Rings of Power S2E2 Recap: "Where the Stars are Strange"

Welcome back to the Podcast of Power. I'm your host, Mike White. Joining me, of course, is Mr. Chris Dashew. I prefer to be called the stranger, and I'm looking for Rune.

Ride to Rune. Is that what he says? I always thought he said ride for ruin, like R-U-I-N, which I never understood. It must be Rune. Okay.

Ride for Rune. Ride for Rune. You're going to trill the R when you're. Talking about Rune. Ruffles have ridges.

Yes. We are talking about the second episode of the second season of The Lords of... The Lords. The Lord of the Rings. The Rings of Power.

This one is Where the Stars Are Strange. This one was directed by Charlotte Bronstorm and Louise Hooper and written by Jason Cahill. Came out August 29th, 2024. We're kind of re-picking up the pieces from the first season. We are moving to our Dwarven friends.

I didn't really get this when I was watching the episode the first time, that there is a big earthquake in Khazad-dûm. That's where we kind of open everything. And I... didn't realize that the earthquake was from Mount Doom going off. So I just thought there was an earthquake. But here we are.

This is the first we're seeing the dwarfs since that happened. Right. Yeah. Kind of makes sense. Yeah.

Yeah, it does. I love the opening to this show, by the way. I actually think the opening of this show is really well done. I know we didn't mention it last time, and maybe we mentioned it last season, but I love the opening for this show with the rings of power and certain things being represented in that grain, I think, or the, I guess, stone and sand and other things. But back more to the point of the dwarves, I kind of missed seeing the dwarves last episode because I was I remember enjoying the dwarves a fair amount in the first season when we watched it then.

And I enjoyed them in the first season when I was rewatching it. But. I missed seeing the dwarves because I really, I don't know. They are similar to Gandalf, like another emotional core for the show. Like they're two very easy characters to get invested in.

And we know that the dwarves are in a dire situation. Well, and it's somewhat a situation of their own making. I mean, I had forgotten until I did my rewatch of the first season that just what a Lady Macbeth character, Disa, was starting to turn into. Just that whole, like, ah, yeah, your father's old. He's out of touch.

And, you know, maybe you should think about, you know, taking some power. And I was like, oh, okay. So you're just pouring poison into his ear. Great. Great.

Thank you. Well, I feel like some of that was also because they were trying to convince the audience that she was Sauron. Right. Oh, yeah. There was definitely a lot of who is Sauron in that first season.

It's like the who shot J.R. With Sauron. It was actually Maggie the whole time. Right. Well, and that's for me, like, that's probably why the first season in my kind of feelings is like, it's good, but I'm already enjoying the second season more because the show doesn't have to play some of that nonsense from that first season.

Like, who is Hal Brand? It's like, well, it's fucking Sauron. We know now. And we know now. And it was easy in that first season to do that because we didn't know any of these characters other than Gandalf. clearly, or again, possibly Gandalf and Elrond and Galadriel.

So now I'm just, I don't know, I'm resonating a lot more with this show than I did the first time. Also want to point out, writer of this episode, Jason Cahill, wrote three episodes of The Sopranos. Oh, nice. And is an EP on this show. So this is the second episode out of two that starts with, well, in the very early stages of the episode, starts with a dream sequence.

Yeah. Because in the last one, we had Gandalf or the Stranger imagining finding his staff. And in this one, we've got Galadriel having a vision of Celebrimbor being basically turned into a tree. I thought it was going to go into an evil dead type situation and the tree was going to rape him. But no, he just kind of turns into a tree a little bit.

Turns into a tree kind of effigy, the way her brother is a tree effigy. Yeah, kind of a little Han Solo frozen in carbonite as well, as far as the facial expression. You'll be forever preserved, Celebrimbor. And if you've played Shadows of Middle-Earth, the video game, the Lord of the Rings video game, Celebrimbor is the kind of spirit that possesses your character. And when you climb to the top of high towers to open up parts of the map, kella brimbor's spirit kind of hops out of you and like pounds on an anvil so it's always very funny to see him like in this knowing that like he he is the architect of the downfall of middle earth and gladriel is already like externalizing that somewhat and seeing that he's going to be put in effigy but probably for the wrong reason possibly.

Right exactly i mean i do like towards the end of this um episode where Sauron is talking to him and saying, like, oh, you will be known as the Lord of the Rings. And I'm like, not really. That is going to be probably you, sir. Well, trying to be anyways. Trying to be.

And yeah, I think Celebrimbor's name is probably cursed in Middle-earth. At least I would, because he is that architect, like you're saying. Yeah, I just, Celebrimbor is not a character who is seen as anything other than a someone who is easily manipulated because, you know, he wanted something so bad. Because, you know, his father, Feanor, was a great craftsman of his own right, and he was the one who actually made the Silmaril. So, I mean, imagine that being your father.

That's Kill a Brimbor for you. So... He is kind of, you know, living in the shadow of his father, and that is partially what I'm assuming will motivate him to become more and more a pawn of Sauron, because that scene at the end of this episode is pretty, just, you know, to jump ahead for a moment, is pretty great, because you can see immediately how easily this guy is going to be manipulated by Sauron. Like, Sauron's barely even having to try, frankly. Oh, yeah.

No, everybody in this whole But especially the elves. It's just like, I mean, there's the Celebrimbor. He's at another, you know, your princess is in another castle. He's in another castle. He really, the only message he has is one from Galadriel saying, do not truck with this guy.

If you see this guy, do not ever speak with him. Really, it should have been, if you see this guy, murder him. But they don't go there. So Sauron shows up at the front gates. They're like, yeah, yeah, we're not going to see you.

Go away. and he just hangs out there, and then Celebrimbor has this person that helps him out, and she keeps going down and is like, hey, hit the road. It kind of reminds me of the recruitment scene in Fight Club. It's like, okay, here comes Jared Leto. He's going to hang out on the porch until they actually let him inside, to the point where even it starts to rain. It's just like, okay, come inside, Sauron.

All right. But I don't even know. Did she tell him that he saw Ron? Because he still calls him Halbrand through this whole thing. There was a messenger sent by her that got killed.

Oh, with the great hard cut, it felt very family guy to me. It's like, oh, the messenger's on the way. And then cut, and you see this person being dragged through the forest, and you see a dead horse and another dead elf. I'm like, okay, messengers didn't make it. Here's...

Here's a Rosencrantz and Guildenstern right here for you. Yeah, no, that's, I mean, that's Galadriel told him not to communicate with Halbrand, but then the second message of who he was never got to him. So, you know, the, you know, many spies have many eyes and that, you know, I wanted to mention it in the first episode and I figured I'll mention it now, now that we're kind of seeing more of what Sauron is doing. Sauron controls everything in the space that he's in. I mean, that ship that gets attacked by that monster in the first episode that we see in the first episode of the second season he's doing that like he is causing that to happen he's controlling it like he's in controlling it in one way or another either baiting it into attacking or controlling it directly and that for me is like again it's just Sauron can be as powerful or as weak as he wants to be within the bounds of the reality that he's in because he can't control other people unless they allow him to willingly is clearly clearly Is the kind of message of the Lord of the Rings as a story is like, you know, one of at least the story of this show is, you know, the easily manipulated are easily manipulated by those who manipulate easily.

Like that's he manipulates so easily the people that are willing to be manipulated. like Galadriel Celebrimbor you know there's so many more coming down the pipeline that I can think of in terms of just where this history of Lord of the Rings goes and then just to go back to Lord of the Rings the movie with Saruman like Saruman sides with Sauron because he's vulnerable and weak Gladriel is not eventually like you mentioned in the first episode, eventually. Well, yeah. And, uh, you know, Soran had their, sorry, Saruman had that, um, uh, Palantir. And we saw one of those revealed at the, I think it was the final episode of the last season. That woman in Numenor has one of those.

Right. So it's like, okay, already we're seeing. And yeah, he just tells Soran tells everybody what they want to hear. Like, We're talking about Celebrimbor. Eventually, Celebrimbor opens the door, lets him come on in.

And yeah, he's just like, oh, you can finally get out of your father's shadow. Wouldn't that be nice? It's like, all right, you know exactly what's going to move these people. You have that knowledge, and you're going to use it against everybody. You appeal to everyone's worst instincts.

Even Even if it comes to like, oh, well, we're going to help save the men of the Southlands and we're going to do this and we're going to do that. But no, it's all part of his master plan. I loved, sorry, going back to that first episode as well. The one human guy who's helping out Sauron, you know, unbeknownst to him that he's Sauron. And he's just like, you know.

And Sorin's just like, what about people that do bad versus good and all this? And the guy's like, oh, it's a choice you make every single day. You wake up and you have to decide to be good. The struggle's real. I do the same thing.

But I loved when the thing crashes down on him and Sorin has a choice. Do I help this guy? No, I snatch the thing off of this guy's neck and now people will think that I'm a king of old. Yeah. I, uh, you know, I, I think to the, to the point that you're making, like those who are capable of immense cruelty are also capable of immense good.

And it's that opportunity or the perception of the opportunity of both that, you know, it is a choice. And I don't think people should be, you know, applauded for choosing good over evil because you should just not choose evil. You shouldn't have to be applauded for not choosing evil, but in, you know, I guess in this day and age, even in Middle Earth, Sauron, I don't know, maybe Sauron just wasn't loved enough as an old god. I don't know. But he's very much always choosing evil and always being a nasty, nasty manipulator of everyone.

He is, yeah. Yeah. I love it, though. Like I said, I love this character because it's just there wasn't really a villain in the Lord of the Rings. Like Saruman, OK, but it's so interesting to get Lord of the Rings with a what I would consider to be straight up protagonist and antagonist.

Like we had one for several protagonists in the movies, granted. But I think there's, make the case for like three protagonists in this show, but one genuine antagonist in the show. And the series as a whole hasn't really had that. Even Smaug wasn't that. But when Smaug was in those movies, he was great.

So I don't know. Like I just, I'm applauding the show for actually doing something that the movies never did, which was lean into an actual villain, like a real tried and true antagonist. Like, oh, we have Sauron for real. What's interesting, going back to those Hobbit movies, I would say the biggest villain of those movies is the main dwarf. Oh, Azog.

No, no, not Azog. I said the main dwarf. Oh, Thor and Oakenship. Yeah, just because he, just like these people, he was being manipulated. He had that lust for gold and was not able to escape it and you know, that made it very frustrating.

Just kind of like with this episode, I'm getting a little frustrated by people being so easily duped. And it's like, I can understand, but it's going to be a little painful for me to watch this and just see these people continuously like, oh, sure. Come on in, Soran. I don't know who you are. I don't recognize this and I don't recognize that I'm being manipulated.

I mean, but that is his game. You know, he is, I think I said in the last episode, he's the Lord of Lies, you know, and he knows how to wrap everybody around his finger, sometimes literally. I believe he's actually the Lord of Gift. Oh, really? He's from Valar.

I think he's the spiciest meme lord. I just love that he has to go full, like, God presentation for, for Celebrimbor to believe it. But I mean, again, if you look at, you know, Western religion, you hear people all the time, you know, I saw, I saw the Archangel Michael. I saw the face of God, like, kella brimbor has now seen god like a god proof of gods in his studio his like craftsman workshop like i don't know i i can see why he would think what he's doing is the right thing but yeah to your point it's just like when you watch apollo 13 you just want to tell him like don't stir the tanks right don't do it just don't do it like don't sup with Saruman like you don't or your Sauron, I guess. Don't do any of that.

But like, again, if you don't know, I guess that's the thing. Like, if you don't know, be careful who you trust. You know, you don't get that scene in the show. It's like, be careful who you trust. And then five episodes later. you should never have trusted me.

Like, okay. Right, exactly, yeah. Okay, very, what is the character that, the villain in the third Indiana Jones movie, it's very much that, like, don't trust anybody, including me. Like, okay, whatever, fine. I don't know, maybe we'll get, I mean, we're gonna get that at some point, clearly, because I don't know if it'll be this season, but at some point, Caleb Rimbaugh is gonna figure out what happens, I'm assuming, and we'll get to see that.

But, you know, the buildup to it, I think, is so fun, because... Sauron is just such a piece of shit. He's just the worst. He really is just the worst. Yeah.

Yeah. And yeah, like you said, having to go full God mode, not only does it go full God mode, which was interesting because I kept wondering, is that Sauron on the poster for season two? You know, I talked in the last episode that it was kind of a media blackout just because Nobody was talking about this show, which was great for us because four years, the two years after this episode dropped or, you know, close to two years, I don't know anything that's going on. The only thing I saw from this entire season was the poster. And I'm like, is that Sauron?

But he's got the long blonde hair. And I think that's what threw me when. we were talking about the opening of the first episode when I see a guy who looks like Sauron, but he's not the actor and he's got long hair. And I'm just like, is that him? What am I seeing? Not realizing that it was a flashback.

So here we have, yeah, when he goes, disappears from the room, all the fires go out. I really appreciated that. And then boom, this big fire in the fireplace. And then it turns into like, it looks like Celebrimbor is looking at heaven and And here comes Sauron walking towards him. It looks like he's got a halo over his head and he's now got this long blonde hair.

And does he have elf ears? Yeah. It looked like he had elf ears. Okay. Yeah.

All right. Well, that's because Sauron is from the Val. Well, Sauron is an elf. Essentially, he's like a fallen elf. Dark elf.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, in a way, I mean, it's more formless than that. But yeah, I mean, that's yes, that is Sauron on the poster. Right.

Well, I think what's smart in that first episode is it prepares the audience to see him as this other character now. Yes. And that it's the same guy. Right. I can't say it's a bait and switch, but it was definitely like a nice bluff for us.

Yeah. And Charlie Vickers is great as Sauron. Like I think he's one of my favorite parts of the show. I mean, the show has a lot of really great acting. It has a lot of really great writing and it has a lot of, we didn't really talk about it last episode, but I'm going to mention it.

A lot of good production design. Oh yeah. I, you know what? Like, I know there's a lot of CGI being used, but I also think there's not a lot of CGI being used when it's like sets. I think a lot of these sets are real sets that they've built.

And yes, there's clearly parts of it. Like, you know, back in this corner, there's this huge open area, like clearly not real, but it does feel more like Peter Jackson than those Hobbit. Yeah. Which was Hobbit movies. I think the worst thing about them is the usage of the CGI over usage of the CG.

Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we haven't seen any characters bopping around in barrels on the sides of rivers or anything, thank goodness. No, I think we saw the CGI warg last episode, and that was fine. You know, a lot of where in Khazad-dum, a lot of that is CGI because, you know, it's inside of a mountain.

But then when you get like the smaller sets in Khazad-dum, they look really good. Like I, I really, I really love the settings, the distinct and unique settings of each of kind of where the main characters are, because it helps, it helps keep the storyline straight. That was one of the things in Game of Thrones that like, you've got all these just fucking white people running around in all these vaguely vaguely distinct places you know what i mean and this one it's like most everywhere looks very distinct and the people that are in those places if they're even people at all look very distinct as well you know the dwarves are very exaggerated features the elves are not you know and then the harfoot are i would the only thing i would say is they're very cute they're cutesy you know beautiful even i guess it would say Markella Kavanaugh's case.

Both of those show proud for both of their toys. Oh yeah. No, they're both adorable and casting her as, as Nori, super smart because she's got those same, kind of Elijah Wood eyes. You know, she can make her eyes really big and just, you know, like there's a part in this episode where they're being stalked by more than one now of those people with the skull face masks. And she and Poppy are hiding out.

And at one point she looks up and it's just like, my God, her eyes are so big. Yeah. So it was nice with that. And also this kind of continuation of the stranger slash Gandalf question mark. thinking about the staff and everything, and at one point he does find what looks like it's the staff from his dream, and he uses that against these riders, and I think I screwed up. So I screwed up last episode.

I was talking about Karen Hines, and I didn't realize it was from this episode, so shame on me. I think he was not in the first episode, but it seems like he should have. Yeah, well, he's listed in the credits, so... When I saw him in the credits, I screwed it up and was just like, oh, okay, yeah, he's in there. But yeah, this is the one with the witch lady coming back, the butterflies.

Again, it's very smart to watch what happened previously in these episodes, just because they will set you up, like good shows do, to remind you of things that you really will be called on directly in this episode. So they showed us again the the destruction of those three witches. They showed us more of Durin and Disa. So here we are back with these characters now. And yeah, poor Disa.

So we've talked about the earthquake, how it really wrecks Khazad-Dun. And then we have Disa and two of these other stone singers trying to commune with the mountain, and it doesn't work. And I think King Durin says... what, for nine centuries, we've relied on these stone singers to talk to the mountain, and now the mountain won't talk back to them. So it's this, again, really bad omen for things that are going to happen. Almost like there's a bane of Durin.

What might be Durin's bane? Maybe his son, who still won't apologize, and he won't apologize to his son, his now disgraced son, Prince Durin, Durin IV, who is working in the mines, getting blisters on his hands, not doing princely work, but being a real pain in the ass to the other dwarves when they show up and are like, oh, getting some blisters, doing some hard work, huh? And he's like, bite your fucking finger off to the knuckle. I like I said, I really love the dwarf characters in this show. I think for me, the dwarfs are outside of Sauron, you know, and just for him being such a weird character for this series and franchise to have in it.

I I'm so glad we get to see more of the dwarfs because those feel like the characters we didn't get to see a whole lot of in the Lord of the Rings. Yes, we saw a lot of them in the Hobbit, but just too much. Yeah. I don't know. Like, that's what I don't know.

Like, I don't know. When I rewatched the Hobbits, the Hobbit characters are not bad. Like the dwarf characters in the Hobbit aren't bad. It's just, there are too many, but that's the narrative. So you can't do anything about that.

But because there are so many, there's only in the movie version, there's only like three that really get any characterization and that's about it. Yeah. And no offense, but I don't give a shit about Bard, like that whole thing. And, all the stuff with the Lord of Lake Town and stuff. Oh, my God.

The worst part of that fucking, that's the worst thing in all of Lord of the Rings is Stephen fucking Fry. Who I love. Yeah, same. I absolutely love Stephen Fry. My God.

And then Alfred, Alfred as well. Jesus. Jesus Christ. I hope that fan edit takes that shit out. I think it does.

Talk about more stuff added for no goddamn good reason. Yeah, I could even handle the werewolf guy and all that stuff. I couldn't handle... I mean, I didn't really need to have the elf back in that movie. I just didn't need to have Legolas, especially when he runs upstairs that are falling.

And it just is like that worst CGI nightmare. It's worse than when he... jumps onto the Oliphant. Yeah. Which is saying something. Took place like a decade earlier.

Right, yeah. It's like, why are the special effects worse here? Well, because there's just so much of it. And that's, you know, to go back to the show, like the show just, the special effects in the show don't feel as, they don't feel as overdone and overwrought. No, no, they don't.

I mean, it feels like they're on a volume a lot of times, like when they're, you know, there's a sailing scene in one episode and I was just like, okay, they're probably on a volume. But that's okay. The sets where there's one point where Elrond is talking with... Oh god, why am I blanking on the guy's name? The third person that has the ring that starts with a C.

Círdan. Círdan, yeah. And Círdan, break me the fuck out, because I'm just like, who the hell is this guy? And then you see at one point he wipes some shaving cream off of his face, and I'm just like, oh yeah, I really haven't seen any... elves with beards but he was one of them that had a beard and then he's like well now i'm clean shaven i'm like okay now you're throwing me off because now you look like a lot of the other elves but okay i guess i'll deal with this but yeah he's talking with him and i'm like okay i don't know what kind of set they're on if this is an actual location it probably isn't but maybe it is it looks damn good wherever they're whatever they're doing with this stuff looks great.

Yeah, you know, I will say also to your point just now, the budget of the show is on the screen. Oh, yeah, absolutely. As we know, as we spoke about, you know, many moons ago when we first started talking about the show, this is the most expensive show ever made. Yeah. And you know what it feels like?

This doesn't, I will say, like, this doesn't feel like The Mandalorian. This feels like episodes of a Lord of the Rings movie broken up into a TV show. Right, right. And I know how much of a pain in the ass that movie was, that movie franchise was to make. So this show has got to be in that same level of just like a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot of work.

And it does not feel like a CGI mess the way I was expecting it to, the way I did expect it to with The Hobbit and the way it could have been because it's just very easy to lean into it. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I really like this whole scene that I was just talking about with those two elves and just Elrond's just like, man, you know, aren't you afraid of what's going on? You know, there's evil in these rings and, you know, here's the other dude just like, oh, I'm going to put my hand in this water and all these fish are going to come to me.

Like, isn't this cool? I'm just like, you're just showing off, dickhead. Like, you know, dude. In Sauron's hands, this would be evil. But for me, I'm just doing good.

That's why the rings have to remain in the hands of the elves. And they're already getting so jealous about this stuff. And I'm like, okay, you're probably going to flip your fucking lid if they start making rings for dwarves and men in this world. And yeah, I don't think it's all hunky-dory. Because that was always the thing I got from the opening of Fellowship was... oh yeah, well, we made these three rings here and these five rings here and these nine rings here.

Yeah, it was all great. And it's like, no, no, like just the staging of this stuff. And I, I was very, um, not shocked, but I was just like, oh, that's kind of interesting when Sauron is talking with Celebrimbor and he's just like, yeah, we got to make some rings for men. I thought for sure they were going to go talk to the dwarves just because of the, the Mithril. But then it's like, no, no, we need to make rings for men now.

And I'm, And of course, the first thing that came out of my mouth was, I don't really do rings for men. I just do rings for women. It's like those designers on Project Runway where they're like, I've never designed for a man before, or I've never designed for a plus-size model before. I've never designed for a Dark Lord before. Yes, yes.

So what do you think? Should we continue with the gem theme? Like, is that something? Should we do something a little, I don't know, less frilly, maybe? I don't know.

Well, I love that what we know about the One Ring is that it is the least gaudy of all of them. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I remember a great meme where it was they throw the ring into the fire and get it out, that whole scene from Fellowship. And what does it say?

Does it have any words? And Frodo looks inside and he sees it says, live, laugh, love inside of it and goes, oh, just some sort of basic white bitch. It's so funny because that ring is so not what these rings that we're seeing so far. Even the one that Cure Dawn is wearing, that has this giant stone in it, and it's so, I don't know, it looks like a powerful ring. And then when you see the actual, like, the ring of power, it is so not that.

And I think that that's, I don't know, I just find that to be such an interesting contrast because, again, this show is really all about... I guess contrasting the way people are acting in the face of immense danger I mean immense danger because you know and that's the thing I love about Elrond as a character Elrond understands that more than anyone else does I know and he's like Cassandra no one will listen to him exactly he thought it was Galadriel but it's actually him like he's Cassandra and what's funny is we don't see enough of that in the movies of him being so fucking bitter and angry because how many times has he been right come on isildur throw it into the fires. Right exactly i was totally thinking that yeah i was like.

God damn it like. Mm-hmm mm-hmm Yeah, poor guy, man. He knows. No wonder he's so hesitant to do certain things in the Lord of the Rings movies. He's just like, I've been burned before, man.

And I'm surprised he trusts Galadriel at all. It's probably a good reason why she's in one elven realm and he's in another. Just keep that bitch away from me. Yeah, he's having none of her shit. None of her shit whatsoever.

Círdan was in the Lord of the Rings movies. He doesn't have any lines, but he's at, I want to say he's at the battle where they destroy Sauron at the beginning of the first movie, and then he goes to Valinor at the end of the third, because he's there in both scenes. All right. But he doesn't have the same reaction that Celebrimbor does. Yeah, yeah.

I always thought that it was, you know, help me out, is it Celebron, the husband of Galadriel? I always thought he was the guy that got the third ring for whatever reason, but apparently not, unless he gets it later on. Because in this universe, we still think that he's dead, but he's back in the movies. Am I completely wrong? No, I think you're right.

Yeah. Yeah. He's played by somebody familiar, and I remember somebody being like, oh, you want to talk about a useless character? What about Galadriel's husband? And I'm like, yeah, that's fine.

Isn't he the guy that's played by the father of one of the two guys from the Flight of the Conchords? Not Jermaine, but the other one? Is he? No. No?

No. Because I know Jermaine shows up in the Hobbit movies. Not Jermaine, the other guy who. Well, he plays Figwit in the original Lord of the Rings, which is like a character that technically doesn't have a name, but is given a name in just like, I would say like the fan lore. I'm trying to remember what the name of that character is from the first Lord of.

The Rings movie. You know who I'm talking about, right? Galadriel's husband. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I forget what his character's name is.

It's another C that is pronounced with a hard C. Because I know she talks about him, I think, two... Celeborn. Celeborn. Okay, Jesus, these names are going to run together.

But at least he's dead, quote unquote, right now. Yeah, well, he's like lost in the war or something. Right. Right. But he comes back.

He has to, because these are all the stories in these can't break from what we've already seen. So, cause again, yeah. It's that, well, I don't want to say it's a problem since this is probably what much more well thought out than the star star Wars prequels. Oh yeah. But it's that it doesn't suffer from that prequel problem of, you know, well, how'd they get this and how'd they get, Oh, there's C3PO.

Oh, I didn't know that, that Anakin built him and, all right, well, why does he not know who Darth Vader is later on and all those kind of things? How does he not know who Anakin Skywalker is when he fucking built him? This leans right into it. This just acknowledges it more or less outright. And I appreciate this series a lot more than most of the Star Wars things I've seen because, yes, there are some things in this show that are like, oh, is that Gandalf or not?

But this isn't like, oh, and then Luke Skywalker showed up. This show has to have those characters in it. It can't just... I mean, there are some characters that are created full, like full cloth from nothing, but there are a lot of characters that we've seen before in other things. And I think that's a good thing, frankly, like, because again, to your point, like it could, it could not work in the show's favor, but I think it really does in helping just give people that have never seen this before a grounding in something that they can go watch immediately to understand why this is so important for the kind of franchise and fandom writ large.

Well, you're saying in the last episode, yeah, the idea of the stranger and these two hobbits is very similar to Sam and Frodo and them hanging out with Gandalf and stuff. Okay, great. But I kind of appreciate that it was hobbits that helped him, or Harfoots that helped him, and that he can then recognize throughout the rest of his life, however many thousands of years he lives, that these unexpected things You know, these tiny, like the smallest people in all of Middle Earth are the ones that really get shit done. Much to everyone's bemusement. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. They just think, oh, yeah, these little guys, they're not going to do anything. But yeah, they're the ones that really kind of run the whole show. And no, and nobody believes Gandalf. Maybe that's the weird thing is like nobody believes Gandalf.

And Gandalf's like, well, I've been saying it this whole time. Mm hmm. Yeah. Who's the one? Who's the one that steps up? at that council of Elrond and says, I'll do it.

I'll take the ring. He's the only one who isn't there like, oh, let's destroy it. Let's do this. Let's do that. Let's fight about this.

Why don't we wear it? You know, all these kinds of things, just like, I'll do it. And that moment, that look on Ian McKellen's face is always just the pain, but the knowledge. I just, that's one of my favorite moments in all of Lord of the Rings. And to your point, the thing that I really appreciate is that through line starts here.

You think it starts in The Hobbit, but it actually starts here. And this actually, in my mind, kind of robs those Hobbit movies of, I guess, what makes even those good parts of that Hobbit movie good, which is leaning into the things from the original series better. that are fun and i like that this series is actually doing that better than the hobbit i i i mean those hobbit movies are just not they're not worth revisiting because they are just trying to retread the first three movies and this show is not trying to do that and where it where it does it's more successful than the hobbit was and i mentioned on the last episode by the way that there was going to be another lord of the rings thing with stephen colbert That Stephen Colbert thing is that Futurance project, the one that's taking place 14 years after the end of The Return of the King.

And he's writing it with his son and Philippa Boyens, which is just fucking insane, frankly. I don't know. If you're Stephen Colbert, what is that like? Just like. Oh, God, yeah.

I mean, you can't work with Tolkien, but as far as a lot of people are concerned, you're pretty close in terms of the visual version of Lord of the Rings that so many people are familiar with. Well, is that going to be also Jackson directing it? I think he's producing it anyways. Okay. I'm not sure they have a director yet.

Yeah, okay. I mean, they're probably... If Philippa Boyens is involved, do you think it's not making it across Jackson's... And Fran Walsh's combined desk. They're sending him an email with a PDF attachment for sure.

Yeah. Check this out. Here's our, here's our, here's our latest endeavor. Here's our latest thing. Like here's our, and it's just like, nope, nope.

Yes. Nope. Maybe Peter Jackson actually gets things done on like George R. R. Martin.

So we might actually see this movie in the next century. Yeah. Well, no, I mean, I was complaining last episode of just how stuck he is in this Lord of the Rings thing. The other thing he's doing are these digital projects around the Beatles and the World War I stuff. Those are interesting.

I just kind of wish he would get back to doing some more narrative stuff. Well, I think the thing that cracks me up is the stuff that I love that's Peter Jackson is not any of that. I mean, the thing that I love of his is The Frightener. That's my favorite Peter Jackson thing, period. It's my favorite movie he's done.

It's my favorite universe he's crafted. Cause like he crafted the Lord of the Rings universe, but he didn't craft it as much as shepherd it on screen. Like I've read the books as I'm sure you have that the book series is richer than the movies ever could hope to be. But the book series is so good at creating that universe that someone who is as minded as, peter jackson was could take it and turn it into a really immense thing but i i'm with you like when you said that on the last episode i gave it some thought and i would respond now by saying peter jackson reminds me a lot of james cameron he's just kind of like stuck seemingly doing one thing i will say i'm more interested to see what peter jackson's gonna do with that one thing than anything remotely that James Cameron has to do with the world of Avatar, which, for a lot of people, is their Lord of the Rings.

Oh, yeah. It is. A whole lot of Chinese people. Well, yeah, and Americans as well. I mean, I know people are doing themed weddings and stuff, but then there's also Americans and other people from all over the world going to New Zealand and doing the Hobbit tour.

I mean, I have a co-worker who that was her vacation last year in December. Her folks rented a place in New Zealand. She and her husband and kids went down to visit the folks, and they're just like, fuck yeah, we're doing the whole Hobbit tour. There's pictures of her in Hobbiton in the Shire. I'm just like, that's pretty awesome.

I'm pretty jealous. I guess my comment about the Chinese is just Avatar is a wildly successful franchise in China, more so than it ever has been in the United States. Lord of the Rings feels universal. Like it came out of New Zealand, but it feels like a universal franchise. I like Avatar just never had those moments, but the creators feel the same in terms of their like unwillingness or inability to get the fuck away from those things.

Because, man, I would love to see another James Cameron thing to the level of an Aliens or T2, just like I'd love to see another Peter Jackson thing to the level of the Frighteners or even a Dead Alive. But, you know, that that doesn't seem to be in the cards now, does it? I guess. No, no. Did I hear that they're finally releasing like Dead Alive, Meet the Feebles and Bad Taste all on Blu-ray now?

No. Yeah, something about Jackson redoing that or being involved with that, which is exciting. I mean, I think it's a step in the right direction, but it's going to take a lot more steps and it's going to take a lot more time than just remastering your movies. It'll be nice that there will hopefully be higher quality versions that we can have our grubby little hands on. But I, like you have already alluded to, would love for Peter Jackson to just be back to doing original narrative stuff.

Oh, yeah. Not involved with Lord of the Rings. I would love to make sure that there's a really good version of having the creatures out there. I think that's probably my favorite of his. Obviously not the lovely bones.

Oh my God. Right. I always forget about that. Well, yeah, that was a weird one off. I mean, that book was so popular and I read it and I was just like, this is kind of garbage.

And then I watched the movie and it was also kind of garbage. Well, and that's the thing about Peter Jackson. I think he's really good when he works on things he's really good at working on, like original stuff or specific kinds of adaptations. But yeah, Lovely Bones, not it. Don't forget he also directed that King Kong movie.

Yeah, no, I definitely remember that because I was just talking about that with an author the other day, so. Yeah, it's like that, lovely bones, and everything Lord of the Rings. And I yearn for a day where Peter Jackson gets back to doing something as compelling as Heavenly Creatures or Frighteners or... even the high points of lord of the rings and maybe maybe that's that stephen colbert project who knows but for me right now the best version of the lord of the rings that you can watch that isn't just the movies is this tv show like this second episode's great i i'm so invested in where the show is going and that's primarily because of how good the show is but also because it does feel so part and parcel with the movies that it's like oh okay so this is something that kind of at one point or alluded to or we see like a snippet of and it's like we get to see more of that.

And for someone who's a huge fan of Lord of the Rings, it's exciting to see those things finally on the screen. Yeah. It doesn't feel like a step down for being on television. No, no. And these episodes are very well paced.

I mean, I really, I like the kind of false ending that we're given with this episode where we have the um well we've got the reveal of uh the new sauron who's called what is he like anatar anatar the lord of gifts so that's appealing to uh kelebren boar and then we've got the little um more discussion of the elves and just like more of like you said uh the cassandra complex happening here with with um elrond And then we fade to black and I thought the episode was over. And then we fade back up again and we see a messenger deliver something to Durin IV. Hey, it's from Celebrimbor. Come on over. We want to meet with you.

And I'm just like, okay, here we go. Here's where we get the whole, you've got all this Mithril. And the last time we saw that Mithril, don't forget, folks, we traveled down and down and down all those shafts of the Mithril area. following that leaf, the leaf from the famous tree of the elves, all the way down until it hits the ground and sets itself on fire because there's the Balrog right there. And every single time, I think, you know, the dwarves dug too deep. That is Durin's Bane waiting for Durin.

That is the Bane of Durin. Yep. Yep. I, I, I remembered that from the first season before I rewatched that first season. Cause I remember how compelling that little snippet was.

And now we see like, this is, it's, this is where the payoff is coming. Like, this is going to be that moment where it's, You know, like we've talked about before, like there were all these moments where things could have gone differently. And, you know, this is a happy story in the end because Sauron will be defeated eventually. We saw that at the beginning of the Lord of the Rings. We see Isildur at the beginning of Lord of the Rings cut the ring off of Sauron's hand.

We've seen it happen, but we know that it has to get really dark and awful. And this is, again, that kind of one step further towards the void of like, now the dwarves are going to be roped into this. Like, oh God, like... And, you know, it's just going to plunge Middle Earth into darkness in a way that I don't think anyone in Middle Earth is prepared. And I'm curious as a fan of both the novels and the show, how quickly this is going to fall apart.

Because again, to your point, I'm so glad we have no spoilers for this show. Like we're going into this blind because like, I don't know where this season ends and I don't know where the third season picks up. So... if it's going to be a super slow burn or if it's going to be super quick, I want to say if memory serves, this is a 10 year deal. It's five seasons, I want to say. And they've been pretty on track so far.

One season every two years, like clockwork even. So I want to say they had like a structured plan because we talked about it a fair amount on the first season of how many seasons and everything they're going to do of this show so they're on track i mean you know 2026 two years after 2024 which was two years after 2022 like they're chugging right along but i just don't know the narrative wise how long it takes for some of these things to happen because like any good television show they're really because of the mixed amount of narratives they're really getting a lot of mileage out of like we haven't seen new menorah yet this season we're next episodes. The third seat, the third episode, like we still haven't seen the new menorians yet.

Like that, I think speaks to how many storylines there are in this show. They're balancing a lot. And I really appreciate that. Cause I feel like in those, the first season we would hop, you know, cause there's essentially, what would you say? Like four main storylines.

I mean, the new menorians kind of tie in with the, I don't know, not really. Like the menorians of their own thing now. Right. Yeah. And, and, I mean, you've got Isildur is with that.

But Isildur, last I remember, he was lost after Mordor, after Mount Doom went off. So it's like, all right. So we haven't seen Isildur. We haven't seen, yeah, the Numenoreans, who most of them are back at the island. And I want to say with that, the last time we saw them, they were pulling into the harbor and saw the black sails because the king had just died.

So our princess, our now blind princess, will be now king. Or, sorry, Queen. And then the woman who I was talking about, the Palantir, like, she's still hanging around. And also that guy with, like, the big beard who kind of looks like a dark wizard. Right, that looks like Karen Hines.

Yeah, yeah. So now we have all of these, yeah, the storylines that we haven't seen. So, well, Sildur, also the elf, and the woman, Bronwyn, I think her name is, and Theo, her son. So, like. Haven't seen those guys at all either.

So, yeah, I'm very curious. I imagine that for sure is going to be the third episode. Will they come back to any of these other storylines or will we just deal with those storylines? I mean, I like that we are pretty much dedicating each one of these episodes like two major ideas and then moving the pieces a little bit with other stuff. I would say from the sounds of it, there are six storylines because they're doing two per episode.

And and I because I mean, again, like the third episode, I feel like is going to resolve two storylines we have not seen. Because best I remember, like you said, Theo and his mom are doing something and the elf is also doing something. And then again, because I mean, again, I've seen the last season, but I just offhand don't remember anything. But all the other things are like, yeah, we haven't seen the Numenoreans. We haven't seen them at all.

And that was a huge part of that first season. So yeah, it's wild that the show is getting this much mileage out of it. But I think it's for the best. Like it's actually taking time to build these worlds and build these characters and give us a reason to care about these characters. And yeah, I'm excited for when we get back to some of the storylines.

But I'm also excited to see some of the storylines we haven't seen since the end of the first season. Yeah, and it's like, I don't remember if it was this episode or last week when we talked about this, if you had mentioned, because I know you had mentioned, like, the Empire Strikes Back. And that is very much, I think that's a really apt comparison, because it does feel like, if not this whole season, this whole series, but especially this season, feels like we are really slipping into darkness. Because we know, you know, at some point there's going to be more rings for more people, more people are going to be losing their souls as we go throughout this. Things aren't going to be bright and sunny at the end, because I don't know if we're going to end in three, four, five, ten years from now, saying... all right, here's the big battle, you know, like cast it into the fire, that kind of stuff or not, you know, like, where's this going to end?

But it's probably not going to be on a happy note. It'll probably be on a hopeful note though. They'll probably be a little at the end to remind us that, yeah, the hobbits are still here and they're going to help us out eventually, but it's not going to be a good place. We are definitely not, Moving into a much darker realm where Sauron is really flexing. Yeah, no, it's I assume that the show will end somewhere around the battle at the, you know, at at the Pelennor.

I guess not Pelennor fields because that's where the one takes place at the end of the third movie. The one that they end up that Frodo and Sam and Gollum go through in the second movie. I assume that this will end with Sauron losing there. But who knows? Because to your point, like they they have so much room and runway, they could do whatever they want.

I mean, there are thousands of years in the past. So exactly. Yeah. It's like if we were talking about a series that had ramifications on modern day stuff that some of the series took place in the year 500. It's like, holy shit.

That's a long time. And I don't want to kick those prequels while they're already down, but I was expecting those prequels of Star Wars to take place a few thousand years before the events of Star Wars, at least hundreds of years before. Not, like, 30 years beforehand. I don't know how old Anakin is at the end of that last movie, at the end of Revenge of the Sith. And I also didn't expect the next series to take place, you know, what, 20 years?

However old Ben Solo is? Like, okay, guys, you know, and this whole fucking thing, the whole prequels and sequels are all just following one fucking family, following the Skywalker family. You know, but even, like, You know, like Bray adopts the name at the end. I'm just like, oh my God, like there are other stories to tell. That's why I liked the Mandalorian so much when that started was, thank God, I don't see Luke Skywalker in these stories.

And then who shows up? And I was like, oh, for fuck's sake. I'm like, just give me stories without the Skywalkers. That's all I'm looking for. Well, and that was always, for me, that was the shame of Star Wars as well.

It's like, why do you need to sit in this 100-year span? Like, you're telling me that this universe that George Lucas crafted that then the fans really ran with has no more interesting parts to it than a 100-year span? Get out of here. Get out of here. When I was a little kid, Chris, so this is like 1978, 79 or something.

Like, that was... Lucas, well, he lies a lot. Lies like a rug. But he was... At one point, it was kind of revealed to the fans, like, oh, I have plans for more of these movies.

In fact, I have plans for, depending on what you read, it was nine or 12 movies. And he said, all the way back then, he goes, the only three characters that are going to show up in all of these movies, Chewbacca and the two droids. Because Chewbacca can live like hundreds of years, and the droids are immortal, basically. So just look for them. They were going to be our only... story points that we could get.

Now, with something like Lord of the Rings, of course, we're talking about Elrond and Galadriel and Gandalf, potentially, that can live thousands of years. And that's an interesting thing that we're able to have these stories with some familiar characters, a lot of familiar names that we've heard dropped over the time, but we aren't beholden to okay, it's another time that Legolas is going to show up. I mean, that's kind of what ruined The Hobbit for me. It's like, I don't need Legolas in this story. It's just, it's Bilbo Baggins' story.

Great. Gandalf shows up. That's terrific. But I don't need all of these other people. Just give me this Hobbit story.

And I was surprised, like, what they, I think they mentioned Aragorn. They mentioned Gimli. Like here's a picture of my kid. This is a picture of my kid. And I need you to go find this ranger.

You'll his, he goes by many names, but you will find him as Aragorn. You will find him as Strider. Like, okay. It's very ham fisted in a mid to late two thousands sequel prequel way. Like, We'll call you Solo.

Like, oh. My God. If my eyes could roll into the back of my head any harder, they would, and I'd be able to see my fucking brain. I mean, that's why Andor stands out, right? Because at least the first season, I had to watch the second season.

Like, okay, here's Mon Motha. That's the only person I know from the whole fucking Star Wars movies. And like, yeah, I know there's Rogue One and blah, blah, blah. I don't give a shit about Rogue One. I found it very interesting watching this character who wasn't a fucking Skywalker, who wasn't tied into all this horse shit.

I don't understand what the obsession with the Skywalkers is. That is such a small box to play in. If they had approached me to direct a Star Wars movie, they're like, would you want to do something in the Skywalker world or anywhere else? I'd be like, fucking anywhere else. I don't care.

Luke Skywalker's not even the most interesting character in those stories. For most of it, Luke Skywalker is just kind of there. And so that's the thing about Lord of the Rings. The Lord of the Rings, the characters that are interesting are given plenty of time. They're actually given plenty of time.

They are interesting. And this show, I think, is showing that there are still plenty of stories to be told that, yes, affect the greater narrative of the Rings of Power and the greater conflict that's been taking place throughout the world of Lord of the Rings. But you can also tell a story that doesn't necessarily have to have, you know, all of the trappings and bullshit of a proper prequel show or movie or what have you. Well, I am looking forward to coming back. Next month.

Sorry. I'm looking forward to coming back next week and continuing our discussion and looking at the third episode of the second season called The Eagle and the Scepter. Like I said before, we really know nothing about these episodes. So the only thing I know from this is that on IMDb, these first two episodes are listed as top rated episodes. The next two aren't, so I'm curious if there's going to be a drop-off in the next episode, or if we're just in for some different stories, which I'm fine.

I'm curious to see where we are at with some of these other characters. There's not any one particular character, I almost said a particular Theo, but at least Theo kind of gets his head out of his ass in that first season, so... Otherwise, I was just ready to throw him in the fire. Yeah, I thought when you were saying Theo, you were doing like a Cosby show reference. Theo!

Theo! Theo! Yeah, Theo. I remember Theo. Theo is unintentionally part of the reason that Mount Doom explodes.

Exactly, yeah. So that was fun. Well, at least he feels guilty about it, so I was glad for that. It was funny that he was getting counseled by Galadriel, who now I think is probably the worst person to give you counsel in the world. Yeah, no kidding.

It's funny how much I hate Galadriel right now, even though later on, when she's Cate Blanchett, she's perfect to me. Yeah, well, I mean, Galadriel's... energy is perfect for what Cate Blanchett can do. So I'm with you. I think, I think, and I think Morfydd Clark is actually pretty good as Galadriel. It's just same with Michael Imperioli and the Sopranos.

Like, I just don't like your character. Like, I just don't like you because you are kind of like the weakest willed of them all, but we know that you won't be like, right. Eventually you won't be. Yes. There will have to be a change and we know what's going to necessitate that change.

So. All right, Chris. Well, until we come back next month, where can people find, Sorry. Until we come back next week, where can people find you and all your fine stuff? Well, do you want me to just plug for both of us?

Cause you had, please do. Okay. Yeah, that works. Okay. Uh, yeah, you can find everything that you and I work on over weirdingwaymedia.com where every little podcast that I work on and you work on can be found.

But more importantly, things that we don't work on can be found over there like fulmentary's, Feminine Critique, 80s TV Ladies, Midnight Viewing, all those things can be found there as well. But also, if you want to hear a podcast that we do once a month, ad-free, a month early, head on over to mine and Mike's Patreons, patreon.com slash projectionbooth and patreon.com slash culturecast, where that show, Never Tell Me the Odds, a Harrison Ford podcast, can be found. So yeah, I think if you're looking for the things that we work on, those are the two places to find it. So...