194: Dealing with Cho Dependency

Movie meltdown movie oh man. Get out the dvd player this is michael winslow from police academy one through infinity and space posit now brooks movie meltdown The following feature has been rated R by the Motion Picture Association of America. It is intended for mature audiences and parental discretion is advised. It's showtime, folks. Enjoy the show.

Our nuclear reactor, pumping out one million kilowatts of power. What's up and welcome to Movie Meltdown. I'm Brian and this week we have. A special guest. I'll be talking with comedian, actress, writer, producer, Margaret Cho.

Now Margaret's had quite a career and is still growing strong as she's here in the middle of another successful stand-up tour. But this week we're going to talk to her about getting started in comedy and then about crossing over into the movies. So first we'll take a break and along the way we'll hear some clips from one of Margaret's other endeavors. She's also moved into music. So we'll hear some of Margaret's songs and we'll be back to talk with Margaret herself.

If I had superpowers, I'd make love to you for hours. Never need a bathroom break. My lower back would never ache. And if someone treated you. Bad or mean, my whole body would turn green.

I'd bust out of all my clothes. Turn into Lou Ferrigno, and obviously win the fight. Cause I'm a friggin' rockstar superhero bitch. Take off my glasses and start to switch. I'll start to spin the lights with strobe.

I am Captain Camel Toe. Wanna be your superman, put you in my super plans. You could be my lowest lane, fly in my invisible plane. That's a squatting at 30,000 feet! Oh yeah, you might take me.

Out for a bite at a place that serves kryptonite. Then, of course, we'd have a fight. But it always turns out I am. Right. Oh, the time is now, the time is here.

Now's the time to work by the cheer. The place you like where the. Price is right. Well, look in here, you'll dig this site. The moment's handy for a piece of candy.

Just name your brand, they're all so grand. Hey, what do you think of a night to rent? This is Carola Dew. Young, beautiful, desirable. Men found her irresistible.

But something is happening to her. Something that she doesn't quite understand. And soon she will be swept up in a frantic fury of repulsion. Repulsion, a frightening film that takes the everyday world and distorts it. Repulsion, a terrifying look at the dark side of innocence losing control.

Repulsion, a shocking plunge into the nightmare world of a young woman's sensual fantasies. Tweet Audio, your source for high-performance, noise-reducing earbuds. Available in three styles and seven colors. Dave, I do not get superheroes. Oh my God, I don't get you.

What don't you get? Towerbot here. Well, the meatbags were going to say that if you're a geek and like podcasts, then you could try Tower of Technobabble at www.toweroftechnobabble.com. Then this started. Well, it's up to you.

I'm gonna get my taser and put a stop to this. Towerbot out. Okay, monkeys. It's nap time. Hi, this is Lily Tomlin, and I'm on Movie Meltdown with Brian.

Tumble out of bed and I stumble to the kitchen, pour myself a cup of ambition, and yawn. And stretch and try to come to life. Jump in the shower and the. Blood starts pumping, out on the streets the traffic starts jumping, and folks like me on the job. From nine to five.

It's part of your problem, you know. You haven't seen enough movies. All of life's. Riddles are answered in the movies. And now, on with the show.

Hey, big dog. Why are you afraid of the wind? They will always blow the doors. And windows in. Wind is real.

It's always there. Baby, big dog. It's only moving. Air. Hey, big dog.

Why you always wait by the phone. Don't you know that Batman Will always leave you alone He likes to say well But he never says when. And I will fight him If. He comes around again. We're silly creatures who need teachers.

We've got problems. Can we solve them together? Together. Together. Hey, big dog, why do you howl at the moon?

I never heard such a sad and mournful tune. All right. Well, we're here with Margaret. I usually like to get into it kind of early with people and sort of see where everything started. So I guess, first off, how would you describe yourself as a kid?

I guess pretty shy and quiet. I mean, I don't know. I'm a pretty shy, quiet person, so that would probably sum it up. I think that's what I've always been like. So not one of those kids that was trying to steal the attention from everybody else in the family and be in the spotlight?

No. No. Wow. Well, I guess, you know, a lot of your. Stand-up, especially early on, was sort of based out of, you know, your home life and your family growing up.

I guess, how early was it you started to realize, like, what was going on at home was funny, or at least funny to you. At the time? I just liked, well, I liked the art form. I didn't even realize what was happening to me was funny. I liked the art form of whatever comic. was and what it represented, which was kind of freedom.

And, you know, I just thought that was really interesting. And it just seemed like what I was going to do. And I started comedy so early that it was more just a wish to just, like, stop being a child. Yeah. I guess sometimes that stuff that you're interested in at the time influences you.

What were you watching when you were still relatively young as far as, I guess in general, but was it some of the comedy. Or specific people that sort of tapped into what you got? I think a lot of Carol Burnett and SCTV certainly was a big deal. All of that was really important. Was it something that you sought out that early on, looking for stuff on TV or comedy albums or.

Stuff like that? Yeah, and it was all really popular then, and San Francisco itself was a very popular comedy town also. So it was a big deal where I'm from. At that point, what were your other interests? If you didn't end up going into entertainment, was there something else you probably would have.

Ended up in? I don't think so. I was so young. I didn't really have any other choices or options, really. I mean, it was not anything that I had really thought out well.

You know, I just knew that I wanted to be a comedian and I knew that I was going to do it. And so it was just very clear to me that that was the right thing. Did you start to, again, you were kind of like a teenager at that point. Were you, like, pursuing it? In school, like taking classes or something that way, or did you just sort of go find it yourself?

No, no, they didn't have anything like that. No, no, no. No, it was really not like you could study it in school. And I was far younger than anybody doing it at the time. Yeah.

And you didn't know, like, performing or acting and stuff like that in school, or was it just. No, not really. A little bit, but not really. Yeah. You know, not... really seriously.

I mean, I went to a performing arts high school, but that was not the same thing. Yeah, yeah. Well, and then you sort of took it upon yourself to get into stand-up. Where did you start finding, you know, places that would let you perform that young? There were places.

There was the Holy City Zoo, which was really great, and. And then there was, like, I mean, the comedy club, you could still perform and get into it, you know, and do shows, but you couldn't really hang out. So I was still able to do shows, like, every day. Yeah. And at that point, you know, being that young, your parents were okay with that?

Well, they were working. They didn't really know what I was doing, and they didn't have that kind of a hold on me or control over me that... you know, other kids would have had. You know, I didn't have that same kind of relationship with them and relationship with their ideas of what I should do. I guess at what point did it feel like you were moving into it professionally, that it really did sort of click, that, you know, it was going to be able to be something you. Could do as a career?

I think it just didn't really... I mean, it didn't really take that long. You know, I started off... pretty much able to make a living, you know, in my late teens and early 20s, and then really was settling into that life of doing comedy. And it was, I guess, by the time you hit, you know, in the stand-up world, it was also right in that window of time when they were trying to take every stand-up comedian and give them a sitcom. So was that something, I mean, I guess. certainly career-wise, it was something you wanted, but was it something you feel like you were prepared for when they sort of threw this sitcom at you?

Oh, no, but I didn't, you know, know anything. I mean, I was so young, I didn't really understand what all that meant or what it was, and, you know, I didn't really figure it out until later. Yeah. Well, it is sort of an adjustment as far as performing on stage and then getting into acting, especially a very stage sitcom kind of scenario. What What kind of adjustment was that for you?

It was a different thing. It was really hard. I mean, and it was really exciting, but it was also super, like, I didn't know what I was doing, and I was really scared, and I just didn't get it, you know? Yeah. And then you pretty quickly also started kind of venturing into movies.

That's a totally different environment, too, I guess. What was it like as you sort of entered into a different scenario in working in movies? Well, I didn't do it as much as I did stand-up comedy. That was more, I mean, every once in a while I would get to do a movie, but in general, oh, and then I was making my own stand-up movies, which is a different thing, too. That's just like doing stand-up, but, you know, you film it.

So that sort of, like, changed a lot for me, too. Yeah. I mean, was that when you were taking a pretty hands-on role as far as creating the product itself as well as the stand-up. Yeah and being more in charge of everything and being more active in it all yeah would you. Kind of go into some of the movies i didn't know if you had any any uh i guess you know you being on the set of some of these you know if you had any like what what's sort of the strangest thing that happened in the middle of like a movie shoot along the way.

Um nothing so strange i mean i i worked on some big movies i worked on a movie called face off which was uh Really a big one with John Travolta and Nicolas Cage. And I guess what was weird is we all had stunt doubles for that film. So we had, like, this weird bodybuilder version of ourselves kind of walking around. So that's a trip. Yeah, that's kind of a huge ordeal, that movie.

I mean, I guess we're working with John. What was that like? He's great. He was a great, great, great person to. Just get, you know, get direction by and hang out with, and I really love John Woo.

I love his movies, and I love him as a guy. He's a great guy. And just being with that cast, I guess, what was the vibe? Pretty spectacular. I mean, you know, as far as, like, movies go, it's a pretty funny one to say that you were in, and it's very, it's really pretty exciting.

And kind of different than everything you've done up to that point. Yes, very. Definitely. Some of the other stuff. You ventured more into serious stuff with It's My Party.

Was that a conscious decision to move into something more serious? Well, that movie was really special. I really fought to get that part. I really loved the movie. I just thought it was a beautiful story, and it was really about things that I understood, which, you know, people dying from AIDS, which I had seen and experienced.

It was a good project to be involved in, and it let me kind of do something that was totally different for me at the time, be a super serious actress. Yeah. Again, usually taking things so light, was it a lot more adjustment to get into that mode as far as performing? I think so. I think it was, you know, it was...

But a lot of it was improvised, too, and a lot of it was... just very loose, and it was based on a true story, so we were all allowed to meet the people that we were portraying as well, and that was cool. Looking ahead, you'd also, as you get into Bam Bam and Celeste, you wrote that and moved into producing it. Is it something that you wanted to move into as far as having more control over those kind of projects? Well, yeah, and it was kind of like a quintessential 90s, like early 2000s things to, you like, you know, you go and you do like a road film. And there's so many of these independent films that are like, you know, they're kind of, there's like different, they're all sort of, I guess, they've got that feeling of like a California or like Thelma and Louise or, you know, there are so many films from that era and like early in the 90s that it's almost like 90s noir and so that's what we wanted to do is to do like something that was a bit like Dumb and Dumber too but more of a queer bent on it and so that's really what that was that was in tribute to because I love I love movies and I love you know it's a whole different thing to write them and to produce them as opposed to just being in them it's quite a lot yeah is.

It something you've become more interested in? Is it something you want to move into as far as, you know, creating more and more stuff as far as writing and producing? Yeah, I'd love to do that. I mean, it's more that my, um, work now tends to be like more about television and live performance. Um, and so those two things are really, uh, kind of more where I'm very active and, um, I love, but I'd love to write and produce more films and to do more acting in them.

I think it's really important too. And you kind of ventured into directing a little bit. Is that something you're interested in somewhere down the line? Somewhere down the line. I mean, it's definitely... something I'd love to do.

It's something also that I think is very tough. I think it's really, um, hard for me to do, um, to focus myself in that, in that way or tell stories visually, um, in that way as a director should. Like, I don't have that, um, you know, I, I, I don't, I, I, I don't have that, like, techie eye that will always, like, understand that I'm looking at from a camera's point of view. Like, I don't, always think into these two dimensions. It's too hard for me.

So I think it's an unnatural thing for a director to not have that understanding of the camera. I just don't. So it's something that I probably have to acquire. There was another one that I just wanted to see what your thoughts were that seemed a little out of the ordinary. One Missed Call that was on there, was that?

Oh, that was cool. Well, that was like a remake of a J-horror movie. film and I made that um that was when for the first time I worked in Atlanta where it's like I'm opened up as a film market you know and they were like a place where they would have locations like that's a big location now for filming they have a lot of movies there and my TV show films out of there now too so it was the first time I'd gone there and it was like I think when you do horror and when I was even doing Face Off you end up doing a lot of night shoots which is really tough um you know, where you don't even... Like, the workday starts when the sun goes down, and then, you know, it's just... To me, horror films are the toughest to do, because you do have to actually, like, really focus on the light, and, you know, there's such an emphasis on trying to make shadow, and you can't be battling daylight with that.

It's really hard. So I find... that's probably why I've not done as much horror I've done some really notable things I was in a Gregor Rocky film with Doom Generation which is like a totally. Totally great classic in its own way. Very cool it's a total cult classic and it you know it was really a spectacular movie and with the amount of like dried like fake blood and I had to have be covered in pig intestines so that's It's not pleasant. I mean, that's the nature of horror.

But the person that I work with, Selena Luna, she's a comedian that I throw with. She does a lot of horror. She's gotten killed over and over in these films. And I just think it's so cool. But it is totally a lot of work.

Well, you mentioned liking that and just kind of liking movies in general. What's stuff that you personally are just into as far as watching and enjoying yourself? Well, my favorite film is Belle du Jour, which is Catherine Deneuve's Louis Bunuel film. It's really great. It's when she's really in her prime.

You know, another one of my favorite films is Repulsion, which was maybe a couple of years before that. It's a Polanski movie. And I love the 60s and early 70s for film. It's a great time. I love.

And I love any, like, French New Wave and Truffaut, and I love Bergman. Like, to me, that's sort of, like, the golden age of movies is, like, the 70s and 60s. And, like, so, you know, in general, I do, I do, like, British 60s comedies, like, The Knack and How to Get It. I mean, my film knowledge is very extensive over, like, probably between, like, 1958 and 1975. and then I don't know anything after that, and there's nothing current at all either. That's a good window, though, you know.

Well, it's a good window, and it's sort of like where I would guess. I do adopt a lot of my personal style and whatever influenced me as, you know, an adult, like becoming an adult. That's the kind of, like, hair I want and the kind of makeup I want, the clothes I want, and it is, I guess, a little bit like a Mad Men thing, but it's also, you know, going into the 70s, it's not as, much of a period. You know, you sort of get looser and get wilder, but. A little gritty.

I really, if I... Yeah, all my favorite films are, like, you know, these, like, French films or British films. Interesting. I guess, you know, any of the weirder... Well, you say you have not much now, but, yeah, you like the horror?

Was there horror from that time period. That you liked? Horror from that time period? I guess it was a little bit later on would be, like, The Exorcist. Yeah, yeah.

Or The Omen. Those are great movies. Um. You know, anything that sort of, like, was about the fear of children, like Children of the Corn is a really good one. That goes into the 80s, or, like, Perry.

Oh, yeah. It's really phenomenal. You know, that's a great one, and that has sort of everything. It's not just horror, but it's, like, teenage stuff. It's crazy, like, a religious mom.

It's weird, like, Sissy Sissick, who is so beautiful and strange. But that's a really exceptional movie. And I like all of the, like, Halloween, first Halloween, Friday the 13th. First one is great. The greatest is Texas Chainsaw Massacre.

Yeah. Because it manages to be hilarious and also really scary. It was, yeah, something people hadn't seen at that point in time. It was pretty strange for them. It was a really good hybrid and a really messed up movie.

But, yeah, I spent a lot of time in the 90s, in the early 90s, with Clinton Tarantino, and we would just watch. Heavy metal parking lot, and these really weird independent videos that people made, or people that made movies in their homes. There's another one called Black Devil Doll from Hell, which a guy had made pretty much entirely on video, I think sometime in the 80s. That's a pretty great horror film. But he made it with just a weird video camera that he had.

And he utilized a ventriloquist dummy and a child and made a film, you know, made a pretty legitimate horror film. So that's pretty great. Nice. We'd also watch, like, Karen Black's Trilogy of Terror. Oh, yeah.

Which is like a TV movie from the 70s. The little doll. The little doll. Yeah. I think movies with little dolls are really scary.

Everybody's frightened of that doll to this day. Yeah. Or like. The magic with Anthony Hopkins, that's really scary, too. So dolls that come alive freak you out.

Yeah, and so with the simmies and dolls, it's like really, that's real horror. Definitely. Well, yeah, that's true. You were kind of hanging out with Quentin at that time. He'd built up such a knowledge of movies from that time period anyway.

I guess was it just... him showing you all this stuff that he was excited about. He was showing. Me and then also gathering knowledge from me because the period of cinema that I'm an expert on, he knows relatively little about. Because he's really about these genre films and noir and very much into action, like Rio Bravo and all those kinds of huge movies and samurai films. I don't know anything about about that but I knew everything that happened in London and Paris and New York from like 1978 to 1974 so that's a lot so he didn't know anything about that but he did know about his other stuff so it balanced out we taught each other I think a lot of stuff about film.

That's interesting and yeah kind of a pivotal point for both of you really at that point he just was kind of breaking through at that point and so were you Well, yeah, and I'm so. You know, it's beautiful to go see his movies now. And I see him every once in a while. And he's so... He's so the same.

And his movies... And it's like, you know, when I. I haven't seen the last one, the newest one, which I'm really excited about. But it's like. You know, all of his movies, I watch them and I'm like, I know where this comes from, like from where he.

Thought, like, oh, I see, it's going to be like this, and I understand so much of the film language that he uses in a very, very deep way, so I think, you know, when you have these friendships in your younger years, it does make sort of clear what your plans are for the future. You can kind of, when you know somebody when they're younger, you can kind of feel, they'll become as an adult, a real adult, you know, it's cool. Yeah, it is interesting, because he, I mean, as a filmmaker, yeah, you can kind of look at his work now, and look backward and see where he was sort of piecing this from this movie and this style from this movie. And so it's, it's kind of fun to think of you sitting on the couch next to him as he's discovering.

Yeah. He had this huge, like he had bought this TV that had letterbox everything. And this is like the, you know, very, very different in, um, the early nineties. So you didn't have like TVs, like flat screens and stuff. And this is so, he had like a huge, like new thing, TV that he had gotten like, cause, um, he made a bunch of money from Reservoir Dogs.

And so that was like one thing he bought was like a TV. And then he had like gotten all of the, uh, he'd bought the whole stock of, um, videos, the VHS tapes from his old work video archive. So it was like 8,000 movies. Good. That he hadn't seen yet.

So we were really going through a lot of them. That's crazy. Yeah, nobody had any idea what Letterboxd was at that point. No, but we would laugh because we could watch Family Ties on Letterboxd. Well, that's the only way to see Alex P.

Keaton. Well, I was excited because on Sunday, Alex P. Keaton, I got to meet him. I got to meet Michael J. Fox.

Wow. And he was an icon. That's kind of amazing. Is there still, like, you know, big people like that that you run into that still kind of. Catch you off guard?

Yeah, I mean, you know, there's people who really throw me in, like David Bowie, who is so kind and lovely and warm and a beautiful man. It's so, you know, you get really intimidated by it. These people I do, you know, people like that. Certainly Bowie. And he's somebody that is great in so many different ways.

And I'm quite a recluse now. I haven't seen him in a while, but he's really fantastic. Yeah, he's done a lot in his time, too. So it would be interesting to see. Yeah, you've kind of done different stuff as far as acting.

Is there a type of role or a type of movie that you haven't done yet that you would be interested in doing? I would kind of sort of... I mean, I just want to do everything. Like, I'm really open to whatever I can do, and I want to work, like, no matter what. I want to work, and so I try to just be the best that I can and try to do as much as I can.

You know, I'm very driven to just do stuff, and, you know, a lot of that is really draining, but it's really fulfilling, too, so... Yeah, I need to do stuff. Find a way to sort of bring about that 60s French. Movie and find a way to make it work in the modern day. That would be cool.

I mean, you know, it's like obviously we have a real appeal for the aesthetics and the kind of storytelling because, like, everything on Mad Men really mirrors that. Like, it is a kind of a slow-moving drama, like human drama. And that's what all the 60s stuff was. You know, like Joji Girl or, you know, any of those, like, you know, Taste of Honey, any of those, like, Rita Cushingham, like, movies. They're really these human dramas that are told in very, like, stylish clothes, and that's really what Mad Men is.

They unfold in the same kind of drawing room way and Saturday night, Sunday morning way and kind of writing, and I really appreciate that. So I think it could be popular. Yeah, we definitely love the aesthetic of it, and, you know, we can get on board with certain types of stories. I think, yeah, it's just finding the one that'll break through. And find the audience.

Right, yeah. I mean, you know, there's things like, I don't know if I fall, like, so in love with film that's so stylized. But then, you know, there's stuff that I, like, I guess you can get into that's pretty affected by, like, sort of period, you know, things like that whole, like, This is England series, and that stuff to me is very much, it's sort of a 60s thing too, even though it is set in the 80s. It is a period piece. Now the 80s is almost like the 60s that we were thinking about the 60s.

The way that we thought about the 80s now, we thought about the 60s in the 80s. Yeah, it's weird how it all comes back around. Yeah, very weird. Definitely. Do you have any new projects you want to tell people about that are?

Working on? I am, um, on tour now, um, I'm really just working constantly, I'm doing two shows a night, and I'm on the road, and, um, this is what I love, you know, I wrote a new show, and I'm out with it, and so that's what's going on, um, with me. Uh, any new other, you know, you've kind of ventured into so many areas now, I mean, you've done writing and acting and fashion and music? Is there other stuff going on that you're overwhelmed with all these projects? Well, I love doing stand-up comedy, and I really love that most, and that's what I do, and then everything else is stuff that I get to do.

Stand-up is my real job, and everything else is sort of like it just gets to be things that I get to do, like 30 Rock or or any of these great shows that I'm able to work on. For me, it's a welcome and exciting thing, but I love stand-up, and that's what I'm always going to do when I don't have another gig. Right now, it's all about stand-up. I'll be doing stand-up shows for the rest of the year and throughout the next year, so it's pretty busy. But since you mentioned it, yeah, your Kim Jong-il is pretty impressive.

Oh, thank you. Thank you. I'm very proud of it. Nominated for an Emmy, so that's, yeah. Not bad.

Good to be recognized, yeah. Yeah. But, yeah, you mentioned stand-up being your real job. I know a lot of comedians that are working now, it is sort of like it's still so hard to find an audience that they do have to take on these other projects and sort of use those to find. A new audience and bring in their audience.

And, you know, even though stand-up is their real job, they almost have to go into these other side projects to reel in these people that may not have known about them before. I guess you have been doing that since the beginning, really. Yeah, so it's great. But definitely you want to introduce yourself to new people, and there's so much out there to get to be a part of. And I'm fortunate in that I have a lot of great, great friends and great people who I've collaborated with in all the different industries, all the different disciplines in comedy and music and in television.

And so it's beautiful to be able to do that and collaborate with other people who are so talented. I think that was about it, unless you had anything else to pass along to people. No, I think I'm good. All right. I'm excited to be out there, so come see me.

Definitely. Is MargaretTroll.com the best place to keep up with you as far as where your next dates are? Yes, that's perfect. Track you down. All right.

We'll tell everybody to go hit your website and, yeah, come find you. Out on the road. Okay, great. Thank you. Thank you.

We're silly creatures. We'll need teachers. We've got problems. So yes, thank you to Margaret for talking with us this week. And go to margaretcho.com and check out her tour dates and go see her live while she's out on the road.

Alright, so to round things out here, we're going to play another song. What may be my favorite song on the album. The track entitled, I'm Sorry. And yeah, this being my choice, probably says a lot about me. But the song also features Andrew Bird, and that's something else you should go check out, is that the list of guest musicians she's got on this album is pretty impressive.

So the album is called Show Dependent, and I'm sure you can get it on Amazon and iTunes, and you can definitely get it directly from Margaret's website. So go there and check it out if you're interested. Again, this track is called I'm Sorry. Otherwise, that about does it. We will return next week.

Same geek time, same geek feed. Thanks for listening. Well I'm sorry I set your house on fire I am a victim of my own desire And I'm sorry I sent you that suicide letter I was gonna die but then I felt better And I'm sorry I shot you in the face. I got this. Feeling I was way off base And I'm sorry I killed a deer Only wanted you to be near.

And I sincerely apologize. My actions were unwise. And now I realize that it. Killed me when you died. Well, I'm sorry I hit you with that brick.

At least your death was fairly quick. And I thought you'd take it on the chin But it looks like rigor mortis is setting in And I hope. You weren't in too much pain I. Guess I'm criminally. Insane And I sincerely apologize.

My actions were unwise. And now I realize. They killed me when you died. Well, I shouldn't have hidden you in the attic. I guess I got a flair for the dramatic And I know your family is so bereaved I just couldn't let you leave.

And yes, I made. A big mistake. But my love for you was not fake And I just had all I could. Take So I drowned you in the lake And now they're calling for an autopsy I just wanted you to notice me. You just wouldn't love me and this.

I can't forgive. My pride was stronger. Than your will to live. Your will to live. And in food news, you've had enough to eat today.

Now here with the weather is Johnny Mountain. North Korea, everything's sunny all the time, always. Good time, beach party. Back to you, eh, Lorib? This episode is a production of Movie Meltdown, produced and edited by The Oddity Studios, with the opening music performed by The Empires.

For more on how to sponsor or support the show, email producer at moviemeltdown.com. Talk hard!