a word. And you know what, those two guys they came to me midway through the event and apologized. Awesome.

And then there was also a journalist that went off on, oh, there's this young lady coming from California, and it's another brand of American BALI who really? Who? And so he actually put a retraction in the paper and said how well I did and how he was so wrong. Were there many other women in the trial that year other than you? Were you the only one?

I was the only one? Oh? Wow? And there hadn't been a woman in that trial for a while, and it had gotten really hard, so I'm sure they thought that a woman couldn't do it. There were two hundred and eighty entries.

I'm not sure all two hundred and eighty were there, but I was one hundred and ninth overall, and I was fourth in the one under two one hundred class, So I was on one hundred seventy five, which is a very underpowered bike for that, but it was more nimble and easier for me to push around, and you know, if you have to put your feet down and push really hard, it was much easier for me to maneuver and had more ground clearance. So the ground clearances for when you're going over rocks and logs, you're not scraping on everything. So that's why I chose that bike. Wow, all right, So how did you end up working in the movies and television? I started working in the movies.

It was funny because I was signed up for my second year of junior college and I went and rode the Nationals all summer. And before I went to bride the Nationals, I saw this TV show and it was clearly a guy on a motorcycle that was supposed to be a girl. His neck was this wide and his shoulders were this wide, and he was doing a doughnut on a dirt bike. And I'm going, I could do that, Why, thank you? I had to do that and so I started asking around how to get in, but back then you had to either have a Screen Actors Guild card to get in, or you had to know somebody who could get you a Screen Actors Guild card, and I didn't have either.

So I went and wrote the nationals and started my second year of junior college, and all of a sudden the phone rang and this stunt coordinator, Geane Hartline, who was a flat track racer. He was friends with my dad's sponsor since my dad was writing for Montesa at the time, and the two of them had raced together, and so he said, I really need this girl who can do all this writing and jump a ravine and do this stuff. And there's just nobody that's that good in the business right now. And he goes, we'll just call Debbie. And so the phone rang and I went and tried out, and they liked what I did.

These were old bikes with a lot of heavy metal stuff on the front and the back, so they were difficult to ride, but I didn't have any trouble, and so I started working on the show and I was a perfect double for the girl. It was cool because it was kind of like stunt school for me because it was maybe a week here, a week there, a couple days here, and that went from September all the way to February, with a few days here, a few days there. So I actually and there were a lot of really good stunt people on the show, so I got to ask questions. And the more I worked, the more I had more questions. And then when they saw that I really was loving it and taking it seriously, they all wanted to help me, which was great.

It was a lot of fun. Was it a movie or a television show? Yeah, it was a movie called Death Sport, had David Carradine and Claudia Jennings. It was Roger Korman picture nice yeah, b for bad but stunts oh yeah. And then, um, I was always the biggest tomboy.

I loved anything. I was into every sport I could get my hands on. I was, like I said, climbing, jumping, surfing, snow skiing, just whatever. I loved it. And anything active by cycle, I'm going to do that too.

And so um, one day they handed me a plexiglass broadsword and they wanted me to jump off this embankment and swing it at this motorcycle guy. That was riding by, because just don't just make sure you're short so you don't hit him with it, just make it look like you're you're hitting him. And so I just couldn't believe my good fortune. And I said to him, you're going to pay me to play, because at a certain point in my growing up, my mom took me aside and said, Okay, now it's time to be a young lady, and you can don't do that stuff anymore. You need to quit that.

And so I just couldn't believe it. It's like, that's what I love doing, is learning all these different things and all I don't even think I withdrew from my second year of college classes. I just think I just totally went, hey, this is what I've been training for my whole life and didn't know it. I just never went back. Yeah, you never went back.

You're just in. You're like and so you start working. And he worked on so many cool shows in the seventies and eighties, like you know, Charlie's Angels, Cactating Lazy Chips, which we so were you You weren't chips for a long time? Were you doubling? Randy Oaks?

I did double Randy Oaks, but most of the time it was just random thanks. You know, driving That's where I did my first car turnover. Oh, I know, first year. After my first year and stunts, I got asked to be in the CBS Stunt competition against nine of the top guys in Hollywood, and you were the only woman. I was the only woman.

And it was outed Indian Dunes, and there was a car race, a motorcycle race, and a horse race, and each had elements of stunts in it. So I won the car race. Just won the car race, yeah, against guys yeah like Buddy Joe Hooker and Billy Burton who were like the top of the top, and Gary mcclardy, all the big names, and uh, you know, I'm just going out there having fun. And and then I would have won the motorcycle race, except we didn't get the bike warm enough and we sat there for a long long time. So when I when I went off the line, it was sputtering.

The rest of the guys got there was really hot, and so I got caught up with somebody who fell down. My front wheel got stuck between their wheel and fender, and I finally got free and tried to run and jump on it in the sand, and I missed the first time, and then I just ran alongside and jumped again, got on and there was a little river crossing when I was crossing the creek. Here the guy that won was jumping for the wind, so in those few laps I was able to almost catch him. Wow. And then the horse race, I had the shortest running horse and the tallest falling horse, so it was a running race to where we had to dismount the horse and then run to our other horse and jump up on that horse.

Falling a horse is where you grabbed down, you know, high on the near the horse's mouth on the rein. You have a step and then you pulled back as hard as you can and then the horse falls. But they're trained to do that, and it was in the sand. So I was second place in the horse race. Coming around, I found out that they were giving their horses some tranquilizers to make their falling horses, Yeah, to make them fall easier.

Mine had never been in any kind of situation, had just been newly trained, and so I felt this big old horse and I ended up being six by the time he finally hit the ground. I just remember this horse I looking at me like and just going in slow Marshi all the way down. Yeah, oh my gosh. And so in that case, were these guys happy that you beat them on their on their car race? No bet a lot of the other guys were happy put them in their place.

Yeah that's funny. Yeah, so yeah they So I got a lot of calls after that. So you know, not only did I have an excellent teaching in that one show that I worked on, over that period of time, I saw them do fire burns and high falls and fights and all kinds of cool stuff. So you know, I then got asked to be in the CBS Stunt Competition and did what I did, and it just launched my career like crazy. So I started getting calls for all kinds of things, falling downstairs, getting hit by cars, all kinds of stuff.

Yeah. I was gonna say, so you do high falls, and you're doing all this stuff, like, but you have to do them for the first time at some point, like how do you approach that you're young and you're like, Okay, I guess I'm going to do this now. Yeah, you train, you you find people that are training as well, and you go out and you train, and then also back then if someone saw that you had promise and they would take you under their wing and help you learn the trade. And I was fortunate enough, I think after the stunt competition, or right before the stunt competition. Genie Epper, who's a famous stunt woman, comes from a famous stunt family.

Her family basically took me in as far as helping me, and Genie just told me the ropes, you know, because as women, we have different things that happen and different situations that we have to deal with, and so she taught me a lot about what to do and what not to do. And then also proper set protocol, you know, chain of command. You just don't walk up to the director and tell them what you think you should be doing. You go through your stunt coordinator. And communication is really important because if you don't have good communications, somebody's likely to get hurt.

So if you're running around figuring out what you're gonna do, but you don't relay that to anybody, or you don't ask if that's okay, they can create huge problems with safety. So she taught me all that and I just loved being around them because they just were stunt all the way, the whole family because they yes, yeah, the whole family go to gift out for them to take you under their wing and show you the ropes and teach you how things, how things work. That's really that's really awesome. Yeah, I call her my stunt mom, and and you know, she can't do stunts anymore, and um, she's sad about it because it was her whole life. So one day somebody got apart for her where she could sit in a chair and be a hostage.

So I picked her up at six o'clock in the morning pouring rain, took her over to the studio and you know, just held onto her arm because she had some bad medical problems and so it's difficult, you know for her to just get around on her own and stuff like that. And so at the at the beginning of the day, she seemed like an old woman, you know, that was you know, not feeling good about herself and everything. And as the day started going on, she started coming to life again. It was just the most awesome things. And she was messing with the coordinator.

The coordinator was teasing her or something, and so I had one arm because it was dark on the stage and so I didn't want her to fall, so I just had one arm like just this, just in case. And so she tried to kick him. She did a karate kick, and I'm going, okay, Jeanie, you're feeling your own so you need to back it down a bit. But you know, she did so much for me, and you know my stunt mom as a person who like, I love to ride a horse or two, but come on, I'm afraid of pain. Um So there's a there's a real if you guys get hurt a lot.

Yeah, we get dinged a lot. Yeah. And like, what is a young person saying, I'm gonna I want to be a stunt person, but how do you manage that part of it? The I might get hurt, I might get injured severely. I might be dead.

I don't think about that. Oh sorry, should I not a brother? No, it's okay, it's all right. It doesn't bother me because, um I it's funny because I was driving my kids home from school one day in the Pathfinder and I'm going, I wouldn't even think about sliding this car around a corner right now. But if I was at work and they handed me the same car.

I would make it work, you know, and it's just like you flick the switch and it's it's kind of like a puzzle too. I've always loved puzzles is that when you go to work, you're presented with something that you need to do and you have to figure out how you can do it and how you can do it safely. So it's like the elements come together. And especially when you have experience, it's experience after experience after experience builds on itself, so you know, and you I don't know. I think what I like to say is that I train my brain to do it, so I know what the action is supposed to be, and I'll go through the motions, walking it through, or you know, if it's a fight, you go through the motions, but then I'll shut my eyes and I'll i'll try and visualize it.

If there's a glitch in the fluid motion of me visualizing it, I know that there's something that's not right and I need to go back and go over it again. So there's been times where Stone coordinators have so much faith in me and certain things that they go, oh, we want you to come down this bridge and slide in this spot. And I've got like this much room on one end and this much room on the back end. And I said, you want me to do that without hitting anything? And and I said, you're joking right, No, you can do it.

I go, oh God, they have so much faith in me. I wish they didn't have so much faith in me. And so so I go back there and come in right in there, and I'm just going, Okay, how do I do that? It's just funny, you know, because as hard as things look, we break them down and we try to make them as safe as possible. One time I had to jump a car from a dock to a ferry boat with about fifty feet of water in between.

And then there were cars on the flat deck of the ferry boat that I was supposed to crash into, and then ones that I wasn't supposed to crash into. And when you've got a ferry boat, it's not staying still, it's doing this. And when we first looked at it, they wanted, you know, they didn't have a cage in the car, a roll cage, and so I told them, you know, I really want a roll cage because if for some reason it's butters on the ramp and then it ends up hitting the back of the boat. Like this, I'm going in the water and I don't want to crash in on me. And so they did the roll cage, and I had a tank scuba tank with the you know, regulator in the car with me and everything.

And when I hit it, I hit it just perfect and it landed. But the boat had moved a little bit, so I was going right toward the back of a van I wasn't supposed to hit, So as soon as my wheels hit the ground, I turned and got it around and then hit the cars I was supposed to. And that's just all from like a racing background is you learn to react to things at speed, and that's why motorcycle riding is such good training for car driving. So let's travel back to the eighties again. And I just wanted to talk about because actually one of my weirdly one of my favorite shows, even though it's not an eighties TV ladies show, Hardcastle McCormick.

You were on Hardcast McCormick for a lot of years, and so I have questions. Okay, you were doing cars are in Hardcastle, Incormick, I assume Mars and other stunts, cars and other stunts. Yeah, I drive. I drove the Coyote. One drove the coyote.

Yeah okay. And for those who haven't seen it, which which character drove the coyote or did they both drive it? Or Daniel Hugh Kelly drove the you know, uh Mark McCormick of the Coyote X And so what was that like? Yeah, it was really difficult, you know, because it was set up for the guy who normally drives it, who was a motorcycle champion and also an off road champion, so and he had steering brakes and all kinds of different things in there that I'd never ever seen before. So so it was difficult to drive.

But somehow I did it. But um, yeah, I was on that show quite a bit. I can't remember all the things I did, but it was a lot of fun. Was it a fun show to be on? Oh?

Yeah, okay, yeah, it was a great show. Yeah. Yeah, I did Hunter. You did Hunter doubled Stephanie Kramer. I did her driving stuff because she was taller than me.

So my friend Tracy Dashna did all of the other doubling for but I did the car work. I got to do a really cool turnover on Hunter where I hit the ramp at sixty five miles an hour. All these years I thought it was fifty five miles an hour, but my sister led me in. My sister sistunt woman as well, but she led me in and I was telling her. I was talking to her about it the other day and she goes, oh, no, that wasn't fifty five miles an hour.

That was sixty five miles an hour. So here's yeah, that was a fast turnover. And then there was a big explosion on the back of the car that I hit and it just flew and there were things flying off of it and it was just a really cool shot. But back then, you know, we didn't we had roll cages, but we didn't have all the really cool things that we have now to protect you. So you just are gonna hit hard like you're you're rolling that car.

You're inside a car that's going sixty five thousand hour. You flip it up in the air and flip it upside down and it's going to land really hard and roll. That's the whole point of this, right, Uh. Huh. Yeah.

The hard part was that back in the old days, they didn't have the fuel cells that they have, the racing fuel cells. So we had this like little aluminum can that we used to fill up with fuel and it was like two gallons, so we filled that up. I was ready to do it. I was all tightened in and when when you turn over a car, they pull you down as tight as you can and you just can't even hardly breathe because it's so tight, because you don't want any slack at all, right, you don't want to bounce around. Yeah, and so you know, then it's rolling back.

Then five cameras was a lot. Well, we had to wait for the first it director he thought he wanted to come watch it, but then he decided no, he didn't need to be there. And so I was sitting there running the whole time. And finally I have cameras roll, roll, roll, everything's going and then they go action and I take off and it was almost three quarters of the way to the ramp. The car started pop pop pop pop pop, and I just pulled off and stopped, and all that adrenaline, all that build up, you know, it's just like so I had to get out of everything, you know, take some breaths, and they had to fill it up and reset and all that stuff, and you got to do it again.

Yeah, well I didn't do it the first time, but getting already. And that's what people don't understand is you have to be able to control that adrenaline rush. You know, some people can't can't perform with the adrenaline. So what I hate is when they asked me to sign out, They asked me to sign out right after I've done this stunt and my hands going like this because the adrenaline is pumping so much. I'm really curious about that moment between takeoff and landing on one of those stunts.

How long does that moment last for you? And are you just still thinking about this has to happen next, That has to happen next. Here's what I'm gonna do. Yeah, when when they say rolling, and you know, when they get into rolling, my focus goes from out here, you know, to like tunnel vision, and I don't think I hear much or it's no distractions because it's so much focus and action. And then then I'm going through the motions, just doing what I need to do.

I'm not thinking, not thinking about things. I've already rehearsed it in my head. I know what's supposed to happen, and it just just takes over. I'm focused on what I'm doing and I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do what I need to do. That's just amazing, all right.

So we're gonna take a little break and come back and a few more questions. I'm so excited, but we are going to take a little break. We'll be right back, all right. So we're back. So Ernie was the stunt coordinator on Remington Steel.

Yes, and you went and did the shows all over the world. Yeah. We went to Ireland, France and Malta, and then another time we went to Mexico and vier Mosa and planque Agua Zool which is right on the Guatemalan border. There were monkeys in the trees and everything they flew us in and a helicopter. I've even forget.

I've gotten a lot of this stuff that I did. One of the first things I did was jump out of a moving jeep um for Stephanie. It was such a fun show. I just was amazed at how much how much action quote unquote there was in that show. If you were Mexico, did you do the water skiing?

No, the jet skis. Wasn't that over in Europe? The wet bike that that was that was in Malta. Yeah, that was a wet bike. Yeah.

At the beginning of season three, I thought season four, Yeah, and I got in trouble because I jumped right on it and took off and left Pierce's character, which was which was Ernie in the in the in the wake. It left him right behind. You know that that was a very character. Oh you can't do that, No, you can't. That was a very low holt.

Actually that was very good character. I said, she can win. And then we also were in loss Hotts. Wow, they went all over Yeah, and there, since there were so few stunts people that went, they needed a Keys double, remember Keys, the heavy guy. So they put a fat suit on me in a bald cap.

And I looked like a little alien because my head's so small, and Pierce hits me and I go over the railing and fall in the pool. Oh my god, oh gosh. When we were in Mexico, it was really it was tough because you know, we had this jeep that had to do a bunch of stuff in the jungle, and and it needed some work because it had been sitting there for a long time. And we went over with the guy who was supposed to do it, told him exactly what needed to be done, and he said, okay, Manyana, and okay. Oh so so tomorrow we'll have this done.

We need it, we need it, Manyanna, we need it tomorrow. And we get there and nothing had been done. He shows up and he goes Manyanna, and so we ended up branching on a thing. Him and I were working on it, trying to get the thing going again and seeing, thank god, your dad made you build that motorcycle. Yeah, well, you know, he did teach me all that, and it's really come in handy.

I know how to do whatever I need to do. So there's times where I would go to work and I'd have some old piece of junk motorcycle and I'd had my little pouch full of tools, and I'd just start taking them out and fixing and doing whatever I needed to do, and all the guys are standing there going what I said. Yeah, Yeah, that's me. Oh man, that's so great. I'm so excited to learn that you did all those international episodes of Firmington Steel and that you stunted for keys.

Because again in the eighties, there were a lot of men that were stunting for women. It still wasn't just the practice. So can you talk a little bit about what was happening sort of behind the scenes about women in the stunt world. Yeah, well, you know, I was fortunate because I came in in nineteen seventy seven and that's when all the affirmative action thing was just starting, you know, or it had just started, and so I kind of walked in at a really good time. And I'm thankful for that because they weren't giving women chances to do things.

But because I had the sequence of events like learning on that one show and then being in the stunt competition, everybody got to see that I had talent and that I could adapt to different things, that I could do a lot of things. So doors started opening up like crazy for me and proving that women can do. You know, there were some women who did driving, and you know, like Donna Garrett and Jeanie did some driving, but it wasn't at the level. You know, there was a certain level where they thought women couldn't do it. And when you know, I was very fortunate when I got on Chips, they gave me a car turnover.

Very shortly after I started working on the show. I did some motorcycle stuff for them and some car stuff, and they saw that I had talent and I could listen and do what I was instructed to do as well. The first car turnover I did, there was no rollcage. It was just a roll bar, and it was way back because they did it for a guy who's six six foot sixty one, you know, and he's got lots of leg room, and my seats way forward. So what we used to do was go to a grab strap.

We would make a strap that go across the seat and then and you keep one hand in it. And it was a wood ramp, so when I came in, I had to turn the wheels to the right, which rolls it like that, but I had a little bit more speed, so it kind of went like this and landed on the side and then it turned upside down and there was a line from the front to the roll bar. So I got my grab strap and I got pulled down, and you know, they loved it. I thought it was great. So each thing that I did, I would kind of underplay my abilities when I would talk to them, because you know, I wasn't all that confident anyway, but I knew what I had done, and I would tell them what my experience was, and I wouldn't set the bar too high that I couldn't clear it.

And that's a problem with a lot of new people. When they come in. They're excited, they want to do a good job, and they're saying, oh, I can do this, I can do that. I'm so really good at this, and I'm really good at that, and that's kind of setting themselves up for a fall, because you know, you want to be able to set that bar where you can clear it every time. Yeah, but there were some really cool things on Remington Steel.

I got to jump the Volkswagen Rabbit into the pond at Disney Ranch, you know where that covered bridges and then there's a little pond. I remember that episode. Yeah, I jumped it. It was so fun because it was such a big wave. It's just hit and it was like boosh, my god everywhere.

So you have been awarded many many times? Do you have won? I think every stunt to word there is and many many times, and you Motorcycle Hall of Fame, what's the award that means the most to you. I think the award that means the most to me is my AMA Hall of Fame because I went for a women's conference in Ohio. The headquarters of American Motorcyclist Association is in Pickerington, Ohio, which is right near Columbus, and I spoke there and did some stuff for them, and then we went to the AMA Museum and they have a Wall of Fame, and I saw all the names of all the famous people that my dad knew, and you know, we go watched the races at ascot and I saw them race, and you know, people that he rode with and people that I admired growing up.

We're all on the wall. And I was just secretly thinking, wouldn't it be cool if I'm up there someday? And then in two thousand and three, I was inducted into the AMA Hall of Fame. So for me, that goes way back to the very beginning, the roots of it. You know, what it all started, what all started it?

And so we live in kind of an area where sometimes there's fires and we have to evacuate. One of the first things I grab is my AMA Medal. But you know everything, I feel honored, you know, to be inducted into the Hall of Fame. And then there was another one, Trailblazers Hall of Fame, which is another motorcycle Hall of Fame that I feel really honored to be in. I feel honored to have my Tourists Done awards.

I've got seven of them. Yeah, and then I got the Artemists Lifetime Achievement Award and then another Achievement Award, and so I just feel I'm very grateful to beginning to do what I love all these years and being appreciated for it is really something special. This point in my life, I'm trying to pass on the knowledge that I have because I'm not going to be around forever. You know. People say, when are you going to quit?

And I go, well, when I want to, I don't want to. I'm still having a blast. I love it. I love it, and now now that the kids are older, I get to travel more. And yeah, I just feel grateful, you know, to have been able to find my niche.

You know, of what my real passion in life has been since I was a little kid, I was always doing active things, and now I get to make a living still doing active things. With some books and documentaries, there seems to be more notice of stunt women. Do you find that. Do you find it's a different appreciation now than when you started. Yes, it is a different appreciation now, and it's it's good.

A lot of the guys appreciated our skills back then, but then there were guys who just wanted to jump in the seat and make the money, and you know, so that was discouraging. But there's always those kind of people. Yeah, And I choose to concentrate on the people that do want to see you succeed and do want to help you. And even like I get picture car guys that sometimes because I'm a woman and I don't look like an aggressive woman, they think that I can't drive, and they when they first see me and they don't know who I am, I can tell they're going, oh god, a woman driver. Yeah still now, well, you know, so I realized that and I go, okay, hey, um, do you think you could help me put some air in the tire?

I need fifty punts and the worst please? Would you be okay doing that? Okay. So he does it, and then even though I know that I know how to do all that stuff, it's just and so then I say, oh, thanks very much, I really appreciate it. And he goes off.

And then at the end of the day I track him down. I say, hey, man, I just wanted to thank you so much for all your help today really meant a lot. And the next day he's there waiting as like a puppy dug, can I do something to help you? So, you know, I just figure people don't know. And sometimes people have been treated badly, or maybe not, maybe they just have bad attitudes.

But a lot of times you can give people the respect they don't deserve and they come around and they end up being your best buddies in your corner completely. And so I find it fun most of the time. You know. That's such a great line. Yeah, giving people their respect they don't deserve, and see if they come around.

When I coordinated Carly's Web, there was a grip that didn't want to do anything. I had to chain a box, a couple of apple boxes together so the actor could jump up on it, and they didn't want to do it. He didn't want to do it, so man should be doing that coordinating job. And I just went, Okay, then I'll do it myself. And so I did it myself.

And then the next day we were on set. We were on stage and it was like a stage set up, a high school stage set up, and she has to run off the stage and I was going to stand there and safety here in case she tripped. But I saw him and I went, hey, do you think you could stand here and safety here because I'm kind of small, and you know, I just think he, you know, she'd be a lot safer with you there. And from then on he was. He was my buddy.

I mean, he helped me with everything. And you know, he was a real jerk, real jerk. He wasn't doing his job the first day, but you know, and then I also had an issue with the prop guy who I told him how many breakaway bottles I needed for the scene, and he goes, I bet you don't know anything about breakaway bottles, and I said, as a matter of fact, I don't, but i'd sure like to learn. I was in the pot this old guy, and I was in the prop truck for about forty five minutes. He was telling me all about breakaway glass and who makes the best.

From then on, he was willing to help me with anything. Wow, you can flip a car and flip a dude's personnelity. You got a lot of skills. But coordinating is tough, you know, for women, because for so long they thought it was a guy's domain, guy's job. Yeah, all right, we're down to three questions.

Okay, So number one, what's the eighties ladies driven television show that resonated with you kind of at the time? And it may have been one you worked one. I think I have two favorites. Oh god, Now it's that's really hard because the eighties has a bunch of great shows. Can name as many as you'd like.

Okay. I loved Remington Steel. It was just a fun show, really fun show. I loved watching it as well as working on it. And then Beauty and the Beast was fun too, and and I doubled Linda Hamilton on that.

And let's see Hunter was great too because they were women that were to kind of chick charge, you know, and they did things and got things done, and you know, it was it was a lot of fun to see women in those roles. You know, I was very fortunate and very beginning to get to double Wonder Woman on the motorcycle because Genie doubled her regularly, and then I doubled her on the motorcycle. All right, And do you have any current ladies of TV shows that you're watching or enjoying or I know you're pretty busy, but not so much now because there's so much content out there that I end up not watching anything, you know. So I think the eighties was a very special time. What's the most action hero like slash television moment, like like a moment in your life where you thought, is this scripted?

That had to be Heaven's Gate. I know that's not a TV show, but it's allowed having grown up wanting a horse or a pony in my whole life. And when this coordinator called me, he had seen me do the stunt called petition, and he called in. I said, well, I'm not a horsebacker. I don't I wasn't raised around them.

I wouldn't know if the wrong bits in the mouth or you know, I don't know a whole lot about all of the technical stuff because I wasn't raised around them. But I went to camp and there was horses and ponies, and I said, you know, if you'll have me on that basis, I would love to come. And he says to me, you're on, kid, And I had the time of my life. I was just so happy the entire time. And you know, the wranglers can really mess with you.

They had a reputation for if people acted like they knew what they were doing, they would want to prove them wrong. So they all they'll loosen the cinch, loosen the bridle, put the wrong bit in the mouth, do all kinds of stuff. And so what I did was I you know, I said, I ride, but I'm not a great rider, and if you see me doing something that isn't right or whatever, can you just please let me know because I want to learn. And they were wonderful to me and I just had the time on my life. I had to ride horses just full gallop, full on run down through fields, and my stirrups were swinging in the wind because they were those old antique stirrups or saddles, and the the leather was all rotten, you know, or not rotten, but just solid in there, and they couldn't undo it.

So I didn't even have stirrups because you right, yeah, you couldn't adjust them so full on runs and I never fell off. And we did river crossings, which is one of the most dangerous things you can do, and I just listened to everything they said and did it. And it was funny because all the stunt guys were cowboys and everything. And it was funny because I'll chew tobacco and so one day I put some gum in my lip and I turned my head. They act like I'm and then they're looking at me like you want to smoke a cigar too.

I go, no, it's gumsy. And then I also play guitar, and so I had my tuar with me and it was Chris, Chris Stafferson, UM, Steve Bruton, m David Mansfield the fiddle player, Norton Buffalo the harmonica player, and they would put on concerts for us and Tibo and Burnett the whole brother where Art felt the whole thing. So here I am sitting in a hotel room on the floor with my guitar. It was really interesting because when I was sitting there playing, you know, I kind of didn't want to make any noise. And they go come on, play, play, and so they were just kind of jamming and stuff, and so I started playing a little bit, but not real hard.

And then when I went back to my room, I was playing a whole different way than I'd ever played before, like opened the door to a whole different sound. So yeah, but those were just like the that movie was a lot of pinch me moments. Is this really happening? Or am I just dreaming this? That's so great, that's so so great.

I'm you know, it's been such an absolute pleasure to have you on our show and and to have you talk about this stuff. And I'm so glad that Stephanie said we should reach out to you. I'd love to have Genie on the show too, so hopefully that we can. Emphani's awesome. She is such a great person, and I just, you know, so glad that we're still in touch after all these years.

It's really special and it's been it's been really special to be able to talk to you today. So thank you very much, Thank you so much, thank you. I know that your website is Debbie Evans dot com. What's up next for you? Do you know?

I don't know, I don't even look for work, it finds me. And in between I just do other things. Oh I worked on Gray Man. Oh oh yeah, was that shot overseas as well? Or was yeah?

That was in Prague? Wow? Yeah? And I drove the Red Audie nice and oh, this is a cool story. Ryan Gosling was on set, and finally I got introduced to him after working several scenes with him several days before, and the second unit directors says, Ryan, this is Debbie Evans.

He goes, I know who she is. You're a living legend. And I'm going, are you talking to you? But I thought that was so cool. That is so cool.

And Ryan Gosling not better? What a good boy's super nice? Really nice? Yeah that's great. Yeah.

And then we'll be looking for you in Fast x YE. But we don't know what car you'll be in. I'm not doubling Michelle. Okay, all right, all right, okay, Well after it comes out, let us know so we can make sure to keep an eye out for you. Oh and and I was on the call sheet on part of it.

I was bad guy buy whatever, bad guy. Oh my god, I'm gonna that's your nickname now, bad guy, Daddy, bad guy Evans, let's do it. Oh gosh, all right, well you have a great day and the great afternoon, and um, maybe you know I want to have a big reunion episode where we have everybody that we had on the show come back on the show, so we can get Stephanie on with you and now you guys can just check. It'd be great. I think my head would explode, I really do.

Bye. Take here. Our audioography for today is Debbie evans website Debbie Evans dot com. And there's also another great website to find out more about women in stunts, and it's called women in Stunts dot com and you can read about a lot of stunt women. Please go to our website and you can find those links there as well as a few others on Debbie.

We also have several books to recommend. The first one is called Stunts, The how to Handbook Secrets from an award winning Hollywood stunt Woman by Angela Merrill. And these are all going to sound very familiar in just a minute, but I promise you they're all different. The Stunt Woman, The True Story of a Hollywood Heroine by Julie Anne Johnson and David L. Rob and then there's Stunt Woman, The Hollywood Untold Story by Molly Gregory, and links to those books will be on our website as well, Eighties tv Ladies dot Com.

Next time on Eighties tv Ladies, we're going to be moving on to our next show, Cagney and Lacy. I can't wait. Send us your questions on the website Eighties tv Ladies dot Com and let us know what other shows you want us to cover and if you have any questions about Cagney and Lacy. We hope Eighties TV Ladies brings you joy and laughter and lots of fabulous new and old shows to watch, all of which will lead us forward toward being amazing ladies of the twenty first century, like Debbie Ovens Babies and So Pretty to the City.