Naked Lunch (1991) — "Exterminate all rational thought."

Weird, Sir Richard, I don't think this podcast would be a good starting point to listen to uh information about William William Burrows if we didn't talk immediately about Steely Dan, the name of the band named after a h a steampunk steam power dildo from Naked Lunch, which most people don't know is where the name Steely Dan comes from. But now you did, can't unno it huh HadAM. That sentence makes me feel like I'm still watching Naked Lunch. I'm just desperately trying to figure out what's going on. Yeah, I am so unbelievably curious, both sexually and in a podcast audio form to learn what your thoughts are on this, Richard, Because on this episode of the Culture Cast, I am still your host Chris Dashoo, much to the chagrin of two people out there at least.

And if you know who you are, you can and I'm saying this play like, go fuck yourself, this is my shoe. Yeah, yeah, you can go fuck yourselves. No. Uh, And if you know who you are than you know, if you know, you know, and if you don't know, then you're probably here to listen to us talk about Naked Lunch, a movie that we were going to talk about in April, but we ran out of time because life and other things got in the way called life, and then I went on a cruise, on a Disney cruise out of San Diego, so that takes up time to go on. So we're now here ready to talk about a movie that I can only assume if you've never read the book, you're really gonna have a hard time with because yes, on this episode of the Culture Cast, this a Dendem episode, we're talking about the film based on the book of the same name, both of those films, and that both the film and the book share the same name, Naked Lunch.

When I wrote Naked Lunch, reviewers, you just couldn't say enough disgustingly whind on American trash. Well, now Hollywood has turned it into a movie and critics are chattering again. The movie mind blower of the year, Spellbinding, a stunningly surreal tour de force. I thought you were finished with doing weird stuff. I thought I was too, but I guess I'm not.

David Kronenberg's Naked Lunch rated R. I heard that it wasn't really based on the book. It was sort of based on its life, but sort of based on the book, but sort of like a very free adaptation as well. That's the yes, the correct term is there's no way to adapt a book where they talk about steam powered dildos, at least not in nineteen ninety one. I mean, wow, fair they do a lot, They do a lot, more than you would think.

But at the same time, this is also like post hell Raiser, post Possession, post films that are already pushing the envelope in terms of in terms of and even David Cronenberg like visual visually off putting films that have body horror were not unheard of at this point in nineteen fifty nine when the original book is being published. It's a very different story. But yeah, this book, I would say, is more or less unadaptable and the film has a lot and a little both at the same time to do with the original book. The book is cut up free pros. It's william S Burrows kind of at his best and if you don't like him worst, I mean, he is not for everybody, and this movie, I think is a extension of his writing.

I am a fan of william S Burrows. Just to get it out of the way here. He's one of my favorite authors. So this is why I wanted to watch this movie because I had never watched it, but I had watched all the other stuff. So I had seen the documentaries, the two documentaries that have come out, or I think there might even be more of that, but the two main ones, and then read the book, listened to the book.

Even Yeah, it's a it's a thing, so it's a very much its own thing. So Richard, I'm gonna kick it to you first, given that you were kind of shanghied into this. However, I will say, as a creative type, I think this movie is very interesting. What did you think of Naked Lunch? And what is your exposure to william S Burrows?

No exposure whatsoever. Have not read him. I'm aware of him, but. Did crazy to me? By the way.

Well, but part of it is there's a subculture in literature and film that is about mind altering substances, and Burrows as part of that, and there are others I've never been because I've never been deeply into that culture in real life. I've never been on you know, psychedelics. I'm not you know the same reason I didn't go see all the Cheach and Chong movies. I felt unqualified. I felt like I'm missing a key element that I'm gonna need to really enjoy a Cheech and chawng movie.

I'm not into pot Okay, I. Mean, I don't know. Cheachin Jong movies is so funny, like blazing saddles, right, Yeah, well it's a stone or. Western, but it's not a stoner Western. I movie is in reference to marijuana, that.

May be, but the content of the film is like the whole thing about and there's there's no, like I said, a whole subculture, sub genre of if you really like to get high. There's entire albums that are based on you need to listen to this on on weed or you need to listen to this on LSD or something and that stuff. It always it announces itself and lets you know whether you're one hundred percent invited to the party. And by the way, it's like going to a party. It's like if I'm going to a party where the whole point of the party is we're all going to blaze up and be high, and I'm not going to do that, then I'm going to be missing out on a certain aspect of that party, probably the biggest aspect.

So that's my that's my whole approach to this stuff. It may be really really super interesting if it's like, oh, yes, I know what it feels like to be on hallucinogens or on psychedelic drugs. I know that feeling of paranoia. I know that feeling of weird amped up but tamped down sexuality, and and seeing things and not knowing exactly if they are existing in physical reality or is that the one piece that doesn't fit? And why does the one piece that doesn't fit feel like it's the one that makes the most sense.

All of that stuff is fascinating to me, but since I've never been there, I always feel a little bit one foot in, one foot out in these sorts of narratives. So that's where I come to the movie. From that being said, I didn't hate it. I didn't. You can't see it.

You just did the like live thing where it's like I go up at the end, which means I'm lying. I didn't hate it. I didn't love it. You know. I started out, well, look, I started out hoping that Collen Gallagher was going to be on this podcast up.

I could just see Calvin the man all right any way to can we text him right now? Maybe get him on zoom really quick? Colin, where are you? Richard? Need help?

I thought for sure there'd be a father Malone, there'd be a somebody, and I could just sort of be like the third point of something because I'm like, I do not have a ton to say about this movie. Like I didn't even hate it enough to have that sort of energy that I brought to RV. You know, fair fair so, so you know, I went into this movie h totally like I me know, I don't know it's it's Cronenberg. I have liked a lot of Cronenberg. They're familiar actors in it.

So I was interested. I was not like, oh boy, I'm gonna hate this. I was interested, And I don't think I ever got to the point where I hated it, but I did get to that point that I feel in a lot of these kinds of movies where I'm just like, Okay, everyone at the party is high and old Richie had him sitting here on the couch looking at his watch. So that's kind of that's my broad experience. What about you like you read the book you love this guy?

Yeah, so what was your whole thing? I mean, I and what I'm asking is have you done psychedelic? So no, I have not. I've done marijuanas as they say, as the kids would say, I've done only weed and that's it. And that's I mean kind of worried.

I mean, I'm not saying right to draw the line, but I'd want to do a psychedelic that I'm in the room with someone who also has done it before to feel comfortable as opposed to is like I'm gonna do LSD by myself. Like again, that's also a huge jump. Yeah, I think anything would be like mushrooms at this point and that's probably it. What Miss Burrows, however, is using like heroin and like you know, really heavy stuff like he's he's. He's a heroin guy, right, Yeah.

Yeah, he's he's he's really going for it man, like he's not. This is not like I'm smoking dope. Like he's like, no, I'm shooting this ship up. Man. He was like a morphine and a heroin addict.

So you know, like does that stuff give you hallucinations? I guess it does. I don't know. It, does it or does it just make you really like out of it. I've never done heroin, but I wish from what i've from what I wish.

There was somewhere to get information about trug. To do said drugs and then will know just. Nothing ever gets written about, no one ever talks about it. I don't know how they do the drugs, and then all of a sudden they disappear. This guy at the end of my block, his brother, Maybe I'll ask.

Him, Yeah, this, I've seen him walking around with some needles. I think for the most part, with Burrows in my mind anyways, he is I get it, Richard, Like, I get the like this is kind of like whacked out, fucking psychedelic bullshit. Like I agree. However, what if that is the point and there is no subtext and it's just like I'm writing wild shit because I'm writing wild shit. What you say?

What say you had him? Well say you to rich Roy Scheider pulling off a woman's skin, Like what say you? Like? What if it's just weird? What if it's just weird?

And I'm just saying like, and like you said, Burrows has some there's a lot of gay. That's the other thing, the Nails Don't Lie, Baby. There's a lot of gay with Burrows. I mean his most recent film that adaptation was Queer. I mean that was an adaptation of his unfinished manuscript Queer, the film that has Daniel Craig in it.

It has kind of psychedelia as well in it, but it's a pretty straightforward narrative. But it's also gay. And this movie is kind of gay. I mean, it's gay ish. Well, it's like it's like, like, I totally get it.

It's it's the I don't know, but you could say, I don't know if william S Burrows was out, you know, in nineteen fifty nine or whatever. I don't know if he was, just like, yes, I am totally comfortable with this aspect of my personality. There's absolutely no connection between the fact that I have homosexual urges or am a homosexual and am doing heroin and and you know, having very difficult heterosexual relationships where I murder my girlfriend. It's like, why do all the heroin addicts murder their girlfriends? From Burrows to sid Vicious, It's like, don't date a guy who's doing heroin, ladies, you're gonna get murdered.

But but what about a man who's doing mugwump jism. Well, now, look I think I think, I think I just froze. A mugwump jism. I just like the term mugwump jism. I mean yeah, I mean, look, you know I could sit here in twenty twenty five and go okay.

Burrows was a guy struggling with his sexuality, you know, so he addressed those bad feelings or whatever those feelings were, if it was just frustration or guilt or you know, whatever he felt society had in store for him, and so that led to drug use, or the two went hand in hand somehow. But he was also trying to be an artist, which means that he's already starting from a liminal space. And and you know, you put all these things together and mix them up, and you you, you know, you could get someone who's going to be a very surreal an artist who you know, make surreal stuff. I don't know, I'm not articulating myself very well, none of since I don't have anywhere, there's no door for me to walk through with William Burrows.

What about the door of self? Mythologize well well and being and being a writer, you know, I mean, I guess. That's why you're here, Adam, is because you're you know, and the self mythologizing of it all. I mean, you're you're actively engaged in that and what you do for a podcast. Look, my my computer does not turn into a cockroach or a vagina or a penis as it does for Peter Weller in Naked Lunch.

But literalism and figuratism are are the tools of a writer. Yeah, I don't know. He yes, the writers self mythologize. I definitely self mythology right, my podcast and. Literally and who does that other than writers really well, film still, storytellers, ambitions, storytellers, Okay, any any artists yea, So it's so so artists.

So artists self mythologize. Yeah. So so, like, I don't know, how many doors do you have. For Burrows gay the gay door, that's the gay door, that's the back door, as. They would statue story.

Yeah, the gay door, backdoor, gay door, the gay I mean, I mean again, as a creative type obviously like yourself. And also I mean, you know there's part of it is you know, the gay pre post, right, because like there's part of the gay with william S Burrows. That's like the closet gay. And then there's the william S Burrows that's like the post closet gay. And those are two very different things because some people never get past them for and you could make the case, and I'm not making this case because I don't want to marginalize anyone, as best I can, you could make the case that's someone who is in the closet how do you?

I mean kind of hard like it's I mean, it's the same argument that's made against someone who's bisexual, like, well you're with a girl, Like how could I've literally had somebody go well you were married? How were you gay? Like what the fuck does that mean? Mike Way? Just because I said that Christ that.

Was not you had him, It was not you. But my point being when we sit and talk about the queer aspect of Burrows, like I think it really comes through in this movie because in a lot of ways, like this movie is about a man at odds with himself, whatever that means in Burrows' case, you could take it down several roads as the man at odds with himself as a creative type or as a man at odds with himself and the idea that a man who is gay is less of a man than someone who is not gay. And that's part of the message of the mugwumps, is like, you have to be suitable to being gay, and it's like what the fuck? But again, the idea of like being amenable or suitable to something somehow makes you a compromiser, possibly which makes you inherently the one who's lesser.

Yeah, And and by cloaking it in a sort of drug narrative, he allows himself to go places that he probably couldn't if he wasn't writing in that it's like, okay, so the guy gets whacked out on drugs. Therefore, if now he's having weird quote unquote weird sexual urges, there's some cover and so and so that makes it resentable to the reading public that oh, well, but all this stuff is all he's having a drug trip. So he's not really gay, he's not really talking to cockroaches, he didn't really kill his girl, whatever. The he didn't catch the bug. Yeah, the bug, I mean the bug of it.

The amount of just like bug imagery and the usage of the term bug and like, yeah, especially at this point in like nineteen ninety one, Like, I mean, again. We can all go write our college paper on this, you know, I mean, that's that'd be easier than watching the movie again is just saying lunch. I mean, guy, you know, you know, kills off his female sexual interest, goes to the inter zone where you know, homosexuality is more above board in this place, and then and then basically has weird sexual encounters with men and women and and just sort of descends further and further into a paranoid place. He's not a very okay, So I mean, I don't know, maybe we should talk about the movie and talk about Peter Weller, who is fantastic in this movie.

Yeah he's I mean he he carries the movie over the over the line with like how much of a string man he is at all times? And again like Burrows is that way like you know his he doesn't do the Burrows affectation. He doesn't do that doctor Benway shit, which like I'm glad he's not doing an impersonation, because there is that like doctor Benuey, That's who I would do. Burrows was doing that voice a lot. But I'm glad he doesn't go there because it's very much an in an evocation of Burrows, not like an impersonation, which would have gotten very old.

It's grounded in reality because in a lot of ways, what this really should remind both of us of is fear and loathing in Las Vegas, because it's Burrows, but it's not Burrows, like just like it's Hunter S. Thompson, but it's not Hunter S. Thompson like it is, but it isn't same thing here. And I mean talking about self mythologizing, Yeah, that's actually a great and the most pertinent you know, comparison. Yeah, I don't know.

I mean it's so strange because I don't typically think of Peter Weller as as like my you know, my safe, trusted narrator to bring me through. I mean, he's not Tom Hanks. It's not like, oh, as long as Peter Weller's in the movie, I can just sit back and enjoy myself. He's not that kind of actor, and yet in this he becomes that somehow. Whatever it's the position against how wild everything else is.

Yeah, it's like if you make everything else fucking crazy, suddenly Peter Weller is like, oh, well, go talk to this guy. But to your point, Burrows was always the Burrows was always interested in writing unreliable narrators. So if you have a guy whose perception, to your point, is an unreliable narrator because I don't trust him, you've already you've already won of a subconscious battle that Burrows always was doing, which was a unreliable narrator at the heart of the story. So you've got a guy who's the actor version of that. But but he he never seems he is never glib, he is never cruising through.

He's always got that. He's always peering at everything in everyone in that Peter Weller way. That is just enough of his own questioning of like what's happening to me right now? And I'm going to participate in it, but I'm not fully signing off on the reality of anything that that draws us in because that's how we feel. And for the most part, he's reacting to the stuff on screen the way we are.

He is not loving the bugs, and we're not loving the bugs. And when he takes off his shoe and smashes a bug, there's a part of us that's like, yeah, that you know, I know that's not going to solve your problem. But I think that is probably how I would react. That's my impulse, and so for better or worse, we can follow him through and there are moments where he seems just completely overcome. There's just too much happening, and he crumples in on himself and tears are flowing down his face, and we respond to that because we're like, yes, there's a part of the viewing experience that also feels like that, that feels like I just it's too much.

I can't take it anymore. But by giving him those moments and the way he portrays them, that's what kept me in this movie as long as it did. That's what made me feel like, Okay, I'm not going to check out on this thing. Testament to the man. I have a poster of him right here for a reason.

Peter Weller is he carries so many of the things that he's in and this is I mean, this really is one of them. Like this movie could have been played in such a really not unfun way, but Peter Weller, I think works again, like I'm not sure. I mean, look, we don't get a lot of William S Burrow's adaptations for a reason, because I think this is kind of it, Like, do you need anything else other than this? I don't. And to your point, Naked Lunch is the book that you see being written in the movie, nothing like.

That's the whole weird fucking thing that this has, that fear and loathing also has, which is the creation of the narrative by way of watching the narrative happen to the artist who's going to adapt the things he's seeing into a book. I guess it. We haven't seen it a lot of times. It's only been done a handful of times, which is why it doesn't feel tired, thankfully, because this could feel really tired. It hasn't been done a whole lot.

And I think it hasn't been done a whole lot because for the most part, if you buy the rights to something, you're gonna adapt it. Like everybody, I think, for the longest time talked about how Lord of the Rings was unadaptable. It's unadaptable in a different reason, for like a different way. It's too broad of a property. Yeah, this is because what the narrative is is so amorphous and fucking bizarre that it is pros it is.

It is loosely threaded together pros is really what it feels like like there's a plot sort of. But again, Burrows was known for doing cutups and just taking things and making things work, and using other people's literature as a starting point for his own stuff and cutting things out and again like that. How were you expected to adapt that? But Ronenberg, to his testament, makes it work way better than anybody could ever make it work out. It was the only way to do this as far as I'm concerned.

If you want to do like a cartoon or some sort of like animated thing where you just have like things happening and you just it's a more of a vibe, less of a plot driven kind of event or thing to enjoy. I don't know. I mean, my question is why is it? Why was this movie even made? Which is always my question, but it was clearly during a time when there there was you know, the process of getting a studio film made was we need material, right, Okay, we need tons of but we need tons of material.

We're going to develop tons of material, but we're only going to actually make you know, ten percent of it. We're just going to keep throwing material at writers and writers at material and directors at writers and directors at material, and hope that the pieces fall into place and suddenly we have something that can look like a movie. You know, Hey, Burrows is a known writer, so maybe there's a movie in there somewhere. Let's who has the Burrow stuff. Cronenberg had some juice.

He'd made The Fly, he'd made Dead Zone, he'd made Dead Ringers, and so it was like, Okay, well, this is a reliable director. People do go to his movies. He can deliver a movie. He's not crazy, so maybe this makes sense. I mean, my god, it's a beautiful movie.

I mean, they spent money on this. I don't know how much, you know, but I'm sure someone said, well, for a price, we'll do this because we know it's not going to be a hit. And it wasn't. Eighteen million dollars. Brother, this looks like this looks like a more than an eighteen million dollars testament to the director and the writer writer director, because that's the other that's the only way this movie could have gotten made is the person who wrote it has to be the person to direct it.

And to answer your question, Kubrick tried to work on a version of the movie with Brian Geeson's script, who worked with kuber Or, who worked with Burroughs a lot. They did a lot of the cut up stuff together. And so it was actually Cronenberg who wanted to make an adaptation of Naked Lunch. And that's not surprising. And you know, again, Cronenberg as a adapter of Burrows's work, also doesn't just adapt Naked Lunch.

He adapts other things. I mean, there's parts of other things in this like stuff from junkie, stuff from queer like stuff from Burrows's real life. Like we're talking about the murder shooting I guess of his real life partner, his common law wife, which actually happened, doesn't happen twice obviously, he doesn't get the opportunity to kill her again. It's used as a as a as a film device, as a narrative device, but a lot of the movies just based on william S Burrows's life, like again similarly to Fear and Loathing, like it's based loosely on the real life of someone who this character is loosely based on already. Right, and if anyone's gonna do it, Cronenberg clearly I mean, there's you know, from the body horror to the you know, dark repressed sexuality, you know, I mean all of that like that.

Especially ninety one Kronenberg. This is like Cronenberg post Video Drom and like you said, post the Fly, Like you know, I mean, this is very similar to Video Drom and has that like similar like again, like the repressed nature of things, and like there's always something lurking off to the corner, in the corner of the room. You just can't see it, you may not be able to perceive it, but it's there. Like there's a lot of that going on here too. Again, like we have the veil of the drugs in this movie and Video Drome it's the TV in this movie, it's the typewriter and I guess the bug powder.

Initially, yeah, I mean, you know, it was kind of fun actually going into this movie not knowing anything and and other than Okay, this is gonna be weird, you know, and there's a typewriter, it's like fine, you know, And and yes, I guess like you said earlier, the door I can walk through is the writer door. But writing for me has never been that kind of experience. Necessarily, I don't know what writing was for Burrows. I mean, it was probably one of the few ways he could broadcast himself in a way that felt authentic, even though he wasn't detailing or drawing direct line. It wasn't autobi he wasn't writing autobiography.

He was writing these sort of dreamlike narratives that were autobiographical, but in the only way he could really approach it. And I'm not saying that given the opportunity he would have written a very literal autobiography. He may not have. He may have preferred. Kind he kind of did with Junkie and Queer.

I mean they're kind of the same book, but they're also kind of about again Bill ye Bud, like we know who Bill Lee william S Burrows. Let me ask you, I mean, was this like when did those were these later books? Or this was so this? So Junkie comes out before this. Queer is technically an unfinished manuscript.

So this is his hit. I mean, this is the thing that makes him mentioned in the same like sentences. Is kerawhac and Ginsburg. Yeah, because look that's this. Everything else is kind of like not unimportant, but like naked Lunch is the thing that is the vehicle through which most people know anything with Burrows.

No right and and and here's the thing. It resonates because there Burrows isn't the only guy who's struggling with his homosexuality, struggling with addictions, struggling with paranoia and other emotional, you know, challenges. And that's why these books, even though they're subcultures and and sort of subgenres, continue to live and are popular because people find them. The people who need them find them, and and it speaks to them in the way it's supposed to. It's like they there are people who read Naked Lunch and they're like, yeah, I totally get this.

I have no problem with this. There are people who see the movie and go, yeah, I got I'm there emotionally, I'm there, I get it. And then there are people who simply do not, and they're on the outside kind of like me, going what am I missing? Like I see all the pieces, but I'm not seeing the assembled puzzle because the pieces just represent aspects of a personality that have to be experienced from the inside. It can't be experienced from the outside, not fully.

Well, I would again implore you once again to understand the idea of the cut up, which I think is why some of us feels so disparate, because the cutup is taking someone else's literature and just repurposing it. And if so, now what exactly you because you've mentioned it a few times, but what exactly is this? So this is so cut ups are what kind of Burrows is known for, and so he would like take a like imagine you take Uh. I'm just trying to think of an easy story to use, like the Three Little Pigs, right, you know the story Three Little Pigs. We could find a version of it pretty easily.

Imagine if I gave that to you and said Richard, in one hour, you have to take three Little Pigs, cut it apart, however, you like, put it back together in some fashion that could be seen as entertaining or something. Do something creative with the text of Three Little Pigs. That is Burrows. A that's an aspect of Burrows's writing, and Naked Lunch is part and parcel of that. It's not all that, but part of it is just like taking other people's stuff and turning it into his own thing.

But is he literally like taking passages from other novels? And they are appearing word. For word, but again not again. Word for word is a interesting phrase if you're taking them and turning the order of the words around. Sometimes it's word for words.

Sometimes he's doing the order of words. I mean, like it's. It is he's I assume he's been very upfront, like you know, it's like, oh, this is from Shakespeare, or this is from Moby dick or this is from you know, Charles Dickens or whatever kind of well, I don't know, maybe I should take a look. I mean you should. It's it's again like it it speaks to what you're talking about in terms of the disparate nature of things.

Like sometimes you're just like where is this coming from? And it's like, oh right, Like imagine newspaper clippings, but like go further, you know what I mean, Like, don't just clip it out of the newspaper. Then clip it further and do something with the newspaper clippings. It's I mean again like it's experimental writing, like he Burrows is known for his experimental writing, and then he has other stuff like Cities of Red Night are again like that's more of a book book, Like there's a plot there's a narrative, like, it's not all this, this is just really what is the entry point and what most people are known for his Naked Lunch, which is cut ups in experimental writing. But there are other books that are like book books.

He has several trilogies of books that are more narrative based, even that still use cut ups in those two mind you well, were. There was there? What would you say the equivalent technique was to represent that in the movie or was there? I don't know if you can do that in the movie, right, Like it's. I mean you could, you could, But I think.

In this day and age, like isn't that what we just have in terms of like a movie like Ready Player one just has all these other things jammed into it? Like I don't know how you do it in philm I guess you have to die else. Somehow literally just cutting things in, but you know, I don't know. But then it's like not obvious again, it's a matter of how obvious are you with what you're doing? Like mean, look, the movie was well reviewed.

People weren't We're not saying this is a total fucking mess. I don't get it. Go fuck yourself. I meane, guess you can't when when it's Burrows and sort of Cronenberg and you know up front what it's going to be, you can't use that as an argument. No, you can't say I didn't like Friday the Thirteenth because it was bloody.

Because it's a slasher movie. Right, yeah, I don't like slashers. Well you're not gonna like this, like right, that's one hut. That's the one thing you can you And you can't complain about Cheech and Chong by saying, well, it's a fucking stoner movie, a bunch of people just acting stone It's like, well, yeah, that's the point. So now that you now that you understand that if you're in a Mexican restaurant, you'll be eating Mexican food.

And if you'll order their chicken nungets, they're probably not gonna be great. Right you've you've that's the buy in. The buy in is this isn't gonna make sense and it's gonna be Ouki. You talk about this all the time. Meeting the movie at its level, you have to meet the movie at its level, like meet it at the level that it wants to meet you at, and if you refuse, if you can't even do that, If that's if you're unwilling to meet the movie at its level, you probably shouldn't watch the movie to begin with.

Like, there's some people that, like, there are some people that are going to go their entire lives without seeing Naked Lunch, And that's perfectly fine. It's not for everybody. But if you're willing to meet the movie where it's asking you to meet it, I think you can enjoy it. Again, Like, this is not a movie I would suggest everybody. If I would suggest it to anybody, The only people I would suggest it to are people that like when I talk to about it, like, oh, I really want to watch that?

Be Like, then you should, because I think someone who has an interest in watching it is priority further the dials further in their direction than someone like yourself has been shanghaied into watching it. Well, the movie that okay, two thousand and one A Space Odyssey. You know, I feel like you're in on the joke with that movie. Either I've never seen it. Oh fun, we should watch that together, dude.

That's a good one. Now. The reason I've never seen it is because half the people say it is a towering achievement. It's one of the greatest films ever made. And then the other half of the people are sort of like, yeah, it's like two thousand and one, Like what the fuck?

And I'm like, wait a second, you're friends with the people? Is it? I mean, is it a movie that doesn't make sense or that doesn't satisfy in a narrative level, or is it a movie that absolutely. Does or I answer yes. Yeah, sure, okay, you're good, I mean, and I.

Yes, you know, it's both, yes, it is. It is at the same it is both a massive achievement and it is massively disappointing because it's you know what two thousand and one reminds me of. It reminds me of going to a Michelin Star restaurant and then being like, that's it. It's like, but the point was, like, the execution is part of it, like the mastery and the execution, the technical prowess in the execution is part of it. Like I want to be I want to know enough that I can bring the right mindset to a movie so that I'm not blindside because there are times when your expectations of what a movie is or what you think it's going to be is so far off for some reason, and then you go see it and you're like, I rated it, and then later having lived through the realization of what the movie actually is and your own disappointment, that if you ever go back to it, you're going back to it with a complete opposite point of view, which is now I have all the information I didn't have before.

I know what it is, and now instead of being really excited with the wrong expectations, my expectations could not be lower because my last experience with this movie was terrible and typically when that happens, a person goes oh. But on second viewing it was actually much better and I actually saw what other people said about the movie or whatever that thing is. So yes, expectation has a lot to do with it. You know what and what you want from it. So in the case of Naked Lunch, I didn't.

I think I knew what it was going to be and it was My only problem was that isn't something I typically want from a movie. Right again, I mean I found a lot to enjoy. I found that I loved the music, Howard Shore's score. Yeah, right, But I mean, hey, Cronenberg and Howard Shore go together like peanut Butter and Jelly. I mean his score Fords Fly is amazing.

Yeah yeah, yeah yeah, But I mean, of course I enjoy The Fly on a completely different level than this movie. I mean, the Fly is like, oh. This is about the bug, baby. It's about the bug. But it's like it's locked into a very traditional narrative, super traditional genre execution.

So it's like, Okay, I'm just I'm just sitting back eating popcorn and enjoying a movie with characters that I understand in relationships that I understand, even though with science fiction great this I was sort of like, okay, I don't I'm I'm eating the best version of food I don't care for, so I will politely finish my meal and go home and not be a schmuck. Wow. So that was That's what I ate for lunch, A naked lunch, sad lunch. I was eating a whole bowl ass earlier. Today.

It's like, how do you know, here's the problem with the movie like this. How do you evaluate certain things. It's like Judy Davis, I'm gonna say her performance was great, but I don't really know if it. Was and there is no base there's no baseline. Great, you know, Julian Sands, sure, Like, what how do you direct a movie like this?

That's the other thing. How do you act a movie like this? How do you know when you're nailing it? How do you know when you when Cronerberg goes cut, that's perfect? Look what is he thinking?

And how would he possibly communicate it? Unless everyone on set is a huge Naked Lunch fan and understands it and appreciates it in exactly the same way, which, frankly, I don't think people do. I think people who a book like that, look, a book like The Shining, everyone enjoys it the same way a book like Naked Lunch. I don't know. The people probably like it for all kinds of reasons.

Yeah, I mean it is pretty erotic. You know, Yes, it is, like, yeah, I believe, not a way that gives me a boner, not that kind of but it's erotic. It's erotic, al right. It puts the E in erotic. I know.

Obviously I was kind of I had my concerns picking this movie for us to watch, And my concern is the one that you kind of have alluded to and talked about several times now, which is I almost didn't want to have someone who is a Burroughs fan on here, because what's it gonna be like just two guys being like, yeah, this is great, Yeah, this is great. Well, but it probably should have been because then you listen to this is gonna be a book. But oh well, I listen. All I do is listen to podcasts about naked Lunch. Well yeah, well hold on a second.

That's I don't know what to say about that. So that's a difference under the next Yeah, I guess. So please stay on this one for more than just one episode on Naked Lunch. Please. No, I don't want to sit in an echo chamber of people just saying yeah, this is great, like and again, like it's not a matter if it's good or bad.

Like in a lot of ways, I'm not sure anybody in this day and age is gonna go out of their way, Like, how do people even make decisions on watching things anymore? Richard? I don't even know, Like I couldn't even fucking tell you, Like. You know, I think it is the way it always has them, which is, there are the super predator consumers, the mega consumers, the whales. Yeah, the people who watch everything.

The friend of yours who has seen everything, knows all the music, knows all the movies, knows all. Get the Marvel wright all thirty questions, give me the medal already. But they love everything. I mean, if they love Marvel, they also love you know, everything else that is. I thought you were going to make an opportunity to make like a really all blue joke.

If they love Marvel, they pri also love children. Continued Well, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, Greg. What's his name, Greg Kira? Who's the guy who Greg? What's his name?

Who made who made the movie? Who made that movie? Brian? Or are you talking about Brian Singer? No?

Who's the Oh god, okay, hot, all this this all now it's just people going, No, it's. That guy who's the kick Diddler? Move off. Okay, forget forget it, forget it. Forget Catholic Richard, what did you say?

Just point being the the mega consumer watches everything and then enthusiastically recommends things and discern, yes, discerning, okay, has a taste that you understand, the friend who you understand. It's like, I know what they like, I know what they recommend, and they're usually right, and so they'll just go, oh, you gotta go see you got to see this. And it can be very it can be Barbie, it can be fast and the furious. But if that person is also like, oh but this other, you know, severance is also great. Based on that, you'll do it.

Like my son, Dashel, I think, is a person who has people like that in his life and then he consumes things. But I don't think Dashel is a person who who consumes things that have not been that have not run through someone else's process first, you know, it would have no meaning for him. He wants He's very into his friends, and so he's not going to be the one going I am the pioneer who went out into the artistic you know, uh frontier, and and I'm bringing back what you might enjoy. Here are my wares. Right, So he's not his dad, No, Yeah, And I was sort of that way, but but I wasn't.

I wasn't the biggest, you know, influencer. I mean, I don't know why I'm not just saying it influencers. I think you were though, right, you were, but you weren't. But you were like we buy. Think I think anybody different.

I think anybody doing something like this in this day and age has to at least give themselves a little credit for enjoying things enough for people to listen, or at least trust right, because it's a trust you. Okay, but see now, now we're doing it. That's what we're doing. People who listen to your show, because you cover a lot of current stuff, will go naked Lunch. I think I've heard of that, my dad watched that or something, and then they might listen.

So I was conceived that this. Is how people find things. Now it's there's those people may not be their friends, but those people have podcasts or TikTok feeds or instagrams or YouTube, all of a parasocial relationship exactly. And and and they stake their their territory and they say, we're gonna do a you know, YouTube podcast, whatever about you know genre, geeky genre, film, science fiction, horror, all that kind of stuff. Hey, I love that stuff.

I'll check them out. And then maybe they mentioned a movie you've never heard of, so you go check it out. That's how people find naked Lunch, now, Okay, that's because that's the only way you can. And it's still a little bit self directed because you choose the podcasts you're listening to. True, But beyond that, you know, you know, people who need naked lunch are going to find.

It, right, Yeah, yeah, I And I can think of two things wrong with that title. That's the funny, that's the gag, that's the gag from the Simpsons on naked Lunch and they impart and all them go see it. And I can think of at least two things wrong with that title, which I think probably would be the problem I would run into with most people if I suggested naked lunch to them, is there's not enough nakedness and there's definitely no lunch eating, at least not of the food variety. Yeah, you know, it's just something you know, to not to get meta in the creation of the podcast world. But given that we're talking about naked lunch, maybe it's a tad apropos to get a little meta.

I mean, one would even ask how do I pick the movies that we do these goddamn episodes on, Like, how do you pick the movies? I gave you an opportunity last year to program an entire month and you just went, I want to do Christmas movies. I guarantee you if I give you another month, you'll pick something else. And you did. It's coming up.

Yeah, And that's my point. Like, but that's my point, like when when you look at things like this, it does take a little bit of like, well, I want to give it to the people that have opinions on things that I trust, but also opinions on things that are going to maybe push me to watch things I wouldn't watch otherwise. And that's again a different that's a different thing that some people have no interest in as creators. Some creators don't want to grow collaboratively. They want to grow singularly, which is also perfectly fine.

I'm not sure that's singular growth is uh what's the word, uh, realistic in the long term, more fun. I find this to be a lot. I mean, there's some people that are like, I only want to do this, and I want to do this and I want to control this and this is my thing, and like I get it. I'm not well most. Look, I'm not interested.

People who do those sorts of podcasts, I'm one of them. Are people who are like I have a take on a on this you know bunch of stuff, and I would like to explain my take to you. Like the guy Andrew Picky who does the history of rock music and you know, five hundred songs. You know, there's no he's not engaged in conversation with anyone. He's like this week I'm talking about and I'm using this track to talk about the Rolling Stones or the Beach Boys or whatever, and so and I kind of do the same thing most people don't.

Most people do it like this in a in a conversation forum. But you know, the other thing is, yeah, I've come I've watched so many movies for this podcast. But also that, but also this is the one hundred percent what you're talking about doing one hundred percent of the work. This is fifty percent of the work here, even if it's not fifty percent of the time work like me and you doing an episode together is fifty percent of the work because I show up one hundred percent prepared knowing that I'll be contributing fifty percent of the conversation. Right exactly.

And also and we're not you know, we're it's not a film history podcast, No, there's I don't think the film appreciation podcast. Right, No, but you you critical analysis. I don't know you're not doing five minutes on Okay, here's the studio that released it, here's the year, here are the other movies. Here's the safe You can't even say star ratings or anything like we gave that out. I gave that up, I think before I met you, Like, I don't even want to be engaged in that kind of bullshit.

Right Like, if you want that information, you can go on IMBB and you can or Wikipedia and very quickly sort of contextualize the film. And now you're just hearing people talk about the experience of watching it ninety nine times out of one hundred. My approach to anything that we have watched is from a structuralist point of view and from a writer point of view. And I will judge a movie in that way, and I'll say, I think this movie works really well because it is structured well and written well and then acted and directed well. But that all serves the narrative.

And if I do not like a movie, it's typically because I can see what they were trying to do and I can see where they failed. So if the movie is a comedy, but it's not funny enough. Here's probably why it's not that funny. Here's probably where it fell down. Or if this is supposed to be a thriller and it's not that thrilling, here's why that I can do this.

Of course, I was never gonna do that. I was never gonna come to this movie and go, this is a terrible movie because it makes no narrative sense. Because of course that was never the point. It makes no narrative sense. Right, So don't drink alcohol, and Nick's not expect to get drunk like I don't.

Yeah, you you know, And I'm not a complete fucking idiot. I do truss some to things and not only understand what it is they're trying to do, but also acknowledge my ability to appreciate it or even evaluate. Remember that movie we did, this is one of my favorite ones. It was like it was called The Handmaiden or the Maiden or something. It was the old Korean film.

Yeah, what was that called? It was like the Handmaid's Tale or the Handmaids. It wasn't the Handmaid's It was something like that, right, but it was close, right, right, And it. Was about it was either the Korean movie and it was about the young woman going to work in the house, and then it was about sexual abuse, and then it was about the handmaiden. Is just what it was called handmaiden.

Okay, there you go. Yeah, but then that. Goes in in sixteen by Park Chen Wuk. Two white guys are just floundering around. Well, I know it's about it's about this erotic relationship between these two women in Korea in another you know, one hundred years ago, like like, there was no cultural real.

And it was based on British and it was based on like a British book as well, like a Welsh book, and they turned it from a Japanese like a Welsh thing to a Japanese things. So we really didn't have any frame of reference, like. I mean, I mean, we really And yet it was a great movie, and I think everyone who was talking about it got it and and appreciated it for what it was. But I remember there was that point where I'm like, well, now four white guys are going to talk about this this movie, and it's like but but you know, we came at it as film lovers and people with cultural sensitivities and interests in naked women. Oh god, s either I did it, Yeah, he did it.

But uh, but but it was. It was one of those where I'm like, God, do I have any like, how do I even begin talking about this? And yet I think we got I think that was a good episode. I think we kind of nailed it. I would agree with you.

I don't know how I feel about this episode. Are you only going to release. This or I am going to release this? I you know, like I think I think what's interesting Richard is self mythologizing is something that you are like engaged, Like we're all engaged in. But like when I think of like successful self mythologizing, you come to mind.

You put your name on your show, like your name is I mean, what a fucking oh, what a fucking tool this guy is? Am I right, fuck somebody who has a lot of confidence and their ability to be entertaining. Because as far as I'm concerned, if I go listen to his show and I don't know who he is before I clicked on it, if I know who he is by the end of the show and I'm willing to listen to the next episode, that's a success and you're pretty successful. It's like, look, you can call yourself Prince, or you can call yourself the artist formerly known as Prince. If first your Prince.

Yeah, you can get away with whatever you want as long as people acknowledge you as Prince. As long as people acknowledge you as. Then do whatever the fuck you want. But I'm not Prince. When your nickname is so good, you force the other guy who's not as good as you to make a nickname not as good as yours, which is who was Prince?

He was the Prince of pop. Why did Michael Jackson then have to be the King of pop because Prince had already taken the title. So yeah, okay, bye. I look, I think you know the ability to self mythologize and really pretend. I mean, look like William S Burrows shot and killed the woman that he was living with, right, yeah, I mean that's feels like, Look, it's bad, it's really bad, yes, but he and he's mythologizing it into it.

But it's like, but it's bad at Like, here's the thing. I'm not gonna argue. I argue with me, adam it. What's crazy is like he uses it as the self mythologizing inflection point for his entire life. Yeah, which is in a really crass way.

You know. It's like, you know, I never would have become a writer if I hadn't murdered my girlfriend. It's like, oh, well, thank god, thank god you murdered her, or we wouldn't have, you know, naked lunch, junkie and queer. I'm not really mocking him, look. But he's kind of mocking himself in a way.

Like I get I don't know, I don't know, and it's like, and I don't. I'm not one of these guys who's going to spell like I love the sex best. I'm not going to spend ten seconds trying to explain or defend Sid Vicious Nancy Spongeen and their relationship and what really happened to her. I don't know. But if a junkie accidentally murders someone, no one is surprised.

That's what happens. It's terrible, but it's not shocking. It's like, okay, so what it sounds like is Burrows was completely wasted on something and then something happened, and then someone's dead, and that's a fucking tragedy. It's horrible. Clearly this guy was a tortured soul and writing was one of the ways he tried to self medicate.

Well that in the drugs. That's another Hey, that's another good way of self maning. That's why were comedians Me and You. Richard had him. The comedic timing is priceless.

All right. To speak to the craft of the movie, what did you think of outside of Peter Weller, everybody else, including the so obvious Ginsburg and Cara wax Sand hints. Oh, is that who those two guys? Those guys are supposed to be? Yeah, I am, I'm assuming it was very obvious by the Ginsburg one.

The Kera whac one was also kind of obvious. I felt like two very anachronistic, all three anachronistic looking fellows, like you know. From from the moment the movie started, from the opening credits. The level of artistic you know, uh, devotion, the aesthetic of the movie. I loved it.

I was totally drawn in. The movie is photographed beautifully. I love the costumes, I love the sets, I love the colors. I mean, there was so much visually that I loved about this, and so much that that you want to sync into and relax into. But you can't, and and if that was intentional, it's genius because you you do want to embrace this sort of this luscious, sumptuous color palette and text and performances.

But the minute you do, there's a cockroach or a centipede or a creature crawling out or oozing out of a typewriter in scuttling across the floor, and then your the revulsion, the physical revulsion is there. I think there's a true will made movie. I think there's honestly two other people that could have made this film. We've talked about Terry Gilliam already with fear and loathing. I would float that maybe in an alternate universe, David Lynch made something Naked Lunch, made something out of Naked Lunch like that.

That would require, again, it requires the person involved to have the interest in making it. And David Lynch, for the most part only ever seemed interested in making his own things, which I completely understand. But man, would it have been something to have him adapt Naked Lunch Because Cronenberg's adaptation's wild, and it's very wild in a specific way. But I wonder if David Lynch's Naked Lunch would have just been just insane, like I mean, you know, a racer head and all the because you think of when I think of like a director who sometimes directs about the seeing the weird shit at the peripheries but not in front of you, Blue Velvet, Lost Highway, Dave both, David Lynch joints like those are things that I think of, like and again, like Naked Lunch, if it's a pure adaptation of Naked Lunch, he might have been able to do that.

I mean again, Cronenberg could nobody could adapt it straightforward, which is what the statement always was. I mean, maybe David Lynch could have I don't know, again, like a tall order all the way around. And then if it was today, if it was like, oh this is gonna happen in twenty twenty five, maybe a guy like Guillermo del Toro or Luca Guadanino. Yeah, the guy did the Suspirit, the Suspiria remake, which is like again yeah pretty. I mean he's doing the remake of American Psycho like he seems open to doing.

I mean, I guess Naked Lunch is genre fair. I mean I think it fits for people into genre fair, but I mean I think it's again kind of its own. What's huge, what's funny? Though, Like like the I would say the homosexuality of subplot, weirdly was the most dated, right, that was the one that felt like, oh that that is that it is being treated as such a taboo, that that that yes in ninety one, sure, but certainly in twenty twenty five, that just doesn't feel like something that would be treated in the way that it was treated in this film, which is like, what's this all about, you know? And how is this a part of this guy's internal struggle?

Well, and that's why I would say anyone who sat and listened to this episode to bring this full circle, and I would thank Richard this maybe if you're interested on going in a further journey on your own, if you're interested in furthering your William S Burrow's appreciation. But having to go, I think less esoteric than this movie is go check out Queer from like you know this past year. It's directed by Luca Guadaninhos stars Daniel Craig. Pretty straightforward movie. I mean, it takes a lot of the themes of naked lunch and the homosexual aspect of it, and really it's just more about that there is some kind of esoterica, but it's very light esoterica that's I think more acceptable for a wider group of people, which I think, you know.

Yeah, no, that's so weird that I don't know that I've even heard of this. Yeah, it came out last year. It has Daniel Craig in it, and Daniel Craig is great. He's not doing he's doing an evocation, not an impersonation. And again it's a fine movie.

I think for most people it's more approachable than Naked Lunch, and you know, it's imminently more findable. I think it's easier to find it because I think it's like on most, if not all, of those like made like Apple and all those things, have access to rent or watch it. So it's pretty good. And it has Daniel Craig, so most people are amenable to Daniel Craig. Because of you know, the James Bond connection.

There are going to be less and less people every year that go Peter Weller. You mean RoboCop and Karu bons High Well, I mean. It's funny. What are the other Peter Weller movies that are like, oh, you should see this Peter Weller is the star. Of Bonzai and RoboCop, but those.

Were all before this, Like I know, were there no like signature performances past this. I kind of feel like I'd like to see I'd like to see what he did after these three. Heves in Dexter, but he like he was in Star Trek Into Darkness. Oh boy, he was in I mean, I don't know. I think Peter Weller's big.

You mean, shouldn't he have been in thirty movies? I mean he was in a fair amount of things, but I don't think that they were ever Just looking over the list, and none of it is the order, the order. I saw that movie that's a heat Ledger movie where he plays like a Catholic priest. That was kind of fun. None of these, I mean, none of these are like fun.

Yeah, none of you right, none of these are I mean, none of these are particularly he was on a US, he'son a Dexter. He did a lot of TV for a while, he directed a lot of stuff. He went to college and became like I want to say, like a PhD in like ancient Roman art or something. He's yeah, Peter Weller, he's like doctor Peter Weller. Now, did you see the robocoppa documentary?

Uh? It's a four part documentary. Oh yeah about RoboCop. Is it how many hours? Or each part?

Or each part at least two hours long? An hour plus? Okay? Cool? So it's pretty long.

Mess. Yeah, it's pretty long, and you would not like I like it and respect RoboCop, but I wouldn't put it in my you know, it's like, oh my god, that is a seminal movie for me. But that I was still in. I wanted to watch the documentary and it's been years since I've seen the original RoboCop. And it's the best.

You've got to watch it. Peter Weller is a weird cat. He has a PhD from UCLA in Italian Renaissance art history. Good for you know what? Good for him?

For him? You know what, he doesn't have to do what I want. He should do what he wants exactly. And you know what, he used acting as a platfor to become a PhD in Italian Renaissance art. What the fuck right?

Because you can't you can't get into that program unless you've you've headlined a couple of you got to be number one on the call for unless you've been RoboCop, right, They're not gonna let just any stupid kid from the Midwest. And it's like, well, can can we check out your IMBBW. Right, show me your CV. You were RoboCop? You imagine that dissertation defense were correct?

Wait to say, Peter's like like. Robo vin diesel God, I just. Want to see the face on the people he had to defend his ton in there. It's like, you've got to have some sort of film cred, right, you know. I get, I guarantee you.

When they looked at they were like, we're just gonna let him through because he's RoboCop. We don't want to be known as the people that when he came up with his dissertation they turned RoboCop away, right, I mean it seems like a double edged sword here, Like I've just can you imagine Peter Weller being like, well, this fucking group of PhDs they really didn't want me to have my PhD. I think it was because I was RoboCop. What mister, mister Weller, you're late to class again. Yeah, this doesn't have anything to do with the RoboCop of it all, does it.

No? Never not at all. Oh god, it's because he's uh, because he played williams Perros. That must must be whened it? Uh.

Final thoughts on Naked Lunch, Richard, Well, I. Can't recommend it fair. I don't know anyone who I need to point to this movie. Don't think it's a bad movie. I think it's well done.

It's it's a it's a it's a food that is not my favorite food. So eating it was not an unmitigated pleasure. But that doesn't mean it's a bad movie. Yeah. I enjoyed it, but I also know that, you know, like you said, I'm not sure I'll use the a flun analogy.

There are plenty of people that live in the Midwest that don't eat sushi. I'm not going to take him those sushi restaurant there you go. You know, I'm not going to suggest this to someone who goes I don't like movies that don't make any sense, like, well, let me, I got some funds shit to sell you. It's some wild shit. Yeah, you know, I think this movie is not for everybody.

I think to your point, similar to the other movies I covered in April, Eh, you know, there for me which is fine. I think this is the least approachable of the things I talked about Midsummer probably being the most approachable. And hey, you know, you could do worse than watching a movie with the North Texas alum because Peter Weller and I went to the same college, which is wild, until he went and got his PhD from UCLA. He went to the University of North Texas, which is crazy because I don't even think they mentioned that he went there. So until then, where could people find you, Richard and the things that you work on with your name on them.

They can find me at Richard Adam's Paranormal Bookshelf. That's my podcast. Wherever you get your podcasts. Check it out. It's everything's in the title.

If you like any of those things on over and check it out. I'm not sure you would find anything other than your podcast if you searched for your name. So I know, well, unless you know you find this. If you do, we'll scroll down a little bit. Not at the top.

We pay good money for that top of the SEO charts, baby A. Yeah. No. Similarly, you can find me and the things that I work on at Weirdingwaymedia dot com, where this show and all the other shows that I work on can be found other than Patreon, where Richard and I do it James Bond podcast once a month with our friend Mike White, and we are nearing the end of that podcast. Shockingly, we're like two thirds of the way done, which is nuts.

So we'll be finishing that and wrapping that up. But if you want to hear it from the beginning, Patreon dot com, slash Culture Cast and then or Projection Booth for that matter. Richard, thanks so much for joining me and being a good sport, as it were my pleasure. Man. I always try to be a good sport.

And as always, we'll catch on the next episode. Seve